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Old 08-19-2007, 05:43 PM   #126
Mike Sigman
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Re: A President's Thought

An opinion piece from "Commondreams" is "from the middle"? You accuse Bush of being a murderer and a sociopath. You assert it, but you give no cites (unless you call the Far Left "commondreams" opinions a cite). Do you think you're making a truly rational argument which shows that Bush has more problems than you do?

Mike Sigman
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Old 08-19-2007, 05:44 PM   #127
Guilty Spark
 
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Re: A President's Thought

Why is shock and awe a bad thing?

If you're hungry, keep moving.
If you're tired, keep moving.
If you value you're life, keep moving.

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Old 08-19-2007, 06:23 PM   #128
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Re: A President's Thought

Recently there was an accident in S. American where 3 Brazilians were injured.

Bush got the news. The footage of him shows him deeply concerned, thinking about it for 30 seconds, until he turned to his assistant and asked 'Just how large a number is a brazillian anyway?'


A secret of internal strength?:
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Old 08-19-2007, 07:50 PM   #129
David Orange
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Re: A President's Thought

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
An opinion piece from "Commondreams" is "from the middle"?
No, Mike. The quote came from the middle of the linked article.

Is that clear?

And that article was simply the first of bunches that came up when I googled "Bush + executions". I haven't tried "Bush + Carla Fay Tucker" of just "Carla Fay Tucker," as I will do later tonight.

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
You accuse Bush of being a murderer and a sociopath. You assert it, but you give no cites (unless you call the Far Left "commondreams" opinions a cite). Do you think you're making a truly rational argument which shows that Bush has more problems than you do?
Anyone rational in American society has already recognized it. What's his approval rating now? Only those actually inside "the bubble" still give him any credence at all. Look up the definition of "sociopath." If it doesn't have his picture, the description will match him nonetheless.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

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Old 08-19-2007, 07:53 PM   #130
David Orange
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Re: A President's Thought

Quote:
Grant Wagar wrote: View Post
Why is shock and awe a bad thing?
Supposedly a "precision" campaign, I doubt that it really spared the innocent. And even if it did (like it did), it failed its purpose and everything since then has been a clusterfub. Bush has betrayed the US, the US military, every serviceman and woman, every institution of government and everyone except the super-wealthy, who simply don't know how he has screwed them yet.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.esotericorange.com
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Old 08-19-2007, 07:55 PM   #131
David Orange
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Re: A President's Thought

Quote:
Justin Smith wrote: View Post
Recently there was an accident in S. American where 3 Brazilians were injured.

Bush got the news. The footage of him shows him deeply concerned, thinking about it for 30 seconds, until he turned to his assistant and asked 'Just how large a number is a brazillian anyway?'

In college, Bush worked in a mechanics shop. A woman left her keys in the ignition one day when she left her car for repairs. When she came back, she found Bush working feverishly to unlock the driver's side door. On a whim, she tried the passenger door and found it unlocked.

"It's okay," she said. "This door is open."

"Yeah," Bush said. "I already got that side. This side'll be another minute!"

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.esotericorange.com
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Old 08-19-2007, 08:30 PM   #132
Neil Mick
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Re: the devil can quote scripture...

Quote:
David Orange wrote: View Post
And where did the Scripture call for that?
Does it really matter?

Look, many Islamic adherents call Islam "the religion of peace." And, I have no doubt in my mind that they believe that, and practice it. Many others ALSO call Christianity the religion of peace, as do Jews, with Judaism.

So, who's wrong, here? Which religion is the most "peaceful?" The answer is none of them, because the most loving religion of them all could be turned into a weapon. All it takes is a little spin.

Quote:
You see, that's how easy it is to see that these were Antichristian movements. "Many will come in my name," Jesus said, specifying that they would be deceivers. Nothing about Christianity approves that.
Well, we can agree there that these movements are antithetical to the message of Christianity (as is Dominionism), but still--these groups are examples of humans perverting the religion to their own ends. No religion has the monopoly on peace.

Quote:
Ditto that. There is no call for a Pope in Christian scripture. No allowance for murder.
Some Catholics might be inclined to disagree:

Upon This 'Rock'

Quote:
And I say also to thee, That thou art Peter (Petros), and upon this rock (petra) I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. Matthew 16.18

It is highly likely that Matthew originally wrote his Gospel, or at least some portion thereof, in Hebrew or Aramaic. See Hebrew of Matthew.

It is unknown when Matthew was first translated into Greek, or by whom, or if, perhaps, Matthew himself wrote it also in Greek. Jerome says, "but this was afterwards translated into Greek though by what author is uncertain."

This single verse of Scripture is the foundation upon which is laid all of Rome's claims to papal primacy, pre-eminence, infallibility, jurisdiction, etc. In fact, the very existence of the papacy, as distinct from every other bishopric in the Church, stands or falls upon the validity, or the invalidity, of Rome's interpretation of this verse of Scripture.

According to Rome's interpretation, Peter (gr. petros) and the 'rock' (gr. petra) are one and the same. This, in spite of the fact that the two words carry different meanings.

"In secular Greek pétra denotes a large 'rock,' but also a 'cliff'; or 'rocky mountain chain.' Figuratively it suggests firmness, immovability, and hardness. pétros is more often used for smaller rocks, stones, or pebbles."
Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, by Geoffrey W. Bromily. © 1985 by William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company


Rome says that the reason Peter is called petros is because petros is the masculine form of the feminine noun petra (meaning 'rock'), and it was fitting that Peter's name should be masculine. However, I have never seen them offer an explanation for why the feminine petra is always used in the Scriptures to refer to Christ, but never the masculine petros, which is only used to refer to Peter. I believe it is because, by definition, petra more accurately typifies Christ, while petros more accurately typifies Peter. It is upon the petra that Christ is building his Church.

But Rome claims that, on the basis of this verse of Scripture, Peter is the 'rock' on which Christ is building his Church, and that the honor accorded to Peter alone is the rightful heritage of the bishops of Rome whom, they claim, are the successors of Peter and the 'vicars' of Christ. Further, they claim that, therefore, the bishops of Rome are endowed with primacy over all other bishops, infallibility in doctrines of faith and morals, and supremacy and jurisdiction over all the members of Christ's Body, the Church. See Matthew 16.18 for some examples from Vatican I & II of these claims.
Quote:
David Orange wrote:
You're twisting there, Neil. I only point out dispassionately that no one can murder in the name of Christianity, but passages in the Koran specifically command the follower to murder non-believers.
Quote:
Romans 13:4 King James Version wrote:
For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.
Reeal peaceful, those Christians...but, nevermind.

No, I don't think so. You're making a questionable theological summation that, somehow: Christians are "less violent" than Muslims because Jesus didn't teach violence, while Mohammed did.

Might as well suggest that aikido is a less "peaceful" endeavor than going to church on Sunday: because aikido originated from budo, whereas Christianity originated from more peaceful predecessors (Zoroastrianism, et al. Altho you might make a case against Mithraism, which involved the sacrifice of a bull).

Quote:
David wrote:
How many do you need, Neil? Is one too few? Is two too few?
OK, you're right: wrong emphasis on your quote.

Quote:
David wrote:
However, there are many passages in the Koran and the hadiths that can be construed to demand the murder (literally "murder") of non-believers, Christians, Jews, atheists
"Can be construed?" Exactly. A nutcase can construe his orders from God to mass-murder from the side of a cereal-box; while others construe the words of Mohammed as some sort of ideological struggle.

History belies your presumptions. The Moors treated their minority religions in Spain quite well, for a time (later, they got a little strict with their laws). Christian communities of the time often accused their Jewish minorities of poisoning wells to bring on the Black Death; or drinking infants' blood in their religious rituals, before running them out of town and then stealing their lands.

