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Old 07-26-2007, 03:07 PM   #1
David Orange
Dojo: Aozora Dojo
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The Leather Man

Okay. I think I see what's what.

All this talk about the fascia has become clear, but it's so simple I don't know why no one has stated it quite clearly here yet.

Mike did come close when he described the fascia as a "suit" under the skin, but it was also a misdirecting comment, so I didn't connect with it.

The importance of the fascia is this: it is a semi-independent system that permeates almost the entire human body. It wraps the outside of our internal organs and wraps the inside of the abdomen. It also wraps every muscle of the body and every joint.

But the ingenious thing about the fascia is that it is all all alive and all connected. That makes it the only real whole-body system we have--other than the skin.

Up until now, I have not realized that the entire fascia system is a single unity. I have been looking at it more muscle-by-muscle, as in an anatomical illustration. But realizing that it is a unified system makes a big difference.

AND: the fascia system has "whole-body knowledge" that is shared instantly throughout the entire fascia system. What is known in one part of the fascia is known throughout the entire fascia system.

So the fascia is not like the muscles, not like the bones and not like the skin. It is so completely a "different animal" than any other part of our body that it becomes almost a "person within a person" in a whole-being sense. The fascia is a whole being within our being. It's not entirely separate, but it is unique and has its own nature, which I will explore further in a moment.

Suffice it to say that the discussions from Dan, Mike and Rob all seem to resolve around the idea of using the entire fascia system at once in a unified system to increase one's power. And because this increase of power is carried out through this invisible system of connective tissue, it is called "internal power."

Dan seems to be working largely with that and "winding" exercises.

Mike seems to be using the fascia in a similar way but he may miss some elements of the true nature of the fascia. He seems to be working largely from self-taught bases instead of from a real baseline--otherwise, I think he could have explained this central concept more clearly.

Rob/Aunkai seem to be oriented to preparing the frame to support such fascial work. Since it is a subtle effect, the fascial manipulation could gradually break down a body that is not correctly aligned to support those stresses--subtle as they are.

So here it is: picture Morihei Ueshiba standing before you. Imagine him completely nude, standing as he feels comfortable.

Now imagine him with his skin gone, so that we can see the muscles. Now imagine that all the muscles disappear, but the bones and internal organs remain in place, as if the muscles were still there. The blood and vessels remain, the nerves remain and the fascia remain.

Now imagine that the bones are gone and the fascia, blood vessels, internal organs, etc. all remain where they would be as Morihei stands as he feels comfortable.

Now imagine that everything is gone but the fascia, itself, remaining exactly where it was when Morihei stood in whole body.

So now you're looking at only the fascia of Morihei Ueshiba, standing like a man. You will notice that this is not really a "suit" but more something like a sponge, with empty places held inside convolutions of the tissue. This is where the internal organs were held. There are spaces where every muscle would be, so that Morihei's fascia forms something like a hollow man--not a full-body empty suit, but an entire layer of the body's tissues. The internal organs, the muscles and bones and every other part of the human body are embedded in the fascial layer of the body.

So see Morihei's full fascia body, standing before us like a man made of leather, and realize that that tissue is alive in its own right. It has feeling and it is full of ki. And when one part of the fascia feels something, the entire system of the fascia feels it because it is purely connective.

The entire discussion of "this stuff" or "internal mechanics" really involves using that entire fascial being to augment the efforts of the muscles and bones. Most people think of using their muscles to move their bones to execute techniques and this can be enhanced by various exercises to strengthen both muscle and bone.

But since the fascia is not like muscle and cannot be made to contract or expand by sheer will, like a muscle, it will take a lot of deep thought to see just how the fascia system could augment power and just how it could be exercised to do that.

Isn't that the essence of the discussion?

David

Last edited by David Orange : 07-26-2007 at 03:12 PM.

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

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Old 07-26-2007, 03:33 PM   #2
Franco
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Re: The Leather Man

I think that the fascia not only surrounds muscles, but also interpenetrates them.

At least that's what wikipedia says about it

Quote:
Deep fascia is the dense fibrous connective tissue that interpenetrates and surrounds the muscles, bones, nerves and blood vessels of the body.
Quote:
Fascia is an uninterrupted, three-dimensional web of tissue that extends from head to toe, from front to back, from interior to exterior. It is responsible for maintaining structural integrity; for providing support and protection; and acts as a shock absorber.
Quote:
Deep fascia can contract. What happens during the fight-or-flight response is an example of rapid fascial contraction . In response to a real or imagined threat to the organism, the body responds with a temporary increase in the stiffness of the fascia. Bolstered with tensioned fascia, people are able to perform extraordinary feats of strength and speed under emergency conditions. How fascia contracts is still not well understood...

