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Old 11-22-2001, 09:00 AM   #1
L. Camejo
 
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Do symbol Koryu no kata info

Hi all,

This one is for the Shodokan guys out there and anyone else who may be in the know.

Does anyone know where I can get detailed internet links, videos or even personal information regarding the particular techniques, attacks and the order of techniques for any of the Koryu no Katas?

I already have an idea of the Koryu Dai San, from my experience with the Koryu Go shin no Kata, but I was curious about the others.

I've never seen these katas demonstrated and was wondering what they entailed, since some of the techniques in the katas are not what I usually use in daily Shodokan practice.

Anyone with info? This is really important for me to understand and practice the entire spectrum of our style of Aikido, at least until I can make a trip to Britain or Japan and see for myself

Hope someone can help.

Domo Arigato Gozaimashita
L.C.

--Mushin Mugamae - No Mind No Posture. He who is possessed by nothing possesses everything.--
http://www.tntaikido.org
http://www.mushinkan.ca
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Old 11-22-2001, 05:52 PM   #2
deepsoup
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Re: Koryu no kata info

Quote:
Originally posted by L. Camejo
Does anyone know where I can get detailed internet links, videos or even personal information regarding the particular techniques, attacks and the order of techniques for any of the Koryu no Katas?

I already have an idea of the Koryu Dai San, from my experience with the Koryu Go shin no Kata, but I was curious about the others.

I've never seen these katas demonstrated and was wondering what they entailed, since some of the techniques in the katas are not what I usually use in daily Shodokan practice.

L.C.
Hi Larry,

As you know the Koryu Dai San is actually the same kata as the Goshin no Kata, did you also know that the Koryu Dai Yon is another name for the Nage no Kata?

I'm told that the 'other' Koryu katas (1,2,5 and 6) are very rarely, if ever, taught at honbu dojo these days, but that all of the principles in these katas are covered elsewhere in the Shodokan syllabus.
(Hopefully Peter will be along soon to post a better informed reply than mine. )

The techniques of all the Koryu katas are listed in order on the JAA-USA website but without already being familiar with the katas I dont think thats really any help.

Probably the foremost authority on the Koryu's in the UK is Dr Ah Loi Lee, who has a couple of books and a couple of video's published covering the subject. I cant comment on them, though, I'm afraid, never having read/watched them.

As far as I know, the Koryu katas are also practiced in the USA by the Fugakukai and the Jiyushinkai, so maybe there is a book or a video available from those guys.

Best of luck.
Sean
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Old 11-22-2001, 06:47 PM   #3
PeterR
 
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Re: Re: Koryu no kata info

Well actually Sean - it was as good a reply as any.

A couple of additional points along with one correction.

Nage no Kata are only the first 14 of the Koryu Dai Yon - there are another 11 after those which are not considered part of the Dai Yon.

I have heard through a convoluted path (ie. don't take as gospel) that the Dai-Ichi and Dai-Ni were first attempts and the Dai-San the culmination. Dai-go and Dai-rokku were designed for those that don't (can not practice randori). Dai-yon teaches fluidity of movement. I never really asked Nariyama or any of the old guys whether this is true of not. On occaision each of these kata sets are taught at Honbu but generally as Sean points out the material is covered elsewhere.

Remember each of the kihon randori no kata has a series of variations based on altered attacks, there are also a number of techniques taught as part of the kyu grade syllabus, oya (advanced/application) no kata, and a whole slew of individual techniques.

The whole range of kata series are there for those who want to learn them - you can always find someone to help you with them.

Quote:
Originally posted by deepsoup


Hi Larry,

As you know the Koryu Dai San is actually the same kata as the Goshin no Kata, did you also know that the Koryu Dai Yon is another name for the Nage no Kata?