So, what difference does the "message make?" The important thing is what the messengers do with it.

Quote:
I didn't ignore them. I didn't address them.
Exactly. In your rush to find the emptiness of the glass: you ignore the water-content, as well.

Quote:
haven't addressed nuclear power or fascia in this thread because they are not the point.
Sorry, wrong.

Quote:
The point
according to David

Quote:
is that Muslim scripture calls, in places, for literal murder of non-believers while no scripture in Christianity justifies it and every scripture in Christianity condemns it. People like you
You KNOW you're in trouble, when you begin sentences with these three words.

It's called "stereotyping."

Point of fact, David: there are VERY FEW "people like me."

Just ask anyone who knows me.

Quote:
claim that the calls for murder in Koran either don't exist, were meant for another time or aren't believed. You ignore the many, many calls by Muslim leaders to murder various infidels.
As do you ignore the many, many calls by Muslim leaders to stop the violence.

Quote:
Huh. All Bush had to do was declare Iraq a nation of witches!

As I said, neither Jesus, nor his disciples nor his apostles said that. There were some encounters with witches in the New Testament, but I don't think there were any killings of witches or calls for their murder.

David
And again...what really matters is less what the text says, than how it's interpreted (or, misinterpreted).

Thou Shalt Not Suffer a Witch to Live:

Quote:
"THOU SHALT NOT SUFFER A WITCH TO LIVE." This interpretation of Exodus 22:18 provided encouragement to the witchhunters of the Renaissance, and justified their putting to death those they had identified as witches. Tens of thousands of unfortunates who, in some way or other, had earned for themselves the title "witch" had little hope of mercy when faced with the seemingly unambiguous nature of this command.
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Old 08-19-2007, 09:26 PM   #133
David Orange
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Re: the devil can quote scripture...

Quote:
Neil Mick wrote: View Post
Does it really matter?
Yes, it matters. The scripture defines what a Christian is--the individual does not: even if he is the POPE. If he violates the scripture, as many popes have done, he is no Christian and anyone who follows him is mistaken at best.

But if your scripture calls for you to murder....

Quote:
Neil Mick wrote: View Post
No, I don't think so. You're making a questionable theological summation that, somehow: Christians are "less violent" than Muslims because Jesus didn't teach violence, while Mohammed did.
If they follow Jesus, who said not to kill under any circumstances, then they are less violent than people who kill for any reason--even if those people "call" themselves Christian or whatever they may.

Quote:
Neil Mick wrote: View Post
"Can be construed?" Exactly. A nutcase can construe his orders from God to mass-murder from the side of a cereal-box; while others construe the words of Mohammed as some sort of ideological struggle.
How much construing does this take, Neil?

"[33.60] If the hypocrites and those in whose hearts is a disease and the agitators in the city do not desist, We shall most certainly set you over them, then they shall not be your neighbors in it but for a little while;
[33.61] Cursed: wherever they are found they shall be seized and murdered, a (horrible) murdering.
[33.62] (Such has been) the course of Allah with respect to those who have gone before; and you shall not find any change in the course of Allah."

And that is just the first one I came to. No historical "situation" but a decree over "the hypocrites and those in whose hearts is a disease and the agitators in the city". That is what must be "construed": only the targets of the actions--not the actions themselves. Obviously, it covers such people as Salmaan Rushdie and Van Gogh.

Quote:
Neil Mick wrote: View Post
So, what difference does the "message make?" The important thing is what the messengers do with it.
Garbage. The one who falsely deals with "the message" is a false messenger and bears no reflection whatever on the real message. And the one who diligently bears out the message--even if the message is to kill--is a faithful representative of that message.

Quote:
Neil Mick wrote: View Post
Exactly. In your rush to find the emptiness of the glass: you ignore the water-content, as well.
Nope. It's not the subject. I know muslims. I work with muslims. There are some nice people among them, and very smart people. But that doesn't change what the Koran says.

Quote:
Neil Mick wrote: View Post
Sorry, wrong.

the point according to David
Exactly: the point of MY posts--"is that Muslim scripture calls, in places, for literal murder of non-believers while no scripture in Christianity justifies it and every scripture in Christianity condemns it." I do know what the point of my own posts is. And that is the point I was making. So, sorry: right.

Quote:
Neil Mick wrote: View Post
You KNOW you're in trouble, when you begin sentences with these three words. ("people like you")

It's called "stereotyping."

Point of fact, David: there are VERY FEW "people like me."

Just ask anyone who knows me.
It's a shame you believe that, Neil, because there are too many people just like you to shake a stick at. And the sad thing is that you are protecting the very people who would maim you for life just for being that kind of person. Bush's enemies are much more like Amadinajad's enemies than you think. Amadinajad isn't worried about the KKK or bigots: it's liberals he hates. It's liberals the Taliban hates. It's liberals they want to maim and torture. Bush, Amadinajad, Mullah Omar and Osama are all very similar in that way--which is why I would never count Bush among the Christians.

Quote:
Neil Mick wrote: View Post
And again...what really matters is less what the text says, than how it's interpreted (or, misinterpreted).
Really? So if Bush "misinterprets" the Constitution, it's the misinterpretation that will stand the test of time?

False is false. Those who present false Christianity are false Christians. And those who try to discredit Christianity by pointing to false Christians as examples of Christians are at best fooling themselves.

Quote:
Neil Mick wrote: View Post
Thou Shalt Not Suffer a Witch to Live:

"This interpretation of Exodus 22:18..."
Again, Neil, not said by Jesus, any of his disciples or his apostles. It's not a Christian text, but an old Jewish text. It's the ancient culture from which Christianity came--not Christianity itself. There is nothing, anywhere in Christian scripture that calls for the killing of anyone under any circumstances.

You fault me for "ignoring" all the peaceful stuff in the Koran, but you studiously and laboriously ignore the explicit calls to murder that are there and bend over backward to dig up and misrepresent things about Christianity. Why go to all that trouble to misrepresent both sides? Why not just take the truth of each and accept the truth for the truth?

David

Last edited by David Orange : 08-19-2007 at 09:29 PM.

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.esotericorange.com
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Old 08-19-2007, 11:38 PM   #134
Neil Mick
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Re: the devil can quote scripture...

Quote:
David Orange wrote: View Post
Yes, it matters.
To you. In sum, there is no way to tell which religion spawned the higher body count. And really, who cares...an extremist is an extremist--no matter what religion he chooses to hoist as his flag.

Quote:
The scripture defines what a Christian is
Ridiculous. A person defines what he is...and he takes what he chooses from scripture. How scripture affects a person is partly determine by the society that he lives; and partly determined by how he interprets scripture (at least, insofar as the religion's affect on the person's character).

Quote:
--the individual does not: even if he is the POPE. If he violates the scripture, as many popes have done, he is no Christian and anyone who follows him is mistaken at best.
Well,,,this is your belief: but it does not jive with reality.

Popes, mullahs, and rabbis all interpret their wisdom from their holy words. Some of these interpretations are muddled by translation; or the meaning/significance of words change over time (cf, the previous link regarding "Thou shalt not...a witch to live.")

Let me give you one example. Consider the Auto-de-fe, or the Inquisition. Now, the Inquisition was based upon a misinterpretation of passage in the Bible, and used to jail, sieze property, and kill many innocent people (often as a means to take their property).

Now, there had to be SOMEONE working within the offices of the Inquisition who honestly was trying to be a good Christian (perhaps a low-level guard, or accountant). I mean, looking at today's society...is it really that hard to imagine someone trying to be good, but operating within a corrupt and misbegotten institution?

No, of course not. In fact, history is filled with accounts of people who had pretty kooky beliefs, but still tried to be the best human being they could, under the circumstances.

Quote:
But if your scripture calls for you to murder....
...then, you check the translation and go find yourself a copy that is more in tune with your belief-system.

