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Old 08-02-2007, 08:48 AM   #51
Chuck Clark
 
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Re: Need some advice.

With all sympathy and respect to AnonAikidoka, this is the internet... some of you may remember a few years ago when, on this very discussion board, a person complained about seriously abusive situations going on in the dojo environment. As things developed many people were engaged emotionally and even officially involved in looking into taking action to solve the problems. And... then we found out that the person was lying about the situation all along just to engage others in drama.

I'm not saying this is happening in this current thread. Just be aware that this sort of thing happens on the internet often.

If this is real, I support the good basic advice that many have given.

Chuck Clark
Jiyushinkai Aikibudo
www.jiyushinkai.org
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Old 08-02-2007, 12:19 PM   #52
Marie Noelle Fequiere
 
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Re: Need some advice.

Quote:
Giancarlo DiPierro wrote: View Post
Last post deleted. Somehow I misread your post and thought you were saying something else closer to what Mary was saying. I don't think anybody is saying that the man didn't do wrong, but I would question whether she really did that good, even just based on her own description. She knew this man for 6 months and did not realize that he was interested in her (despite several clues even in what she posted) or that he was the type of person who would not respect her wishes (despite the one major clue that he used a deceptive pretext to get her alone).

In today's society, I don't think that it is good enough to miss these signs and allow oneself to be put in a vulnerable situation with such a person. I say she is lucky it didn't go father than it did. What if he hadn't stopped? How is going to the police after the fact going to help her? Often that ends up being more pain for the victim as she feels victimized again by the criminal justice system. Perhaps it was a lesson learned the hard way but at least it wasn't as costly as it could have been.
A victim's lack of experience, or even her mistakes, cannot be an excuse for the perpetrator. Even if a woman steps out on the street completely naked, this will not be an excuse for anyone to assault her.
WE ARE NOT ANIMALS!
Now, as I said in a previous post, it is a normal thing in my dojo to exchange phone numbers or e mail addresses, in order to help each other occasionally, and also just for the fun of exchanging jokes.
Now, if that one guy had though of this woman as a human being, worthy of respect, and not just an object placed there for his pleasure, he would, like I also previously said: "I would like to see you".
Than she would have had the freedom to say either: "Yes, I would love that", or "Thanks, but no thanks". This freedom was taken from her.
And when he found himself alone with her, he could have said: "I really like you, can I kiss you?" And she would have had the freedom to say either: "Yes, I would love that", or "Thanks, but no thanks". Again, this freedom was taken from her.
I seriously believe that this guy's behavior is clamoring his extreme selfishness, and his contempt for others, especially women. He is a danger for society, and he needs to be put away.
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Old 08-02-2007, 01:51 PM   #53
Kevin Wilbanks
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Re: Need some advice.

Quote:
Marie Noelle Fequiere wrote: View Post
A victim's lack of experience, or even her mistakes, cannot be an excuse for the perpetrator. Even if a woman steps out on the street completely naked, this will not be an excuse for anyone to assault her.
WE ARE NOT ANIMALS!
Now the shrill propaganda is hitting full boil. Read more carefully. He did not say anything about excusing or justifying the actions of anyone committing sexual assault. He was talking about what victims or potential victims of such assaults might do to protect themselves. You have really gotta wonder what is up with politics that won't allow someone to give out sensible self-defense advice to individuals without getting themselves screamed at for being pro-rapist. Am I correct in concluding, then, that your advice to an individual like Anon is to walk around naked?
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Old 08-02-2007, 02:31 PM   #54
Marie Noelle Fequiere
 
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Re: Need some advice.

Quote:
Kevin Wilbanks wrote: View Post
Now the shrill propaganda is hitting full boil. Read more carefully. He did not say anything about excusing or justifying the actions of anyone committing sexual assault. He was talking about what victims or potential victims of such assaults might do to protect themselves. You have really gotta wonder what is up with politics that won't allow someone to give out sensible self-defense advice to individuals without getting themselves screamed at for being pro-rapist. Am I correct in concluding, then, that your advice to an individual like Anon is to walk around naked?
When use capital letters for the sentence: WE ARE NOT ANIMALS, I was trying to emphasize it, and I did not believe that the previous poster could hear me. I am sorry that he or anyone else interpreted it like that.
Now, I would not advise anyone to walk around naked. I will reasonably land them to jail. But if somebody should suffer from enough lack of control to attack them, they would deserve to spend their own time in jail for the aggression they would have perpetrated.
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Old 08-02-2007, 04:09 PM   #55
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Re: Need some advice.

