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Old 08-08-2007, 12:09 PM   #101
jennifer paige smith
 
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Re: A President's Thought

[quote=David Skaggs;185605]There is a race and it is about power and influence in the world. To the victor goes the spoils. If we don't run the race we will definitely become the spoils. If we run the race and win we get to decide how the spoils get treated not the terrorist.

"O Lord, shatter their gathering, divide them among themselves, shake the earth under their feet and give us control over them."

Osama Bin Laden"end of quote



I agree with a lot of this, David.

In the meantime, we are spoiling the Earth and last time I checked she wasn't very diplomatic about the whole thing either.

But that's enough for now. Thank You for the thought.

Last edited by jennifer paige smith : 08-08-2007 at 12:14 PM.

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Old 08-08-2007, 01:46 PM   #102
Neil Mick
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Re: Big Cheese

Quote:
David Orange wrote: View Post
the West is their enemy.

For people of that mind, simply destroying the enemy is enough for today, let come tomorrow what will.

David
"Us," versus "them."

I don't need to fall into that paradigm, even if my "enemy" has fallen prey to it. That's why aikido works.

"In true budo there is no enemy or opponent. True budo is to become one with the universe, not train to become powerful or to throw down some opponent. Rather we train in hopes of being of some use, however small our role may be, in the task of bringing peace to mankind around the world."

"Budo is not a means of felling the opponent by force or by lethal weapons. Neither is it intended to lead the world to destruction by arms and other illegitimate means. True Budo calls for bringing the inner energy of the universe in order, protecting the peace of the world , as well as preserving, everything in nature in its right form.
If your opponent tries to pull you, let him pull. Don't pull against him; pull in unison with him.

Aikido does not rely on weapons or brute force to succeed; instead we put ourselves in tune with the universe, maintain peace in our own realms, nurture life, and prevent death and destruction. The true meaning of the term "samurai" is one who serves and adheres to the power of love".

“There is no discord in love. There is no enemy of love. A mind of discord, thinking of the existence of an enemy is no more consistent with the will of the kami.”


Even as my "enemy" (assuming that "they" do plan empires: and it's NOT a NeoCon pipedream) plots to build fantastic "empires of Islam," against the "crusader:" I don't have to put on any ideological (read: racist) crusader's armor to deal with terrorism.

Indeed, if I do...I have already lost.

Last edited by Neil Mick : 08-08-2007 at 01:52 PM.
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Old 08-08-2007, 02:31 PM   #103
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Re: A President's Thought

...I felt the universe suddenly quake, and that a golden spirit sprang up from the ground, veiled my body, and changed my body into a golden one. At the same time my body became light. I was able to understand the whispering of the birds, and was clearly aware of the mind of god, the creator of the universe.

"At that moment I was enlightened: the source of budo is god's love - the spirit of loving protection for all beings... Budo is not the felling of an opponent by force; nor is it a tool to lead the world to destruction with arms. True Budo is to accept the spirit of the universe, keep the peace of the world, correctly produce, protect and cultivate all beings in nature.[11]"

"The Way of the Warrior has been misunderstood. It is not a means to kill and destroy others. Those who seek to compete and better one another are making a terrible mistake To smash, injure, or destroy is the worst thing a human being can do. The real Way of a Warrior is to prevent such slaughter - it is the Art of Peace, the power of love."

O'Sensei

"To smash, injure, or destroy is the worst thing a human being can do" but sometimes necessary to "keep the peace of the world", "protect", "to prevent such slaughter" in "the spirit of loving protection for all beings".

David
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Old 08-08-2007, 02:53 PM   #104
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Re: A President's Thought

Quote:
There is a race and it is about power and influence in the world. To the victor goes the spoils. If we don't run the race we will definitely become the spoils. If we run the race and win we get to decide how the spoils get treated not the terrorist.
Well said.

If you're hungry, keep moving.
If you're tired, keep moving.
If you value you're life, keep moving.

You don't own what you can't defend
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Old 08-13-2007, 02:47 PM   #105
Neil Mick
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Re: A President's Thought

Quote:
David Skaggs wrote: View Post
... god's love - the spirit of loving protection for all beings...

keep the peace of the world, correctly produce,

protect and cultivate all beings in nature.[11]"

"The real Way of a Warrior is to prevent such slaughter - it is the Art of Peace, the power of love."

O'Sensei
And exactly WHAT these quotes have to do with some prosaic "us v them" paradigm that you seem so stuck on...I'd really like to know.

The quotes I referenced all have to do with enemies, AKA "us v them (cf, the Cold War; the Allies v Axis; Europe v the East; Roundheads v Cavaliers ad nauseum); and how aikido is not focused upon making others into enemies.

OTOH, "Loving protection," and "preventing slaughter" has little to do with labelling a whole culture as the enemy, and hypothesizing that one extremist will one day become Calif of Islam.

Quote:
"To smash, injure, or destroy is the worst thing a human being can do" but sometimes necessary to "keep the peace of the world", "protect", "to prevent such slaughter" in "the spirit of loving protection for all beings".

David
..which is a nice, safe position to take, on a website frequented by martial artists.

Considering that we're talking worldviews and ideologies, however: such a worldview could easily turn, at worst, genocidal: and at best, discriminatory.

But since several of you are (willfully) not "getting it: let me draw the dots for the one who aren't being so willful.

1. Terrorists strike NYC, 2001. The President issues orders that hold OBL and Co responsible. Without giving the Taliban a chance to turn OBL over they bomb and invade Afghanistan, "accidentally" bombing the Al Jazeera station in the process.

2. It soon becomes abundantly clear that we cannot simply walk into a country and yank the malcontents out of a crowd, and march them off in chains. Cooler heads point out in order to catch OBL and other terrorists, we have to have the support of the Arab community.

3. The foreign intelligence agencies find themselves woefully unequipped to deal with finding intel on hostile internationals, especially in Afghanistan. They have almost NO Arabic-speaking agents at the start of the war; and ICE's mass detainments and extraditions of Arab's back home don't help the situation much, either.

4. We manage to depose the Taliban, install a former oil executive as puppet leader for Afghanistan. OBL is never caught; the much-touted reforms on the newly drafted constitution are forgotten; while the occupation drags on, nearly forgotten by the American people. The Taliban begins to rise in popular favor again: an alternative to the inability of the US to maintain security.

The heroin industry blooms.

5. Lacking the trust of the Arabs in Afghanistan and everywhere else (even amongst our so-called allies like Pakistan), the US leaders tell their soldiers that "the gloves are off." The occupiers offer rewards for "terrorists," and use mass-arrests and street-sweeps to apprehend "suspects."

6. Many people are tortured; an arbitrary and unnecessary system of quasi-justice is formed (completely outside international law and the Geneva Conventions); our own civil liberties and freedoms are being taken from us, and the general reputation of the US as the defender of freedom and human rights goes into the toilet.

Concurrently, many other countries follow suit, passing similar laws that curtail civil liberties in "emergencies." People die or are wrongfully imprisoned.

7. Back home, our President assures us that his chaotic foreign policy makes us safe, because there have been no attacks on US soil since we decided to turn Iraq into a running abattoir.

