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Old 12-04-2001, 09:26 AM   #26
Edward
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Quote:
Originally posted by PeterR

Well that is a strange comment. I've trained for several years in Japan and see as much value in Ahmad's post as your own.

If your partner is near your own level or doing reasonable for his own the best training is just repeditive execution of the waza (establishing the rythm). If your kohei needs help talk, if your sempai thinks you need help listen.
Thanks for your comment, Peter. What I meant is that the japanese, being more refined than other nationalities, have very subtle ways to show what you are doing wrong without speaking a single word. That's better than interrepting your training with a dissertation about the phylosophical importance of the technique, because by the time the Sempai finishes his lecture, the training of this technique would be finished and Sensei will demonstrate another one. I would like to illustrate my point of view with an example of something which occured tonight at my training. Sensei gave us a new version of Katatetori Shihonage. I was practicing with a 4th Dan who studied several years in Japan. Even though I thought I was doing fine, my Sempai found that there are ways to improve my technique. He did not open his mouth. When it was his turn to execute, he did very slowly, emphasizing the points that he thought I was doing wrong. And I understood. I am not a moron, you know. After I followed his silent directions, he started resisting slightly my technique in order to test it. And it was fine. Now this is what I call valuable teaching.
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Old 12-04-2001, 10:59 AM   #27
Johan Tibell
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Quote:
Originally posted by Speireag
On this latter point, I have sometimes had a senior student "jam" me, and then offer instruction. Even though I generally did learn something from it, I do see Sensei's point; if possible, the student should always figure it out for him/herself. That way, the student learns it more thoroughly and intimately than if it's simply told and the student gets enough of a superficial understanding to make the movement work in that particular case.

-Speireag.
All too often students resist nage's techniques in ways which are not "correct" just because they "know" their way is correct and as long as you don't do the technique their way they resist. Often resisting this way makes you vunerable to atemi or other techniques. One thing comes to mind, keeping your elbows straight (lock the elbow joint) when resisting morotedori kokyu-ho, if nage wanted he/she could simply grab beneath uke's elbows and pull and brake the joint. Of course I don't want to do that sort of things and think people should realize that they're doing it wrong, unfortuneatly many people don't.

Regards,

Johan Tibell
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Old 12-04-2001, 11:01 AM   #28
Johan Tibell
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Quote:
Originally posted by [Censored]

If you make a comment on your partner's technique, they have the choice to consider or ignore that comment. If you keep your mouth shut, you've given them no choice.

People who want to learn on their own, generally do not take a class.
Every been to Japan? They teach by showing and then doing (at least in Iwama).

Regards,

Johan Tibell
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Old 12-04-2001, 11:17 AM   #29
Johan Tibell
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Wink

At 6th kyu I knew how to do ikkyu so after that point I was able to teach others to do it...

At 5th I really knew how to do ikkyu so at 5th kyu I should be able to teach it right?
I mean I was pretty sure during a month or so I knew how to do it...

At 4th kyu...

At 3rd kyu...

And so on.

Do you all get my point? Before you teach someone you have to be very sure you're doing it right or you will just hurt their training...

Regards,

Johan Tibell
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Old 12-04-2001, 11:31 AM   #30
PeterR
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by Edward
What I meant is that the japanese, being more refined than other nationalities, have very subtle ways to show what you are doing wrong without speaking a single word. That's better than interrepting your training with a dissertation about the phylosophical importance of the technique, because by the time the Sempai finishes his lecture, the training of this technique would be finished and Sensei will demonstrate another one.
Point taken Edward and I agree completely. I only add that even in Japan you can get stuck with a sempai with more mouth than knowledge although this particular creature is far more common in the west.

I think it needs to be learned how and when to help and correct. Sometimes its best just to let the rythm take your kohei on the path of self discovery (poetic huh). If you have to correct the best thing is to choose one or two points and leave the rest for another time. What the talkers fail to realize is that they are loosing their own practice time.

I was a bit harsh in my earlier comment - it sounded like Ahmed was being shut down with the old - well I studied in Japan. Reading your response I am sure you did not mean it that way.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 12-04-2001, 12:06 PM   #31
Edward
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No problem, Peter. I probably didn't explain myself sufficiently the first time.
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Old 12-06-2001, 02:59 AM   #32
Abasan
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Too true, I have not been to Japan to train yet. Hopefully in the future though, even if its just to see Iwama the Hellish Dojo as my sempai describes it.

Sure, Edward... a sempai who can correct your mistakes without words are wonderful creatures. They are rare though. And most Kohai are not as independant as you and may find themselves frustrated by improper techniques.

But then again, different situations call for diffent strategies. So there's probably a time to speak and a time to keep quiet.

Johan though raises an interesting point. However, as someone has already said, when do we actually stop being a student? Never... we continuously learn and unlearn throughout our lives. If you wait till perfection before doing something, you won't do anything at all. I'm not saying we should rush out and start teaching at 6th,5th or 4th kyu. But if we are sure of a technique, our role should be to correct a beginners obvious mistakes. Not teach. Leave the teaching to the pros.