I'm told that the 'other' Koryu katas (1,2,5 and 6) are very rarely, if ever, taught at honbu dojo these days, but that all of the principles in these katas are covered elsewhere in the Shodokan syllabus.
(Hopefully Peter will be along soon to post a better informed reply than mine. )

The techniques of all the Koryu katas are listed in order on the JAA-USA website but without already being familiar with the katas I dont think thats really any help.

Probably the foremost authority on the Koryu's in the UK is Dr Ah Loi Lee, who has a couple of books and a couple of video's published covering the subject. I cant comment on them, though, I'm afraid, never having read/watched them.

As far as I know, the Koryu katas are also practiced in the USA by the Fugakukai and the Jiyushinkai, so maybe there is a book or a video available from those guys.

Best of luck.
Sean
x

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 11-23-2001, 10:47 AM   #4
Dennis Good
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Hi all.
The best source I've found for the Koryu no Kata outside of my instructor is a book called "Tomiki Aikido" by Lee Ah Loi. Its a small blue book and can be found on Amazon.com. It contains Nage No Kata as well as all six Koryu no Katas. It is a good book if you already have an understanding of the techniques, however trying to learn the techniques directly from the book can be problematic without someone to explain the fine points. Be forewarned, it does have some errors in it such as saying nage to step with the left foot, but the photo showing nage stepping with the right etc. But the order is correct and it has all the techniques.

Good Luck
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Old 11-23-2001, 02:55 PM   #5
Abasan
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Lee Ah Loi Sensei (7th dan) also has video tapes. Her second tape would show 6 katas I think. In UK its distributed by Beckmann home video - meadow court, west st, ramsey, isle of man, british isles. Tel 0624 816585 and fax 0624 816589.

Personally I didn't think much of her 1st video but the second one is much more interesting. But you probably would have to know the individual moves first as they don't really teach you the fine points (and besides, aikido is learned on the mat not via books and videos). The video would help in showing you the sequence though.

Draw strength from stillness. Learn to act without acting. And never underestimate a samurai cat.
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Old 11-23-2001, 05:35 PM   #6
deepsoup
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Re: Re: Re: Koryu no kata info

Quote:
Originally posted by PeterR
Nage no Kata are only the first 14 of the Koryu Dai Yon - there are another 11 after those which are not considered part of the Dai Yon.
I'm a little confused.
Do you mean that the last 11 are not considered part of Nage no Kata.
(ie: Nage no Kata + Ouyowaza = Koryu Dai Yon) ?

Quote:
The whole range of kata series are there for those who want to learn them - you can always find someone to help you with them.
Very true, but for some of us that help is on our doorstep, while for others its an ocean away. Its much easier for me to find help with learning a technique than it would be if I were, for example, the most experienced aikidoka currently residing on a small(ish) Caribbean island!

Sean
x
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Old 11-23-2001, 05:40 PM   #7
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Koryu no kata info

Quote:
Originally posted by deepsoup

I'm a little confused.
Do you mean that the last 11 are not considered part of Nage no Kata.
(ie: Nage no Kata + Ouyowaza = Koryu Dai Yon) ?
I mean that Nage no Kata are the first 14 techniques of Koryu Dai Yon. Koryu-Dai-Yon contain the 14 techniques of the Nage no Kata plus 11 more. Those 11 are not the Oya no kata.

I know. I was just pointing out that they kata series are not lost but the Shodokan syllabus skirts around them. The themes are covered in other ways.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 11-23-2001, 06:37 PM   #8
deepsoup
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Quote:
Originally posted by PeterR
I mean that Nage no Kata are the first 14 techniques of Koryu Dai Yon. Koryu-Dai-Yon contain the 14 techniques of the Nage no Kata plus 11 more. Those 11 are not the Oya no kata.

I know. I was just pointing out that they kata series are not lost but the Shodokan syllabus skirts around them. The themes are covered in other ways.
Ok, I'm with you now.
(And point taken.)
Thanks

Sean
x

Last edited by deepsoup : 11-23-2001 at 06:40 PM.
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Old 11-25-2001, 07:04 AM   #9
L. Camejo
 
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Thanks a lot for the help guys,

Peter: Informative and wise as usual .