Last edited by Franco : 07-26-2007 at 03:36 PM.
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Old 07-26-2007, 04:05 PM   #3
Mike Sigman
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Re: The Leather Man

Quote:
David Orange wrote: View Post
Mike seems to be using the fascia in a similar way but he may miss some elements of the true nature of the fascia. He seems to be working largely from self-taught bases instead of from a real baseline--otherwise, I think he could have explained this central concept more clearly.
Gee, David.... I can point you to similar posts by people who suddenly began to see a glimmer of understanding about the same topic. Posts where suddenly they begin to understand for the first time and they understand so well with the first intuitive guess of theirs that they can also tell me that I don't really understand. In fact, the posts I can point you to were made about 10 years ago. Peter Lim comes to mind as a good example of someone who suddenly got a clue and at the same moment decided his clue was far more intelligent than my years of practice, demonstrable skills, etc. I'm simply amazed at how obviously dumb I am to some people. Maybe that's why I'm so picky about who I'll share things with? Go see Dan, David. Enjoy yourself.

Regards,

Mike Sigman
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Old 07-26-2007, 06:30 PM   #4
David Orange
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Re: The Leather Man

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
Gee, David.... I can point you to similar posts by people who suddenly began to see a glimmer of understanding about the same topic. Posts where suddenly they begin to understand for the first time and they understand so well with the first intuitive guess of theirs that they can also tell me that I don't really understand.
Hey, I'm just going by the way you explain what you're doing. It's never been really clear. I just finally noticed the distinction between the muscle sensation and the fascial sensation. I never thought of it as a separate complete system. You obviously have, but why didn't you mention some of the things I posted above? Major things such as the live sensitivity of the entire fascial system and its ability to know instantly as a whole system? Your illustration of the inflatable suit was less than approximate. So I wonder if you've been posting to "share" or to "hint at" things. Or to goad people into mentioning something you've been looking for.

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
Peter Lim comes to mind as a good example of someone who suddenly got a clue and at the same moment decided his clue was far more intelligent than my years of practice, demonstrable skills, etc.
Well, first things first: what happened to Peter Lim? Second, I don't think that my clue is far more intelligent than your years of practice, but if what you're really trying to do is "share," I'd think you would just make it plain what you're talking about.

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
I'm simply amazed at how obviously dumb I am to some people.
If you listened more to me, you'd be more aware of that.

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
Maybe that's why I'm so picky about who I'll share things with?
What are you here for?

Thanks.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.davidorangejr.com
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Old 07-26-2007, 06:42 PM   #5
DH
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Re: The Leather Man

David
That was kind a' wierd man.
You don't know how I train.
I show people things at their level- not my own. I discuss my own training with only a few of my own people.
You don't know how Ark trains
The video's are surface material for others
You don't know how Mike trains either
He doesn't say squat about his own regimen.

I'm glad you read about fascia and fascial sheeting. But in all honesty..Knowing about it won't get you anywhere. With the right kind of instruction I'll see ya in 5 years, maybe, juuuust maybe you'll have a little something. Without it, you'll be right back here ..talking...about fascia.
Personally, other then laying out a roadmap, I don't talk about it much at the beginning. Steps and progression, steps and progression. And the "winding" I talk about is on different levels. Without starting one, you'll never get to the other. One, method-while being internal- is not so internal as the other. And some winding I've seen is no more internal than dance, pilates or gyrotonics. Which while being good for some things...aint gonna get you anywhere martially.
I am confused why you say it has never been brought up. Its been brought up many, many, times. I don't wan't to interfere with your love fest with Mike, But Mike has brought it up countless times. Its very wierd to hear you ask why he hasn't brought it up. I've made a few posts about it as well and talked about some of the aspects of it as a whole body distribution system. Where -you- been bud?