Draw strength from stillness. Learn to act without acting. And never underestimate a samurai cat.
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Old 12-06-2001, 03:38 AM   #33
Duarh
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What I, being a lowly white belt, hate most is when someone who has trained maybe a month more than I trains with me and starts teaching with 100% confidence in his/her own truth. That is, I'm not at all against learning from someone who has trained even less then I, but I just hate when someone 6thkyuish says 'Don't look at the way he did it, that's wrong. I know how to do it' after a nidan has come around to show me (Yes, I actually HAVE experienced this)

But otherwise, I've learned lots from 4th kyus (who are not so far advanced as sensei so they still remember teaching the very, very basics which sensei sometimes takes for granted) and 2-1th kyus. I'm not at all against student-student teaching, if it's on a moderate level.

Toms
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Old 12-06-2001, 06:37 AM   #34
Thalib
 
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Teaching and Telling.

There is a world of difference between teaching and telling.

What has been said so far about the "smart alec" students telling another what to do, it is just that, telling, not teaching. Do not mistake the two. Teaching is a noble art, and not many are able to follow this path.

It is believed that there was already a post stating what teaching is all about. It is not, "I know how it is done." Not, "This is how it is done." But teaching is, "Let's learn together on how it is done and so far this is what have been learnt..."

The difference is actually on the mindset of the one that is involved. When one believes that oneself knows everything, one actually knows nothing, and the skill would eventually die out. But, when one believes that oneself is still inadequate in one's pursuit of knowledge, one will always try to better oneself, and the skill would eventually be ever-lasting and ever-expanding.

Telling is only an empty shell, meaningless, useless. Many people only tell what they know, not teach what they know. It is not easy to teach. Be blessed to those who knows how to teach, for it is a noble art.

Teaching is learning, learning is teaching.
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Old 12-06-2001, 12:07 PM   #35
Edward
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Well, as someone already said somewhere in this thread, if you really have to speak, keep it to a minimum. If speaking is silver, silence is gold, as the Germans say.
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Old 12-06-2001, 01:33 PM   #36
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Every been to Japan? They teach by showing and then doing (at least in Iwama).

Well, if they do it in Iwama, I suppose the technique is beyond improvement.
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Old 12-06-2001, 02:48 PM   #37
Arianah
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I have just today learned the true value of silence on the mat. Wanting more time to practice, a fellow student and I set up a time to meet and go over a few throws outside of class. Though this person makes a great mat partner when in class, outside of class, when he can speak freely, he began teaching me, as if he had been doing Aikido for ten years and this was my first day (we have both been practicing for the same amount of time. In fact, I have practiced more than he.) I didn't think he would ever shutup, and began to be especially annoyed when he started contradicting Sensei. I have a new-found appreciation of the no-talking rule on the mat. I still maintain that a beginner who is completely confused could benefit from a little prompting from a more advanced student (ex. "step back" end), but I can see where the arrogant students with nothing of real value to share can get annoying when they begin to teach on the mat.

Arianah

Last edited by Arianah : 12-06-2001 at 08:51 PM.
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Old 12-06-2001, 05:02 PM   #38
Richard Harnack
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Talking on the mat

Quote:
Originally posted by Arianah
I have just today learned the true value of silence on the mat. Wanting more time to practice, a fellow student and I set up a time to meet and go over a few throws. Though this person makes a great mat partner when in class, outside of class, when he can speak freely, he began teaching me, as if he had been doing Aikido for ten years and this was my first day (we have both been practicing for the same amount of time. In fact, I have practiced more than he.) I didn't think he would ever shutup, and began to be especially annoyed when he started contradicting Sensei. ...Arianah
Some people seem to only be able to learn when they hear themselves say it. However, those who talk instead of training are not learning anything.

It is appropriate to ask your Sensei to come over and instruct you in the technique you are attempting to learn. This way the other person may actually learn something too.

Enjoy.

Yours In Aiki,
Richard Harnack
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Old 12-06-2001, 08:25 PM   #39
Edward
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Re: Talking on the mat

Quote:
Originally posted by Richard Harnack


It is appropriate to ask your Sensei to come over and instruct you in the technique you are attempting to learn. This way the other person may actually learn something too.
Well, this is a great idea. Not only that, but usually your Sensei will show you the technique by demonstrating on your partner, so choose a really painful one
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Old 12-07-2001, 04:47 AM   #40
Speireag
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Quote:
Speireag:
Yes and no. If I'm trying to apply myself fully to the training, I don't necessarily want to spend the energy evaluating my partner's comments. My partner is generally welcome to comment afterward, but while we are training, I would rather train, and concentrate on that.

[Censored]:
Who allocates your energy? You or someone else?


Speireag:
Make no mistake; I sometimes want verbal feedback. I certainly have benefitted from it. And I know how to ask for it when I want it.

[Censored]:
Do you know how to ignore it when you do not want it?


Speireag:
Since I can ask for verbal feedback if I want it, by *not* commenting, my partner frees me to work on the non-verbal level.

