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Old 07-14-2007, 06:07 PM   #1
Tijani1150
 
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The bad uke that I am... BUT??

Hi All

I was an uke for this guy who will be testing for his 3rd Kyu in two weeks and he couldn't execute some techniques or lets say the techniques didn't manifest to his satisfaction nor to the satisfaction of the observing 5th Dan shidoin because I wasn't a good/experienced uke (which is a fact I am not ashamed of)

HOWEVER shouldn't these techniques work and put me down regardless of how good/bad the uke is?

Shouldn't the technique work if executed properly regardless of how coperative/uncoperative the opponent is because after all who is going to be submissive and cooperative in a real situation anyway!!!

and yes I do deliberately make it hard for the nage to put me down or move me because I would be cheating him/her if I back fall or fall on my knees every time they execute a technique for the sake of the technique instead of its effectiveness..

So what do you dudZ think about this?
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Old 07-14-2007, 06:25 PM   #2
Nick P.
 
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Re: The bad uke that I am... BUT??

"HOWEVER shouldn't these techniques work and put me down regardless of how good/bad the uke is?"

Depends - is that the commonly taught doctrin by your sensei? If it is, then obviously yes, they should.
If it isn't, you are applying your own criteria on what is being taught by the sensei.

I think uke, no matter how they are taught, has a hard job. They have to balance giving firm, commited attacks so their partner (not opponent, not student, partner) may learn how to deal with attack, and on the other hand they have to give their partner the opportunity to learn, even if that means sometimes falling when the technic was not 100% effective.

What I have no patience for, personaly, is an uke who starts their attack with full-fledged intention of doing me harm and then switches over to "I know what is coming next so I'm going to spoil your technic". That is just dirty pool.

My $0.02

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Old 07-14-2007, 06:35 PM   #3
Tijani1150
 
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Re: The bad uke that I am... BUT??

Quote:
Nick Pittson wrote: View Post
What I have no patience for, personaly, is an uke who starts their attack with full-fledged intention of doing me harm and then switches over to "I know what is coming next so I'm going to spoil your technic". That is just dirty pool.

My $0.02
well I hate to defend me self here but if I must then it is never my intention to spoil a technique, you see there is a difference bewteen intending to spoil a technique and playing along with a technique which when execututed you hardly feel its impact on you as an uke and SPECIALY when it is done by someone preparing for his 3rd kyu I MEAN COME ONNNNN

I expect a 4th kyu to adapt his technique execution better than he did even when he saw that I wasn't moving as I should as an uke due to my inexperience instead of looking at the observing shidoin with a frustrated helpless look.

Last edited by Tijani1150 : 07-14-2007 at 06:42 PM.
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Old 07-14-2007, 07:22 PM   #4
Nick P.
 
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Re: The bad uke that I am... BUT??

I apologize, I did not mean that YOU were spoiling the technique; I was refering to in general, not you. Sorry if that was not clear in my post.

I ask again, however, as you did not adress my question; what is the indication of a succesful technique at your dojo?

Let's get specific for a moment.

On a pain scale of one to ten, one being sitting at your keyboard now and ten being the most painful technique you have ever received from anyone (any rank), what average rating would you have given this partners' techniques during your exchange with them? This I think will help the rest of us answer you with a more helpful opinion.

As for the difference in skills between a third and fourth kyu, I think you are expecting too much, as that is only what, one year?

The only difference between a junior and more senior student when they cannot execute a technic well is the senior student will just keep trying or stop; they trust the instructor/shidoin/shihan will help them IF THE TEACHER feels it is neccessary...sometimes being frustrated is part of the learning and testing process.

Trust your seniors, including the shidoin; you just concentrate on being the best uke you can be. If it is unclear as to how to accomplish that, ask your teacher.

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Old 07-14-2007, 07:29 PM   #5
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Re: The bad uke that I am... BUT??

When you know exactly what technique is about to be done, you should be able to resist it 100%. That would not be the time to test the technique.