Last edited by DH : 07-26-2007 at 06:53 PM.
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Old 07-26-2007, 07:29 PM   #6
Mike Sigman
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Re: The Leather Man

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
David
That was kind a' wierd man.
You don't know how I train.
I show people things at their level- not my own. I discuss my own training with only a few of my own people.
[snip]I'm glad you read about fascia and fascial sheeting. But in all honesty..Knowing about it won't get you anywhere. With the right kind of instruction I'll see ya in 5 years, maybe, juuuust maybe you'll have a little something. Without it, you'll be right back here ..talking...about fascia.
Personally, other then laying out a roadmap, I don't talk about it much at the beginning.
You know, this is the kind of horn-blowing crap that I find objectionable, Dan. You have never been able (and I say that with justification) to answer straightforward questions about skills, you've never given any direct and functional explanations of how to do things, your posts tend to be more self-brag about where you are and what you can do, and so forth. People I know who know you describe the fact that you have some jin skills but it's pretty muscular. Insofar as you knowing stuff that's 10-years down the road from someone about fascia and qi training, that's something you might need think about before you post it publicly... it's harder than you think and you can't just BS your way into expertise.

Again, bear in mind that I couldn't care less about your own claims about yourself, as long as you don't have a long-term negative effect on someone else. As someone noted on Aikido Journal, your posts look like advertisements for Dan Harden. What I object to... or perhaps it's more like "I feel it necessary to point out that you've never indicated anything in your posts that warrants the claims of multi-year expertise" (in fact, I hear that most of your stuff and revelations are pretty recent).... is that same caution I'd point out to any really searching people when someone talks more about themselves than the subject at hand. Give us some real facts and it'll change that part of the discussion.

The main point I object to is this idea that you're the solution to peoples' problems in an oblique put-down manner. David, regardless of my personal take on him, is still someone who is just as capable of learning things as you are. Talking to him like you're on some lordly level of accomplishment is simply over the top. You're a beginner. You're figuring some of this stuff out for yourself and you really didn't get that much from DR. Good for you. But keep the ego in check and see if perhaps you can make a valid discussion around what you substantively can express about the subject and how to do it.... not around what great skills you have in relation to people who are honestly just trying to get information.

If you have something substantive that you can say, either to assist people or to counter my inference that you don't really know much, why don't you do so? In principle, David is going in the right direction. Whether it's important that you need to insert your own great heights of accomplishment into the discussion is questionable. Tell us what David should really know, etc., what he should look for, information sources, how to start, etc. I.e., try to address the issue dispassionately and without so much noise about how full your cup is.

Regards,

Mike Sigman
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Old 07-26-2007, 07:38 PM   #7
David Orange
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Re: The Leather Man

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
David
That was kind a' wierd man.
You don't know how I train.
Well, that's what I'm trying to ascertain--make sure I'm on the same page, at least in general.

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
You don't know how Ark trainsThe video's are surface material for others
Most of my ideas about Ark come from the Aunkai website, where there is a good bit of presentation and explanation. I just get the sense that the "structure" is made for balancing the whole systems of bone, muscle, fascia, etc. Again, I made these statements to get some responses and think about them.

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
I'm glad you read about fascia and fascial sheeting. But in all honesty..Knowing about it won't get you anywhere.
Well, I didn't read about it. I became aware of it through direct experience while doing Feldenkrais. I recognized the difference between the muscle relaxing and the fascia opening and I came to several recognitions of how the fascia works as a whole unit.

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
With the right kind of instruction I'll see ya in 5 years, maybe, juuuust maybe you'll have a little something.
I have to say, I feel better, already. I don't feel like a super martial man yet, but I'm thinking about how it all fits together.

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Personally, other then laying out a roadmap, I don't talk about it much at the beginning.
What kind of roadmap do you lay out at the beginning?

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
...the "winding" I talk about is on different levels. Without starting one, you'll never get to the other. One, method-while being internal- is not so internal as the other. And some winding I've seen is no more internal than dance, pilates or gyrotonics.
Well I am interested in what you mean by "winding."

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
I am confused why you say it has never been brought up. Its been brought up many, many, times....Mike has brought it up countless times. Its very wierd to hear you ask why he hasn't brought it up. I've made a few posts about it as well and talked about some of the aspects of it as a whole body distribution system. Where -you- been bud?
Your recent references to a whole-body distribution system came right back to me when I felt the different systems working and I realized what you meant, then. I also realized what Mike was refering to in the "suit under the skin" reference. B.K. Frantzis also contributed to that recognition with comments he has made on the subject. But I don't think any of you has really pointed out
kind of unified system that it really is. Following Mike's "suit" comments, your reference to a load distribution system (and, I think, a general muscular tonus moderator) did point me there. But it was in Feldenkrais that I actually felt that system in operation and sensed more directly its nature.

