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Old 07-24-2007, 12:59 PM   #51
dalen7
 
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Re: The bad uke that I am... BUT??

Quote:
David Paul DeIuliis wrote: View Post
Wow- a darn good question. Hard to say if there is a right answer to this. Part of me thinks that if nage is executing the technique properly--then it should work right? If it doesn't -then is this stuff real?
BUT--I then also have to agree with someone who said that if uke is resisting said technique-nage (in a randori setting perhaps) could do something different. However if nage is committed to doing a specific technique--like irimi nage (one of my worst techniques) and uke is resisting in a testing situation--nage is kinda screwed. In a real world situation-nage could just punch uke in the face or try something diffrent.
Yeah, this is along the lines of how I was thinking and how we do in our dojo.

1) When Im acting as Nage (remember Im not even kyu grade) and my uke (typically a 2nd kyu) will 'resist' on purpose.
And its not to prove that he is 'bad', and the purpose is not for me to change technique...he wants to show me that how Im doing it is not right.
1a) he then corrects my movements and shows me the difference in what I did and he did.
1b) or he shows me that I did it right, but it would not work in that situation given a bigger guy - and shows me an alternative route.

Also, we are encouraged to properly execute techniqe.

1) at the past seminar, I did the motion of disarming a knife, but it wouldnt - in real life work - as there was no pain that I delivered for the uke to drop knife. My 3rd dan did the technique on me, and I felt the pain and dropped it. So thats how we practice.

1a) people tend to feel the pain, it hurts...but no bruises, etc...
1b) the above is true with the masters doing the technique and even 1kyu...but with lower belts, and even some people did get bruised (i know I did) etc. - but you know...there is a level of trust there and this is the milieu.

Personally, Im happy with the training - my initial hardships due to the language are fading quickly as I get to know the people (open up), and Im getting used to the ideas behind the technique.

From what Im understanding in these forums, most places appear to take a more gentle approach.

I dont have a problem with this at all.
I do wonder if it doesnt contribute to why people think Aikido doesnt work until you are 6th dan.

Also - I see that people say there isnt enough attacks taught, etc.
1) As you see, Uke is encouraged here to attack...you feel it, even with the jo and tanto on your throat...
2) Also we are shown what hits and kicks can be done by nage to uke during techniques, as well as defending against such strikes and kicks from Uke to Nage due to improper execution of form.

Well, all this to say - Im quite happy with 'magyar' aikido.
- not to mention the pressure points that 'sneak' into our training.
Anyone saying there not effective cause its slow...well takes practice - my 4th dan had me down with no second thought and absolutely no effort at all using Aikido and pressure point.
Peace

Dalen

Last edited by dalen7 : 07-24-2007 at 01:03 PM.
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Old 07-24-2007, 01:19 PM   #52
Ron Tisdale
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Re: The bad uke that I am... BUT??

FYI...the problem with pressure points isn't that applying them is slow necessarily. The problem is that each person is affected differently, each person needs a slightly different but fairly exact location applied, some people just don't respond to some points, and some people just don't care about points that only give pain.

These are much bigger issues than speed.

Pressure points sometimes give excellent added effect under certain specific conditions. Other times...not so much. I can pretty much guarantee you that most PPs will make a skilled fighter angry, and more likely to pound you...but they won't give the edge you are thinking of in a fight.

Best,
Ron

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Old 07-24-2007, 01:48 PM   #53
dalen7
 
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Re: The bad uke that I am... BUT??

Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote: View Post
FYI...the problem with pressure points isn't that applying them is slow necessarily. The problem is that each person is affected differently, each person needs a slightly different but fairly exact location applied, some people just don't respond to some points, and some people just don't care about points that only give pain.
Ron
Good insight indeed - for sure I know that Im not at the stage of thinking of using them...infact it would make for a good comedy.

On the street:
defender: "Wait...no, thats not it..."
attacker: "yeah, take it...and, yes...thats it! you got it."