Quote:
Giancarlo DiPierro wrote: View Post
In today's society, I don't think that it is good enough to miss these signs and allow oneself to be put in a vulnerable situation with such a person.
Should I remember that philosophy the next time I train with the white-belts? IMHO, innocence or ignorance is not permission at any age in any context. But hey, that's just me, sorta old school.

Lynn Seiser PhD
Yondan Aikido & FMA/JKD
We do not rise to the level of our expectations, but fall to the level of our training. Train well. KWATZ!
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Old 08-02-2007, 04:14 PM   #56
SeiserL
 
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Re: Need some advice.

Quote:
Chuck Clark wrote: View Post
With all sympathy and respect to AnonAikidoka, this is the internet... some of you may remember a few years ago when, on this very discussion board, a person complained about seriously abusive situations going on in the dojo environment. As things developed many people were engaged emotionally and even officially involved in looking into taking action to solve the problems. And... then we found out that the person was lying about the situation all along just to engage others in drama.
Osu Sensei,
Point well taken.
Yet, I would just rather error on the side of believing the victim and being wrong, than to not believe them and being wrong. Its a conscience thing.
But hey, as I've said, I am rather old school (and know you are too).
Rei, Domo.

Lynn Seiser PhD
Yondan Aikido & FMA/JKD
We do not rise to the level of our expectations, but fall to the level of our training. Train well. KWATZ!
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Old 08-02-2007, 06:31 PM   #57
Michael Hackett
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Re: Need some advice.

Old school/new school, it doesn't matter much in this situation. The original writer described an event that was an assault in most places and asked for advice as to how she should handle it. I think most people gave her decent and credible advice and took her at face value. No one here was capable of acting on the situation directly, or even calling for the villagers to fire up their torches.

Based on her assertions of what happened, my original opinion remains the same and I would leave it in the hands of the authorities to sort out. I would also leave it in the hands of the court to assess guilt or innocence. Punishment, if appropriate, would be in the context of community standards and the law. I continue to believe that someone victimized as described would benefit from counseling as well.

Even if you assume that AnonAikidoka is a complete fraud (and I don't - there is simply a ring of truth to her story to me), then the writer has done our community a service and brought a subject into light that might benefit someone else at another time. I don't see that as a rush to judgement - but as Dennis Miller puts it, "I could be wrong."

Michael
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Old 08-02-2007, 06:31 PM   #58
"AnonAikidoka"
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Smile Re: Need some advice.

Woah folks I did not mean for this to develop into a war of words here! Whilst I respect that I put myself in a position to be critasised by asking for advice I did not want my OP to cause a fraction between posters. Isn't there something called peace love and harmony that Aikido is based on? I may be reading posts differently from how they where intended but things appear to me to be getting personal and I think that is not a positive thing, surely people should be able to state opinions they feel are right without verbal sparing as it where...

To answer a few points. Yes I should have realized something was not right with the situation before I let it advance that far but the power of hindsight is a wonderful thing.Have I learned something from this experience, yes!?! No he had not made any indication that he was interested in taking things to a romantic level and I certainly did not say anything to indicate that I wanted things to progress to that stage either, (I had made a lot of assumptions which I admit I was wrong to do, including that he knew about my *ahem* Alternative lifestyle as it where, chatting with others in the club it appears that it was somewhat well known!)

Mary I will definitely be looking that book up, it sounds like it would be useful for me to read.

Anyhow just to briefly update you all on what is going on but without giving too much away at Sensei's request.

We have discussed the situation and have come up with a plan that pleases everyone except possibly the guy in question . Basically the guy involved and me will not be working together and the people whom need to know have been informed of this. He will be informed of that fact if he decides that coming back is a good idea. Going back into our dojo environment will result in his life been made uncomfortable.

Somehow we do not this guy will be coming back from his own choice.

As for pressing charges etc well as people have pointed out it is very unlikely that charges will be made against him. Yes it should be put on file somewhere and I should officially report this to the authorities, however at this moment in time I do not feel like I am able to for well reasons I do not want to go into.This incodent has brought up stuff from my past that I thought I had delt with and haven't and at this moment in time I feel it would be best to concentrate on dealing with that baggage and to use a cliche heal myself than having to deal with outside factors. This is not a decision that was lightly made, having discussed it with people who know me and and that I trust it is the best one for me. I imagine that this may get a negative response from forum users and maybe this is rightly so but as stated it was not took lightly and it was with considerable thought.
Also tonight I found out info, again that I do not wish to share, that made it clear that he does need help and should he request it then the club will try and give him that. As for getting help for myself I am in the process of doing just that. Myself and my Sensei had a lengthy chat traveling to and from class tonight about this and that has given me something I feel I can build on with professional support.