Thanks.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.davidorangejr.com
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Old 07-26-2007, 07:38 PM   #8
Mike Sigman
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Re: The Leather Man

Quote:
David Orange wrote: View Post
Hey, I'm just going by the way you explain what you're doing. It's never been really clear.
To you. Some things have been clear to other people; you don't represent the consensus of views on this or any other forum.
Quote:
I just finally noticed the distinction between the muscle sensation and the fascial sensation. I never thought of it as a separate complete system. You obviously have, but why didn't you mention some of the things I posted above?
I posted some pretty important information (well, my *opinion* of what is important, anyway) for people trying to find out the best way to get started and the general perspective that helps in the startup. What do you want? A textbook suited to you personally? My apologies that I haven't given enough, in your opinion. Sorry I didn't do it the way you wanted me to. And thanks for the thanks.
Quote:
Major things such as the live sensitivity of the entire fascial system and its ability to know instantly as a whole system? Your illustration of the inflatable suit was less than approximate. So I wonder if you've been posting to "share" or to "hint at" things. Or to goad people into mentioning something you've been looking for.
How about if you still don't quite understand, but you're trying to fault what I've said in the past based on your current, incomplete understanding? Consider all sides of it. No, no.... better yet, insult me into giving you information; that always works. Not.
Quote:
Well, first things first: what happened to Peter Lim? Second, I don't think that my clue is far more intelligent than your years of practice, but if what you're really trying to do is "share," I'd think you would just make it plain what you're talking about.
Sorry my contributions, which you've ignored in the past, now don't quite meet your expectations, David. Good luck in finding people to show you things using your rather unique approach. You'll find that you get just what you pay for.
Quote:
What are you here for?
Er........ to please you and Mochizuki?

Regards,

Mike Sigman
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Old 07-26-2007, 08:50 PM   #9
DH
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Re: The Leather Man

Reading you is funnier than watching stand up, Mike.
You... would caution others about me?? You've been doing that for years now. Go for it! Here, let me help. "No one should call me, or come here, or ask me to show them anything. Go elsewhere.
As for me trying to "B.S my way into expertise?" Well thanks, Mike, But I think you sling enough B.S. to cover any 100 martial artists. Only one of us has videos, articles, seminars, thousands of posts. They speak volumes about both your intentions and your ego.
I've said it before I'll say it again "Everyone can go wherever they want and train with anyone they can and make up their own minds.

It's always interesting to see you engage in so many personal attacks, while you cry foul at the slightest hint others aim your way.. Many have gotten wise to your baiting and inconsistencies.

Here's your own advice-just now given to David- which I'll address to you.
"How about if you still don't quite understand, but you're trying to fault what I've said in the past based on your .... understanding? Consider all sides of it. No, no.... better yet, insult me into giving you information; that always works. Not.

Last edited by DH : 07-26-2007 at 09:04 PM.
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Old 07-26-2007, 09:08 PM   #10
Mike Sigman
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Re: The Leather Man

Gee, Dan... somehow I knew you weren't going to post anything about "fascia", etc., to make it clear that you really know this stuff. I've done everything but but "double-dog dare you" to write some actual substantive "how it works" stuff over the last couple of years and you have NEVER been able to do it. You go to personalities every time. If that's the best you can do, you don't qualify to tell people how many years behind you they are. Here's another good topic... tell David (and others) something useful; not how far behind you everyone is. No tickee, no washee.

Regards,

Mike Sigman
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Old 07-26-2007, 09:47 PM   #11
DH
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Re: The Leather Man

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
Gee, Dan... .....You go to personalities every time.
Regards,
Mike Sigman
Sigh..you mean like this, Mike?

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
......this is the kind of horn-blowing crap
.....it's harder than you think and you can't just BS your way into expertise.
.....as long as you don't have a long-term negative effect on someone else.
.....your posts look like advertisements for Dan Harden.
.... you're on some lordly level of accomplishment is simply over the top.
.....what great skills you have
......insert your own great heights of accomplishment into the discussion is questionable.
......much noise about how full your cup is.

