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Old 10-25-2007, 09:10 PM   #1
shadowedge
 
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Technique clarification...

hello everyone,

I haven't been practicing for a few months because of my hectic work schedule. I plan to get back into training by the end of the year.

Beforehand, I'd like to clarify a few techniques (and their names) in the name of research.

1 - About Kokyu nage:

I've come across multiple definitions of this technique:

~ the thousand throws
~to throw without holding(?) / locking(?) an opponent's wrists

Does this mean, that any throw, as long as you dont grab any of the uke's bodyparts ~ classifies as a kokyu nage?

2 - There is this technique, where in the nage will duck down as the uke uses high attacks such as shomen uchi. Upon ducking, the uke's force will cause him to trip over the nage.

What is this technique called again? Is it just another variation of Kokyu nage?

Many thanks

J
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Old 10-25-2007, 11:02 PM   #2
xuzen
 
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Re: Technique clarification...

1 - About Kokyu nage: I've come across multiple definitions of this technique:

~ the thousand throws - [WRONG]
~ to throw without holding(?) / locking(?) an opponent's wrists [WRONG]
~ Does this mean, that any throw, as long as you dont grab any of the uke's bodyparts ~ classifies as a kokyu nage? - [WRONG]

Kokyu-Nage - literally means breath throw. What it actually means is that anything that you do, that gets uke's butt on the floor but do not have a proper term for it is called KOKYU-NAGE

2 - There is this technique, where in the nage will duck down as the uke uses high attacks such as shomen uchi. Upon ducking, the uke's force will cause him to trip over the nage.

What is this technique called again? Is it just another variation of Kokyu nage? - [CORRECT] but I think the Tomiki folks call it GEDAN-ATE?

Boon.

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Old 10-26-2007, 01:08 AM   #3
Flintstone
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Re: Technique clarification...

Quote:
Xu Wenfung wrote: View Post
2 - There is this technique, where in the nage will duck down as the uke uses high attacks such as shomen uchi. Upon ducking, the uke's force will cause him to trip over the nage.

What is this technique called again? Is it just another variation of Kokyu nage? - [CORRECT] but I think the Tomiki folks call it GEDAN-ATE?

Boon.
I believe he's referring to Aiki Nage, where you drop at uke's feet and he just happens to fly over you. Gedan Ate / Do Gaeshi is a very different thing; kind of a Shokumen Irimi Nage but applied to uke's body, instead of his head.

Last edited by Flintstone : 10-26-2007 at 01:10 AM.
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Old 10-26-2007, 02:11 AM   #4
xuzen
 
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Re: Technique clarification...

Quote:
Alejandro Villanueva wrote: View Post
I believe he's referring to Aiki Nage, where you drop at uke's feet and he just happens to fly over you. Gedan Ate / Do Gaeshi is a very different thing; kind of a Shokumen Irimi Nage but applied to uke's body, instead of his head.
Aiki-Nage? Hmmm that will do too. My school just refer it generically as Kokyu-Nage.

Oopsie wrt Gedan-ate.... my bad. More Bunny Hops for me...

Boon.

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Old 10-26-2007, 05:14 AM   #5
shadowedge
 
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Re: Technique clarification...

Zuen, Flinstone,

thanks for the replies!

I was about to ask about Aiki nage, hehehe. I've been looking at the aikiwiki and the aikido faq for the right terminology, unfortunately they don't seem to be as comprehensive as I hoped it would be.

example > I am looking for the definition of this word > Nagai Tsuki(?) is this the term used for the jumping ukemi, or the long diving thrust?

Thanks again!

Last edited by shadowedge : 10-26-2007 at 05:15 AM. Reason: spellfix
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Old 10-26-2007, 05:36 AM   #6
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Re: Technique clarification...

Quote:
Rene Vencer, Jr wrote: View Post
Zuen, Flinstone,

thanks for the replies!

I was about to ask about Aiki nage, hehehe. I've been looking at the aikiwiki and the aikido faq for the right terminology, unfortunately they don't seem to be as comprehensive as I hoped it would be.

example > I am looking for the definition of this word > Nagai Tsuki(?) is this the term used for the jumping ukemi, or the long diving thrust?

Thanks again!
Nagai tsuki would mean a "long thrust"

Aiki nage can be any kind of throw where there is minimal physical contact between uke and nage but bage's actions cause uke to overextend / lose balance etc. The shomen-uchi-ducky-down one being a good example.
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Old 10-26-2007, 06:27 AM   #7
Nick P.
 
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Re: Technique clarification...

Quote:
Rene Vencer, Jr wrote: View Post

1 - About Kokyu nage:

I've come across multiple definitions of this technique:

~ the thousand throws
~to throw without holding(?) / locking(?) an opponent's wrists

Does this mean, that any throw, as long as you dont grab any of the uke's bodyparts ~ classifies as a kokyu nage?
I cannot comment on the first definition, but the second and your summary are how I am being taught and exactly what I understand kokyu nage to be; no grab/grip from nage = kokyu nage.
I was just about to say that irimi nage should then be called a kokyu nage, but there is the back hand on uke's neck.

Quote:
Rene Vencer, Jr wrote: View Post
2 - There is this technique, where in the nage will duck down as the uke uses high attacks such as shomen uchi. Upon ducking, the uke's force will cause him to trip over the nage.

What is this technique called again? Is it just another variation of Kokyu nage?
Until someone reveals more descriptive name for the waza (rei nage?), I would also call that kokyu nage.

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Old 10-26-2007, 07:14 AM   #8
Beard of Chuck Norris
 
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Re: Technique clarification...