8. Meanwhile, the assaults against Islam and Muslims continue unabated. Invasion "cakewalks" turn into "long, hard slogs:" frontline (that is, from the safe, front lines of their desks, behind their monitors) warhawks in power get trounced out in a pathetic attempt to pretend that we have new strategies, and STILL, we villify the Arabs. Arabs get denied passage on airflights for wearing T-shirts with Arabic statements; and Arabic-language schools are under attack from the "leftwingbias'd" media:

Principal at New NYC Arabic-Language School Forced to Resign

Quote:
AMY GOODMAN: The Khalil Gibran International Academy will be New York City's first public school dedicated to the study of the Arabic language and Arab culture. It's due to open this fall, but ever since plans for the school were announced early this year, it's been the object of a well-orchestrated attack from local rightwing media and neoconservatives like Daniel Pipes. The New York Sun has been relentlessly hostile, calling the school a place that could “groom future radicals."

In the latest setback, the principal of the school, Debbie Almontaser, resigned last week under pressure after she was lambasted by the media for publicly explaining that the word “intifada” literally means “shaking off” in Arabic. Her remarks, made last weekend, were in response to questions from the New York Post over the phrase “Intifada NYC,” which was printed on T-shirts sold by Arab Women Active in the Arts and Media, or AWAAM, a Brooklyn-based girl's empowerment organization. The shirts have no relation to Almontaser’s school. She was widely criticized for not denouncing the use of the word and condemning its use on the T-shirt. On Wednesday, a headline in the New York Post called her the “Intifada Principal.” This weekend, an editorial in the paper had the headline, “What’s Arabic for ‘Shut It Down’?”

In a statement on Friday, Debbie Almontaser said she was stepping down as principal of the school. She wrote, “I became convinced yesterday that this week’s headlines were endangering the viability of Khalil Gibran International Academy, even though I apologized.”

Mayor Michael Bloomberg said he continued to support the school, but welcomed her departure. On his weekly radio program this weekend, Bloomberg said of Almontaser, “She's very smart. She's certainly not a terrorist. She really does care.”

Almontaser had a major hand in designing the Khalil Gibran the school. As described by its planners, it will offer a standard college preparatory curriculum, with instruction in Arabic each day and a focus on international studies.
Now I went and had a look at what "the opposition (your fave, Dave...Daniel Pipes)" had to say about this school. Yep, I like to hear what the "other side" has to say: and it took me only five minutes to "spot the mendacity:"

On New York's "Khalil Gibran International Academy"

Quote:
My take on the school: In principle it is a great idea – the United States needs more Arabic-speakers.
Yes, even Pipes acknowledges the need for greater understanding...before he pulls out his big chopper:

Quote:
In practice, however, Arabic instruction is heavy with Islamist and Arabist overtones and demands. For one powerful first-hand example of this problem at the collegiate level, see "Middlebury's Arabic Morass" by Franck Salameh. He explains:

even as students leave Middlebury with better Arabic, they also leave indoctrinated with a tendentious Arab nationalist reading of Middle Eastern history. Permeating lectures and carefully-designed grammatical drills, Middlebury instructors push the idea that Arab identity trumps local identities and that respect for minority ethnic and sectarian communities betrays Arabism.

For another specific case, see Shukri B. Abed, Focus on Contemporary Arabic: Conversations with Native Speakers (New Haven: Yale University Press, 2007); YUP conveniently has posted the table of contents (if backwards), where one chapter deals with "The Question of Palestine." The chapter contains eleven readings. To give an example of their flavor, the fifth of them states that the "Palestinian problem" is at base an issue of justice in which the Palestinians are the victims of a double standard.
Gods! Such a radical thought! That 500,000+ Palestinian's were forced off their lands in 1948, never to be allowed to return...while Jews are allowed to emigrate anytime they feel to Israel, is NOT a double standard??

Um, OK, never mind. It gets better...

Quote:
For the heavy Islamic freight that Arabic instruction carries, see "Does Learning Arabic Prevent Moral Decay?" where one learns that some Muslims believe "Knowledge of Arabic can then help the Western countries recover from the present moral decay." (This is not as surprising as it sounds, for Muslims commonly assume that a non-Muslim who learns Arabic is en route to conversion to Islam; I experienced this many times during my Cairo years.)
OK, this is just plain silly on its face. Oh, I'm "sure" that Pipes met TONS of people under the impression that non-Muslims studying Arabic are on their way to conversion...riiiight.

This nonfact ignores that there are many, many Muslims who aren't even Islamic. In short,,,NEXT!

But Pipes is engaging in something that several post'ers here like to do, and that's put words in ppl's mouths. Here, let's look at what Pipes was referring, when he mentioned "moral decay."

Quote:
The Islamist dimension worries me as well. An organization that lobbies for Arabic instruction, the Arabic Language Institute Foundation, claims that knowledge of Islam's holy language can help the West recover from what its leader, Akhtar H. Emon, calls its "moral decay." In other words, Muslims tend to see non-Muslims learning Arabic as a step toward an eventual conversion to Islam, an expectation I encountered while studying Arabic in Cairo in the 1970s.
And now let's look at Pipes' source:

Bringing Arabic to U.S. / Canadian High Schools

Quote:
Arabic is the language of the Qur'an. In order to convey the message of Qur'an in North America and Europe, we have to first deliver its language. Knowledge of Arabic can then help the Western countries recover from the present moral decay. Shootings of the likes in Columbine High School, and an Diego schools are the symptoms and the signs (Ayah) from Allah. High School students in North America deserve better than the metal detectors to protect them. The whole system of education needs a moral shake-up. The Arabic Language Institute Foundation (ALIF), a Los Angeles-based organization is committed to this goal.
Generally, Arabs consider the West to be in a form of moral decay. They look at our violence and sex in our mass media and entertainment; our slavish media-attention to our movie-stars and ignorance of the greater issues, and they call it "moral decay."

Pipes extracts this to mean that Arab-language educators are out to make extremist madrassas, in our midst (note the ghoulish "war on Terror" banner):

A Madrasa Grows In Brooklyn

Quote:
Come September, an Arabic-language public secondary school is slated to open its doors in Brooklyn.

This appears to be a marvelous idea, for New York and the country need native-born Arabic speakers.

In practice, however, I strongly oppose the KGIA and predict that its establishment will generate serious problems. I say this because Arabic-language instruction is inevitably laden with pan-Arabist and Islamist baggage.
Watch again, while he employs his spin:

Quote:
The Islamist dimension worries me as well. An organization that lobbies for Arabic instruction, the Arabic Language Institute Foundation, claims that knowledge of Islam's holy language can help the West recover from what its leader, Akhtar H. Emon, calls its "moral decay." In other words, Muslims tend to see non-Muslims learning Arabic as a step toward an eventual conversion to Islam, an expectation I encountered while studying Arabic in Cairo in the 1970s.
"in other words..." Pipes will now spoonfeed what he thinks Akhtar Emon was saying. And it just gets worse from there:

Quote:
Arabs or Muslims, Ms. Almontaser says, are innocent of the terrorist attacks of September 11, 2001: "I don't recognize the people who committed the attacks as either Arabs or Muslims."
Oh, the horror, the horror...