Thank you to everyone whom has offered their opinion and support on this matter, it has been truly appreciated.
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Old 08-02-2007, 06:47 PM   #59
Michael Hackett
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Re: Need some advice.

AnonAikidoka,

Do whatever is best for you! You asked for advice and you received it. Only you know your full circumstances and know the best course of action for you. I respect your decision and hope that you can find a good way to get through all this. Best wishes.

Michael
"Leave the gun. Bring the cannoli."
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Old 08-02-2007, 08:38 PM   #60
G DiPierro
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Re: Need some advice.

Quote:
Lynn Seiser wrote: View Post
Quote:
Giancarlo DiPierro wrote:
In today's society, I don't think that it is good enough to miss these signs and allow oneself to be put in a vulnerable situation with such a person.
Should I remember that philosophy the next time I train with the white-belts? IMHO, innocence or ignorance is not permission at any age in any context. But hey, that's just me, sorta old school.
Are you saying that you believe you are putting yourself in a vulnerable situation when you train with white-belts? If so then I cannot imagine what you have been doing training in aikido for so long. And I never said anything about permission, nor did anyone else that I can recall.
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Old 08-03-2007, 06:29 AM   #61
SeiserL
 
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Re: Need some advice.

Quote:
Giancarlo DiPierro wrote: View Post
Are you saying that you believe you are putting yourself in a vulnerable situation when you train with white-belts? If so then I cannot imagine what you have been doing training in aikido for so long.
Point taken. Actually it would be the white-belts who are far too vulnerable. I, as Sempai and a somewhat decent human being, need to respect and honor that, and keep them safe even if I can and could exploit the situation. (and it is not my Aikido they would have to worry about). Its not personal, I just know what I believe an tend to take a strong stance.

I was once told I can never think about what I have never thought about. Meaning, my world view doesn't include that information. Its an ignorance and innocence thing. I no longer am ignorant or innocent, as you can tell by my paranoid projective post, and do not believe it is always a safe world, that people won't take advantage of others, or that everyone will step up and do the right thing.

As I said, for me its an old school thing where I don't blame one person for somebody else's actions. Its an accountability, responsibility, respect, and honor thing.

On the other hand, it is sad that I would have to agree that today, we need to be paranoid and assertive because we cannot always expect the best intention even from those we train with. so your point is not wasted here. Thank you for that.

Lynn Seiser PhD
Yondan Aikido & FMA/JKD
We do not rise to the level of our expectations, but fall to the level of our training. Train well. KWATZ!
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Old 08-03-2007, 06:33 AM   #62
SeiserL
 
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Re: Need some advice.

Quote:
Anonymous User wrote: View Post
Thank you to everyone whom has offered their opinion and support on this matter, it has been truly appreciated.
I am truly pleased you found a course of action, some resolve, and some comfort and support in this forum.

Don't worry about us taking it too far or too personally. One of the things I love about the martial arts is that we are passionate about what we believe and have the strength to voice and act on it. Good people here. No problem. People disagree with me all the time. Its good practice.

Please also extend my compliments and respect to your Sensei, Dojo, and support system.

Rei
Osu
Domo

Lynn Seiser PhD
Yondan Aikido & FMA/JKD
We do not rise to the level of our expectations, but fall to the level of our training. Train well. KWATZ!
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Old 08-03-2007, 12:25 PM   #63
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Re: Need some advice.

AnonAikidoka,
I am sorry for what happened to you. Your innocence was taken advantage of and that is a shame. We seem to lose little pieces of innocence throughout our lives until we become calloused, grumpy old men who want to chop the heads off of people who steal that innocence. So don't mind our bickering. We work it out on the mat anyway. Like Lynn says, there are good people hear with good hearts. I know my son and I appreciated the support we received from the members of this forum when my son was bullied at school.
IMO, a dojo is a sacred place of refuge, where one can train comfortably and joyfully.
Bad characters need not apply.
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Old 08-03-2007, 12:27 PM   #64
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Need some advice.

Best Wishes, and get on with the business of Living Well.

Ron

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"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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Old 08-03-2007, 01:22 PM   #65
Keith Larman
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Re: Need some advice.