Regards,
Mike Sigman
I think you should try and contribute something to the discussion, Mike rather then display your never-ending need to try and convince people you are ahead of them every chance you get. Like in the above comment ".....it's harder than you think and you can't just BS your way into expertise."
You're a self-admitted amateur and researcher, a little humility would do -you- well,

Last edited by DH : 07-26-2007 at 10:01 PM.
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Old 07-27-2007, 12:13 AM   #12
Aran Bright
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Re: The Leather Man

Quote:
David Orange wrote: View Post
The entire discussion of "this stuff" or "internal mechanics" really involves using that entire fascial being to augment the efforts of the muscles and bones. Most people think of using their muscles to move their bones to execute techniques and this can be enhanced by various exercises to strengthen both muscle and bone.
I think your on to something there.

The only thing that I would like to add is that many anatomist think that there are more nerve receptors in the fascial tissues than there are in the muscle tissues. What I infer from this is that if you focus your attention on the fascial tissues you can gain more feedback on the movements of your body than from the muscle or bony tissues.

Principles about relaxation may have a lot to do with awareness of the fascial tissues.

Just a few thoughts,

Aran

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Old 07-27-2007, 07:18 AM   #13
Mike Sigman
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Re: The Leather Man

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
You're a self-admitted amateur and researcher, a little humility would do -you- well,
Well, there you go, then.... I'm not putting people down or listing great things I can do in posts, Dan, so it's pretty unclear what you're trying to say. I'd suggest though that a bigger number of people have watched your posts over the years and what you have to say about yourself than you think. Don't talk about you. Don't talk about me. Talk about how to do the issue. Notice how I keep suggesting this time and time again. The fact that you can't really do an intelligent commentary seems to be fairly well established.... ergo, my point that I was making seems to be justified: you are not in a position to tell other people how many years you are ahead of them, so it's rude and beside the point to do so.

So... again.... here's a great topic for you to give David a reply with some basics, just to show that you really know the subject. Let's see what you can do with it.

Regards,

Mike Sigman
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Old 07-27-2007, 08:20 AM   #14
DH
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Re: The Leather Man

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
Well, there you go, then.... I'm not putting people down or listing great things I can do in posts, Dan, so it's pretty unclear what you're trying to say. I'd suggest though that a bigger number of people have watched your posts over the years and what you have to say about yourself than you think. Don't talk about you. Don't talk about me. Talk about how to do the issue. Notice how I keep suggesting this time and time again. The fact that you can't really do an intelligent commentary seems to be fairly well established.... ergo, my point that I was making seems to be justified: you are not in a position to tell other people how many years you are ahead of them, so it's rude and beside the point to do so.

So... again.... here's a great topic for you to give David a reply with some basics, just to show that you really know the subject. Let's see what you can do with it.

Regards,

Mike Sigman
I have replied in the past and just recently was thanked for some of the tips- go find em. I continue to share in person.
While you're on to talking about personalities ...again. I will say you are steadfast in telling people they don't know and then insinuating you are ahead of them and can OK their information or their work. Calling me for doing the same things is just hilarious. Your just fly by the seat of your pants when you post dontcha? Other than historical background you have never once given out anything but hints, at rather simple, basic, information. By your own standards, we'll just assume that's all you're capable of.
Why don't you focus your attention and write something meangingful about how to's, to help people out instead of just once again going to personalities.
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Old 07-27-2007, 08:52 AM   #15
Ron Tisdale
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Re: The Leather Man

Yikes.

Not getting into the Mike and Dan show. Either one could kick my butt.

David, both Mike and Dan have posts archived on aikido journal, e-budo and probably here talking about the facial tissue stuff, the body suit, etc. It was one of the first things Mike talked to me about in email over 2 years ago.

I still can't **do** squat.

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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Old 07-27-2007, 08:55 AM   #16
Mike Sigman
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Re: The Leather Man

Gee, I just looked. No one has removed any of my posts with pictures, diagrams, instructions, etc. The closest thing I find to any "explanation" from you is more about doing exercises, but doesn't explain the mechanics of how the internal strength components work at all. Heck, I could teach in great detail how to do a Tai Chi form or push-hands and still never tell anyone how the internal strength components are done or developed. This isn't a very deep problem with your posts, Dan, that takes forever to figure out... you have not described how to do any aspect of internal strength. And your comments that I haven't shown anything are blatantly offset by the posts that are still available. Try arguing facts and assume that the reading audience is smarter than children, please.

But again you've posted and answered nothing. You indicate that people like David are years behind you, particularly in the breath/fascia work. Did you forget that it's only been a few months since you posted you were just looking into these things yourself? In less than 6 months you're telling people it will take them years to arrive near you. How does that work? And if it's true, BTW and once again, all you need to do is pick some area of the discussion and explain it clearly. See if you can put me on the spot, Dan.... but most of all, see if you can for once discuss the topic in a how to mode; don't confuse "here's an exercise we do" with "here's how the mechanics work".