Quote:
Instead, she blames September 11 on Washington's foreign policies, saying they "can have been triggered by the way the USA breaks its promises with countries across the world, especially in the Middle East, and the fact that it has not been a fair mediator."
Save a spot in Gitmo for this one! But no: Pipes' good works are already evident: he and his cronies managed to force a strong force in bringing what he himself admits we very much need, to resign, based solely upon his own fears and the political views of the woman.

Not ONE SHRED of evidence so far has been brought forth, suggesting that these people wish to promote anti-Western views.

(thinking a culture corrupt does not = being opposed to it.

A few years' ago I had a conversation with a rightwing aikidoist, who felt that our culture was "polluted." He used the term "cultural pollution" several times, and I could hardly doubt that he thought himself pro-American).

Instead, we force our academics to resign based upon fear. Hardly an efficient means to "win the war on terror."

Last edited by Neil Mick : 08-13-2007 at 02:51 PM.
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Old 08-14-2007, 03:12 PM   #106
Amir Krause
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Re: A President's Thought

Hi Neil

Happy to see you are back.

I support your view regarding the reaching of Arabic and Arabic culture, but would like to point out, that your grasp of the "currupt elements" in the western culture does not match the impression I got so far, when I heared quite a few arab speakers on TV:
Quote:
Generally, Arabs consider the West to be in a form of moral decay. They look at our violence and sex in our mass media and entertainment; our slavish media-attention to our movie-stars and ignorance of the greater issues, and they call it "moral decay."
My impression was that quite a few Arabs find one root of western world curruption in the status of woman in our societies, compared to theirs. The women liberation, is generally viewed is corruption by many Arab speakers. I recently saw a documentry about this and heard some local Arab leaders talk of their opposing new trends wich enter the women in thier community. A similar thing happened recently with an Arab Israeli singer who joined the "a star is born" competition and got lots of resentment in her own community. Being a new celebrity, it was published beyond proportion.
There are a few other similar issues, such as parents rights over their children, precedence of law or custom, real freedom of religion and from religion. In general, it is a clash of liberal concepts and values, with another culture, which hasits own concepts and values, and is often not even open to debate on the fundamental tenents - given by God.
By the way, the above resentment and feeling of corruption is not unique to the Arab world, it is a trate of most traditional societies when facing the modern liberal west. And you can count the Orthodox Jews as one of those societies too. At times this even causes very strange and supposeddly impossible poltical couplings here, of the right extremists and the Arabs.

However, if one wishes to discuss fundamental concepts with another, he should at least learn a little about him. While learning Aikido we learn a lot about Japanese. What is so wrong in learning of other cultures? (I am assuming your learning process is not assimilation, but rather a critical study - indicating the negatives as well as the positives. Otherwise, you are not learning - you are being indocrinated, and all cultures love to do the latter in the disguise of the former)

Amir

(could not use the speller this time, sorry)
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Old 08-15-2007, 11:57 AM   #107
Neil Mick
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Re: A President's Thought

Quote:
Amir Krause wrote: View Post
Hi Neil

Happy to see you are back.
Hi Amir,

Thank you...altho my partner is accusing me of being a forum-addict (the worrisome thing is...she's probably right ).

Quote:
I support your view regarding the reaching of Arabic and Arabic culture,
Good, then we are pretty much in agreement.

Quote:
but would like to point out, that your grasp of the "currupt elements" in the western culture does not match the impression I got so far, when I heared quite a few arab speakers on TV:

My impression was that quite a few Arabs find one root of western world curruption in the status of woman in our societies, compared to theirs. The women liberation, is generally viewed is corruption by many Arab speakers.
I have several thoughts on this. Yes, Sharia law could be interpreted in some countries to be detrimental to women's rights, but...

Quote:
Islam has no clergy, but women may become religious scholars. In practice, it is much more common for men to be scholars than women. Early Muslim scholars such as Abu-Hanifa and Al-Tabary held that there is nothing wrong with women holding a post as responsible as that of judge. Many interpretations of Islamic law hold that women may not have prominent jobs, and thus are forbidden from working in the government. This has been a mainstream view in many Muslim nations in the last century, despite the example of Muhammad's wife Aisha, who both took part in politics and was a major authority on hadith. Islam does not prohibit women from working, as it says "Treat your women well and be kind to them for they are your partners and committed helpers."[20] Married women may seek employment although it is often thought in patriarchal societies that the woman's role as a wife and mother should have first priority.

Islam unequivocally allows both single and married women to own property in their own right. Islam restored to women the right to inherit property, in contrast with some cultures where women themselves are considered chattels that can be inherited.
There even is a feminist movement within Islam:

Quote:
Islamic feminism is a form of feminism concerned with the role of women in Islam. It aims for the full equality of all Muslims, regardless of sex or gender, in public and private life. Islamic feminists advocate women's rights, gender equality, and social justice grounded in an Islamic framework. Although rooted in Islam, the movement's pioneers have also utilised secular and Western feminist discourses and recognise the role of Islamic feminism as part of an integrated global feminist movement[1]. Advocates of the movement seek to highlight the deeply rooted teachings of equality in the Quran and encourage a questioning of the patriarchal interpretation of Islamic teaching through the Quran (holy book), hadith (sayings of Muhammed) and sharia (law) towards the creation of a more equal and just society.[2] In general, it can be categorised as one of the more liberal movements within Islam.
But sure, I'd say that many Muslim countries need a ways to go before they have what could properly be called equal rights. I also find the practice of female circumcision in many African Islamic countries to be particularly barbaric.

But, aren't these facets of the region, rather than Islam? Sure, many leaders claim Sharia law as they trounce on women's rights: but aren't they just using Islam as a "handy excuse" to enforce their barbarism?

I don't know, but this is somewhat tangential to the main issue of my debate. I was talking more about putting words and simplistic ideas in people's mouths and heads. When Akhtar Emon was talking about "moral decay," he stated:

Quote:
Akhtar Emon wrote:
Shootings of the likes in Columbine High School, and an Diego schools are the symptoms and the signs (Ayah) from Allah. High School students in North America deserve better than the metal detectors to protect them. The whole system of education needs a moral shake-up.
From this, Daniel Pipes assumes that

Quote:
In practice, however, Arabic instruction is heavy with Islamist and Arabist overtones and demands.
In effect, he is suggesting that Islamic studies will "brainwash" kids into fundamentalist extremism, and that this is the goal of the Islamic educators.

I have a real problem with how Pipes gets from "A" to "B." He makes allegations without a single shred of evidence to base his fear.

Sure, Islamic culture (in some areas of the world) lacks the foundation of women's rights that I wish they'd have (and feel that one day, they'll attain), but this is more about a NeoConservative using fear and ignorance to attack a much-needed institution in this country.