I'm late to the discussion. And frankly I quit reading much of it because it wasn't really germane to the original post. But to you, anonymous one, please do make that step of speaking with someone who is a professional. You mentioned it bringing up something from your past. Someone I care for very deeply was deeply scarred by events in her past. Things she'd thought she'd long dealt with. Things she thought were firmly in the past. But later another negative experience brought forth some very strong emotions that had been long buried. And it was very difficult to deal with all over again. And it created tremendous tension in a long standing and very strong marriage. That is not an uncommon thing unfortunately.

This forum offers a lot of support and trust me, we're all rooting for you and we're all sending you our absolutely best wishes. But ultimately you might consider finding a more private, professional setting to discuss what happened recently but also in the past.

The person who held you down and tried to force himself on you? Absolutely wrong. But now you need to focus on making sure he is dealt with and *just as importantly* making sure you deal with your own feelings and memories.

The next step is up to you -- find someone qualified to talk to. It is important. Your peace of mind is important. You only live once (that I know of at least) so focus on finding a way to live the best life possible. And unresolved issues have a way of raising their ugly heads in many subtle and not-so-subtle ways your entire life.

But the bottom line? Take care. And I'd be proud that you had the courage to speak up.

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Old 08-03-2007, 02:24 PM   #66
Chuck Clark
 
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Re: Need some advice.

AnonAikidoka, I also think you have done well in the way you have dealt with this experience. The support you are getting from your sensei and dojo mates will help in the healing and learning process for a long time. I'm glad that it's working for you.

Gambatte!

Chuck Clark
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Old 08-03-2007, 09:51 PM   #67
Adam Alexander
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Re: Need some advice.

Quote:
Anonymous User wrote: View Post
Have I learned something from this experience, yes!?!
I think that's the most important thing.

You can press all the charges you want for whatever reason, but at the end of the day, it's only vengeance. You can't erase what happens.

An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.

Keep yourself in safer situations. We all have to learn our lessons.
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Old 08-03-2007, 10:13 PM   #68
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Re: Need some advice.

Quote:
With all sympathy and respect to AnonAikidoka, this is the internet... some of you may remember a few years ago when, on this very discussion board, a person complained about seriously abusive situations going on in the dojo environment. As things developed many people were engaged emotionally and even officially involved in looking into taking action to solve the problems. And... then we found out that the person was lying about the situation all along just to engage others in drama.

I'm not saying this is happening in this current thread. Just be aware that this sort of thing happens on the internet often.
Exactly what I was attempting to touch on in my post.

Obviously don't ignore the post, address it as it were serious but don't debate over it.

Last edited by Guilty Spark : 08-03-2007 at 10:16 PM.

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Old 08-04-2007, 08:26 AM   #69
heathererandolph
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Re: Need some advice.

I think it's entirely possible Anonymous did not see his attentions as sexual. Given his age, she probably felt safe. Mostly, we trust our professors and other's older in authority. Does one worry when seeing a male professor during regular office hours, alone? No. Why? Trust. In Aikido, we do have to touch each other so I think there is a lot of trust. That could also be part of it. Most adults will let the other person know of their interest, not try to trick them into a situation of isolation.

His actions reminds me of how a pedophile lures a young child into a car. Sure she was older than a child, but I think she was brave to admit to her naivete in this situation.

As to what to do, if anything, that is the question. It is painful for Anonymous to have to be the bearer of bad news, no one really wants to hear it. Sometimes the bearer of bad news is blamed for the actions of the other person.

If it is possible for this victim to get a restraining order on this person, that would be a step in the right direction. I would think such a thing would exist in England. I think a police report would be in order also. In case he assaults her again, she would at least be able to reference the earlier report. I think after the fact would be better than none.

A rape crisis center should be able to help her with resources.

This person thinks he is justified in some way for what happened. I think it's important that he knows it's unacceptable behavior.

If you need a reason why, think that with the age difference (sounds like it is substantial to me) it could be a teenager next. It could be rape or worse next. I think the victim simply needs to make it known that this did happen, and let what else happens happen. It was not her fault.
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Old 08-04-2007, 10:11 AM   #70
Basia Halliop
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Re: Need some advice.

Quote:
You can press all the charges you want for whatever reason, but at the end of the day, it's only vengeance. You can't erase what happens.
I'm not sure this is true at all... authorities can try to figure out if he's a risk to others, or they can talk to him and if he's truly just stupid, give him the shock of realizing what the law is and how far he overstepped human decency or whatever. There's hopefully a lot more to police and other authorities than 'vengeance'. What about the responsibilities of citizens to protect the public? Otherwise what's supposed to stop him acting any differently the next time he meets someone?