But, at the end of the day, it is fascinating, and as you mentioned, some situations probably are more suitable for the use of effective and quick points.

peace

Dalen
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Old 07-24-2007, 07:19 PM   #54
raul rodrigo
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Re: The bad uke that I am... BUT??

Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote: View Post
Pressure points sometimes give excellent added effect under certain specific conditions. Other times...not so much. I can pretty much guarantee you that most PPs will make a skilled fighter angry, and more likely to pound you...but they won't give the edge you are thinking of in a fight.

Best,
Ron
One aikidoka i've trained a few times with relies greatly on pressure points to make his waza work. It has a couple of negative effects. One it makes many people reluctant to train with him, because the pain is gratuitous to a properly executed technique. The second is that he relies on pressure points that on some people don't actually work. When this happens between the two of us, I tap out as a quiet concession to his seniority, but in fact I dont feel all that much pain.

A person who trains this way is due for a rude surprise some day in a real fighting situation. Ron is right. Blend with the attack. find the right position, apply the technique. Pressure points, to me, are reserved for the very rare occasions when the uke resists inappropriately and needs to be reminded of what nage can do.

Should I point out to him whenever the pressure points don't work? I would if he were a friend. But since he isn't and I don't like his proclivity for hurting even white belts, I feel inclined to just leave him alone.

R
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Old 07-25-2007, 12:13 AM   #55
dalen7
 
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Re: The bad uke that I am... BUT??

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Raul Rodrigo wrote: View Post
Should I point out to him whenever the pressure points don't work? I would if he were a friend. But since he isn't and I don't like his proclivity for hurting even white belts, I feel inclined to just leave him alone.

R
Dude, I would be upset if that was the case.
When pressure points, or any painful skills are done at my dojo - its with the intent of the higher ranks sharing and teaching you what it is they know.

I understand about your reluctance to let him know it doesnt work, but its good when there is clear communication - or people will be delusional thinking their techniques work 100% - but again, in your case its not a 2 way street of sharing the info.

Mabye you can approach him about this - what does your sensai say? Does he notice whats happening?

Peace

Dalen
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Old 07-25-2007, 06:50 AM   #56
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Re: The bad uke that I am... BUT??

The only pressure points I care about are elbows to the temple,kicks to the balls, shots to the throat, and as Bas Rutten would say "The liver shot!"

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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Old 07-25-2007, 07:26 AM   #57
Ron Tisdale
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Re: The bad uke that I am... BUT??

Quote:
and as Bas Rutten would say "The liver shot!"
I can guarantee that one works. OUCH. Used to spar with a really solid kickboxer in college. I could kick him full force in the gut...he would smile and hit me in the head.

My first liver shot came from him...back then I was in shape and could take a real good shot to the body. He hit the liver, I bent over, he hit the head, I went down. Didn't get up for a while either

Now THAT'S an &^%#@$$in pressure point!

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
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Old 07-25-2007, 08:11 AM   #58
raul rodrigo
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Re: The bad uke that I am... BUT??

Quote:
Dalen Johnson wrote: View Post
Mabye you can approach him about this - what does your sensai say? Does he notice whats happening?
Dalen, he's not from my dojo. I've only trained with him a few times. I don't consider him my responsibility. He's also my senior, so the etiquette of offering a correction would be a bit tricky since we dont have a prior training relationship.

The basic point remains: the use of tsubo or pressure points cannot be made to substitute for actually being able to do the technique, without effort, without forcing.
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Old 07-25-2007, 08:59 AM   #59
Tony Wagstaffe
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Re: The bad uke that I am... BUT??

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Ahmed Altalib wrote: View Post
Hi All

I was an uke for this guy who will be testing for his 3rd Kyu in two weeks and he couldn't execute some techniques or lets say the techniques didn't manifest to his satisfaction nor to the satisfaction of the observing 5th Dan shidoin because I wasn't a good/experienced uke (which is a fact I am not ashamed of)

HOWEVER shouldn't these techniques work and put me down regardless of how good/bad the uke is?