Now in a free form or randori type training session, if you resisted or did not go along with the technique, that is perfectly ok, because the nage's job should be to blend with you and change as you change.

It's like guys in judo who stiff arm uchi komi. Nobody is learning anything. If you were stiff arming me, I would just do throws that lend themselves to that stiff arm.

In a test, he is demonstrating throws. Your job is to make him look good. If it was sparing, that would be different. He was asked to do a throw, so he can't adjust to your resistance by doing another throw.

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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Old 07-14-2007, 08:19 PM   #6
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Re: The bad uke that I am... BUT??

Quote:
Ahmed Altalib wrote: View Post
HOWEVER shouldn't these techniques work and put me down regardless of how good/bad the uke is?

Shouldn't the technique work if executed properly regardless of how coperative/uncoperative the opponent is because after all who is going to be submissive and cooperative in a real situation anyway!!!

and yes I do deliberately make it hard for the nage to put me down or move me because I would be cheating him/her if I back fall or fall on my knees every time they execute a technique for the sake of the technique instead of its effectiveness..

So what do you dudZ think about this?
There's a fine line between a learning opportunity and a waste of time when it comes to being even mildly uncooperative, and it's not always an easy task to find the happy middle-ground. It's also funny how we can unconsciously change our posture/movement from time to time which then prevents nage from doing their prescribed movement. It's hard to say what your particular situation is without seeing it firsthand, but I do know that in my own experience (limited though it is), when I've encountered some folks who obviously try to be difficult, they're not really attacking me well. They're not using complimentary muscles which makes them stiff and the only way I know to handle that is with atemi. Either that or they're simply too fast for me and don't give me a chance to get a sense of the timing. In either case I'm learning something, but sometimes uke simply isn't attacking right. That might sound funny, but when you're practicing something specific, there can be a right and wrong way to attack, regardless of whether or not the attack is potent enough to overcome nage.
Take care, dude (I'm assuming you weren't calling us "duhdz" ).

Gambarimashyo!
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Old 07-14-2007, 08:20 PM   #7
Tijani1150
 
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Re: The bad uke that I am... BUT??

Quote:
On a pain scale of one to ten, one being sitting at your keyboard now and ten being the most painful technique you have ever received from anyone (any rank), what average rating would you have given this partners' techniques during your exchange with them? This I think will help the rest of us answer you with a more helpful opinion.
I would say 5

Quote:
The only difference between a junior and more senior student when they cannot execute a technic well is the senior student will just keep trying or stop; they trust the instructor/shidoin/shihan will help them IF THE TEACHER feels it is neccessary...sometimes being frustrated is part of the learning and testing process.
actualy the shidoin observing did correct my uke position as well as kept reminding my partner that it is good experience for him to apply his technique's on a less experienced uke as I am so he experiences working with different uke's of different sizes and balancing ability the thing that concerned me is his in ability to make the technique work.

I guess this leads me to another question: What are the limits to which an uke resists or co-operates in order to help his/her partner to properly apply a technique? What is the middle ground here?
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Old 07-14-2007, 08:30 PM   #8
ElizabethCastor
 
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Re: The bad uke that I am... BUT??

Quote:
Ahmed Altalib wrote: View Post
Hi All
I was an uke for this guy who will be testing for his 3rd Kyu in two weeks and he couldn't execute some techniques or lets say the techniques didn't manifest to his satisfaction nor to the satisfaction of the observing 5th Dan shidoin because I wasn't a good/experienced uke (which is a fact I am not ashamed of)

HOWEVER shouldn't these techniques work and put me down regardless of how good/bad the uke is?

Shouldn't the technique work if executed properly regardless of how coperative/uncoperative the opponent is because after all who is going to be submissive and cooperative in a real situation anyway!!!

and yes I do deliberately make it hard for the nage to put me down or move me because I would be cheating him/her if I back fall or fall on my knees every time they execute a technique for the sake of the technique instead of its effectiveness..
Hey Ahmed!