Even if after talking to the police she still decides not to press charges or pursue the matter further, better to hear that from the police then from some person on the internet, plus they can give her better advice on what to do in the future.
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Old 08-04-2007, 10:21 AM   #71
Adam Alexander
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Re: Need some advice.

Quote:
Basia Halliop wrote: View Post
I'm not sure this is true at all... authorities can try to figure out if he's a risk to others, or they can talk to him and if he's truly just stupid, give him the shock of realizing what the law is and how far he overstepped human decency or whatever. There's hopefully a lot more to police and other authorities than 'vengeance'. What about the responsibilities of citizens to protect the public? Otherwise what's supposed to stop him acting any differently the next time he meets someone?

Even if after talking to the police she still decides not to press charges or pursue the matter further, better to hear that from the police then from some person on the internet, plus they can give her better advice on what to do in the future.
I'd rather see women making better decisions than using the law to reduce the liklihood of repercussions for other women making poor choices.
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Old 08-04-2007, 12:00 PM   #72
Qatana
 
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Re: Need some advice.

Adam, Im curious to how you believe this should have been handled, and if your response would be any different if the Original Poster had told the Exact Same story, but was a younger, smaller Man instead of a younger, smaller woman?

Last edited by Qatana : 08-04-2007 at 12:04 PM.

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Old 08-04-2007, 12:41 PM   #73
Amelia Smith
 
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Re: Need some advice.

I'm also a latecomer to the discussion, but wanted to weigh in on a couple of issues.

1. Reporting incidents like this is not primarily about vengance, as least it doe -- it's a way of keeping oneself and others safer in the future.

2. To those of you who are saying she should just take care of this herself, and not involve others, would you say the same to the victim of a car accident? Suppose someone were a bit tired one day, and stepped into the crosswalk without looking both ways. A car clipped him/her, enough to hurt badly, but not enough to be permanently dissabling. Should the pedestrian have looked both ways? Yes. Should the driver be held responsible? Definitely. If the driver has a history of endangering pedestrians, his or her liscence should be taken away.

It's not a perfect analogy, because the driver in that case isn't being intentionally deceptive or malicious, just careless with others' lives.

3. I think the guy should be asked to leave the dojo.

Anon, I hope you're doing all right, and I wish you well in the healing process. Don't be afraid to ask for help, or just take time for yourself if you need it.
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Old 08-04-2007, 02:12 PM   #74
jennifer paige smith
 
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Re: Need some advice.

This is Fu8743 (that spells a bad word).

Key words that apply:
Behaviour Grooming (a well developed process of manipulation)
Rape/ Violation ( spelled a little bit like violence, in'nt it?)
Shame and Emabarssment ( tools of a predator.. )
Predator (taking your flesh without your consent)
Responsibility ( to report) he is responsible for the crime and you are reponsible for the follow through.

Post Traumatic Stress Disorder - The language you are using to blame yourself in the aftermath of this terrible personal violation is a symptom of PTSD.

Healing- what you will experience when you recognize that you were hurt.

Acceptance- what I feel for you.

I'm sorry life is unkind at times. Training is an amazing tool for dealing with life, even the life that training sometimes brings.

By the way, this same thing happened to me when I was twelve. It took me years to break through the painful glass that surrounded the violation and to recognize it for what it was: a personal assault on my well being.
It took a similar situation in my old dojo, 4 years ago, to help me walk through this and come to terms with my independent responses and power. I survived and so will you.

Last edited by jennifer paige smith : 08-04-2007 at 02:23 PM.

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Old 08-04-2007, 03:15 PM   #75
JAMJTX
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Re: Need some advice.

I can only echo the words already expressed: Report it to the police.

He will do this again to someone else and may even push it farther with the next person.

You should also not feel like it was your fault or you did anything wrong. You were preyed upon by a manipulating older person who knew he could take advantage of you. I'm also sure he knew that you would not report him. Please prove him wrong in that regard.

The only thing I was surprised to read about was that you got back in the car with him. This put you in a very dangerous situation. He could have very easily attacked you in the car where you could not get away, or driven you to an even more isolated place. If anyone is ever in a similar situation, don't get in the car again. Don't take this as a lecture on how another assault would have been your fault for getting in the car again. It wouldn't have been. Just please learn that lesson and don't get in the car.

Jim Mc Coy
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