Quote:
If they follow Jesus, who said not to kill under any circumstances, then they are less violent than people who kill for any reason--even if those people "call" themselves Christian or whatever they may.
Nope, sorry. This fails the reality test.

Your scenario is nice, on a hypothetical realm. But, people follow whomever they please, kill when they feel like it, and all say that their god condones it.

It doesn't seem to matter what the prophet(s) say.

Quote:
Garbage. The one who falsely deals with "the message" is a false messenger and bears no reflection whatever on the real message. And the one who diligently bears out the message--even if the message is to kill--is a faithful representative of that message.
Whatever. You like to pluck out a few "messages" of Islam that you construe to be calls for wholesale murder: and you then condemn a whole religion that you barely understand.

I, on the other hand, see human nature, good and evil, enacted in the name of one Deity or another.

Quote:
Nope. It's not the subject. I know muslims. I work with muslims. There are some nice people among them, and very smart people. But that doesn't change what the Koran says.
Why...some of my BEST FRIENDS are...

And it doesn't change what your shallow interpretation of what the Koran says, either.

Look, I'm not a Koran expert. Neither am I a biblical scholar. But the thrust of your argument seems to imply that the root of Islam is violence, and sorry...but I simply don't agree.

In looking up my links for this thread, I found a LOT of discussions of this nature on other fora. "Is Islam a violent religion," etc, etc, ad nauseum. And the conversations pretty much parallel this one.

Do you know what else I found in common, with this conversation? ALL of the "Islam-as-religion-of-hate" crowd were Conservatives who knew of Islam as secondhand...NONE of them were Muslims, and ALL of them used exactly the same sort of non-argument, that "most of the world's terrorists are Muslim, ergo..."

Quote:
It's a shame you believe that, Neil, because there are too many people just like you to shake a stick at.
Thank you for so well illustrating my point. You know jack about me, except what I write here. And yet, you feel totally comfortable opining about my beliefs, my effect upon the world (and, of course, how I would respond to torture, as you did earlier in the thread).

Quote:
And the sad thing is that you are protecting the very people who would maim you for life just for being that kind of person.
And the sad thing is that you are making assumptions about nearly 1/3 of the world's population. Quite an assessment, indeed!

Quote:
Bush's enemies are much more like Amadinajad's enemies than you think. Amadinajad isn't worried about the KKK or bigots: it's liberals he hates.
I don't know exactly WHO Ahmenijad hates...I don't own that patented crystal ball that reads minds (I ordered one from eBay; but darn it! It's still NOT ARRIVED, yet!!!! ).

I know that he makes generic, but empty statements to rile the Israeli's, all the while having very little ability to enforce whatever kooky foreign policy notions he might/might not have.

Quote:
It's liberals the Taliban hates.
The Taliban hate everyone who didn't view their childhood from the inside of a refugee camp.

Quote:
It's liberals they want to maim and torture.
Wrong. They'll maim and torture whomever they get their hands on. If Mike Sigman and I were caught by the Taliban: do you think they'd save their worst for me, just because I was a Liberal?

(and no funny ideas from you, Mike! If we get caught: I'm pointing to you and shouting: "Take HIM!!! HE's the corrupt, evil Western Liberal!!! )

No: they'd treat us with equal esteem, because we both represent a foreign power that is inimical to their interests.

Quote:
Bush, Amadinajad, Mullah Omar and Osama are all very similar in that way--which is why I would never count Bush among the Christians.
How very black-and-white (and therefore convient) worldview, of you.

Quote:
Really? So if Bush "misinterprets" the Constitution, it's the misinterpretation that will stand the test of time?
Religion is based upon faith, based upon belief and interpretation of holy passages. Over time, interpretations of holy passages change the meaning, even as the adherents ever claim that "theirs, is the One True Faith."

Some take meanings from holy works and use them for their own purposes.

The law, on the other hand: is NOT based on faith...it's based upon written laws that were agreed upon by MEN.

See, David: that's the difference, and what you're not getting. Laws are accepted to be flawed, subject to historical context, and therefore designed to change with the needs of people (in a fluid society, not a dictatorship).

In a religion, what is written down is gospel, and therefore not open to much debate. Except, words change, meanings and contexts change, and thus religious tenets change. It's why the image of Jesus has changed so much over the centuries, in art and culture. Every successive generation changes the concept of Jesus, just a little bit.

Quote:
False is false.
And everything is easily understood in tones of black and white. This is how religious wars start...with this unbending sentiment.

Quote:
Those who present false Christianity are false Christians. And those who try to discredit Christianity by pointing to false Christians as examples of Christians are at best fooling themselves.
Lucky for me, I'm not Christian, I guess...

Quote:
Why go to all that trouble to misrepresent both sides? Why not just take the truth of each and accept the truth for the truth?

David
Because one OTHER of the very few things I have learned in life is never to believe someone who tells me that they're "telling the truth..." that THEIR way is the True Way.

"There are many roads to the Way" O Sensei
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Old 08-20-2007, 10:17 AM   #135
David Orange
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Re: the devil can quote scripture...

Neil Mick wrote:
There have been whole nations, called to commit mass murder in the name of the Christian God.

David Orange wrote:
And where did the Scripture call for that?

Neil Mick wrote:
Does it really matter?

David Orange wrote:
Yes, it matters.

Quote:
Neil Mick wrote: View Post
To you.
No, it matters universally. If you say you kill in the name of a religion that says "THOU SHALT NOT KILL," you prove yourself a liar. However, if you say you kill in the name of a religion and that religion's prime text says "MURDER THEM WHEREVER YOU FIND THEM," then it's a pretty safe bet you do represent that religion.

Quote:
Neil Mick wrote: View Post
In sum, there is no way to tell which religion spawned the higher body count.
Obviously, you have no way to tell which are your hands and which are your feet, either. Do you see why I say there are many, many people "like Neil Mick"? I've read thousands of internet postings just like the undefinable, abstract, imaginary stuff you pump out--and as much as you pump, there's no way you could have written all of it. There must be thousands of people just like you. It seems you're all reading from some kind of "Manual of Political Correctness" that I have never seen because you all say the same kinds of things based on some strange logic that's perfectly consistent among you, yet strangely unrelated to anything in human nature or the world.

Quote:
Neil Mick wrote: View Post
And really, who cares...an extremist is an extremist--no matter what religion he chooses to hoist as his flag.
I haven't addressed extremists at all--just the scriptures of the two teachings. Jesus and the scripture of his followers give no justification anywhere for any kind of killing, while Islamic scripture specifically orders in some cases (and arguably in all cases) for not only "killing" but specifically "murdering" unbelievers. So if you have a "Christian extremist," he has to be someone like a Quaker who absolutely will not kill or support killing in any way.

David Orange wrote:
Quote:
The scripture defines what a Christian is

Quote:
Neil Mick wrote: View Post
Ridiculous. A person defines what he is...
So if you say you were uchi deshi to Morihei Ueshiba, you really were? You should open a sandwich shop, Neil. You need to do something with all that baloney you're pushing.

Quote:
Neil Mick wrote: View Post
How scripture affects a person is partly determine by the society that he lives; and partly determined by how he interprets scripture (at least, insofar as the religion's affect on the person's character).
But there's no way you can get around the fact that Jesus and all Christian scripture prohibit killing and violence. The only time one of Jesus' followers used a sword, Jesus healed the damage he had done. There is no way any cultural milleu can affect that.

David Orange wrote:
Quote:
--the individual does not: even if he is the POPE. If he violates the scripture, as many popes have done, he is no Christian and anyone who follows him is mistaken at best.

Quote:
Neil Mick wrote: View Post
Well,,,this is your belief: but it does not jive with reality.
Neil, if a "scientist" sticks pins in voodoo dolls and claims that it's "scientific experimentation" he's a false scientist.