Shouldn't the technique work if executed properly regardless of how coperative/uncoperative the opponent is because after all who is going to be submissive and cooperative in a real situation anyway!!!

and yes I do deliberately make it hard for the nage to put me down or move me because I would be cheating him/her if I back fall or fall on my knees every time they execute a technique for the sake of the technique instead of its effectiveness..

So what do you dudZ think about this?
To a point you have it right...... if the person was taking a grading for the 1st time then total resistance is counter productice.... but at the grade of 3rd kyu there should be firm attacks and gripping but not allout resistance.... it much depends on whether you are doing kata, randori or shiai and the level of the person you are uke for.... Just use common sense but don't be a complete asshole just to make somebody look ridiculous..... we have to cooperate to some extent..... are you able to execute waza successfully if your uke totally resists? I wonder?......
Tony
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Old 07-25-2007, 09:13 AM   #60
Kevin Wilbanks
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Re: The bad uke that I am... BUT??

Having seen this type of thing so many times, I'm guessing Ahmed is laboring under a common delusion. Planting your feet and tensing up your body to resist Aikido techniques only "works" because you are abusing the conventions of the training scenario.

It is very easy to rid yourself of this delusion. Find a senior with extensive experience in a striking art, give him or her your full permission to use real atemi on you. Now get back into the same position and try out your resistance on them.

I think you will find that your tense, resistant body can be struck at least twice before you can even loosen up enough to start moving. Moreover, you'll find out how much more it hurts to get hit when you are tense.

If you are stiffened up like a statue, there is no point in trying some kind of subtle Aikido throw on you. If your partner really wants to hurt you, you make a perfect punching dummy - not only are there vital points, but every tense muscle becomes an inviting pain-producing target. On the other hand, if your partner is serious about the philosophical side of Aikido, they have no need to do anything to you because standing stiffly and grabbing real hard is not really an attack.
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Old 07-25-2007, 09:29 AM   #61
jennifer paige smith
 
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Re: The bad uke that I am... BUT??

Quote:
Kevin Wilbanks wrote: View Post
Having seen this type of thing so many times, I'm guessing Ahmed is laboring under a common delusion. Planting your feet and tensing up your body to resist Aikido techniques only "works" because you are abusing the conventions of the training scenario.

It is very easy to rid yourself of this delusion. Find a senior with extensive experience in a striking art, give him or her your full permission to use real atemi on you. Now get back into the same position and try out your resistance on them.

I think you will find that your tense, resistant body can be struck at least twice before you can even loosen up enough to start moving. Moreover, you'll find out how much more it hurts to get hit when you are tense.

If you are stiffened up like a statue, there is no point in trying some kind of subtle Aikido throw on you. If your partner really wants to hurt you, you make a perfect punching dummy - not only are there vital points, but every tense muscle becomes an inviting pain-producing target. On the other hand, if your partner is serious about the philosophical side of Aikido, they have no need to do anything to you because standing stiffly and grabbing real hard is not really an attack.
I very much agree with this post.

I would add that delusion is a product of privelidge. The privelidge of having been told what the technique will be, the privelidge of relative safety and politeness of a dojo, the privelidge of knowing there isn't someone waiting behind a corner to knock your head off at the brain stem while you're stiffly defying your 'opponent'. Perhaps even the privelidge of never having to really have fought for your life, and the fantasy that comes from that.

There is no person/opponent in aikido. The 'opponent' is resistance itself and our general mission is to eliminate misunderstandings on how to use resistance and how we are prisonerst to it when we aren't aware of it's power.

Jennifer Paige Smith
Confluence Aikido Systems
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Old 07-25-2007, 10:27 AM   #62
Budd
 
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Re: The bad uke that I am... BUT??

Very well put, Jen, regarding this particular delusion. There are ways of "stopping" a technique that don't involve overt "resistance", merely just placement and connection. All that really provides, though, is a point for you to either reacquire the attack or counter, depending on the drill or sparring paradigm.

One of the biggest things I see in beginners is getting them past the notion that "stupid" resistance (as well described by Kevin and Jen) is worth anything in real combatives. It's also why I am a skeptic whenever I hear people talking about training against resistance without providing the context.