There are a few things in your post that make for good, meaty aikido topics:
--the etiquette of perparing for tests (or helping others prepare)
--the etiquette of resistance
--the etiquette of accepting advice from senior ranks and sensei
--YOUR expectations about PARTNER'S "ability"

Your job in helping your partner for test prep should be to give "acceptable" resistance. In my mind that's around 50% maybe at your club its higher/toughter/stronger. But there's no need to go at "kill" force. Yes.. the bigger idea is to use aikido to defend yourself but its also about working together even in the face of hostility.

If you are asked to give less resistance by your partner AND a shidoin you should follow their advice, for two reasons... First, the 3rd kyu may be having troubles with footwork or some of the finer details (hips/hands/etc.) and your resistance is interfering with his specific practice needs. Second, and more importantly, you are passing up on a perfect opportunity to learn the ukemi that you admittedly need. Ukemi isn't just about getting knocked over, or even falling over. Ukemi is about keeping yourself safe and following in such a way that you can protect yourself. If you resist in a street fight you may find yourself out-muscled and you may just get stabbed, shot or otherwise "disbatched" because of your resistance. "Shouldn't the technique work if executed properly regardless of how coperative/uncoperative the opponent is..." keep in mind that it doesn't always work like that. That's why there is henka-waza and why ikkyo switches to nikkyo or sankyo because uke resists and a different technique must be applied. If you resist too hard your may find yourself taking a jiujunage breakfall.

I may be out of line asking... but what rank are you? When I read your post I got a sense that you are newer to the dojo or around 5th kyu since you admit "I wasn't a good/experienced uke (which is a fact I am not ashamed of)." I have been wrong befre and I may be dead wrong now, but don't worry about what 3rd kyu SHOULD be able to do. Focus on what you are doing or are being asked to do you don't have to intentionally make stuff harder.

Good luck and keep practicing!
E
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Old 07-14-2007, 09:10 PM   #9
Tijani1150
 
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Re: The bad uke that I am... BUT??

Quote:
Elizabeth Castor wrote: View Post
Hey Ahmed!

There are a few things in your post that make for good, meaty aikido topics:
--the etiquette of perparing for tests (or helping others prepare)
--the etiquette of resistance
--the etiquette of accepting advice from senior ranks and sensei
--YOUR expectations about PARTNER'S "ability"

Your job in helping your partner for test prep should be to give "acceptable" resistance. In my mind that's around 50% maybe at your club its higher/toughter/stronger. But there's no need to go at "kill" force. Yes.. the bigger idea is to use aikido to defend yourself but its also about working together even in the face of hostility.

If you are asked to give less resistance by your partner AND a shidoin you should follow their advice, for two reasons... First, the 3rd kyu may be having troubles with footwork or some of the finer details (hips/hands/etc.) and your resistance is interfering with his specific practice needs. Second, and more importantly, you are passing up on a perfect opportunity to learn the ukemi that you admittedly need. Ukemi isn't just about getting knocked over, or even falling over. Ukemi is about keeping yourself safe and following in such a way that you can protect yourself. If you resist in a street fight you may find yourself out-muscled and you may just get stabbed, shot or otherwise "disbatched" because of your resistance. "Shouldn't the technique work if executed properly regardless of how coperative/uncoperative the opponent is..." keep in mind that it doesn't always work like that. That's why there is henka-waza and why ikkyo switches to nikkyo or sankyo because uke resists and a different technique must be applied. If you resist too hard your may find yourself taking a jiujunage breakfall.

I may be out of line asking... but what rank are you? When I read your post I got a sense that you are newer to the dojo or around 5th kyu since you admit "I wasn't a good/experienced uke (which is a fact I am not ashamed of)." I have been wrong befre and I may be dead wrong now, but don't worry about what 3rd kyu SHOULD be able to do. Focus on what you are doing or are being asked to do you don't have to intentionally make stuff harder.