All the Best.

Mike Sigman
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Old 07-27-2007, 09:13 AM   #17
Mike Sigman
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Re: The Leather Man

Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote: View Post
David, both Mike and Dan have posts archived on aikido journal, e-budo and probably here talking about the facial tissue stuff, the body suit, etc. It was one of the first things Mike talked to me about in email over 2 years ago.
Actually, there are archived posts on the old Neijia List with some of my commentaries from the early-mid 1990's. I can grab a couple pretty easily and I'll be happy to do it if it will help prod Dan into discussing his facts and his sources. I'm getting pretty clear indications that some of Dan's implied koryu sources don't acknowledge him, so the sources question (in light of his own claims) is important.

Incidentally, Dan may try to state that I'm "self-taught", but I'm not. I've had a number of bona fide teachers over a number of years and I'll be glad to name them, what I learned from them, etc., if Dan wants to do the same.

Recently Dan claimed to have been talking about the fascia aspect 10 years ago. I don't believe it. It's not discussed in any Japanese sources that I know of; what little there is is oral-transmission stuff and you have to do more than attend a few workshops to get that. I'd like to see a bona fide source. I'm getting kind of curious why Dan's vocabulary and buzzwords really seem so recent, so this would be a good way to support his contention that he's known and done the fascia stuff for 10 years, yet he indicated he's just trying to figure out the breath (fascia) stuff recently. This stuff is beginning to remind me of one of my old favorite books, "Dan of a Thousand Faces".

Best way to discuss all of these things? Lay out your cards. If you know how to do something, you can describe it well. Period. If you're just feeling your way around, you'll have fuzzy descriptions.

Someone wants to hide the fact that he's gotten a little information and is desperately trying to act like he has a lot... isn't that the very thing that got so many people into trouble in the first place in western m.a.'s? And isn't that the reason that the knowledge of these basics got so hindered in western martial arts?

Dan, your "I gotta keep the sacred secrets of my koryu" stuff doesn't fly and hasn't flown, with a number of people, for some time. If you want to discuss ki, kokyu, (fascia is an inextricable part of all that), then do so. Deal a card and quit just talking about what a great card-player you are.

Regards,

Mike Sigman
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Old 07-27-2007, 10:07 AM   #18
ChrisHein
 
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Re: The Leather Man

I'm just glad all this is getting out. It's been pissing me off for months now.

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Old 07-27-2007, 10:28 AM   #19
DH
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Re: The Leather Man

Pretty desperate for information eh Mike? Spending all this time and effort. You got an ego as big as the outdoors man. I read the Neijia list in its entirety and other than being a perfect ass there too, I read no "great information" from you or anyone else. All I read was argument over approach and terminology. I did read where you stated you deliberately goad and chastise people to get them to talk and give information. I have it saved somewhere.

How about contributing to the thread hopefully in a better way than you did in the other breath thread ..telling folks to draw in with the dantien and then...relax. Talk about misinformation.
Yeah you, If you want to try and teach and talk about fascia on the internet knock yourself out.

Last edited by DH : 07-27-2007 at 10:41 AM.
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Old 07-27-2007, 10:44 AM   #20
Mike Sigman
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Re: The Leather Man

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
How about contributing to the thread hopefully in a better way than you did in the other breath thread ..telling folks to draw in with the dantien and then...relax. Talk about misinformation.
Perfect. As good a factual issue as any. Except show me what I said (give us the exact post... something you've been known to run from when asked in the past, BTW) and then, when you've laid out the quote, tell me exactly what is wrong with what I said. That's how you do it, Dan. Good start.... now follow through factually.
Quote:
I read was argument over approach and terminology. I did read where you stated you deliberately goad and chastise people to get them to talk and give information. I have it saved somewhere.
Like established, reputable teachers with known reputations, Dan... if I want real information. If I want to see if some guy is as good as he claims he is, I'll do it, too... but not because I think they have any real information. But let's see your facts as in the above "call".


Regards,

Mike Sigman

Last edited by Mike Sigman : 07-27-2007 at 10:47 AM.
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Old 07-27-2007, 11:52 AM   #21
Timothy WK
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Re: The Leather Man

Sooo... moving back to the original question.