Sean: I see that you understand my position. Being the instructor at the only (I think) Shodokan Aikido Dojo in the Caribbean is not easy, you feel as if the Aikido world is passing you by sometimes . I am in a constant search for Shodokan information wherever I can find it. This website is actually my only source of Aikido information from actual Aikidoka, other than my Sensei who lives in London now. I hope to visit the UK next year to do some training. You never know, I may be in your area.

Abasan, Dgood: Thanks a lot for the info. I'll check out the books and tapes by Dr. Loi. I just bought Total Aikido by Shioda on Amazon, just started to read it.

As far as learning from books and videos I agree with you totally. However, I think as long as one is infused with a sound grounding in the basic principles of the art, one will be able to identify mistakes and distill what they have read and seen through the insight of what they have been taught by an official instructor. This has been my particular way of evolving my Aikido practice, given my geographical situation. Over the past 7 years I've become pretty good at extracting sense from nonsense, especially regarding Aikido. Thanks very much for your help with the books and videos.

To all: Domo Arigato Gozaimashita

If anyone else has more info please keep it coming.

L.C.

--Mushin Mugamae - No Mind No Posture. He who is possessed by nothing possesses everything.--
http://www.tntaikido.org
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Old 11-25-2001, 12:07 PM   #10
deepsoup
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Quote:
Originally posted by L. Camejo
This website is actually my only source of Aikido information from actual Aikidoka, other than my Sensei who lives in London now. I hope to visit the UK next year to do some training. You never know, I may be in your area.
Hi Larry,

Have you heard of the Tomiki-L mailing list? There is a fair bit there that may interest you. I just recently discovered that all the posts are archived at: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/tomiki-l/

If you're going to be in the UK, I'll make sure I get to train with you. London isn't far for me to travel once in a while, or if you're thinking of heading a little further north, you'll be very welcome in Sheffield.

The annual Shodokan course in Skenfrith (just over the border between England and Wales, at the home dojo of Bob Forrest-Webb) might be a good time for you to be here. Its held over a long weekend towards the end of May, there's excellent instruction and its always lots of fun.

Regards
Sean
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Old 11-26-2001, 04:50 PM   #11
L. Camejo
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by deepsoup


Hi Larry,

Have you heard of the Tomiki-L mailing list? There is a fair bit there that may interest you. I just recently discovered that all the posts are archived at: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/tomiki-l/

If you're going to be in the UK, I'll make sure I get to train with you. London isn't far for me to travel once in a while, or if you're thinking of heading a little further north, you'll be very welcome in Sheffield.

The annual Shodokan course in Skenfrith (just over the border between England and Wales, at the home dojo of Bob Forrest-Webb) might be a good time for you to be here. Its held over a long weekend towards the end of May, there's excellent instruction and its always lots of fun.

Regards
Sean
Thanks for the info Sean,

I've signed up for the Tomiki-l list andI'm going through the archives and stuff.

I'll be checking out my options for training in the UK soon, my sensei and I may make a trip up from London to Sheffield. I'll keep you posted on developments.

At present I'm also thinking of organizing an International Shodokan Aikido seminar in my country of Trinidad. I plan to invite Shodokan Aikidoka worldwide to come to Trinidad for a few days to showcase what Aikido and Shodokan in particular is all about.

This, of course is only in the planning stages, I need to make a few more contacts (including finding out if my Sensei can get Nariyama to come). So if you or anyone else who sees this may be interested, please let me know. There are many people in the Caribbean interested in Aikido, but the main style offered is Aikikai. It would be nice to give them another option.

Thank for all the replies guys. If I have any probs with the koryu no kata I'll be back.

Arigato Gozaimashita
L.C.