Good luck and keep practicing!
E
Thank you for a beautifully put advice Elizabeth as for my Aikido experience well I only started Aikido last September however I only consider my self started real training this past May due to the high quality training and instructors of the New Mexico Aikido Institute.
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Old 07-15-2007, 01:13 AM   #10
Dirk Hanss
 
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Re: The bad uke that I am... BUT??

Quote:
Ahmed Altalib wrote: View Post
Hi All

I was an uke for this guy who will be testing for his 3rd Kyu in two weeks and he couldn't execute some techniques or lets say the techniques didn't manifest to his satisfaction nor to the satisfaction of the observing 5th Dan shidoin because I wasn't a good/experienced uke (which is a fact I am not ashamed of)

HOWEVER shouldn't these techniques work and put me down regardless of how good/bad the uke is?

Shouldn't the technique work if executed properly regardless of how coperative/uncoperative the opponent is because after all who is going to be submissive and cooperative in a real situation anyway!!!

and yes I do deliberately make it hard for the nage to put me down or move me because I would be cheating him/her if I back fall or fall on my knees every time they execute a technique for the sake of the technique instead of its effectiveness..

So what do you dudZ think about this?
Just my 2 cts:
I do not expect someone being tested for 3rd kyu to be able to execute every technique effectively, regardless how co-operative or resistent uke is.
But I do assume a godan observer to recognise, how the reaction of candidate meets his expectations in footage, principles, and knowledge regardless how the uke acts.

Nevertheless there are exempts: if the candidate chose a dojo mate as uke and preparde the examination wiith him, he should know, how to treat him, and/but uke should not change his behaviour from prparation to testing.

Having several techniques not worked in the test ceates a good portion of psycological stress for the candidate. Some people get problems then. The examiner then could take him out and let him have a break before continuing the test with another person.

I do not know the situation, so just in general: unless specified otherwise, uke in an examination should flow with the technique - not acting, i.e. going where he should regardless what nage does, but move, when he feels, where nage wants him to move, even if it does not feel mandatory. so just a littleb more gently than in normal class. The examiner (committee) would see nevertheless, if the performance is satisfactory according to the expected level. And if uke is too resistent or too much dancing, he just will be replaced.

In any case it is the commission or tester, who decides, if the technique is good enough, not uke. So you don't have to blame yourself. But you can always ask yourself, if you would help your fellow aikidoka a little bit more next time. You cannot help them showing a better technique during the test, but you could help them to feel more comfortable and thus being free to perform better. And then they can never blame you for not passing

Best regards

Dirk
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Old 07-15-2007, 01:28 AM   #11
jyoung
 
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Re: The bad uke that I am... BUT??

just to add my little words...i would have to agree with elizabeth 100%...also with Don

what we learn as we train...these techniques...have to be practiced over and over...and one thing i have learned as i've trained is that sometimes the instructor is looking for different things in a testing...perhaps he was hoping that this person's footwork would have improved moreso than how they were applying a certain technique...i personally want to know when my technique does not produce a desired result...i WANT uke to tell me...'i dont feel it'...but not necessarily at testing time...
as others have stated...that testing is a good time for you to show off your skills as an uke...not by resisting as much as possible...but by showing a good, dedicated attack and a nice, safe fall; that in itself can take years to get good at.

good luck training and as my instructor would say...'remember to breath!!' hehe

How can you expect to move the other guy when you can't move yourself?
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Old 07-15-2007, 01:41 AM   #12
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Re: The bad uke that I am... BUT??

sorry...one other thing..

i don't claim that this is everyone's criteria for testing, but my instructor often said that he only allowed people to test when he already knew they were ready...he often told us that the purpose (in his way of thinking and teaching) of testing and demonstrations was to create a stressfull environment...according to him that was a good reason for the testing....now that might not be your instructor's philosophy...but it might be a good idea to have in your head at testing time...