David, I'm not sure the issue is quite as simple as it sounds in your post. I'm not really qualified to answer your questions, but I'll share my experience.

I'm not sure that the fascia is inherently "unified". To begin with, there are different types and/or layers of fascia that serve different functions. I don't believe anyone knows for sure exactly what's happening inside our bodies. Are we only activating one function in one layer/type, or are we accessing different functions throughout different types/layers? If so, how do these different layers/types interact?

Also, my experience is that whole-body movement doesn't just happen. It has to be developed. It *seems* from my beginner experience and from watching the other students in my class, that when ki-/fasica-based movement begins to manifest, it's still fairly localized. It seems to take a little bit before the movement connects to other parts of the body.

For example, I can move my fingers without utilizing muscle. It doesn't take much to feel this movement in the forearms. But it's taken a little time to begin feeling the connection/tension in my upper arms and shoulders. (And I assume it will continue to "grow" into my back & chest.)

It is possible, of course, that this movement is actually unified/connected, and it's just too weak at the moment to feel. I can only talk about how I feel.

I've also received conflicting information on whether the fascia can contract on its own or not. I need to do some more talking with one of doctor friends.

Last edited by Timothy WK : 07-27-2007 at 11:56 AM.

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Old 07-27-2007, 05:41 PM   #22
DH
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Re: The Leather Man

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
Like established, reputable teachers with known reputations, Dan... if I want real information.
Regards,
Mike Sigman
Well I agree. Which is why, as many have already noted, I don't pursue information from you...the way you have from me.

Try to constrain yourself to talking (down) to others, Mike. We don't get along and our interactions do not bring out the best of either of us.
Good luck in your search and training pursuits.
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Old 07-27-2007, 05:52 PM   #23
Mike Sigman
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Re: The Leather Man

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
I don't pursue information from you...the way you have from me.
In other words, you don't have any information. Mine's on record. Yours is actually on record, too, but you seem to think that if only a few people know your background you're safe. You need to quit hanging around with known bozo's.

Regards,

Mike Sigman
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Old 07-27-2007, 06:29 PM   #24
Mike Sigman
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Re: The Leather Man

Wait, wait, Dan.... you know so much. I want to learn from you. Please post some nugget that's out of reach for a poor mortal like me. Then let's bet everything I own on whether I can blow it out of the water. Bet???????????????

Regards,

Mike "Trying to be as humble as Dan" Sigman
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Old 07-27-2007, 09:54 PM   #25
Aran Bright
Dojo: Griffith Aikido Yuishinkai
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Re: The Leather Man

Quote:
Timothy Walters Kleinert wrote: View Post
Sooo... moving back to the original question.

David, I'm not sure the issue is quite as simple as it sounds in your post. I'm not really qualified to answer your questions, but I'll share my experience.

I'm not sure that the fascia is inherently "unified". To begin with, there are different types and/or layers of fascia that serve different functions. I don't believe anyone knows for sure exactly what's happening inside our bodies. Are we only activating one function in one layer/type, or are we accessing different functions throughout different types/layers? If so, how do these different layers/types interact?

Also, my experience is that whole-body movement doesn't just happen. It has to be developed. It *seems* from my beginner experience and from watching the other students in my class, that when ki-/fasica-based movement begins to manifest, it's still fairly localized. It seems to take a little bit before the movement connects to other parts of the body.

For example, I can move my fingers without utilizing muscle. It doesn't take much to feel this movement in the forearms. But it's taken a little time to begin feeling the connection/tension in my upper arms and shoulders. (And I assume it will continue to "grow" into my back & chest.)

It is possible, of course, that this movement is actually unified/connected, and it's just too weak at the moment to feel. I can only talk about how I feel.

I've also received conflicting information on whether the fascia can contract on its own or not. I need to do some more talking with one of doctor friends.
Hi Timothy,

I would try to milk as much information from your doctor friends as you can but the problem is that there is a gap in what is generally understood by anatomists, doctors and such and what can actually be done by martial artists, healers etc. I am sure that there are explanations for eveything but relying on information from the mainstream doesn't fill in all the gaps.

If I can do a little finger pointing at Mike's explanations I have trouble swallowing it sometimes from a scientific point of view, but from a martial arts point of view they make a lot of sense, even over the internet. In a sense we do need our own langauge that can be explained as well as possible through anatomical terms but know that they don't quite match up.

My two bob,

Aran

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