Quote:
I recently saw a documentry about this and heard some local Arab leaders talk of their opposing new trends wich enter the women in thier community. A similar thing happened recently with an Arab Israeli singer who joined the "a star is born" competition and got lots of resentment in her own community. Being a new celebrity, it was published beyond proportion.
There are a few other similar issues, such as parents rights over their children, precedence of law or custom, real freedom of religion and from religion. In general, it is a clash of liberal concepts and values, with another culture, which hasits own concepts and values, and is often not even open to debate on the fundamental tenents - given by God.
Yes...all agreed. Some Islamic societies DO have a long way to go, in their treatment of women. But again: the treatment varies throughout the Islamic world. Women in Afghanistan (or Africa), for example, have it worse off than women in Jordan.

By the way, the above resentment and feeling of corruption is not unique to the Arab world, it is a trate of most traditional societies when facing the modern liberal west. And you can count the Orthodox Jews as one of those societies too. At times this even causes very strange and supposeddly impossible poltical couplings here, of the right extremists and the Arabs.

Quote:
However, if one wishes to discuss fundamental concepts with another, he should at least learn a little about him. While learning Aikido we learn a lot about Japanese. What is so wrong in learning of other cultures? (I am assuming your learning process is not assimilation, but rather a critical study - indicating the negatives as well as the positives. Otherwise, you are not learning - you are being indocrinated, and all cultures love to do the latter in the disguise of the former)

Amir
Yep, total agreement with you, again (gosh, this must be some sort of record! We AGREE so much! But actually, I bet we'd agree on a LOT of issues, if we sat down and had a discussion in realtime...)
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Old 08-16-2007, 02:55 AM   #108
Amir Krause
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Re: A President's Thought

Neil

Quote:
I have a real problem with how Pipes gets from "A" to "B." He makes allegations without a single shred of evidence to base his fear.
I don't know Pipes, So I could not comment on any of his ideas or interpretations.

Quote:
But sure, I'd say that many Muslim countries need a ways to go before they have what could properly be called equal rights. I also find the practice of female circumcision in many African Islamic countries to be particularly barbaric.

But, aren't these facets of the region, rather than Islam? Sure, many leaders claim Sharia law as they trounce on women's rights: but aren't they just using Islam as a "handy excuse" to enforce their barbarism?
I chose "women's rights" as an example for a significant difference in values between a traditional society and the modern western liberal society. As I implied, you could find quite a few other such fundamental differences in values and concepts, including education, science, and tolerance towards other cultures.
A horrifying example of the last is the report I heard yesterday on the radio about the Suny Al-Kaieda massacre of some religious group which resided in a couple of villages near the Kurds in Iraq. Such actions, driven only by faith, are unimaginable in modern western liberal society. For contemplating such actions in the latter society, a leader would have to persuade his soldiers these people are a threat to their own, the difference in faith \ origin in itself would not be sufficient reason, and he would have to expect significant repercussions from within his society.
I wish to emphasize, I am not talking of Islam rather on traditional societies. Similar moral can be found in other traditional cultures, look at the genocides in Africa, or a totally different level (incomparable), the reasoning driving fundamental Jewish orthodox rioting for the protection of own against the law, or the reasoning driving fundamental Christians fighting against abortions.

People blame Islam, as though it is only a characteristic of the problem, a cultural clash between a certain traditional culture and the modern western liberal society.

When you try to look at modern interpretations of Islam, and show there is no reason for the surrounding cultural habits (as in your above quote). You are doing the same mistake, talking of the features of a characteristic, rather then concentrating on the real issue.
An Islamic believer could belong to the modern western liberal society.

Amir
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Old 08-16-2007, 01:48 PM   #109
Mike Sigman
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Re: A President's Thought

Quote:
Neil Mick wrote: View Post
I have a real problem with how Pipes gets from "A" to "B." He makes allegations without a single shred of evidence to base his fear.
Geez.... those wonderful, peaceful, Islamic "cultures":

http://www.examiner.com/a-883730~Joh...ll_it_be_.html

It must be Bush's fault.

Mike
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Old 08-17-2007, 02:44 AM   #110
Taliesin
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Re: A President's Thought

As opposed to wonderful, peaceful, 'Christian' cultures I suppose.
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Old 08-17-2007, 07:19 AM   #111
Mike Sigman
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Re: A President's Thought

I realize the West-haters will always try to spin it out with moral relativism, but look at the numbers that have stretched out over the centuries and continue into the present.... there is no comparison between Islam and Christianity. The rest of the world has moved on... Islam is still medieval and barbaric. The rest of the world is making microchips; Islamic countries are making potato chips and killing anyone who doesn't conform to their beliefs. Of course, there are those who simply trivialize the deaths of others in order to shelter partisan belief, but that says enough in itself.

John Kerry, BTW, when recently asked about the 2 million or so who died in Cambodia, Laos, and Vietnam when the US was pulled out of the war, said, "It didn't happen". He wrote an extremely silly letter to the WSJ trying to explain how people misunderstood his words, when he was called on it. Let's not be just as silly about what Islam is doing now, in the present, by trying to bring up the Crusades (you know, which started when Mohammed won his civil war, killed all Jews and Christians on the peninsula, and started taxing Christians to see the Holy Land?).

Mike
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Old 08-17-2007, 07:51 AM   #112
Budd
 
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Re: A President's Thought

I'm also wondering why it's okay for a religious leader on one side to call for the deaths of pretty much anyone (outside and within their own faith) not in their specific sect, but when a religious leader on the other side calls aspects of the original religious practice "barbaric", the representatives of the original religion then go kill multiple persons of the other religion in "protest".

Seems to be kind of proving the second group's point . . .

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Old 08-17-2007, 08:07 AM   #113
Taliesin
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Re: A President's Thought

Mike - as you're an American - perhaps to can explain what those nice christian soldiers did at Sand Creek, perhaps you to want to explain the 'Christian' philosophy of Manifest Destiny, perhaps you can explain the mass of 'Christian' (WASP)serial killers in the USA, or those nice Catholic Mafiosi, or the Christian KKK

And that's before you get to the history of Christians throughout the world - in places like, say, Northern Ireland,

By the way the argument that because they are committing 'worse' atrocities than 'us' we are the good guys IS MORAL RELATIVISM . - Saying both atrocities committed by 'our' side and 'their' side are both wrong is not. (because unlike your argument it is not based 'relative' merits).
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Old 08-17-2007, 08:22 AM   #114
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Re: A President's Thought

Quote:
David Chalk wrote: View Post
Mike - as you're an American - perhaps to can explain what those nice christian soldiers did at Sand Creek,
Is this a joke? We're talking hundreds of thousands and millions of people being killed worldwide by Islam and you bring up the hundreds-of-years-old Sand Creek Massacre as a comparison? Don't get me started on the fictional "Indian as Victim" thing.... real history was quite different from what you saw on the BBC. Indians killed each other and decimated entire tribes at a rate the whites never surpassed. There is growing evidence that there were other peoples (from Asia, perhaps Europe, and the Pacific) before the current Indians migrated to North America.... all those people were killed off, as were the species of many animals indigenous to North America. There's always 2 sides to a story, David... not just the "hate-America; hate-the-West" version.