How can you expect to move the other guy when you can't move yourself?
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Old 07-15-2007, 01:55 AM   #13
Amir Krause
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Re: The bad uke that I am... BUT??

Quote:
I guess this leads me to another question: What are the limits to which an uke resists or co-operates in order to help his/her partner to properly apply a technique? What is the middle ground here?
Hi Ahmed

You admit to being a "bad uke". hte point is, being a good Uke is a very difficult task, as can be seen in the following discussions (and many like them I missed):
http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10924
http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10191
http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11306
http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10291
http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=9177

However, while being a good Uke requires as much learning as being a good Tori, and, at least in my own opinion, is just as important for your martial capability.

One should not mistake and think Nage has no responsibility over the quality of his technique. This might be next to impossible in some cases, where Uke uses is pre-knowledge of the intended technique and makes significant changes to the situation, changes which are often done un-intentional and without either side noticing (if both of you are relatively beginners, and 4th Q is still a beginner) such as minor weight shifts or a half-step, etc.

Aikido techniques are trained and demonstrated (including tests) as Kata. In a kata situation, each person has a very specific role, down to his responses to pressure. A change in some part of the Kata should result in a change in other parts as well (if you pull instead of push when he pressures your grasping hand, he should do something entirely different).

At 4th Q, I think calling Sensei for help, as in correcting both sides, as Sensei sees fit, is a wise solution.

Enjoy the practice
Amir
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Old 07-15-2007, 02:08 AM   #14
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Re: The bad uke that I am... BUT??

From a post I made a while ago on another forum

"A good uke will fall for you but at the limit of your ability. In other words, they will not just fall for you but make sure you are doing certain things at an appropriate level before they give you the ukemi. They will not just block you until you've got it perfect because then you would never learn. Each time they train with you they will extend you a little bit more by moving the point and the critereia for giving you their ukemi until finally they're only giving it when the technique is real world ready. "

A test for 3rd kyu is not the time to test real world readiness. If we keep claiming Aikido takes 10 years to apply, 3rd kyu is well before that. The question I would ask is how much is this about testing your partner and how much is it about your own desire to prove you have chosen an effective martial art?
3rd kyu is too soon for what you're talking about imo.

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
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Old 07-15-2007, 06:43 AM   #15
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Re: The bad uke that I am... BUT??

Hi Ahmed,
some great answers here, I'll add my thoughts as another newer aikidoka.
There was confusion for me regarding 'resistance' and 'natural behaviour'. It's only recently I realised the difference between the two.
I had believed, as it appears you do, that if technique wasn't working then nage was applying technique incorrectly. When training though the situation is artificial to create a scenario in which the technique is the correct technique to use. That might mean that by reacting naturally and spontaneously as uke that the technique being practiced becomes the wrong technique for the situation (if you find yourself following in shihonage for example). As uke we have a responsibility ensure our actions allow nage to practice the technique.
If it was a genuine defence in the real world, nage would spontaneously and dynamically change technique to suit the 'natural' reactions of the attacker (shihonage becomes ikkyo as you follow the turn to continue the example).
So by 'reacting naturally' we are removing an opportunity for nage to practice the technique we are working on (in the example - shihonage).
'Resistance' however is different (in my opinion at least). If nage is applying the correct technique, and we have helped to create a technique friendly situation but you aren't feeling the effectiveness of technique then you should resist appropriately. By that I mean not obediantly drop to the floor in advance of the pain of nikkyo for example. In that situation you have a responsibility to nage to understand that the technique isn't being effectively applied so they can assess and improve.

I hope I was able to explain the difference as I see it well!

Jon

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Old 07-15-2007, 06:49 AM   #16
Nafis Zahir
 
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Re: The bad uke that I am... BUT??

Quote:
Ahmed Altalib wrote: View Post
Hi All

and yes I do deliberately make it hard for the nage to put me down or move me because I would be cheating him/her if I back fall or fall on my knees every time they execute a technique for the sake of the technique instead of its effectiveness..