If a thinker (and you should really pay attention here) bends and breaks the rules of logic, he's a false thinker. All your twisting just proves you don't give a rat's patootie for reality.

David Orange wrote:
Quote:
But if your scripture calls for you to murder....

Quote:
Neil Mick wrote: View Post
...then, you check the translation and go find yourself a copy that is more in tune with your belief-system.
And if there is no copy or translation that differs? Make one up? That's what I think you will recommend since you have no problem making up "facts" to suit your whim. Truth can only be built on truth, Neil. Whatever whipped cream of delusions you build your castle on, it's going to crash into the hard ground of reality. Please try not to land on your head when it does.

David Orange wrote
Quote:
If they follow Jesus, who said not to kill under any circumstances, then they are less violent than people who kill for any reason--even if those people "call" themselves Christian or whatever they may.

Quote:
Neil Mick wrote: View Post
Nope, sorry. This fails the reality test.
ah.....right....so people who don't kill under any circumstances are "just as violent" as people who kill indiscriminately.....

Neil, if there were a qualification test for imbecile, I doubt you could fit into that lofty scale. You would be somewhere further down the slippery slope.

Quote:
Neil Mick wrote: View Post
...Your scenario is nice, on a hypothetical realm. But, people follow whomever they please, kill when they feel like it, and all say that their god condones it.
So? You can claim to have been O-Sensei's uchi deshi, but since there is a known definition of "uchi deshi" and O-Sensei is a known and recognized person, and you never were his uchi deshi, your claim simply would not be true, any more than if you claimed that you had written all Shakespeare's plays and your wife had written all his sonnets. When you violate your own scriptures, you may believe that you are a follower of that scripture, but a blind man can see that you're not. But you have somehow transcended blindness into some realm of super-blindness, in which ordinary blindness is equivalent to 20/20 vision. You are spectacularly unbelieveable to the degree that I can't believe you really believe your own words. Applied by anyone else in any other context, you would sneer at the claims you make.

Quote:
Neil Mick wrote: View Post
...It doesn't seem to matter what the prophet(s) say.
The sage and the prophets define the truth of each religion. Violate that and you exclude yourself, regardless of what you think.

Quote:
Neil Mick wrote: View Post
You like to pluck out a few "messages" of Islam that you construe to be calls for wholesale murder: and you then condemn a whole religion that you barely understand.
Don't be foolish, Neil. Show me where I have condemned Islam. I haven't. I have simply proven the difference between the scriptures of Jesus and of Mohammed. And you have simply denied proven facts.

Quote:
Neil Mick wrote: View Post
And it doesn't change what your shallow interpretation of what the Koran says, either.
I haven't interpreted anything it says. I've simply quoted directly from it to prove what it does say. Take from it whatever meaning you like, but don't deny that it says it.

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Neil Mick wrote: View Post
Look, I'm not a Koran expert. Neither am I a biblical scholar.
You don't have to tell anyone either of those things. Everything you have said so far proves that you are spouting ignorant opinion on both subjects.

Quote:
Neil Mick wrote: View Post
But the thrust of your argument seems to imply that the root of Islam is violence, and sorry...but I simply don't agree.
There it is you, again, who is interpreting. I merely pointed out what is written in the Koran. It's there, you cannot deny it. Make of it what you will.

Quote:
Neil Mick wrote: View Post
ALL of the "Islam-as-religion-of-hate" crowd were Conservatives who knew of Islam as secondhand...NONE of them were Muslims, and ALL of them used exactly the same sort of non-argument, that "most of the world's terrorists are Muslim, ergo..."
And none of those things characterize my posts in any way. First, the only way I am a "conservative" is in my Boy Scout belief in conserving water and natural resources. I'm a liberal in pretty much every other way.

David Orange wrote:
Quote:
It's a shame you believe that, Neil, because there are too many people just like you to shake a stick at.

Quote:
Neil Mick wrote: View Post
Thank you for so well illustrating my point. You know jack about me, except what I write here. And yet, you feel totally comfortable opining about my beliefs, my effect upon the world (and, of course, how I would respond to torture, as you did earlier in the thread).
What you write here is, effectively, all of you there is. You prove that you have no respect for truth or reason, no logic, no science, no consistency. You will argue any point to support your claims--even points you would reject from anyone else on any other subject. Your posts could be copied and pasted from the websites of so many extremist groups it's ridiculous.

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Neil Mick wrote: View Post
And the sad thing is that you are making assumptions about nearly 1/3 of the world's population.
Quote the assumptions I've made, Neil. Show me one assumption.

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Neil Mick wrote: View Post
I don't know exactly WHO Ahmenijad hates...I don't own that patented crystal ball that reads minds (I ordered one from eBay; but darn it! It's still NOT ARRIVED, yet!!!! ).
No need for a crystal ball or to read minds when the person in question has published his beliefs and spoken publicly about them many times. It is liberals and liberalism that he hates--and that means, as Amir pointed out, rights for women, education for women, etc. Say all you want about women having more rights in Afghanistan than in the west. It's freedom in a very narrow cage.

Quote:
Neil Mick wrote: View Post
Wrong. They'll maim and torture whomever they get their hands on. If Mike Sigman and I were caught by the Taliban: do you think they'd save their worst for me, just because I was a Liberal?
You think they would spare you because you support rights for women and same-sex marriages? They might literally have worse in store for you if you were found guilty of spreading those beliefs.

Quote:
Neil Mick wrote: View Post
No: they'd treat us with equal esteem, because we both represent a foreign power that is inimical to their interests.
Possibly. But if you were spreading belief in same-sex marriage or various other things, including converting people to Christianity, you might well get it worse.

Quote:
Neil Mick wrote: View Post
.....(another couple hundred words of double-talk and squirming.....ad infinitum)....
Yes, Neil....uh huh....uh huh....yeah...yeah....right....sure....Hey, look, my dog needs a bath now....yeah. Terrible flea problem. Sure....yeah, sure.....yeah....yeah. Yes. Of course, uh huh....okay. Well, gotta go, Neil. Okay. Okay. Yeah. Buh-bye.....

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.esotericorange.com
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Old 08-20-2007, 11:03 AM   #136
James Davis
 
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Re: the devil can quote scripture...

Quote:
Neil Mick wrote: View Post
Now, there had to be SOMEONE working within the offices of the Inquisition who honestly was trying to be a good Christian (perhaps a low-level guard, or accountant). I mean, looking at today's society...is it really that hard to imagine someone trying to be good, but operating within a corrupt and misbegotten institution?
Hmmm. I don't know. What if they're a conservative and drive an SUV? Can they be forgiven?

Quote:
Neil Mick wrote: View Post
...then, you check the translation and go find yourself a copy that is more in tune with your belief-system.
Interesting that you should mention that. I was buying a copy of the Koran for my wife, and when leafing through the first version I picked up, I found a passage suggesting that a man shoud beat his wife. When I looked the same passage up in a different version, instead of "beat", the translator used the word "admonish". Even with what little japanese I know, I am acutely aware of how difficult translation of some terms can be.

Quote:
Neil Mick wrote: View Post
Why...some of my BEST FRIENDS are...
Now what's that all about?
Quote:
Neil Mick wrote: View Post
In looking up my links for this thread, I found a LOT of discussions of this nature on other fora. "Is Islam a violent religion," etc, etc, ad nauseum. And the conversations pretty much parallel this one.
A lot of people hear and repeat without really knowing.