Which doesn't mean I think it isn't important to do in aikido, I just think individual teachers/schools have their own ways of - honestly or otherwise - addressing it. And that's a whole other (long) series of (multiple) threads. Just saying you train against resistance is like saying you train in martial arts, which varies from school to school (how? with whom? under what conditions?).

I echo what others have said in that good ukes give just enough "resistance" to help their partners learn - and I also think that can apply in waza, kata and randori.

Last edited by Budd : 07-25-2007 at 10:28 AM. Reason: spelling

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Old 07-25-2007, 12:13 PM   #63
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Re: The bad uke that I am... BUT??

I'm going to say I disagree with some points that have been proposed. This is my opinion and my experiences, so take them as just that.

I recently worked with a woman who is about 5' 4", give or take an inch. I'm guessing her weight around 120. Small and petite. Me, I'm 5' 7" and 195 pounds. It's a good bit of muscle.

The exercise/technique was a same side wrist grab turned into a kokyunage type throw. The end result is that uke rolls away. (EDIT: I forgot to mention that she didn't move her feet at all throughout the technique.)

First: resistance.

I offered full resistance, leaving nothing behind. I actively tried to stop the technique. At various points in the technique, I even tried to disengage.

The result? This small, petite woman tossed me like a rag doll. I couldn't stop her, I couldn't muscle her, and I definitely couldn't disengage until I rolled out of it.

As far as resistance itself, I don't believe it is the "opponent". The "opponent" is oneself. That's what budo is about. Not uke's resistance. That doesn't matter if the person doing the technique is doing it right. There should be no resistance inside oneself.

Second: atemi.

She needed no atemi to complete the technique and have it martially effective. If one is using atemi to cover bad skills or abilities, then one is not using atemi properly. Within the training parameters, she needed no atemi. Although I'm sure, had she wanted to use one, I wouldn't have been able to stop her. I have about 75 pounds and a few inches on her. No way she can move me with muscle. In fact, there were a few times when she didn't move me at all because she didn't get the technique right. She tried using muscle and it didn't work. Had she used atemi, it still wouldn't have worked. It would only have covered bad structure/skill/ability.

Third: Cooperation.

Heh. None. I worked hard to stop her at every point throughout the technique and gave her not one iota of cooperation. She found the proper structure, kuzushi, tsukuri, and kake and all without using "muscle".

Lastly,
Had I not given full resistance, had I cooperated in any way, or had I not done my best; she would have never been able to walk away with the affirmed experience that what she was doing worked. It would have been a disservice to her and her training to allow any of that to come into play. And it would have been a disservice to me because then I wouldn't have experienced it working as a fully resistant uke. And let me tell you, there's nothing disconcerting like being in the middle of a technique (we did it all slowly) going, "Oh, sh$!, stop her! Stop her! Ugh, let go of her hand. Just let go", not being able to accomplish any of that, and then being forced to roll away.

How does that relate to other dojos and their training? Honestly, I don't know. Everyone has different ways of training. I can only speak about my experiences and offer my opinions.

Mark

Last edited by MM : 07-25-2007 at 12:18 PM. Reason: added info
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Old 07-25-2007, 12:36 PM   #64
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Re: The bad uke that I am... BUT??

Quote:
Mark Murray wrote: View Post

I recently worked with a woman who is about 5' 4", give or take an inch. I'm guessing her weight around 120. Small and petite. Me, I'm 5' 7" and 195 pounds. It's a good bit of muscle.

The exercise/technique was a same side wrist grab turned into a kokyunage type throw. The end result is that uke rolls away. (EDIT: I forgot to mention that she didn't move her feet at all throughout the technique.)
Mark
Hey now...I know that woman. I call her "Squirt."
Not bad for 8 months training I'd say.

Resistence / delusion are sides of the same coin in martial arts. You don't observe both in the same place with equal measure. By degree the greater the former, the lessor the later.
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Old 07-25-2007, 12:53 PM   #65
Erik Johnstone
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Re: The bad uke that I am... BUT??

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Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Hey now...I know that woman. I call her "Squirt."
Not bad for 8 months training I'd say.