--Mushin Mugamae - No Mind No Posture. He who is possessed by nothing possesses everything.--
http://www.tntaikido.org
http://www.mushinkan.ca
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Old 11-26-2001, 04:54 PM   #12
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Re: Re: Re: Koryu no kata info

Quote:
Originally posted by PeterR
[BRemember each of the kihon randori no kata has a series of variations based on altered attacks, there are also a number of techniques taught as part of the kyu grade syllabus, oya (advanced/application) no kata, and a whole slew of individual techniques.

The whole range of kata series are there for those who want to learn them - you can always find someone to help you with them.

[/b]
Hi Peter,

What are the oya no kata you mentioned above, if you don't mind my asking?

L.C.

--Mushin Mugamae - No Mind No Posture. He who is possessed by nothing possesses everything.--
http://www.tntaikido.org
http://www.mushinkan.ca
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Old 11-26-2001, 06:45 PM   #13
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Koryu no kata info

Quote:
Originally posted by L. Camejo


Hi Peter,

What are the oya no kata you mentioned above, if you don't mind my asking?

L.C.
Oya means advanced or application kata. They consist of 8 waza that are pretty fast and brutal. More I can't tell you just that they include ushiro-ate variations, kotegeishi variations, and oshitaoshi variations. They are more akin to what you would see in the Koryu Goshin no Kata but different from.

Last edited by PeterR : 11-27-2001 at 07:16 AM.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 11-26-2001, 11:33 PM   #14
C. de Boisblanc
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Koryu no Katas

Hi Larry:

Karl Geis Sensei has instruction tapes which you can purchase on his web site on. They show excellent off balance and technique.

Koryu dai san, yon, go and roku

www.karlgeis.com

Regards,

C.de Boisblanc
Aikibudokan Dojo
Houston, TX
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Old 11-28-2001, 04:52 PM   #15
deepsoup
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Quote:
Originally posted by L. Camejo

I'll be checking out my options for training in the UK soon, my sensei and I may make a trip up from London to Sheffield. I'll keep you posted on developments.
Please do, I'll look forward to seeing you.
(Whichever dojo we happen to be in. )

Quote:
At present I'm also thinking of organizing an International Shodokan Aikido seminar in my country of Trinidad. I plan to invite Shodokan Aikidoka worldwide to come to Trinidad for a few days to showcase what Aikido and Shodokan in particular is all about.
That sounds wonderful.
If I can get there, I would love to attend such an event. My heart has already signed up, but my wallet may have a problem with the air fare, if you see what I mean.

Sean
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Old 11-29-2001, 02:06 AM   #16
Karl Kuhn
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Trinadad, huh? Keep us posted. Sounds like a good excuse to get to a part of the world that is not usually on my radar. Sounds like fun.

Peter (hey buddy) is spot on, per usual, as regards the Dai-Ichi and the Dai-Ni. After some investigation (pretty limited) it really seems as though they are bits being developed and culminate in the Dai-San, newly sainted as the Goshin-no-kata.

I've uked for the Dai-go, but I can't seem to recall the particulars. I will do some digging to see where I would put it.

The Dai-Roku, however, may have been designed for none-randori players but contains some fascinating weapons info. Worked it in a couple day seminar and it was a headfull. Something I look forward to revisting (it's on the docks for my clubs dan rank r&d winter project). As was noted, Loi's book and videos are the documents to get your hands on. They are of their time, but an a rich resource.

The Dai-Yon is (Nage-no-kata included) is my favorite kata right now. I highly reccomend that everyone take some time and sink their proverbial teeth in it. There lay great rewards. Really, I can't get enough of it. As an intersting aside, I thought the emphasis placed on the Nage-no-kata @ Shodokan to be very important and enlightening. That kata does not get the matt time it should in most US dojos. My guess is that this will soon change.

Cheers,
Karl

Last edited by Karl Kuhn : 11-29-2001 at 02:15 AM.

