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Old 11-17-2001, 09:15 PM   #1
cyclone7
Location: Multimedia University, Malaysia
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Question Is Aikido techniques applicable in real world?

Hello, everybody. I am a beginner in Aikido. I have a doubt here. After 6 months I have learned aikido, I discover tat the technique tat Shinsei teach me is something "illogical".
(may be it is not called "illogical". Or should I call it "not applicable")

For example, like Katatetori Shino Nage, I dont believe tat the enemy will be so stupid to let u off his balance and wait u to turn/bend his hand to throw him down. In addition, at the time u turn as well as trying to lost his balance, he sure let off his grip on ur hand already. So, tat is no point u can counter him back by doing any technique..(of course, u can punch him directly..)

During the training, my opponent always hold my hands firmly so tat I can do the techniques very easily.. Somehow, I realise tat it is not the real fight or defence. But, if he not hold my hand firmly, I cant throw him.

My Shinsei did tell me there are 3 points I have to remember when doing the defence. 1st-- avoid the opponent attack; 2nd-- off his balance; 3rd-- doing the aikido technique to counter back.

Doing all these steps are very easy during the trainning.. but when I try to use this steps on my frens ( demo only, not real fight ), I found tat it is very hard to off his balance...

So, I wonder whether I do the wrong technique or I have some misunderstand about aikido philosophy ... I believe these are the doubts tat many aikido learners might have. We really want to know if wat we learn is applicable and not only for demo only. Aikido seniors pls do advise us and comments.

We know tat is electron in this world, but nobody ever seen it..

Althought nobody see God, but I know God is just around us...
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Old 11-17-2001, 09:46 PM   #2
Andy
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If you doubt your teacher, do everyone a favor and choose one of the following:

1) Tell him that you don't think his shihonage is at all effective and for him to prove it on you. Attack him and resitst as strong as you want. Try letting go if you can. Report back here afterwards.

2) Stop wasting your time studying with a teacher whose effectiveness and teachings you doubt.

3) Train for twenty years and then ask yourself if shihonage is not effective.

Shihonage is one of the techniques which have caused deaths in aikido training.
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Old 11-18-2001, 01:45 AM   #3
SimonW11
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Re: Is Aikido techniques applicable in real world?

Quote:
Originally posted by cyclone7
Hello, everybody. I am a beginner in Aikido. I have a doubt here. After 6 months I have learned aikido, I discover tat the technique tat Shinsei teach me is something "illogical".
(may be it is not called "illogical". Or should I call it "not applicable")

For example, like Katatetori Shino Nage, I dont believe tat the enemy will be so stupid to let u off his balance and wait u to turn/bend his hand to throw him down. In addition, at the time u turn as well as trying to lost his balance, he sure let off his grip on ur hand already. So, tat is no point u can counter him back by doing any technique..(of course, u can punch him directly..)

During the training, my opponent always hold my hands firmly so tat I can do the techniques very easily.. Somehow, I realise tat it is not the real fight or defence. But, if he not hold my hand firmly, I cant throw him.

My Shinsei did tell me there are 3 points I have to remember when doing the defence. 1st-- avoid the opponent attack; 2nd-- off his balance; 3rd-- doing the aikido technique to counter back.

Doing all these steps are very easy during the trainning.. but when I try to use this steps on my frens ( demo only, not real fight ), I found tat it is very hard to off his balance...

I remember Kanetsuka sensei now 7th Dan telling us at a seminar that Shihonage is not a technique for real fights. that there are to many things to go wrong. That a simple technique was better.

But I have also come across several people online that claim that they used Shihonage successfully in a real fight.with little aikido experiance that is less than six months.

It works but there are things that go wrong.

Now shihonage is a dangerous technique. reportedly more people die practiseing Shihonage
So it is demonstrated to beginners in the safest form and more dangerous versions are shown later.

As you become more skilled you will be shown other versions until you have a whole range that you can pick and chose from, Versions where it does not matter if uke is holding you or not.

at the moment you only have a screwdriver in your toolbox as you practise you will gain more tools. Try not to get into a fight until
you have more tools. The screwdriver works but you need more tools before you fight.

So yes it is likely the technique you were shown was not applicable. It is also likely that you did it too badly for it to work. There will be times when it is applicable. and you will learn more gain new tools and
learns new ways of useing the old tools.

Simon

Simon

Simon
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Old 11-18-2001, 02:02 AM   #4
Manuel Cortez
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Thumbs down Shihonage!!!

I must say, that Shihonage is one of the most powerfull techniques that I have learned. A lot of shomenuchi shihonage (i belive is the most common atack on the streets). I been training for about 2 years, and shihonage its one on my better learned technics to apply. i dont speak a lot of english, so if i have some mistakes in my writing, please bear with them.