But back to Islam. Notice that in response to the overwhelming numbers of deaths perpetrated world-wide and over the centuries, all you could do was try to shift the discussion and blame somewhere else instead of commenting on the actual facts of what I said.

Mike Sigman
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Old 08-18-2007, 04:26 PM   #115
Neil Mick
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racism, redux

Hi Amir,

Quote:
Amir Krause wrote: View Post
I am not talking of Islam rather on traditional societies. Similar moral can be found in other traditional cultures, look at the genocides in Africa, or a totally different level (incomparable), the reasoning driving fundamental Jewish orthodox rioting for the protection of own against the law, or the reasoning driving fundamental Christians fighting against abortions.

People blame Islam, as though it is only a characteristic of the problem, a cultural clash between a certain traditional culture and the modern western liberal society.
OK, I think we have a meeting of minds, on this. Sure, traditional societies (or, societies bound by tribal connections) will sometimes use religion as a catalyst to attack someone else.

I don't think we disagree on that issue.

Quote:
When you try to look at modern interpretations of Islam, and show there is no reason for the surrounding cultural habits (as in your above quote). You are doing the same mistake, talking of the features of a characteristic, rather then concentrating on the real issue. An Islamic believer could belong to the modern western liberal society.
Yes, there IS a big place for Islamic believers in modern western society. And, of course, it goes without saying that Islam affects the culture and politics, and the practice of Islam is affected, in turn, by the conditions of the people living there. Salafism, for example, is a good example of how religious attitudes change in reaction to physical realities.

Salafism is a reaction to the “corruption” of “modern” influences.

Quote:
wikipedia wrote:
Perhaps the principal tenet of Salafism is that Islam was perfect and complete during the days of Muhammad and his companions, but that undesirable innovations have been added over the later centuries due to materialist and cultural influences.
Quote:
Amir wrote:
A horrifying example of the last is the report I heard yesterday on the radio about the Suny Al-Kaieda massacre of some religious group which resided in a couple of villages near the Kurds in Iraq. Such actions, driven only by faith, are unimaginable in modern western liberal society.
Terrible news, wasn't it?

Quote:
Iraq Suicide Bomb Toll Could Top 500

At least five hundred people are now feared dead from Tuesday’s massive suicide bombing in northern Iraq. The initial toll of two-hundred fifty had already made it the deadliest attack of the Iraq war. Rescue workers continue to pull bodies from the rubble of more than thirty destroyed buildings, including several homes. The bombings targeted a Kurdish area home to followers of the Yazidi religion. Three suicide trucks carrying two tons of explosives attacked almost simultaneously.
Quote:
I don't know Pipes, So I could not comment on any of his ideas or interpretations.
Daniel Pipes

Quote:
Daniel Pipes (born September 9, 1949) is an American historian and counter-terrorism analyst who specializes in the Middle East. He has written or co-written 18 books, maintains a blog, and lectures around the world presenting his analysis of world trends. His work has attracted both admiration and criticism as a result of his view that Islamism is incompatible with democracy, freedom, multiculturalism, and human rights.
In short, Daniel Pipes is a fearmonger.

But, you have it lucky, in a sense, Amir. Your media has a much clearer picture of the situation than it is over here. On this side of the world, the picture is very simple…black and white.

Quote:
David Chalk wrote: View Post
As opposed to wonderful, peaceful, 'Christian' cultures I suppose.
Hi David,

I'm not sure why you're even bothering. In the world according to Mike: there simply IS no such thing as "moderates" in Islam. To read his posts, you'd think that all Islamic peoples support extremism.

To support his arguments, he offers up a sequence of conflations, generalizations and exaggerations, such as

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
Geez.... those wonderful, peaceful, Islamic "cultures":

http://www.examiner.com/a-883730~Joh...ll_it_be_.html
when any objective reader can easily research this to show how wrong he is. There are plenty of statements and examples of Muslim and Islamic groups who oppose violence:

U.S. MUSLIM RELIGIOUS COUNCIL ISSUES FATWA AGAINST TERRORISM
Quote:
The Fiqh Council of North America wishes to reaffirm Islam's absolute condemnation of terrorism and religious extremism.
Islam strictly condemns religious extremism and the use of violence against innocent lives. There is no justification in Islam for extremism or terrorism. Targeting civilians’ life and
property through suicide bombings or any other method of attack is haram – or forbidden - and those who commit these barbaric acts are criminals, not “martyrs.”
Israeli Occupation Conflict 101

Quote:
Q: I only hear about Palestinian terrorist or nationalist groups. Where is the Palestinian "voice for peace"?

A: There are many different Palestinian peace groups, just as there are many different Israeli and Jewish peace groups. Unfortunately, we hear little about them in the media, even the Israeli and Arab media. But they are active, and, just like the Israeli peace camp, some part of them is also reflected in Palestinian leadership.
It was Israel that cut off negotiations with the Palestinian Authority in January 2001 at Taba, when, according to all parties involved, a deal had never been closer. Ehud Barak was about to be voted out, and he felt unable to present compromises to the Israeli public amid the violence that was occurring and being at the end of his tenure. From reports from both sides, this included being closer than ever to an agreement on the Palestinian refugees, final borders and Jerusalem. Surely this indicates some willingness, on both sides, to reach peace.

There are many Palestinian groups and individuals who are working for peace and justice for both sides. These include the Palestinian National Initiative led by Mustafa Barghouti; the Miftah human rights NGO led by Hanan Ashrawi; the Palestinian Center for Rapprochement in Bet Sahur; the Holy Land Trust in Bethlehem; the Palestinian Center for Human Rights led by Raji Sourani; Wi?am, the Palestinian Center for Conflict Resolution, headed by Zoughbi Zoughbi; the respected psychiatrist Iyad al-Sarraj in Gaza, who has been the head of the Palestinian Independent Commission for Citizens' Rights; the joint Palestinian-Israeli women's peace group, the Jerusalem Link, whose Palestinian half is called the Jerusalem Center for Women. Many of these groups are known throughout the Palestinians territories and are enormously respected. They are all quite active, and there are many similar groups.
The Palestinian Initiative for Global Dialogue and Democracy

Quote:
Established in December 1998, with Hanan Ashrawi as its Secretary-General, MIFTAH's aim is to serve as a Palestinian platform for global dialogue and cooperation guided by the principles of democracy, human rights, gender equity, and participatory governance. To this end, MIFTAH undertakes the pro-active generation and presentation of policy proposals and the focused dissemination of reliable information.
The Palestinian Centre for Human Rights

Quote:
The Centre is an independent Palestinian human rights organization based in Gaza City. The Centre was established in 1995 by a group of Palestinian lawyers and human rights activists in order to:

Protect human rights and promote the rule of law in accordance with international standards.

Create and develop democratic institutions and an active civil society, while promoting democratic culture within Palestinian society.