Karl Kuhn
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Old 11-30-2001, 02:34 PM   #17
Abasan
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Hmm... my curiosity knows no bounds.

Coming from an Aikikai background, I find it fascinating that you are all discussing intently on the subject of katas. Does kata make up a significant part of yoshinkan/shodokan/similar style of aikido's curiculum?

Our method for learning the techniques basically has the sensei demonstrating what he wants us to practice. These techniques are done with omote and ura variations. Sometimes, additional variations are emphasised, such as a different tenkan, uchi, soto approach, atemis, reversals and such. With the limitless adaptions this type of training has, it becomes I suppose daunting for the average beginner. Personally I had problems with the omote and ura variations when I first joined.

Although the katas that you've mentioned seem to me a bit limiting on Aikido's open ended techniques. I find it a as a very smart system to introduce beginners to the art. as well as keeping the seniors from not practising their not so favourite moves, which you will find most would do when left to their own devices (I hate hammi handachi for instance ).

What are your thoughts on this? Also, what kind of turnover do you have with beginners? For us, quite a number of beginners disappear after several mind boggling lessons. Or possibly from aching bodies as a result of learning ukemi's the natural way.

Draw strength from stillness. Learn to act without acting. And never underestimate a samurai cat.
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Old 11-30-2001, 05:04 PM   #18
deepsoup
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Quote:
Originally posted by Abasan
Hmm... my curiosity knows no bounds.

Coming from an Aikikai background, I find it fascinating that you are all discussing intently on the subject of katas. Does kata make up a significant part of yoshinkan/shodokan/similar style of aikido's curiculum?

Our method for learning the techniques basically has the sensei demonstrating what he wants us to practice. These techniques are done with omote and ura variations. Sometimes, additional variations are emphasised, such as a different tenkan, uchi, soto approach, atemis, reversals and such. With the limitless adaptions this type of training has, it becomes I suppose daunting for the average beginner. Personally I had problems with the omote and ura variations when I first joined.

Although the katas that you've mentioned seem to me a bit limiting on Aikido's open ended techniques. I find it a as a very smart system to introduce beginners to the art. as well as keeping the seniors from not practising their not so favourite moves, which you will find most would do when left to their own devices (I hate hammi handachi for instance ).

What are your thoughts on this? Also, what kind of turnover do you have with beginners? For us, quite a number of beginners disappear after several mind boggling lessons. Or possibly from aching bodies as a result of learning ukemi's the natural way.
Hi Abasan,

Excellent questions.

You may find a few answers in an article called Kata Training and Aikido by Diane Skoss, over on aikidojournal.com (It was originally published in Aiki News about 1994).
In the Shodokan dojo where I train, we spend a fair bit of our training working on kata, but a lot of our training also has our teacher demonstrating the techniques he wants us to practice, usually in any one session there will be some 'theme' linking those techniques. The techniques are based on the kata, but not limited to it, so as you progress things do tend to get a bit more 'open ended'.

I hope I'm not treading on anyones copyright by quoting a couple of lines.. As Diane Skoss says in that essay:

" The whole point of kata, or form, is to be able to ultimately transcend it--shu, ha, ri (keep the form, break the form, and leave the form). Vigorous training within the form is but the first step. When we practice kata in any martial art or way we are partaking of a legacy left us by our masters--the clues that point the way to breaking free of the form are embedded in the forms themselves."

As far as I know the beginner turnover is pretty much the same between Shodokan and Aikikai dojos though. (Maybe it is the ukemi: after a few years of aikido training, it never ceases to amaze me how terrified the average person is of falling over! )

Sean
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Old 11-30-2001, 05:23 PM   #19
C. de Boisblanc
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Study of Kata

[quote]Originally posted by Abasan
[b]Hmm... my curiosity knows no bounds.


Hi Abasan. I hope this is helpful.