Resistence / delusion are sides of the same coin in martial arts. You don't observe both in the same place with equal measure. By degree the greater the former, the lessor the later.
I know that woman too...

yep; my experience has been the same as Mark's; she can get it done.

Erik

Respects,

Erik Johnstone
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Old 07-25-2007, 12:57 PM   #66
Budd
 
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Re: The bad uke that I am... BUT??

She sounds tough - I don't wanna mess with her . . .

This is circling back to what I argued in other thread regarding appropriate resistance versus "stupid" resistance.

Depending on the conventions of practice, some types of resistance are stupid/inappropriate. If I'm getting owned in BJJ, does that mean I cheap shot the other guy in the nose (especially if it means he then punches me in the kidney so hard that I have to sit out a few rounds *whistles*)? I'd rather not . . .

If I'm practicing aikido at a dojo that explicitly uses atemi and I'm a noob - do I gain anything by clamping hard on him and freezing/fixing my own posture - so that I'm the one that can't move? Probably, no . . .

If I have a guy tell me to try and throw him - do I kick him first? Hmmm . . . maybe if I'm sure I can run faster than him and that he's had too many gimlets . . . *considers* . . . Nah, probably gonna try to throw him AND do my best to "listen" to how's he's stopping me.



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Old 07-25-2007, 01:03 PM   #67
Kevin Wilbanks
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Re: The bad uke that I am... BUT??

I think you are trafficking in some awfully broad and probably baseless speculation, Mark.

First of all, in some cases, getting all stiff and resistant actually makes the technique easier. It depends on how you do it, and what the technique is. Often it just makes the uke into something akin to a sheet of plywood standing on its edge, which is easy to knock over if you find the right angle. So all that ending stuff about how much of a service you did by providing nage with an ultimate effectiveness test may be nonsense.

Second, when you say, categorically, that nage's use of atemi would not have worked, I think you are revealing that you don't know much about atemi and don't have much experience getting hit. If she hit one of the arm muscles you were using to resist so hard that it involuntarily convulsed you don't think it would have made you easier to throw? What about a punch in the sternum hard enough to crack it? How about if she had crushed one of your eyeballs with a finger thrust?
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Old 07-25-2007, 01:04 PM   #68
Ron Tisdale
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Re: The bad uke that I am... BUT??

Quote:
maybe if I'm sure I can run faster than him and that he's had too many gimlets . . . *considers* . . . Nah,
Wise choice, grasshopper...

B,
R

Ron Tisdale
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Old 07-25-2007, 01:06 PM   #69
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Re: The bad uke that I am... BUT??

Yeah, sometimes I can exhibit a survival instinct . . .

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Old 07-25-2007, 01:10 PM   #70
Ron Tisdale
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Re: The bad uke that I am... BUT??

Hi Kevin,

I usually find your posts very factual and reasonable...but...

Quote:
I think you are trafficking in some awfully broad and probably baseless speculation, Mark.

First of all, in some cases, getting all stiff and resistant actually makes the technique easier.
Mark didn't say a word about stiff. YOU added that. Having trained with Mark a bit, I don't find him particularly stiff or likely to be so, even when resisting.

Quote:
How about if she had crushed one of your eyeballs with a finger thrust?
Uh, hyperbole anyone? As much as I respect good atemi...I've yet to meet anyone who actually DOES crush eyeballs with a finger thrust. Someone tried that with me once in a keiko session. It hurt, I said "keep going" and I made a point not to train with them anymore. But no crushed eyeball. Not even a scratch on my cornea. About a week later some white belt trashed them for acting out of place. Probably what I should have done.

Best,
Ron (must have been in a good mood that day)

Last edited by Ron Tisdale : 07-25-2007 at 01:13 PM.

Ron Tisdale
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Old 07-25-2007, 01:15 PM   #71
Budd
 
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Re: The bad uke that I am... BUT??

I think Mark was right on with "There should be no resistance inside oneself."

For me, much easier said than done - struggle, sweat, struggle, rinse, repeat.