Support all the efforts aimed at enabling the Palestinian people to exercise its inalienable rights in regard to self-determination and independence in accordance with international Law and UN resolutions.
The Holy Land Trust

Quote:
Mission Statement
Holy Land Trust seeks to strengthen and encourage the Palestinian community by providing it with the means to build a future founded on the principles of nonviolence, justice and peace. This is realized through creating local and global awareness programs, engaging in advocacy initiatives, and building of global networks and partnerships.
The Free Muslims Coalition

Quote:
Taking our religion back one Muslim at a time
We believe in the re-interpretation of Islam for the 21st century where terrorism is not justified under any circumstances.

We believe in the separation of religion and state.

We believe that democracy is the best form of government.

We believe in the promotion of secularism in all forms of political activity.

We believe that equality for women is an inalienable right.

We believe that religion is a personal relationship between the individual and his or her God and is not to be forced on anyone.
Muslims Against Terrorism

Mike chooses not to acknowledge these groups, all the while conflating all Muslims with extremism. But more on that later.

Quote:
Taliesin wrote:
Mike - as you're an American - perhaps to can explain what those nice christian soldiers did at Sand Creek, perhaps you to want to explain the 'Christian' philosophy of Manifest Destiny, perhaps you can explain the mass of 'Christian' (WASP)serial killers in the USA, or those nice Catholic Mafiosi, or the Christian KKK

And that's before you get to the history of Christians throughout the world - in places like, say, Northern Ireland,

By the way the argument that because they are committing 'worse' atrocities than 'us' we are the good guys IS MORAL RELATIVISM . - Saying both atrocities committed by 'our' side and 'their' side are both wrong is not. (because unlike your argument it is not based 'relative' merits).
But I'm a little surprised that you're trying to argue relativism with Mike...AGAIN. His M.O. is all too familiar: posit a series of strawmen and unsourceable facts to buttress his prosaic notions.

Take, for instance, his directive to

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
look at the numbers that have stretched out over the centuries and continue into the present.... there is no comparison between Islam and Christianity.
Yes...let's do that: let's "look at the numbers."

um....

Hello? Does anyone actually HAVE an accurate set of statistics for all the deaths caused by Muslim extremism, as opposed to all the deaths caused by Christian extremism (considering such historical highlights as the Crusades; the Inquisition; germ warfare unleashed on the Amerindian; the US Sanctions (over 1.5 million children "served")??

Shout out if you do: Mike's strawmen are looking a little deflated.

So Mike bases his statements on unprovable "facts," peppered liberally with distortions...

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
Indians killed each other and decimated entire tribes at a rate the whites never surpassed. There is growing evidence
(I'd so love to see this "growing evidence," but if his past record of sourcing is any indication...perhaps not. Looking up Mike's references is more akin to watching a straw man's reflection endlessly repeated in a hall of mirrors...all style, but empty of much else beyond speculation.

IMO, you could file this "growing evidence" under "some people say..." and other pseudo-factual opinions proferred by those stalwarts at FoxNews and the like ).

Quote:
that there were other peoples (from Asia, perhaps Europe, and the Pacific) before the current Indians migrated to North America.... all those people were killed off, as were the species of many animals indigenous to North America.
Yeah, this PROVES how barbaric the Amerindians were..and so the US Army was perfectly justified in taking their lands, outlawing their culture (as was done via the Bureau of Indian Affairs), parcelling out tender gifts of smallpox-infected blankets, to the unknowing tribes, coining such wonderful sentiments on human kindness as "the only good Indian is a dead Indian (originally coined by a US Army general)." .

In sum, Mike cannot seem to distinguish moderate supporters of Islam from the extremists. Imagine if everything I said about Christians were focused upon abortion clinic bombers and extremists?

If I were specifically talking about one race of people...distorting their religious beliefs as some mass-excuse for all the chaos and violence going on in the region where they live: you might surmise that I was a racist. And you know what? You'd be right.

Mike likes to delineate the "modern West" from "Muslims." Try an experiment--go back to Mike's previous posts on the subject. Whenever he mentions "Islam," he's talking almost entirely about extremists. But as Amir and I have amply illustrated above: Muslims DO have a place in Western society. It's unfortunate that some people can only see things through the wafer-thin lens of prejudice and racism.

What surprises me, though, is why you carry on the same debate with him, over and over again. At this point, I can practically write Mike's responses for him: he's getting so predictable.

IMO, he should just save time and limit his responses to reconstituted old quotes of himself...he's hardly brought anything new to the debating table, in quite some time.

Last edited by Neil Mick : 08-18-2007 at 04:41 PM.
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Old 08-19-2007, 07:10 AM   #116
Taliesin
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Re: A President's Thought

Neil

Would not replying to Mike be depriving him of an opportunity to brandish his ignorance and therefore amount to cruel and unusual punishment?

BTW - even if Mike could dig up credible evidence (unlikely but theoretically possible) he would still be doing nothing but making a relativist argument - ie bombing Dresden, Hiroshima and Nagasaki, or Oklahoma City, wasn't as bad as what Moslems do.

Mike

I appreciate your dedication to Moral Relativism - Indian's killed each other, often to obtain bounties paid by Christians (for scalps), therefore the atrocities 'we' Christians committed aren't so bad, therefore we are the good guys.(After all there was never anything wrong with basing Slavery on the Bible)

and your inability to explain the mass of 'Christian' (WASP)serial killers in the USA (& UK), or those nice Catholic Mafiosi, or the Christian KKK -

or do you take the view that "the old truth is confirmed: 'What one Christian does is his own responsibility, what one Muslim does is thrown back at all Muslims.'" (To paraphrase a well known diarist)

PS: And if Sand Creek is too far in the past what about Me Lai (spl),
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Old 08-19-2007, 11:18 AM   #117
Neil Mick
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Re: A President's Thought

Quote:
David Chalk wrote: View Post
Neil

Would not replying to Mike be depriving him of an opportunity to brandish his ignorance and therefore amount to cruel and unusual punishment?
Isn't it cruel and unusual punishment to read the same posts every time the word "Arab" or "Islam" is mentioned? Who's torturing whom?

Quote:
BTW - even if Mike could dig up credible evidence (unlikely but theoretically possible)
OK, I have a great imagination! I am imagining an alternate universe where Mike presents credible evidence.

Concentrating....concentrating...

temperature rising...vision, blurring! Rage, taking OVER!

Nope, sorry. It's just beyond my superpowers to imagine.

Quote:
he would still be doing nothing but making a relativist argument - ie bombing Dresden, Hiroshima and Nagasaki, or Oklahoma City, wasn't as bad as what Moslems do.
Yes, beheading four contractors trumps millions of people systematically starved and bombed for 10 years (with an illegal invasion and occupation, for dessert), every time...
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Old 08-19-2007, 11:51 AM   #118
jennifer paige smith
 
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Re: A President's Thought

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
Is this a joke? We're talking hundreds of thousands and millions of people being killed worldwide by Islam and you bring up the hundreds-of-years-old Sand Creek Massacre as a comparison? Don't get me started on the fictional "Indian as Victim" thing.... real history was quite different from what you saw on the BBC. Indians killed each other and decimated entire tribes at a rate the whites never surpassed. There is growing evidence that there were other peoples (from Asia, perhaps Europe, and the Pacific) before the current Indians migrated to North America.... all those people were killed off, as were the species of many animals indigenous to North America. There's always 2 sides to a story, David... not just the "hate-America; hate-the-West" version.