General Background of the Koryu No Kata

While the following is directed more at Tomiki Ryuha aikidoka, we hope that everyone will find this basic explanation of the advanced kata system informative in understanding the structure and formative concepts behind Tomiki Ryuha Aikido.

Fundamentally, the concept of koryu has several translations or possible meanings. Within the martial arts it has been translated as stream or flow. This more specifically means that a system is layered or that over time successive kata or drills are added by the originator and their senior teachers that do not redefine or change the system's concepts or fundamental principles, but rather serve as enhancements that assist in overall understanding.

The core or basic curriculum of any martial art is regarded as teaching the fundamental principles and primary techniques, sometimes referred to as omote or front teachings. The advanced kata system can be said to teach the major variations of these concepts thus leading to a more advanced understanding.

This teaching concept utilized in the the Tomiki Ryuha system of Aikido instruction can be said to be fairly unique within the Aikido universe and is based in part upon the codification system originally proposed and utilized by Kano in his development Kodokan Judo.

Some styles of Aikido tend to make use of an instructional base centered around a certain idea or technique for example showing literally dozens of variations of one specific technique. Tomiki Sensei, realizing the difficulty of learning such a vast volume of techniques and more importantly, being able to use them on an intuitive level when under stress (as in a real life & death situation) concentrated instead on the fundamental principles of exactly how and why any specific technique
works. This included the ideas of non opposition of force and blending with the movement of the attacker as combined with kuzushi, tsukuri and kake (off balancing the opponent, positioning properly for a technique and then ending with a clean execution of the technique).

In the Tomiki Ryuha system, the core or base curriculum is centered around a demonstration of these principles and ideas that are the underpinnings of a major or primary technique. A basic version of that specific technique that is considered the most illustrative of all the Aikido principles as implicit within that specific technique is then taught within the core curriculum.

By this method of a focused study of the basic ideas which is then followed by studying a limited number of the major variations of that technique (within the Koryu-No-Kata), a more comprehensive understanding may be gained at a much earlier point in the student's study.

This method of study (exploring the core or base system first and the major variants later) enables the Tomiki Ryuha student eventually to be able to spontaneously grasp the hundreds of variations as they may occur in randori (free style) without having previously spent years studying the incredibly vast multiplicity of variants. Some, if not most of these variants will very likely never occur nor be seen either in randori (free style) or self-defense situations.

Attention can thus be appropriately focused and time spent most productively in a beneficial study of the techniques and situations that are judged from experience and study as being most likely to occur. If something out of the ordinary should happen to present itself, then the differences to what has been practiced are likely to be so slight that an in-progress adjustment may be made by the subconscious without time delay. This is possible because the underlying principles are understood and integrated by the subconscious.

This integration of the principles is critical. Simple memorization of techniques creates problems for the subconscious in formulating an appropriate response if the Aikido player is laboring under the stress of self-defense. In other words, which of the potentially hundreds of techniques or variations are to be used when under a surprise attack?

If the subconscious relies on an intuitive use of basic principles, then it will pick the principle of off balance and movement most appropriate and will respond accordingly. If the subconscious relies instead on a review of a vast library of techniques some of which have only very minor differentiation from others, the mind may actually go into vapor lock or have a delayed response. These are always bad ideas when defending yourself.

As Tomiki Sensei was building the kata system he was continually modifying it. The early versions were incomplete or not fully illustrative of the full scope of the art. As time went by and the system flourished and grew, he understood in greater depth and detail the real principles of Aikido. This can be seen in the Koryu No Kata system. As you move from Koryu Dai Ichi to Koryu Dai Roku, the techniques become more elegant in their execution and more expressive of principle and
fundamental concepts. A true evolutionary process that today gives us classical Aikido within a coherent teaching system.

Additionally, many Aikido teachers today are of the opinion that Tomiki Sensei, when designing the Koryu No Kata, deliberately used a thematic process. That is, he grouped together techniques and then built the kata around the ideas represented by that grouping. As an example, Koryu Dai Yon Kata within the first 14 movements is clearly illustrative of fundamentals of releases and counters to those releases.