Oh and I still train the Three Stooges Eye Poke Reception # 1 for just those emergencies . . .

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Old 07-25-2007, 01:25 PM   #72
DH
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Re: The bad uke that I am... BUT??

Quote:
Budd Yuhasz wrote: View Post
She sounds tough - I don't wanna mess with her . . .

This is circling back to what I argued in other thread regarding appropriate resistance versus "stupid" resistance.

Depending on the conventions of practice, some types of resistance are stupid/inappropriate. If I'm getting owned in BJJ, does that mean I cheap shot the other guy in the nose (especially if it means he then punches me in the kidney so hard that I have to sit out a few rounds *whistles*)? I'd rather not . . .

If I'm practicing aikido at a dojo that explicitly uses atemi and I'm a noob - do I gain anything by clamping hard on him and freezing/fixing my own posture - so that I'm the one that can't move? Probably, no . . .

If I have a guy tell me to try and throw him - do I kick him first? Hmmm . . . maybe if I'm sure I can run faster than him and that he's had too many gimlets . . . *considers* . . . Nah, probably gonna try to throw him AND do my best to "listen" to how's he's stopping me.



FWIW
Smart ass Running? You can try my cardio out. The BJJ'ers and wrestlers do. Actually the bulk of your post echos my thoughts exactly, Budd. Appropriate resistence for agreed upon work being done. If we are training....then we are "training" not fighting. Most of the time I see everything as a sort of game with rules. I like wrestller I like BJJers and Judo guys, aikido guys etc. Sure you can deicde to go at it and break out the gloves, or not. But most of them are working their juts, and their change-ups and set ups. I mean anyone can try and bite a leg in an omaplata but it isn't really the point is it? We're training. But that said there is still ways to learn to have better body skills within...I'll say it again...within....our own choice arts to make them and more importanly us work better. And that work is? Did I say it enough...within...our chosen art. Its all about training to be a better ,...you. No matter what you choose to do.

Resitence
How not to tense and yet still feel like hard rubber is the result of not resisting. In a way one can say "The more you don't resist the harder you feel." Then of a sudden you can choose to feel light and lift off the floor as a cohesive whole unit. But again it becomes more of a choice though a connected body.

Last edited by DH : 07-25-2007 at 01:28 PM.
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Old 07-25-2007, 01:30 PM   #73
heathererandolph
Dojo: Kokikai Aikido Boston
Location: Boston
Join Date: Sep 2006
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Re: The bad uke that I am... BUT??

The only problem is, we know Aikido so therefore when being uke we know how to prevent an attack from continuing as well as how to be stable. If one is to use his Aikido abilities as well as his knowledge of the technique, it gives him an unfair advantage. Therefore, a correct attack may be an overextended uke.

Personally I do not think that any technique will always work. It depends on the attacker, the speed of the attack and where you want to throw the attacker, among other things, as well as the build of the attacker and his intent. Sometimes if your attack is more clear and precise, the nage actually will be able to do a better job.
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Old 07-25-2007, 01:47 PM   #74
Ron Tisdale
Dojo: Doshinkan dojo in Roxborough, Pa
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Re: The bad uke that I am... BUT??

Quote:
Therefore, a correct attack may be an overextended uke.
Sorry Heather, but I have real issues with that...

Best,
Ron (though it certainly opens the art to everyone)

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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Old 07-25-2007, 01:49 PM   #75
Budd
 
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Dojo: Taikyoku Budo & Kiko - NY, PA, MD
Location: Williamsville, NY
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Re: The bad uke that I am... BUT??

Dan - HA! My cardio in bjj and wrestling is actually much better than for running (cursed activity, me and my knees hates it).

I'm right on board with you in terms of being in harmony within "yourself" before you can adequately harmonize with someone else.

'Course the noobie that clamps down and fixes their own structure usually ain't doing either (offering themselves gift-wrapped with a bow, more like it), but I have no doubt that building the body skills to be a better "you" is where it's at, no matter what your "art" may be.

Best,

Taikyoku Mind & Body
http://taikyokumindandbody.com
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