So what do you dudZ think about this?
I did that once to someone who was taking a NiDan test, and I got blasted for it! After that, I try to just do the best job as uke I can for the nage and not try and make it difficult for them during their test. However, I will call them to account during regular classes, especially those who are in the ranks of the Yudansha.

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Old 07-15-2007, 07:20 AM   #17
dalen7
 
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Re: The bad uke that I am... BUT??

It seems that he should be able to move you...after all the uke on the street isnt going to 'co-operate' and say: "Now how was I supposed to stand?"

From what I have experienced, I naturally move as my wrist is be contorted in ways it should not.

Uke shouldn't move if its not working...cause that means that something is not being executed right.

You could go away in delusion that you know the technique, and you meet the guy on the street and find he is staring at you while you try to figure out how to properly execute sankyo.

I have only had 17 lessons, but the reason I started was because I felt the pain, and effectiveness when ikkyo, etc was applied.

Does it mean that its good for a small person against a bigger person? Well I train with a 2nd kyu who is bigger and stronger than me...some things just dont work, and I have to find an 'alternative'.
In the street it would be called pick up a brick/throw and run.

Peace

Dalen
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Old 07-15-2007, 07:35 AM   #18
justin
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Re: The bad uke that I am... BUT??

"and yes I do deliberately make it hard for the nage to put me down or move me because I would be cheating him/her if I back fall or fall on my knees every time they execute a technique for the sake of the technique instead of its effectiveness..
So what do you dudZ think about this?"

i think you should be a tad careful with that mind frame some partners might see this as an opening to turn the technique into something else you might not see coming and in turn injure yourself
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Old 07-15-2007, 08:20 AM   #19
Amir Krause
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Re: The bad uke that I am... BUT??

Quote:
...after all the uke on the street isnt going to 'co-operate' and say: "Now how was I supposed to stand?"
This "uke on the street" of yours is also not going to know which technique is coming, and one should be able to choose the right technique for the situation, rather then being limited by the Kata.
And why do you think your Uke will simply hold strongly to your hand, and resist and interfere rather then leaving it and strike you?
Aikido and all other M.A. have each defined a certain methodology for teaching. If you wish to change it, be sure you are of the scale of inventing a new M.A.

After almost 17 years of practice, I automatically adjust the techniques to the situation, and use variants. Only recently, I had my sensei calling me after I demonstrated a technique to the group (he was sick) and asking me which of the variants I showed were the beginners supposed to follow?
And I was demonstrating with a good Uke (of my own level) and we both "simply" responded in accordance to the fluctuation in the situation created by slightly varying timing and position.
So I guess you can see my point about the "uke on the street": Aiki is more about adjusting the solution to the problem then it is about the techniques (most of which may be found in any Jujutsu style). You are not on the street, you are practicing Kata.

I often work with beginners, and one of the common situations is them trying to "test the system" by trying to give me hardship. Those beginners often completely miss the situation for the technique, and create a state much better suited to something else. Knowing their need to feel "aikido works", I normally give them a taste of that, often selecting some more "interesting" variation
But the after this "first test", I will explain to my Uke that he has changed the situation, and that I would like to practice as sensei instructed, so would he mind to get back on course.
In some cases, too much force is such a change. For example, if one practices a technique that is only suited to early release from side neck hold, and due to inexperience, the technique is not practiced in a dynamic, but rather Uke grabs and then the technique is to start. If Uke were to resist with strength, the early release technique would not work, it is not suited to this situation, and a different technique would be called for.
P.S. Personally I love this testing, and definitely prefer it to those who fall to the belt (I can stand and do nothing; they fear the BB around my waist and so throw themselves at the floor anyhow, as if the belt ever did anything).

Amir
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Old 07-15-2007, 11:05 AM   #20
dalen7
 
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Re: The bad uke that I am... BUT??