As a side note, many years ago this writer was studying advanced kata under Takeshi Inoue Sensei during his tours of the United States. After noticing that whole sections of attacks and techniques are repeated verbatim within some kata (such as Ni, Go and Yon) the writer asked Mr. Inoue why that was, the question essentially being concerned with the purpose of the redundancy. Inoue Sensei' immediate and unhesitating response was, "Because they are important to understand Aikido".


Why a Codified Method of Studying Aikido Through an Advanced
Kata System?

As a thought for consideration when studying the Koryu No Kata; some traditional Aikido stylists would hold that all this (the base principles and movements and the major variations) is contained within their larger system. Yes, it most certainly is.

Tomiki stylists however, prefer to not have to sift it out on their own by looking at a vast number of techniques and then having to define what the commonality or underlying idea might be. This is the beauty of the codification of the kata system as originally conceived by Kano and later implemented in Aikido by Tomiki Sensei. The groupings are already done thus allowing an immediate detailed and in-depth study.

On the other hand, some Tomiki stylists state that only a study of the basics of randori along with some select portions of the Koryu No Kata system is required for mastery of Aikido and, that shiai (competition) enhances this study.

The philosophy that a previously inexperienced player can look at a severely truncated version of Tomiki Sensei' larger system and somehow intuitively extrapolate all the major and minor variations, putting together the same Aikido universe that Tomiki Sensei did over a lifetime of study and apprenticeship under O'Sensei is short-sighted and fails to acknowledge the complexity of Aikido.

As a theoretical rule Aikido principles should be considered universal to all situations and immediately applicable without the necessity of an extensive and in-depth study. However, in reality and in practice it is necessary to explore the context and differing scenarios in order to make them reflexive as a response out of the subconscious. The idea that you can study one very generic idea no matter how fundamental a principle (as reflected within a technique or drill) and then immediately extrapolate it to fit all future and therefore unknown circumstances
again fails to acknowledge the complexity of the subject material.

For example, the concept of ma-ai (combative distance) seems simplistic in developing the ability to instantaneously evaluate and adjust to changing maai situations intuitively. Study has shown however that in order to utilize the concept intuitively at high speed, you have to actually practice various ma-ai and look at the included timing differences as taken within the context of sen (initiative). Without the actual practice, the mind will not recognize and adjust to those differences as rapidly as it should. This doesn't mean that it eventually can't figure it out. However, it could be compared to a dull knife that still cuts, just not as easily as might a sharpened one.

"Stropping the razor" through constant and repetitive practice of different timings, distances, attacks and movement is the only way to explore and internalize all possibilities and hone the reflexes to a lightning fast and razor sharp keenness. This is best done by repetitive kata practice in which a scenario can be replicated and repetitively practiced as understanding is developed.

Regards,
C. de Boisblanc
Aikibudokan Dojo
Houston, TX
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Old 11-30-2001, 05:38 PM   #20
deepsoup
Dojo: Sheffield Shodokan Dojo
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Quote:
Originally posted by Karl Kuhn
The Dai-Yon is (Nage-no-kata included) is my favorite kata right now. I highly reccomend that everyone take some time and sink their proverbial teeth in it. There lay great rewards. Really, I can't get enough of it. As an intersting aside, I thought the emphasis placed on the Nage-no-kata @ Shodokan to be very important and enlightening. That kata does not get the matt time it should in most US dojos. My guess is that this will soon change.

Cheers,
Karl
Hi Karl,

Nice to 'meet' you, I've read quite a few of your posts here and there while I've been either lurking or trawling through archives.

I've been practicing the Dai Yon (although my instructor uses the name 'Nage-no-Kata' to mean all 25 techniques, rather than just the first 14) a fair bit recently, and I've been really enjoying it too.