Kind of like the press.
Quote:
Neil Mick wrote: View Post
Do you know what else I found in common, with this conversation? ALL of the "Islam-as-religion-of-hate" crowd were Conservatives who knew of Islam as secondhand...NONE of them were Muslims, and ALL of them used exactly the same sort of non-argument, that "most of the world's terrorists are Muslim, ergo..."
This is what happens when people have the hell scared out of them. People made assumptions about other people that they didn't know, based on very little info. Remember the silly questions they asked JFK? People fear what they don't understand, and all too often refuse to pick up a book and learn. Even with the advent of the internet, it doesn't seem like anybody I know reads anything.
Quote:
Neil Mick wrote: View Post
I don't know exactly WHO Ahmenijad hates...I don't own that patented crystal ball that reads minds (I ordered one from eBay; but darn it! It's still NOT ARRIVED, yet!!!! ).
When it arrives, destroy it. I don't think you'd want to know what some people are thinking..

I do recall him saying something about wiping someone off the map though...
Quote:
Neil Mick wrote: View Post
I know that he makes generic, but empty statements to rile the Israeli's, all the while having very little ability to enforce whatever kooky foreign policy notions he might/might not have.
Israel! That was it! Thanks.
He's hard at work trying to remedy that situation, though.
Quote:
Neil Mick wrote: View Post
The Taliban hate everyone who didn't view their childhood from the inside of a refugee camp.
...and probably some that did.

Quote:
Neil Mick wrote: View Post
Wrong. They'll maim and torture whomever they get their hands on. If Mike Sigman and I were caught by the Taliban: do you think they'd save their worst for me, just because I was a Liberal?
They'd probably just turn you loose on each other and place their bets!

Quote:
Neil Mick wrote: View Post
The law, on the other hand: is NOT based on faith...it's based upon written laws that were agreed upon by MEN.
Agreed upon for the most part, I suppose. Still, it's a pretty big deal who gets to nominate those justices...
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Neil Mick wrote: View Post
"There are many roads to the Way" O Sensei
Amen to that.

"The only difference between Congress and drunken sailors is that drunken sailors spend their own money." -Tom Feeney, representative from Florida
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Old 08-20-2007, 09:25 PM   #137
Neil Mick
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Re: the devil can quote scripture...

Quote:
James Davis, Jr. wrote: View Post
Hmmm. I don't know. What if they're a conservative and drive an SUV? Can they be forgiven?
I was trying to show that an otherwise moral person could find himself working within an amoral or corrupt institution, and still be a moral person.

Quote:
Interesting that you should mention that. I was buying a copy of the Koran for my wife, and when leafing through the first version I picked up, I found a passage suggesting that a man shoud beat his wife. When I looked the same passage up in a different version, instead of "beat", the translator used the word "admonish". Even with what little japanese I know, I am acutely aware of how difficult translation of some terms can be.
Exactly! And this is something that David O. doesn't seem to "get."

Quote:
James Davis wrote:
I do recall him saying something about wiping someone off the map though...
I don't think so. Again, this was a mistranslation, echoed by the supine MSM, spun by Bush:

Translation of phrase "wiped off the map"

Quote:
Many news sources have presented one of Ahmadinejad's phrases in Persian as a statement that "Israel must be wiped off the map", an English idiom which means to "obliterate totally", and "destroy completely", such as by powerful bombs, or other catasrophes.

Juan Cole, a University of Michigan Professor of Modern Middle East and South Asian History, translates the Persian phrase as:

The Imam said that this regime occupying Jerusalem (een rezhim-e ishghalgar-e qods) must [vanish from] the page of time (bayad az safheh-ye ruzgar mahv shavad).

According to Cole, "Ahmadinejad did not say he was going to 'wipe Israel off the map' because no such idiom exists in Persian" and "He did say he hoped its regime, i.e., a Jewish-Zionist state occupying Jerusalem, would collapse."

The Middle East Media Research Institute (MEMRI) translates the phrase similarly:

[T]his regime that is occupying Qods [Jerusalem] must be eliminated from the pages of history.

Iran has repeatedly rejected the allegations that Ahmadinejad has stated 'Israel must be wiped off the map'. On 20 February 2006, Iran's foreign minister denied that Tehran wanted to see Israel "wiped off the map," saying Ahmadinejad had been misunderstood. "Nobody can remove a country from the map. This is a misunderstanding in Europe of what our president mentioned," Manouchehr Mottaki told a news conference, speaking in English, after addressing the European Parliament. "How is it possible to remove a country from the map? He is talking about the regime. We do not recognise legally this regime," he said.

In a June 11, 2006 analysis of the translation controversy, New York Times deputy foreign editor Ethan Bronner stated that Ahmadinejad had said that Israel was to be wiped off the map. After noting the objections of critics such as Cole and Steele, Bronner said: "But translators in Tehran who work for the president's office and the foreign ministry disagree with them. All official translations of Mr. Ahmadinejad's statement, including a description of it on his Web site (www.president.ir/eng/), refer to wiping Israel away." Bronner stated: "So did Iran's president call for Israel to be 'wiped off the map'? It certainly seems so. Did that amount to a call for war? That remains an open question."

On June 15, 2006 The Guardian columnist and foreign correspondent Jonathan Steele cites several Persian speakers and translators who state that the phrase in question is more accurately translated as an "occupying regime" being "eliminated" or "wiped off" or "wiped away" from "the page of time" or "the pages of history", rather than "Israel" being "wiped off the map".

A synopsis of Mr Ahmadinejad's speech on the Iranian Presidential website states:

He further expressed his firm belief that the new wave of confrontations generated in Palestine and the growing turmoil in the Islamic world would in no time wipe Israel away.

The same idiom in his speech on December 13, 2006 was translated as "wipe out" by Reuters:

Just as the Soviet Union was wiped out and today does not exist, so will the Zionist regime soon be wiped out.
Quote:
Israel! That was it! Thanks.
He's hard at work trying to remedy that situation, though.
I have no idea "how" hard at work he actually is (considering that his actual power as president of Iran is somewhat limited), and how much of his speeches are simply playing to the "ugly" crowd.

Neither, I suspect, does anyone reading this sentence.

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...and probably some that did.
True enough.

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They'd probably just turn you loose on each other and place their bets!
Ehh...Mike'd break me like a twig!!

Quote:
Agreed upon for the most part, I suppose. Still, it's a pretty big deal who gets to nominate those justices...
I was attempting to show the difference btw religious scripture, and laws...a difference that David O. seems unaware...
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Old 08-20-2007, 09:38 PM   #138
Mike Sigman
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Re: the devil can quote scripture...

Quote:
Neil Mick wrote: View Post
I don't think so. Again, this was a mistranslation, echoed by the supine MSM, spun by Bush:

Translation of phrase "wiped off the map"
These are the same people that said Hitler didn't really mean it prior to WWII. There are so many monitoring translators and websites that translate the intent to wipe Israel off the map that to say "it didn't mean that" simply means someone is on the side of doing just that. If a nuke hits Israel, I'm certain that Neil will be one of the first trying to diminish the importance of just that.

Mike Sigman
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Old 08-20-2007, 09:51 PM   #139
Neil Mick
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Re: the devil can quote scripture...

Quote:
David Orange wrote: View Post
No, it matters universally. If you say you kill in the name of a religion that says "THOU SHALT NOT KILL," you prove yourself a liar. However, if you say you kill in the name of a religion and that religion's prime text says "MURDER THEM WHEREVER YOU FIND THEM," then it's a pretty safe bet you do represent that religion.
So what about if you kill, accidentally? Or, in a moment of passion or grief? What if you accidentally kill a vandal desecrating a cathedral, in an attempt to stop him?

I guess by YOUR extremist logic: then all of these ppl would no longer be Christians. But never mind...

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Obviously, you have no way to tell which are your hands and which are your feet, either.
Obviously, you're running out of intelligent things to say, and so you resort to mode B...condescension.