Most throws that you aren't certain are called something else will called kokyu nage, probably!

Even if they have a name they might just be a named kind of kokyu nage.
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Old 10-26-2007, 07:52 AM   #9
John Matsushima
 
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Re: Technique clarification...

A lot of people call techniques "kokyu nage" when they simply don't know the name, but I don't think this is the correct approach. I think kokyu nage is the technique which is "not" a technique. Let me clarify. In kokyu nage, there is no turning of the uke's wrists or arms such as in kaiten nage, tenbin nage, or ikkyo. It is the one which was described as when the uke attacks with a two hand grab from the rear and then goes flying over uke, but isn't because he is tripping over him. It can also be done in other variations, such as tai no tenkan, when uke continues to go forward with his attack into mae ukemi. There is nothing that directly causes the uke to lose his balance except for the uke's own action. It can be done with or without contact. It is the ultimate in blending and flow, or ki no nagare. The uke attacks, and finds himself falling into a void. I like to think of it as violent aggression being drawn out as naturally and smoothly as the breath from one's lips.

-John Matsushima

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http://onecorneroftheplanetinjapan.blogspot.jp/
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Old 10-26-2007, 09:45 AM   #10
mickeygelum
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Re: Technique clarification...

Quote:
2 - There is this technique, where in the nage will duck down as the uke uses high attacks such as shomen uchi. Upon ducking, the uke's force will cause him to trip over the nage.
It is one of O Sensei's techniques, it can be found in numerous videos of O Sensei demonstrating it....we call it Shizumi Otoshi, the tenth technique of the O Waza Ju Pon Kata, for some.

Mickey
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Old 10-26-2007, 09:45 AM   #11
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Re: Technique clarification...

Quote:
John Matsushima wrote: View Post
A lot of people call techniques "kokyu nage" when they simply don't know the name
....
hehe, found me out!

I think one man's kokyu nage is another's aiki nage. IMHO they are two seperate things but the M and the O in the IMHO don't amount to much!

peace and love

Jo
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Old 10-26-2007, 01:14 PM   #12
Lan Powers
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Re: Technique clarification...

Our term for the "duck down to uke's feet as he comes in" throw where his momentum takes him over is sudori (sp?)
Not relly a scrifice throw (sutemi) but one where you make yourself the fulcrom of the pivoting movement of uke.

Unless I have the two names reversed
Lan

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Old 10-29-2007, 05:16 AM   #13
shadowedge
 
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Re: Technique clarification...

So is it safe to assume, that certain techniques can have different names? ... that different schools / kai's may call a different from another?
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Old 10-29-2007, 07:28 AM   #14
xuzen
 
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Re: Technique clarification...

Quote:
Rene Vencer, Jr wrote: View Post
So is it safe to assume, that certain techniques can have different names? ... that different schools / kai's may call a different from another?
Correct. There appear not to have any universality wrt to technique names and they differ among the school and lineage.

Boon.

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Old 10-29-2007, 07:45 AM   #15
John Ruhl
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Re: Technique clarification...

Quote:
Rene Vencer, Jr wrote: View Post
hello everyone,

2 - There is this technique, where in the nage will duck down as the uke uses high attacks such as shomen uchi. Upon ducking, the uke's force will cause him to trip over the nage.

What is this technique called again? Is it just another variation of Kokyu nage?
For what it's worth, I was reading Saotome sensei's "Aikido and the Harmony of Nature" recently, and saw pictures of this technique, which was referred to as kokyu nage.

I find that interesting, as this technique for me is more of a "contraction" of nage, where I think of other kokyu's as being more of an extension or "inflation". Undoubtedly I'm doing them all wrong.

-John
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Old 10-29-2007, 08:03 AM   #16
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Re: Technique clarification...

Quote:
John Ruhl wrote: View Post
Undoubtedly I'm doing them all wrong.

-John
Undoubtedly indeed.

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Old 11-14-2007, 08:29 AM   #17
Mato-san
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Re: Technique clarification...

The waza you are thinking about is a breath throw.... but I am certain that 80% of "folks" these days are not actually doing a kokyu nage but they will label it as such.
Kokyu ho
Kokyu dosa
There are many variations. Take your pic

Before you drive or steer your vehicle, you must first start the engine, release the brake and find gear!
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Old 11-14-2007, 09:22 AM   #18
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Re: Technique clarification...

for no. 2

I learned that technique as Aiki Otoshi. Going down to your hands and knees and sliding thru Uke 's knees. I ve seen Aiki Otoshi attributed the throw where Nage sweeps/cradles Uke's knee with his hands and throws Uke either over Nage's knee or sweeps his hands in front of him and uke lands in front of Nage.

Better to ask your teacher about Kokyu Nage. Its like the food pyramid its in the "other" category. Not meat, poultry, grain or dairy but the other group.

Dont make me, make you, grab my wrist.
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Old 11-14-2007, 09:29 AM   #19
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Re: Technique clarification...

well said william

Before you drive or steer your vehicle, you must first start the engine, release the brake and find gear!
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Old 11-14-2007, 09:30 AM   #20
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Re: Technique clarification...

I refer to the food group quote.. sorry for my internet skills or lack of

Before you drive or steer your vehicle, you must first start the engine, release the brake and find gear!
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Old 12-06-2007, 07:38 AM   #21
Paul Milburn
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Re: Technique clarification...

As I understand it kokyu nage is a rather nebulous aiki term for any breath focused throw, It can take on almost any form. the second technique you describe could certainly come under that umbrella I would suggest.
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