But back to Islam. Notice that in response to the overwhelming numbers of deaths perpetrated world-wide and over the centuries, all you could do was try to shift the discussion and blame somewhere else instead of commenting on the actual facts of what I said.

Mike Sigman
They aren't being killed by 'Islam'. They are being killed by bombs, guns, mines, starvation, dehydration and disease and ,perhaps, overpopulation.
"Guns don't kill people. People kill people."-bumpersticker

So, in some peples hands 'Islam' is a gun. Just as in some peoples hands a sword is a means to kill rather than a method of powerful life generating wisdom (Takemusu Aiki Budo).

Not a relative moralism here I don't think either; Simply a more direct equation. Just add any 'ism' or 'ity' or 'do'.

Jennifer Paige Smith
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Old 08-19-2007, 03:00 PM   #119
David Orange
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Christians?

Quote:
David Chalk wrote: View Post
...or do you take the view that "the old truth is confirmed: 'What one Christian does is his own responsibility, what one Muslim does is thrown back at all Muslims.'" (To paraphrase a well known diarist)
A person cannot define himself as a Christian except by his deeds. If someone murders, though he might call himself a Christian, he's going against all the Christian scripture. He cannot do it and "be" a Christian, though he can "call" himself a Christian.

However, there are many passages in the Koran and the hadiths that can be construed to demand the murder (literally "murder") of non-believers, Christians, Jews, atheists and other non-muslims. Many muslims and western apologists tell us that these passages refer to specific historical situations, certain conditions, etc., etc., so that they are not actual calls to murder. Yet fatwas of death are issued even today for people like Salmaan Rushdie. And Mr. Van Gogh in the Netherlands had a note stabbed into his chest citing Islamic reasons for his murder.

We can argue whether those killers are muslims but they can quote the Koran as justification. No one can quote Christ or any of his disciples or the apostles to justify any killing. Christianity in fact puts one at quite a disadvantage in secular matters.

Further, I'm not familiar with too many murderers or mass murderers who have even called themselves "Christians." Well...there's George Bush....but we're not talking politicians here. Did William Calley say that he was acting as a Christian at My Lai? Many people list Tim McVeigh as "a Christian murderer," yet I don't recall ever having seen where McVeigh called himself a Christian or that he attempted to justify murder with Christian scripture. It cannot be done.

But back to Bush. I remember someone on these boards saying he liked Bush "because he's not afraid to say he's a Christian."

But any snake-oil salesman is proud to call himself a Christian if it helps him peddle his poison and Christian scriptures say, "By their fruits you shall know them."

Bush is a cruel person who walks on the poor for the benefit of the rich. He has destabilized the entire world and is responsible for probably hundreds of thousands of deaths worldwide. The only way I would associate "Christ" with his name would be in the term "Anti-Christ."

David

Last edited by David Orange : 08-19-2007 at 03:03 PM.

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
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Old 08-19-2007, 03:33 PM   #120
Mike Sigman
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Re: Christians?

Quote:
David Orange wrote: View Post
I'm not familiar with too many murderers or mass murderers who have even called themselves "Christians." Well...there's George Bush
You know, I'm not a defender of George Bush, but he's at least got a little humanity and a lot less ego in him than some of the opinionaters in our extremist elements. That was a fairly sickening comment.

Mike Sigman
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Old 08-19-2007, 04:36 PM   #121
Neil Mick
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the devil can quote scripture...

Quote:
David Orange wrote: View Post
A person cannot define himself as a Christian except by his deeds. If someone murders, though he might call himself a Christian, he's going against all the Christian scripture. He cannot do it and "be" a Christian, though he can "call" himself a Christian.
Yeah, what a kindhearted ode to loving peacefulness, is the Bible:

Quote:
Revelations wrote:
19:12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.

19:13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
There have been whole nations, called to commit mass murder in the name of the Christian God. Wars have been waged, families mass murdered, over whether or not a Catholic priest really is the true spokesman for God; or who really deserves to be called Pope (at one time, three different people claimed the title).

So, "we're" so much better, because "their" book (written in a time of great political turmoil) calls for the "deaths" of "unbelievers?"

Quote:
However, there are many passages in the Koran and the hadiths that can be construed to demand the murder (literally "murder") of non-believers, Christians, Jews, atheists
"Many?" No I don't think so.

Quote:
Many muslims and western apologists tell us that these passages refer to specific historical situations, certain conditions, etc., etc., so that they are not actual calls to murder. Yet fatwas of death are issued even today for people like Salmaan Rushdie. And Mr. Van Gogh in the Netherlands had a note stabbed into his chest citing Islamic reasons for his murder.
And yet you conveniently ignore the fatwas calling for an end to violence (as the one I linked above); or the fatwa called by the Supreme Ruler of Iran, proscribing a ban against the use of nuclear weapons.

Quote:
We can argue whether those killers are muslims but they can quote the Koran as justification.
As the devil can quote scripture to meet HIS ends...

Quote:
No one can quote Christ or any of his disciples or the apostles to justify any killing. Christianity in fact puts one at quite a disadvantage in secular matters.
Yes, those witchhunters in Salem and Eastern Europe were at their wits' end, trying to find loopholes in the Bible that would justify their murderous schemes-for-profit.

I'm guessing that you thought that "thou shalt not suffer a witch to live," NOT as a call to slaughter pagans, huh??

Or, perhaps you'll argue that the witch-burnings were referring

Quote:
David Orange wrote:
to specific historical situations, certain conditions, etc., etc., so that they are not actual calls to murder.
Uh huh.

Quote:
Further, I'm not familiar with too many murderers or mass murderers who have even called themselves "Christians."
Christian Terrorists

Quote:
Christian terrorist organizations

Army of God
Several Christians who have targeted abortion providers have had close ties to the militant organization Army of God, including the former Presbyterian minister Paul Jennings Hill, Michael F. Griffin, and the Reverend Michael Bray. Eric Rudolph, Clayton Waagner, and James Kopp all had links to the Army of God.

National Liberation Front of Tripura
The National Liberation Front of Tripura is a Fundamentalist Christian militant group in India, demanding a separate Christian state. Allegedly funded by the Baptist Church of Tripura, it is accused of ethnic cleansing and bombings that have killed hundreds, as well as forcing gunpoint conversions. They were declared a terrorist organization under the Prevention of Terrorism Act in 2002

Lord's Resistance Army
Lord's Resistance Army (formerly known as the Uganda Peoples' Democratic Christian Army, it mixed several belief systems. It has recently downplayed its Christian roots, but still springs from a predominantly Christian support base)

Freedomites
Freedomites (also Svobodniki or Sons of Freedom, Canada, 1902-present)
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Old 08-19-2007, 05:03 PM   #122
David Orange
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Re: Christians?