It strikes me that the Dai Yon embodies a lot of the principles that traditional aikido emphasises. Someone from an Aikikai background walking into the Shodokan dojo where I train would probably see us as a relatively 'hard', linear kind of style. But then along comes the Nage-no-kata, and there are all those big, flowing, circular techniques (especially in the Ura section) we dont practice quite so often.

Of all katas though, I think this is a '25-year' kata, the way that people talk about ikkyo being a '25-year' technique. Man is it difficult to do well. I'm pretty new to the Ouyou part, and thats really boggling my brain at the moment!

When you're whipping through it, especially as Uke, I find it to be quite an aerobic workout too. (But then my ukemi could probably be rather more efficient, ah well, practice, practice, practice.. )

Sean
x
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Old 11-30-2001, 08:01 PM   #21
akiy
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by deepsoup

You may find a few answers in an article called Kata Training and Aikido by Diane Skoss, over on aikidojournal.com (It was originally published in Aiki News about 1994).
Heh. I actually have that article on this site, too:

http://www.aikiweb.com/training/skoss2.html

-- Jun

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Old 11-30-2001, 09:37 PM   #22
Abasan
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Thanks Christopher, Sean and Jun for the insight. I find that it makes sense that the kata's purpose is to train the aikidoka on principles using the primary form as a baseline and ultimately learn to transcend it.

I suppose even though we don't learn any katas in Aikikai, I could still apply that principle when practicing each technique. To correct my form, master the function and ulitimately understand the principle behind it. Since it is agreed that Aikido principles are universal and applies to each of its techniques, it stands to reason that each technique no matter what the variation would show within it the principles that are to be learned.

Thanks again!

Draw strength from stillness. Learn to act without acting. And never underestimate a samurai cat.
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Old 12-01-2001, 09:26 AM   #23
PeterR
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by Abasan
I suppose even though we don't learn any katas in Aikikai, I could still apply that principle when practicing each technique.
Well actually in a way you do. Most Aikikai dojos have particualar techniques that they teach again and again as part of their curriculum. All the kata are in the Shodokan context are a standard collection of waza. The idea at its most basic is that by taking these techniques to a higher level through constant practice - all your Aikido improves.

We by the way introduce free form very early through the method of full resistance randori. A well trained Shodokan person is very adaptable.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 12-03-2001, 09:42 PM   #24
Abasan
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Quote:
We by the way introduce free form very early through the method of full resistance randori. A well trained Shodokan person is very adaptable.
I know we are deviating from the post with this question I'm about to ask, but I can't help it. Its now become a shodokan inspired post!

About the randori, in Aikikai, or at least where I'm training, we don't do it very often. Actually its meant for black belts and above. In my previous dojo, 3rd kyu and above are already participating in controlled randoris.

With my significant lack of practice in randori, I totally suck at it. This is despite my extensive practice on the individual wazas.

So, do you get better at randori, because you practice randori. Or is it because you've got all the techniques down to pat and it comes naturally when you practice randori. And the bonus question, does good randori make your techniques more effective in individual waza training as well as in self defence situations.

Again apoligies for ursurping this post!

Draw strength from stillness. Learn to act without acting. And never underestimate a samurai cat.
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Old 12-04-2001, 01:57 AM   #25
Edward
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At our dojo, we rarely practice Randori, except for one Sensei who includes Randori in every regular class. Too bad he only teaches one day a week. Usually it is done with 4 Ukes attacking one Nage any way they want, but with commitment. They can individually choose to resist or to follow Nage. however, since it is a committed attack, they rarely have the choice, when Nage has some experience, that is. They just fly around the dojo :-) Randori is great and feels so authentic and so real. You get a rush of adrenaline, you feel really attacked and you do not spare your Ukes so much. It is the ultimate test apart from real fight when you know if your technique is efficiently correct or not. I just wish that we could do it more often.
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