[Censored]:
You are free regardless. Sorry, but the prison is your mind, pal.

When I practice with others who are in this same trap, I usually keep my mouth shut. Do not mistake this for the proper training method. This is giving a handicap to a beginner.
It's hard to know how to reply productively to a post such as this. You're making a lot of assumptions, in a tone which is condescending and arrogant. Since I don't know why you reacted in that way, I won't attempt to reply in detail. I'll just say that I hope that you study sincerely and that your study bears fruit.

Best wishes,

-Speireag.

Speireag Alden
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Old 12-07-2001, 01:39 PM   #41
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It's hard to know how to reply productively to a post such as this. You're making a lot of assumptions, in a tone which is condescending and arrogant. Since I don't know why you reacted in that way, I won't attempt to reply in detail.

You have been distracted by trivialities and you are therefore in no position to deal with the real substance. Is this how you bring your Aikido practice into your daily life?

If this was an actual attack, instead of a calm Internet discussion, that kind of response might just get you killed. You know?

I'll just say that I hope that you study sincerely and that your study bears fruit.

Thanks. I hope you won't look a gift horse in the mouth.
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Old 12-13-2001, 01:36 AM   #42
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Re: students teaching

The Kodenkan school takes teaching as a responsibility of everyone in the dojo.
http://www.ajjf.org/dojos/kodenkan/


Quote:
Originally posted by Chocolateuke
what do you think of having students teach?
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Old 12-13-2001, 01:52 AM   #43
Edward
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Quote:
Originally posted by [Censored]
[b]
If this was an actual attack, instead of a calm Internet discussion, that kind of response might just get you killed. You know?

Usually in Aikido, we follow a certain etiquette of being courteous to each other. I see now that you practice Hawaiian Ju-Jutsu not Aikido. I hope you follow a similar etiquette in your art too.
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Old 12-13-2001, 02:26 AM   #44
Edward
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Re: Re: students teaching

Quote:
Originally posted by unsound000
The Kodenkan school takes teaching as a responsibility of everyone in the dojo.
http://www.ajjf.org/dojos/kodenkan/


Sorry Jon,

I confused you with censored. Please accept my apologies.

Best regards,
Edward
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Old 12-13-2001, 05:06 PM   #45
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Usually in Aikido, we follow a certain etiquette of being courteous to each other. I see now that you practice Hawaiian Ju-Jutsu not Aikido. I hope you follow a similar etiquette in your art too.

I have been courteous enough to mirror your misconceptions. This is a courtesy I do not normally grant to Aikido practice partners, much less strangers, because they cannot handle the pressure gracefully.

Prove me wrong.
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Old 12-13-2001, 05:31 PM   #46
Richard Harnack
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Unhappy At the risk of getting two mad at me

Joshua & Chris -
After reading your most recent colloquy I can only conclude that you both have reached an impasse beyond which lies an increase in recriminations.

As a favor to myself, would you be so kind as to move your colloquy to private e-mails.

I realize this a selfish request on my part, but one I am making.

Thank you.

Yours In Aiki,
Richard Harnack
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Old 12-13-2001, 05:53 PM   #47
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Re: At the risk of getting two mad at me

Quote:
Originally posted by Richard Harnack
Joshua & Chris -
After reading your most recent colloquy I can only conclude that you both have reached an impasse beyond which lies an increase in recriminations.

As a favor to myself, would you be so kind as to move your colloquy to private e-mails.

I realize this a selfish request on my part, but one I am making.

Thank you.
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Old 12-13-2001, 08:53 PM   #48
Speireag
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Re: At the risk of getting two mad at me

Quote:
Originally posted by Richard Harnack
Joshua & Chris -
After reading your most recent colloquy I can only conclude that you both have reached an impasse beyond which lies an increase in recriminations.

As a favor to myself, would you be so kind as to move your colloquy to private e-mails.

I realize this a selfish request on my part, but one I am making.

Thank you.
Richard -

I think that you may be confusing me with some of the people who replied more recently. (Chris may also have done the same thing in his most recent post, but it's not clear from the context.) I last replied to this thread on December 07, and had not intended to reply after that.

Yesterday I caught up with recent replies to the thread, and saw a way to contribute something productive, though I may not have the time to do it for a few days. If I do, I do not think that you will object to the content or tone.

Best wishes,

-Speireag.

Speireag Alden
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Old 12-13-2001, 09:18 PM   #49
Richard Harnack
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Re: Confusion

Quote:
Originally posted by Speireag


Richard -

I think that you may be confusing me with some of the people who replied more recently.

-Speireag.
Joshua -
If it is your picture that Aleksey has put up then I am more than a bit confused.

I was responding to the tone of the last few posts done under both yours & Chris' names.

Anyhow, sigh....

Yours In Aiki,
Richard Harnack
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Old 12-13-2001, 10:06 PM   #50
shihonage
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Re: Re: Confusion

Quote:
Originally posted by Richard Harnack

Joshua -
If it is your picture that Aleksey has put up then I am more than a bit confused.
No, its the picture of your post.
Metaphorically speaking
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