Quote:
Amir Krause wrote: View Post
This "uke on the street" of yours is also not going to know which technique is coming, and one should be able to choose the right technique for the situation, rather then being limited by the Kata.
And why do you think your Uke will simply hold strongly to your hand, and resist and interfere rather then leaving it and strike you?
Aikido and all other M.A. have each defined a certain methodology for teaching. If you wish to change it, be sure you are of the scale of inventing a new M.A.
Whoa grasshopper! I see that its becoming norm for people to take things I say out of context from my intent...

I didnt say anything about changing anything...or starting my own art.
Again, my post was in response to the original poster.

If you want to know that your technique works - (and please, for the love of God, I hope this doesnt lead into a rabbit trail - from past post I can see how someone can miss the base point) - again, when someone does a move on you and the pain can be felt, you will tend to flow with that, and it wont be 'fake' (or resist it and try to break free...which will cause more damage, especially with tissues, joint manipultaion.) -

Thats it...all I wanted to say.
I put sankyo on a newbie (even newer than me) and nothing was felt, I did it differently and the pain was there like it was supposed to be, and they 'went with it' not to show off, but because they flow with whats happening. (and yes they can break out etc.)

I dunno - doubt this would clarify it any better.
But again, as to the uke on the street - that was in reference to the point that its nice to know/feel what works and doesnt. If I didnt I wouldnt be in Aikido now. - I would think its bogus by most of the comments I read and hear from BJJ, etc.

- and maybe in summary, Im looking at one part of a pic...and your looking at the grander scheme, so perhaps that is where we crossed paths in communication.

- read back through to make sure I hit the basic points to help clarify, and I saw something else.
Yes, I do realize that you can change, etc. - thats more of what was mentioned above...another piece of the puzzle. - but as the original poster pointed out and I talked about...if I cant know my sankyo works...then it doesnt matter the rest of what you can do to change.

Again, remember...I am a very beginner...its easy to forget that we have to build up to where you are at to quickly change. Me quickly changing to another technique that I cant execute well will not help me at all.

I think that is the clearest I can summarize.

Peace

Dalen

Last edited by dalen7 : 07-15-2007 at 11:14 AM.
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Old 07-15-2007, 02:11 PM   #21
jennifer paige smith
 
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Re: The bad uke that I am... BUT??

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Ahmed Altalib wrote: View Post
Hi All

I was an uke for this guy who will be testing for his 3rd Kyu in two weeks and he couldn't execute some techniques or lets say the techniques didn't manifest to his satisfaction nor to the satisfaction of the observing 5th Dan shidoin because I wasn't a good/experienced uke (which is a fact I am not ashamed of)

HOWEVER shouldn't these techniques work and put me down regardless of how good/bad the uke is?

Shouldn't the technique work if executed properly regardless of how coperative/uncoperative the opponent is because after all who is going to be submissive and cooperative in a real situation anyway!!!

and yes I do deliberately make it hard for the nage to put me down or move me because I would be cheating him/her if I back fall or fall on my knees every time they execute a technique for the sake of the technique instead of its effectiveness..

So what do you dudZ think about this?
This dude(?) has 2 questions first:
1) What is your current rank
2) Was it your sempai who made the observation that your ukemi was poor?
Now, this dude thinks if your teacher is interested in seeing how the 3rd kyu-ho is doing in his/her basic form at this point then your resistance may have been a distraction and difficult to determine anything beyond your resistance; which then makes the moment about you and your training and not your efforts to support the learning environment of another student. If your teacher is interested in seeing how well y'all do in resistance training as a measure of progress than you probably were encouraged, if you were appropriate.
But, what I hear in the post above is you making a lot of determinations about what things should be and how they should be and why they should be that. A determination the we reserve for the Sensei. In my school that attitude would be monitored closely because it is considered a lack of understanding. This is a common learning point for mid-kyu grades in ukemi( and all practice).
The job of uke is a lot like a laborer digging holes. You just do it. You don't build the whole temple. You dig the foundation.And you do it like you're going to have to do it for your whole life; without a lot of extra resistance. And you don't alter the plan sketch while you're at it.