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Do you see why I say there are many, many people "like Neil Mick"? I've read thousands of internet postings just like the undefinable, abstract, imaginary stuff you pump out
Garbage. I've read some people's opinions similar to mine, but never EXACTLY the same. And you hardly know my complete range of political beliefs, either. You couldn't. Unless, of course: you've got that famed crystal ball workin' overtime...

Quote:
--and as much as you pump, there's no way you could have written all of it.
Everything I have signed, is mine. Or, I've credited it. I don't plaguerize. If that's what you're accusing of me, then you really have proven that you don't know me at all.

But, I'm assuming that you're talking generally...

Quote:
There must be thousands of people just like you.
Yeah...there've gotta be THOUSANDS of college aikido instructors/visual artists who are fundraising for Ethiopian dojos!! Why, I HATE it when I'm bumpin' into myself all the time at the grocery store!!

Know why?? Because MY FAVORITE FLAVOR OF ICE CREAM IS ALWAYS SOLD OUT!!!

Quote:
It seems you're all reading from some kind of "Manual of Political Correctness" that I have never seen because you all say the same kinds of things based on some strange logic that's perfectly consistent among you, yet strangely unrelated to anything in human nature or the world.
But you just contradicted yourself. If a bunch of us are all writing the same thing...then it HAS to be related to human nature, somehow!!

But don't let me stop you...you're on a hell-or-highwater mission to make it to Condescension-land: and you're al-most...there...

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I haven't addressed extremists at all--just the scriptures of the two teachings.
Please. Previously, you talked about Islamic extremists plotting to take over the world: now you're on about how Islam is based on murder. Where's your acknowledgement of the rest of the Muslim community?

Do you even REALIZE that Muslims value community very highly? It's one of their principal tenets.

Quote:
Jesus and the scripture of his followers give no justification anywhere for any kind of killing, while Islamic scripture specifically orders in some cases (and arguably in all cases) for not only "killing" but specifically "murdering" unbelievers. So if you have a "Christian extremist," he has to be someone like a Quaker who absolutely will not kill or support killing in any way.
A handy method of expunging yourself of your own extremists.

But, do you know what the difference btw a religion that sometimes condones violence with a high body-count; and a religion that espouses peace, but leads to many mistranslations and "missions" to "kill the unbelievers?"

In the end...nothing. Dead is dead.

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Neil, if a "scientist" sticks pins in voodoo dolls and claims that it's "scientific experimentation" he's a false scientist.
Depends upon the experiment, doesn't it?

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If a thinker (and you should really pay attention here) bends and breaks the rules of logic, he's a false thinker. All your twisting just proves you don't give a rat's patootie for reality.
No, David. You just like to say over and over, that you're right. Well, bully for you. I commend someone who is so steadfast in their own beliefs.

I have shown you the limitations of your own logic, and you like to call it "breaking the rules of logic." David, it's not breaking the rules: it's just that you're not really listening. It's something you often do online...I saw you do it in the thread while conversing with Tarik....you just don't pay attention.

And when socked in a corner, you just keep bludgeoning on with your own version of facts (usually, sans references), before you resort to insult.

Quote:
David Orange wrote:
And if there is no copy or translation that differs? Make one up? That's what I think you will recommend since you have no problem making up "facts" to suit your whim.
Sorry, David: I've referenced everything. Sorry that the world does not always line up to your rigid view of it. Must be tough, driving to work.

Quote:
Neil, if there were a qualification test for imbecile, I doubt you could fit into that lofty scale. You would be somewhere further down the slippery slope.
And, more insults...

See, David...you just proved yourself dead wrong. You claim to "know all about me," but if you REALLY did--you'd realize that you were wasting your time, in writing the rest of this post, because I stop reading, after the insults.

Next!
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Old 08-20-2007, 09:57 PM   #140
Neil Mick
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Tongue Of crystal balls and whistful imaginings

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Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
These are the same people that said Hitler didn't really mean it prior to WWII.
I never said he was an angel...

Quote:
There are so many monitoring translators and websites that translate the intent to wipe Israel off the map that to say "it didn't mean that" simply means someone is on the side of doing just that.
Michael Sigman, political linguistics media expert

Quote:
If a nuke hits Israel, I'm certain that Neil will be one of the first trying to diminish the importance of just that.

Mike Sigman
Typical. To quote you...

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
That was a fairly sickening comment.
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Old 08-20-2007, 11:34 PM   #141
Ryan Sanford
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Re: A President's Thought

Wooo, go Neil!

"There's only one corner of the universe you can be certain of improving, and that's your own self." - Aldous Huxley
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Old 08-21-2007, 03:36 AM   #142
Taliesin
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Re: A President's Thought

Anther quote from the past with huge relevance today

"Whenever God erects a house of prayer
The Devil Starts a chapel there
And on later examination
The later has the larger congrigation"

Daniel Defoe

A philiosphy I believe is based on the recognition that where religion conveys power, power hungry people will join it and study it's holy books until they can make it say what they want and use it for their own power
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Old 08-21-2007, 06:25 AM   #143
Amir Krause
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Re: A President's Thought

To David Orange and the other Christians

(Note, I am Jew and know very little about Christianity)

Reading your posts, I understand Christianity is defined only by the scriptures of Jesus and his direct students???

Because in Judaism most of the practice follow the “Tora Shbelal-Pe”: oral directions do and don’t for the correct Jewish conduct, and not the Tora or bible. There was actually a very large rift in side Judaism around the first century, with a “Cult” called the Kruim who worshiped only by the scriptures and did not follow the oral tradition.

So, Are you saying it is different in Christianity? Is this true for all Christians (Catholic, Orthodox, Protestant, …) If so, how can there be so many different ways?

To me, your definition seems very strange. Since it is such contrast to the Jewish way, and because according to it, you have just decreed thousands of people out of Christianity; among them all the Crusaders, and the Popes supporting the crusades, all those who killed Jews in uncountable antishemic acts (up until about 200 years or so, Jewish communities lived better under Islamic rule then they did under Christian rule), all those who fought to occupy other nations or convert them by sword, etc.
I doubt any of you could safely point to his ancestry and claim they were Christians under the suggested rules.

I would further like to know how your definition deals with sinners? Are they supposed to be ousted of the Christian community (Jewish communities did and still do that for some actions/decisions), or is the persons definition as a Christian only acceptable retroactively (judging his actions with historical perspective is more just). If the community has not taken any action, can it be considered to be Christian based on those values?

No hard feelings, but I am trying to explain why the concept seems idealistic and very far from any real concept of religious communities to me.

Amir
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Old 08-21-2007, 08:24 AM   #144
David Orange
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Re: the devil can quote scripture...

Quote:
Neil Mick wrote: View Post
James Davis, Jr. wrote
Quote:
Interesting that you should mention that. I was buying a copy of the Koran for my wife, and when leafing through the first version I picked up, I found a passage suggesting that a man shoud beat his wife. When I looked the same passage up in a different version, instead of "beat", the translator used the word "admonish". Even with what little japanese I know, I am acutely aware of how difficult translation of some terms can be.

Neil Mick wrote:
Exactly! And this is something that David O. doesn't seem to "get."
You're the one who said the "message" doesn't matter. But does it matter if it says "murder" or "kill"? You strain at a gnat but swallow a camel.

Quote:
Neil Mick wrote: View Post
Quote:
James Davis wrote:
I do recall him saying something about wiping someone off the map though...

Neil Mick wrote:
I don't think so. Again, this was a mistranslation, echoed by the supine MSM, spun by Bush:

Translation of phrase "wiped off the map"
Yes, Neil. "erased from the pages of time" is a far more benign statement, isn't it?

But if you "can't wipe a country off a map," how can you "erase them from the pages of time"?

You're twisting this stuff so hard, you could make balloon animals out of it, Neil.