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
You know, I'm not a defender of George Bush, but he's at least got a little humanity and a lot less ego in him than some of the opinionaters in our extremist elements. That was a fairly sickening comment.
Bush is a fairly sickening guy. When he was governor in Texas, over 130 people were executed. None were pardoned. None had a stay issued. He even made fun of a woman who begged him for mercy and he mocked her. He has also overseen federal executions and let us not forget Shock and Awe.

He tortured small animals as a child. He is a classic sociopath.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.esotericorange.com
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Old 08-19-2007, 05:14 PM   #123
Mike Sigman
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Re: Christians?

Quote:
David Orange wrote: View Post
Bush is a fairly sickening guy. When he was governor in Texas, over 130 people were executed. None were pardoned. None had a stay issued
Is it your idea that people shouldn't live by the laws of the land and the governors should decide what people do... not the courts? If the courts and people of Texas assign a punishment, you think their decisions should be overridden in such a way as to conform with YOUR idea of what is right? How much more self-absorbed can you get?
Quote:
He even made fun of a woman who begged him for mercy and he mocked her.
Here's a chance for you.... give us the quote of George Bush "making fun" of a woman who has personally begged him for mercy. Not an opinion; a quote. Let's see who the real unethical villain is here... you or Bush. Give us the quote.
Quote:
He has also overseen federal executions and let us not forget Shock and Awe.
Is this the time of day when you tipple or something? That makes no sense whatsoever.

But back to your first comment, which you're avoiding. You called George W. Bush a murderer. Do you stand by your statement? Even Clinton, who brought the whole 9/11 deaths things on the heads of 3,000 people can't be said to be a "murderer" for doing so.... at most he would be "criminally negligent" or "inept". Of course, I realize that feelings are the same things as facts to you fanatics, but let's try to keep the English language untainted by fuzziness, shall we? That way we can all communicate.

Regards,

Mike Sigman

He tortured small animals as a child. He is a classic sociopath.

David[/quote]
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Old 08-19-2007, 05:17 PM   #124
David Orange
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Re: the devil can quote scripture...

Quote:
Neil Mick wrote: View Post
There have been whole nations, called to commit mass murder in the name of the Christian God.
And where did the Scripture call for that?

You see, that's how easy it is to see that these were Antichristian movements. "Many will come in my name," Jesus said, specifying that they would be deceivers. Nothing about Christianity approves that.

Quote:
Neil Mick wrote: View Post
Wars have been waged, families mass murdered, over whether or not a Catholic priest really is the true spokesman for God; or who really deserves to be called Pope (at one time, three different people claimed the title).
Ditto that. There is no call for a Pope in Christian scripture. No allowance for murder.

Quote:
Neil Mick wrote: View Post
So, "we're" so much better, because "their" book (written in a time of great political turmoil) calls for the "deaths" of "unbelievers?"
You're twisting there, Neil. I only point out dispassionately that no one can murder in the name of Christianity, but passages in the Koran specifically command the follower to murder non-believers.

Quote:
Neil Mick wrote: View Post
"Many?" No I don't think so.
How many do you need, Neil? Is one too few? Is two too few?

Quote:
Neil Mick wrote: View Post
And yet you conveniently ignore the fatwas calling for an end to violence (as the one I linked above); or the fatwa called by the Supreme Ruler of Iran, proscribing a ban against the use of nuclear weapons.
I didn't ignore them. I didn't address them. I also haven't addressed nuclear power or fascia in this thread because they are not the point. The point is that Muslim scripture calls, in places, for literal murder of non-believers while no scripture in Christianity justifies it and every scripture in Christianity condemns it. People like you claim that the calls for murder in Koran either don't exist, were meant for another time or aren't believed. You ignore the many, many calls by Muslim leaders to murder various infidels.

Quote:
Neil Mick wrote: View Post
As the devil can quote scripture to meet HIS ends...
If Satan casts out Satan, he is still cast out.

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Neil Mick wrote: View Post
I'm guessing that you thought that "thou shalt not suffer a witch to live," NOT as a call to slaughter pagans, huh??
Huh. All Bush had to do was declare Iraq a nation of witches!

As I said, neither Jesus, nor his disciples nor his apostles said that. There were some encounters with witches in the New Testament, but I don't think there were any killings of witches or calls for their murder.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

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Old 08-19-2007, 05:30 PM   #125
David Orange
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Re: Christians?

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Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
Is it your idea that people shouldn't live by the laws of the land and the governors should decide what people do... not the courts?
Governors pardon the condemned quite frequently. Bush is fairly unique in never showing mercy--except to the well-placed and powerful, or members of his cabinet who lie and expose CIA agents and the like.

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Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
If the courts and people of Texas assign a punishment, you think their decisions should be overridden in such a way as to conform with YOUR idea of what is right?
I didn't question any particular case, but just that Bush is famous for never having shown mercy, even in a state where other governors at least occasionally pardoned someone. Here is an article on some of the cases--just a quote I pulled out of the middle, typical for Bush's record:

http://www.commondreams.org/views/061700-102.htm

That defense of the record ignores many notorious examples of unfairness in Texas death penalty cases. Lawyers have been under the influence of cocaine during the trial, or been drunk or asleep. One court dismissed a complaint about a lawyer who slept through a trial with the comment that courts are not "obligated to either constantly monitor trial counsel's wakefulness or endeavor to wake counsel should he fall asleep."

This past week The Chicago Tribune published a compelling report on an investigation of all 131 death cases in Governor Bush's time. It made chilling reading.

In one-third of those cases, the report showed, the lawyer who represented the death penalty defendant at trial or on appeal had been or was later disbarred or otherwise sanctioned. In 40 cases the lawyers presented no evidence at all or only one witness at the sentencing phase of the trial.

In 29 cases, the prosecution used testimony from a psychiatrist who -- based on a hypothetical question about the defendant's past -- predicted he would commit future violence. Most of those psychiatrists testified without having examined the defendant: a practice condemned professionally as unethical.

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Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
.... give us the quote of George Bush "making fun" of a woman who has personally begged him for mercy. Not an opinion; a quote. Let's see who the real unethical villain is here... you or Bush.
Have you not heard of this case? I think the woman's name was Carla Fay Tucker. She murdered someone and "converted" to Christianity in prison. Bush actually met with her--I think because his Christian supporters begged him to--but he denied clemency. Maybe she deserved it, maybe she didn't. But when asked about it later, Bush said something like, "Yeah, she was beggin' me not to kill her. (In the condemned woman's voice "Please don't kill me! Please don't kill me!" (in Bush's sneering voice Heh!" He signed the death warrant and didn't think twice about it. Usually, he never even reviewed the cases before executions.

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
But back to your first comment, which you're avoiding. You called George W. Bush a murderer. Do you stand by your statement?
Yes, I do. He tortured animals as a child and has used his positions of authority to cause the deaths of as many people as he could.

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Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
Even Clinton, who brought the whole 9/11 deaths things on the heads of 3,000 people can't be said to be a "murderer" for doing so.... at most he would be "criminally negligent" or "inept".
He wasn't negligent when he warned Bush that Al Quaeda would be his biggest problem in office. It was Bush who was negligent in ignoring that.

He is the textbook example of a sociopath.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.esotericorange.com
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