Last edited by jennifer paige smith : 07-15-2007 at 02:23 PM.

Jennifer Paige Smith
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Old 07-15-2007, 05:24 PM   #22
Nick P.
 
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Re: The bad uke that I am... BUT??

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Jennifer Smith wrote: View Post
This dude(?) has 2 questions...
Rock-on, Dude.

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Old 07-15-2007, 09:47 PM   #23
Tijani1150
 
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Re: The bad uke that I am... BUT??

Quote:
Jennifer Smith wrote: View Post
This dude(?) has 2 questions first:
1) What is your current rank
2) Was it your sempai who made the observation that your ukemi was poor?
Now, this dude thinks if your teacher is interested in seeing how the 3rd kyu-ho is doing in his/her basic form at this point then your resistance may have been a distraction and difficult to determine anything beyond your resistance; which then makes the moment about you and your training and not your efforts to support the learning environment of another student. If your teacher is interested in seeing how well y'all do in resistance training as a measure of progress than you probably were encouraged, if you were appropriate.
But, what I hear in the post above is you making a lot of determinations about what things should be and how they should be and why they should be that. A determination the we reserve for the Sensei. In my school that attitude would be monitored closely because it is considered a lack of understanding. This is a common learning point for mid-kyu grades in ukemi( and all practice).
The job of uke is a lot like a laborer digging holes. You just do it. You don't build the whole temple. You dig the foundation.And you do it like you're going to have to do it for your whole life; without a lot of extra resistance. And you don't alter the plan sketch while you're at it.
maybe before analysing my pre determinations and attitudes you should read Dalen's words below to get my point:

Quote:
...after all the uke on the street isnt going to 'co-operate' and say: "Now how was I supposed to stand?"

From what I have experienced, I naturally move as my wrist is be contorted in ways it should not.

Uke shouldn't move if its not working...cause that means that something is not being executed right.

You could go away in delusion that you know the technique, and you meet the guy on the street and find he is staring at you while you try to figure out how to properly execute sankyo.
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Old 07-16-2007, 12:46 AM   #24
Amir Krause
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Re: The bad uke that I am... BUT??

Ahmed, Dalen

You are both making the same basic mistake over and over:
the dojo is not the street

* In the dojo you learn, in the street you fight.
* In the dojo you are obliged to a Kata - specific situation and specific technical response, down to the variation. In the street you adjust the solution to the current situation and may change techniques in mid-stride. (the point I tried to explain before)
* In the dojo Uke knows the Kata in advance, and may prepare and deflect the technique before it even started. In the street the attacker is not supposed to know you practice M.A. at all, let alone expect your next move.

For these reasons, and quite a few others, a beginner Uke in the dojo should not try to imitate the supposed attacker response in the street (unless he is told otherwise).
This is particularly true for a student preparing to a test. In the test, sensei will examine the technique quality and not you. Therefore, while preparing to the exam, one wishes to polish his techniques to improve his current level.
At such a point, I often asked people to be as soft as following as possible - reflect my actions as a mirror would. This way, I will see what I am doing. If Uke starts to enter his own agenda, the mirror will be distorted and I will have to sort out my actions from his responses, a much more difficult task leading to less efficient polishing.

I know beginners often wish to see the "street effectiveness" of Aikido at every step. It is a great passion, but a wrong way to learn, at least by Aikido methodology. If you wish to feel the "street effectiveness", find a suitable Tori - Yundasha or so, ask him before hand, and then let him play with you

Amir
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Old 07-16-2007, 01:06 AM   #25
PeterR
 
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Re: The bad uke that I am... BUT??

Funny where I practice - for shinsa only yudansha are uke. When there are not enough yudansha, lets say for a practice exam in a smaller dojo, uke should be at least two grades higher but I guess that depends on what you have to work with.

It is unheard of for shinsa to be done with lower ranked uke.

Proper uke is difficult and even more so than the tori role needs experience.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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