Quote:
Neil Mick wrote: View Post
I was attempting to show the difference btw religious scripture, and laws...a difference that David O. seems unaware...
A very feeble attempt, Neil. Jesus goes into great detail about who his followers are. He says that many people will "claim" to be his followers, but they will only be out to deceive and destroy those who believe them. One example, from Matthew:

" 21Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."

So "defining oneself" does not cut the mustard, nor the mustard seed. The scripture clearly sets out that "doing what he says" is the key--not "calling oneself" a Christian. The vast, vast majority of people calling themselves Crhistians are false Christians.

So define yourself as a PhD in Philosophy from Oxford. Saying doesn't make it so.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.esotericorange.com
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Old 08-21-2007, 08:55 AM   #145
David Orange
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Re: the devil can quote scripture...

Quote:
Neil Mick wrote: View Post
So what about if you kill, accidentally? Or, in a moment of passion or grief? What if you accidentally kill a vandal desecrating a cathedral, in an attempt to stop him?

I guess by YOUR extremist logic: then all of these ppl would no longer be Christians. But never mind...
If you kill accidentally, any moron would not have to ask the question. Someone of sub-moronic intelligence would have to ask.

A cathedral has less meaning than a widow's hovel. Rob a widow is worse.

I can't judge that any one person is or isn't a Christian or will or won't get mercy from God. But I can say that if you kill in Jesus' name, you are very unlikely to see mercy from God. I think he said, "Blessed are the merciful, for they shall see mercy." He advises us to pray "forgive us as we forgive others," effectively. Don't forgive? Don't expect forgiveness.

Quote:
Neil Mick wrote: View Post
Obviously, you're running out of intelligent things to say, and so you resort to mode B...condescension.
Like a scientist talking to someone who wants to attribute every natural effect to the influence of flying saucers....anyone talking to you will soon run out of "reasonable" arguments.

Quote:
Neil Mick wrote: View Post
Garbage. I've read some people's opinions similar to mine, but never EXACTLY the same. And you hardly know my complete range of political beliefs, either. You couldn't. Unless, of course: you've got that famed crystal ball workin' overtime...
I used to think there might be some value in Marxism until I met several self-styled Marxists. I found them, to a one, deadly BORING because they all spouted the same drivel, over and over until you were ready to chew your arm off to get away from them. Not only boring, but ignorant, unrealistic and completely contrary to human nature. I have no idea what you think about anything except what you write on these boards ad nauseum, but what you write on this subject is certainly cut-and-paste the same as hundreds of people who post drooling diatribes all over the internet--blaming Israel for everything, excusing every terrorist, allowing things on their side that you would never accept from a Jew or Israeli.

What if Ueshiba had ever once said that if someone insults aikido, you should find him and "murder (or 'kill') him," or that you should cut off his hand and his foot on opposite sides of his body? Would aikido have the same warm, fuzzy glow it has for you now? I doubt it.

Quote:
Neil Mick wrote: View Post
Everything I have signed, is mine. Or, I've credited it. I don't plaguerize. If that's what you're accusing of me, then you really have proven that you don't know me at all.
Maybe you type it, but you didn't think it up. You obviously read it somewhere or sat in some political-correctness action committee meeting and heard it (or formulated a manifesto of it with the committee). But wherever you got it, it's cardboard-cutout, mimeograph-exactly the same as written by hundreds of other one-sided purveyors of the idea that black and white are exactly equal--except that white is evil.

Quote:
Neil Mick wrote: View Post
But you just contradicted yourself. If a bunch of us are all writing the same thing...then it HAS to be related to human nature, somehow!!
It's only related to human nature in that people will go to extreme lengths to win the favor of those they want to impress--even at the expense of other people they don't consider important. You will say anything to gain the favor of your peer group in the Political Correctness Action Committee because you all disregard the same people. So you're always safe in defending terrorists because you all want to see Israel wiped....I mean....eliminated--yeah, that's the ticket: "eliminated" from the pages of history.

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Neil Mick wrote: View Post
But don't let me stop you...you're on a hell-or-highwater mission to make it to Condescension-land: and you're al-most...there...
Ah, but when I get there, I'll have to stand because you and your Committee have taken all the good seats. You've been camped out there like concert-goers in line for the AC/DC tickets and you've left no room for me.

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Neil Mick wrote: View Post
Please. Previously, you talked about Islamic extremists plotting to take over the world: now you're on about how Islam is based on murder.
You are very close to proving yourself a liar, Neil. Quote where I said that, or you've proven it.

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Neil Mick wrote: View Post
Where's your acknowledgement of the rest of the Muslim community?
As I said, I work with a number of muslims and find many of them to be nice guys, very smart. And unlike your racist claim, I never said "some of my best friends."

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Neil Mick wrote: View Post
Do you even REALIZE that Muslims value community very highly? It's one of their principal tenets.
I know they value "their" community very highly. And I know that the recent attacks in England and Scotland were carried out by some very well-placed individuals, in government-funded positions of high trust. I know that those who attempted to bomb the trains weren't concerned about the mother with the baby in a stroller as part of their community. I also know that those kidnapping individuals and bombing markets in Iraq only care about the Sunni or Shia community. Obviously, then, your statement above could have come from "Idiot's Guide to Community."

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Neil Mick wrote: View Post
But, do you know what the difference btw a religion that sometimes condones violence with a high body-count; and a religion that espouses peace, but leads to many mistranslations and "missions" to "kill the unbelievers?"
I don't know of any religion that sometimes condone violence. Is this another thing you've "made up"?

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

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Old 08-21-2007, 09:02 AM   #146
David Orange
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Re: A President's Thought

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David Chalk wrote: View Post
A philiosphy I believe is based on the recognition that where religion conveys power, power hungry people will join it and study it's holy books until they can make it say what they want and use it for their own power
Nonetheless, the original meaning is still there and the liars will get their due. A Zen master was tending his garden one day and the local officials came by with a young pregnant woman.

"Master," they said, "this young woman says that you have made her pregnant."

"Ah, so desu ka?" the Master said. He took the woman into his home and cared for her.

After several months, the young woman called the authorities, who came to the Master's house and said, "This young woman admits that the woodcutter is the real father of her child. Because he is married, she was ashamed and put the blame on you."

The Master said, "Ah, so desu ka?" and went back to tending his garden.

After all, the truth is the only thing that is true and everything else will eventually come to light.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

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Old 08-21-2007, 09:08 AM   #147
jennifer paige smith
 
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Re: A President's Thought

After scanning these posts and trying to suss out the what's what from the this is this's, I' can say that David represents a position on Christianity that is relevant and refreshing. He holds, not against Islam but against Christianity, the very principles that make's one 'Christain'.
There are texts within the old testament that are more similar than different to the Letters (limited, mind you) of Islam to which I've been exposed. But there was then the new covenant and the life of christ, The New Testament. Christians follow the christ path example.

Looked at clock. Late for work. sorry to end this post, pre-facto. Hold on.....
Jen

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Old 08-21-2007, 10:12 AM   #148
David Orange
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Re: A President's Thought

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Amir Krause wrote: View Post
...in Judaism most of the practice follow the “Tora Shbelal-Pe”: oral directions do and don’t for the correct Jewish conduct, and not the Tora or bible. ...So, Are you saying it is different in Christianity? Is this true for all Christians (Catholic, Orthodox, Protestant, …) If so, how can there be so many different ways?
I'm not saying that it's the "printed word" that's so important, but if a "tradition" contradicts the "founder," obviously, that tradition has gone astray, wouldn't you say?

If Jesus says "Love your neighbor as yourself," but the tradition evolves that we can "Kill your neighbor," then that tradition must be wrong, mustn't it?

But Neil would have you believe that that "evolved tradition" is just as valid as the original saying "Love your neighbor." Both would then be valid "Christianity."

But the real meaning of the word "Christian" is "like Christ," which means, "like Jesus."

How can we say we are "like Christ" if we do all the things Christ hated and warned against?

What we have here in this modern world is a Christianity that glories in war and retribution and knows nothing about mercy. That is purely opposite Jesus' words. We are wrong to follow that and think we will have Christ's approval. And Neil is wrong to point to that false church as real Christianity.

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Amir Krause wrote: View Post
To me, your definition seems very strange. Since it is such contrast to the Jewish way, and because according to it, you have just decreed thousands of people out of Christianity; among them all the Crusaders, and the Popes supporting the crusades, all those who killed Jews in uncountable antishemic acts (up until about 200 years or so, Jewish communities lived better under Islamic rule then they did under Christian rule), all those who fought to occupy other nations or convert them by sword, etc.
....ummmm......yes. But it's not me. It's not like I said "E=MC2" out of my own mind. Einstein proved "E=MC2" and I quoted him. In this case, Jesus said who is and who isn't a "Christian" (actually, he defined who is his follower--the term "Christian" came after he had left the scene). I'm just affirming what he said: "Only those that do my father's will." So if you hate and kill, you're not his follower. That's why I say "the scripture" defines who is a Christian--not the individual.

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Amir Krause wrote: View Post
...I doubt any of you could safely point to his ancestry and claim they were Christians under the suggested rules.
Ancestry isn't involved. A Jew or Hindu or Muslim or atheist could instantly become a Christian by believing Jesus' words, renouncing his personal hatred (not saying that Judaism, Hinduism, Islam or Atheism are hateful systems) and his personal desire for retribution, accepting that "vengeance belongs only to God," accepting that we cannot judge man, but must leave it to God, and resolutely walking in that way. Likewise, children of sincere Christians can become murderers. Ancestry is irrelevant.

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Amir Krause wrote: View Post
I would further like to know how your definition deals with sinners? Are they supposed to be ousted of the Christian community (Jewish communities did and still do that for some actions/decisions), or is the persons definition as a Christian only acceptable retroactively (judging his actions with historical perspective is more just). If the community has not taken any action, can it be considered to be Christian based on those values?
I can't deal with Christianity on a community level because I can't identify community in the US anymore. It has vanished. In Christian terms, the mega-church, with its parking lot full of BMWs, Mercedes and Lexus and Cadillac SUVs, has replaced "community." And demographics tell us that those people overwhelmingly supported George Bush and Ronald Reagan as presidents, which is not a good sign of "Christianity" in my opinion.

However, on an individual level, a sinner has to repent and work to change his ways. Then it's between him and God. No man can judge whether God will accept another. So even historical judgment of his actions is useless.

However, again, on an individual level, sometimes it's better to personally choose not to associate with someone because they may well drag you down into their ways and their troubles. Or they could use your support to work their way into things they might otherwise have left alone.

I had a good friend who was heavily versed in the bible, but he thought it was okay to "rip off" those who were financially "better off" than he. He pulled eviction scams--stopped paying his rent, then when the landlord posted notice on his door that he was throwing the guy out, the guy went to the courthouse and filed a certain form that he knew all about. This automatically gave him 90 days' free rent, during which time, the landlord was subject to heavy fines and penalties if he threw the guy out. The guy would then stay rent-free until the day before the court had ordered that he be evicted. He would then skip out, leaving the apartment trashed, and go to a new place. He was getting evicted about once a year--sometimes more.

I thought this was just his incompetence until he tried it on an old man I knew, moved into the old guy's house and wouldn't get out, threatened to "own" the old man's house, etc. When I discussed this with him, be explained clearly how it worked. That was the first time I understood what he had been doing ever since I'd known him. He was a very nice and positive guy in so many other ways and had been a big help to me so many times, I just couldn't believe he would be doing something truly evil. And I might not even worry if he did this to a corporation that wouldn't perform basic maintenance anyway and would just write it off on their taxes, but he did this to old folks.

I helped the old man get that guy kicked out and quit associating with that guy. I saw him three or four times over the following ten years and only once sat down with him to buy him a cup of coffee and see where he stood with the world after I hadn't seen him for so long. He didn't seem to have changed, but I'm not the one to say. He died last year. Who knows?

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Amir Krause wrote: View Post
...No hard feelings, but I am trying to explain why the concept seems idealistic and very far from any real concept of religious communities to me.
Christianity (per Jesus) is not about heritage, lineage, ancestry or community. It's rather like Zen: an individual, direct relationship to God. You can be enlightened, but your wife might not be. When Jesus called a man to follow him, the man said, "Let me bury my father first." Jesus said, "Let the dead bury the dead."

He accepted nothing but following him and doing his Word. This is even very strange to most folks who call themselves "Christian" in America today. They want money and wars and vengeance, but they still want people to call them "Christian." They have created a "land of the free" that has more people in prison than any industrialized nation on earth--more than Russia. Show these people Psalm 146:7: "The LORD looseth the prisoners" and it's foolishness to them. (And just to clarify that this does not mean "prisoners of sin," or something metaphorical, show them Isaiah 42: "I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles; To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house."

America has certainly turned that backward.

No hard feelings at all.

Best to you.

David

Last edited by David Orange : 08-21-2007 at 10:15 AM.

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
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Old 08-21-2007, 11:58 AM   #149
Neil Mick
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Re: the devil can quote scripture...

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David Orange wrote:
....anyone talking to you will soon run out of "reasonable" arguments.
This discussion is over btw us, David: because you're going into extreme name-calling mode (the typical endpattern of most of your drawn-out expositions, here). And when you get this way, you seem to stop considering anyone else's views with anything but disdain.

As I said, I stop reading your voluminous insult-marathons after the 2nd or 3rd insult, but this one caught my eye:

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David Orange wrote: View Post
Yes, Neil. "erased from the pages of time" is a far more benign statement, isn't it?

But if you "can't wipe a country off a map," how can you "erase them from the pages of time"?
It's remarkably easy to imagine a regime "erased from the pages of time," when you aren't literal, and you don't have an agenda. It also aids comprehension to read, a little more carefully. Try it, sometime! The difference might be refreshing.


Consider the two phrases:

1. "Wipe a country off the map"

2. "this regime occupying Jerusalem (een rezhim-e ishghalgar-e qods) must [vanish from] the page of time (bayad az safheh-ye ruzgar mahv shavad)."

"A country" does not = "a regime occupying a region"

Example:

The Roman Empire has vanished from the ages of time;

but Italy still exists. Milan, as an independent county, however, has been "wiped off the map." Not the way a Persian might phrase it, but different, clearly, from the former statement.

Again, because I know you didn't get it the first time:

* The Soviet Empire has vanished from the pages of history. Russia, as a country, however, still exists.

Quote:
You're twisting this stuff so hard, you could make balloon animals out of it, Neil.
David
Yeah, I guess I just tend to ignore the bilious posturings of some name-calling post'er over the findings of a tenured scholar of Eastern culture (with links provided). Silly me...

Last edited by Neil Mick : 08-21-2007 at 12:05 PM.
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Old 08-21-2007, 12:14 PM   #150
David Orange
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Re: the devil can quote scripture...

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Neil Mick wrote: View Post
Silly me...
If only you were just silly, Neil. If only.

Even if you were just sort of dumb, it would be better than picking convenient interpretations to excuse the intent to obliterate a nation on racist and hateful bases.

But what you do is heinous, twisting like a devil to make the Bible say what is not in it, andto make the Koran not say what it says. And your motive simply seems to be petulance. You've set your mind that you understand that culture and that those who "fear" that their neighbor may bomb them or their children are worse than those who actually do the bombing.

And that's just sad. That's just sad. That's pathetic.

Hope you grow up, dude. Hope you have time.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

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