Atte.

Manuel C. S.
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Old 11-18-2001, 02:11 AM   #5
Manuel Cortez
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sorry, instead of shomen uchi is yokomen uchi.
Quote:
A lot of shomenuchi shihonage
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Old 11-18-2001, 05:31 AM   #6
shihonage
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Re: Is Aikido techniques applicable in real world?

Quote:
Originally posted by cyclone7

.......
For example, like Katatetori Shino Nage, I dont believe tat the enemy will be so stupid to let u off his balance and wait u to turn/bend his hand to throw him down.
........
During the training, my opponent always hold my hands firmly so tat I can do the techniques very easily.. Somehow, I realise tat it is not the real fight or defence. But, if he not hold my hand firmly, I cant throw him.
........
Have a little faith in the art.

If anything, you can think of shihonage at this point as a very useful, if not crucial, exercise in basic principles of Aikido - extension, taking out slack, entering...

Give it another 6 months and you will be able to throw your uke even if he starts to really give you a hard time.

Aikido techniques work best when you think of the technique as "helping" the uke to finish the motion that he initiated. Instead of "fighting" the uke.
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Old 11-18-2001, 05:48 AM   #7
cyclone7
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Smile questions again...

To Andy, SimonW11, Manuel Cortez, Shihonage: Thanks for sharing ur oppinion with me. Appreciate it very much.

Well, I still have questions here. Sorry for if I have ask some siily things here, I just want to learn more.

Andy, I promise tat I will ask my shinsei about shihonage technique after my trimemster break has finished. Sorry but I have to clarify here tat I am not implying tat I doubt my shinsei's ability ( he is great), may be he has his reason for not telling us these kind of thing behind.

But, I hope tat u guys still can write something about ur Xps with the Shihonage technique here becoz I believe tat many of the aikido juniors from around the world will get benifits from it. So, can u guys tell me wat other versions tat it has (besides the Katate Tori Shiho Nage)?

So far, I believe tat wat I learn is very basic one. I admit tat there's dangerous part in Shiho Nage. In the version I learn, it may be crack the opponent's hand if U twist/bend his hand too rapidly. So, may I know how about other versions of Shino nage.

(
Sorry guys if u think I ask too much about Shiho nage. U know, I totally lose my confident with Shino nage's effectiveness when I found tat it is not applicable. Yes, may be I do the wrong way...
)

Next, I found tat my opponent have to grab my hands very firm (during doing Katate Tori) or else it will be hard for me to throw him or off his balance. May I know tat how about the situation in other class? OK, may be it is only for beginners who need to grip firm but I just hope tat u guys can convince me tat griping hand is not the whole part in aikido.

I have watched the public demo which is launched at the Bukit Katil,Malaysia, by MAA commitee. I appreciate it very much becoz I get to know more about aikido but again my questions come after the demo.

I found tat there are only a few techniques in Aikido are performed. I dont know whether it is the true or they purposely not doing other sophisticated techniques. ( ok, I admit I feel bored during the middle of the demo )

But there is one Shinsei tat make my eyes open wide. He did all the techniques in a very "violent" way. ( I m not sure it is called "violent" or not. But if campare to other Shinsei tat did the techniques during demo, it is considered "violent". If I m not mistake the Shinsei come from Cycberjaya... ).

So, my question here is, are those Shinsei who did the techniques in "soft ways" (relax way?)fake? ( Ok , not hard feeling here ok? I am not saying tat they cheat people but may be it just a demo and need less for them to perform in a real way...) And, I want to ask is aikido techniques should be perform in a "soft" or "violent" way? Or it is up to our wish...?

I think I have stop here. Hope tat Aikido senior can answer my questions here. Well, I am sorry if I type too long here.
Anyway, thanks again to all the guys tat asnwering my questiona.. :P

Thanks.

We know tat is electron in this world, but nobody ever seen it..

Althought nobody see God, but I know God is just around us...
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Old 11-18-2001, 06:12 AM   #8
Thalib
 
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It takes time...

6 months...

I just learned the proper shihonage after about 3 years. Basically I've corrected my mistakes.

Do not worry, I've been through what you've been through. I kept trying to learn the proper way.

There are steps in learning aikido, and the ones that I've experienced are as follows:

1. Form/technique based: just doing the technique as shown.

2. Physiological based: doing the technique based on the physical-biological relationship of uke-nage.

3. Principle based: understanding the why the technique is done the way it is done.

4. Mental based: believing in oneself, self control, not easily intimidated, etc.

5. Unification of mind and body: the mind controls the body, therefore it is one unit.

6. Ki based: ??? - sorry can't explain - ???

Aikido is not as easy as a kick, a punch, or a throw.

Maybe because you're still new, during practice they just let you learn the form first (basically, No. 1). But as you progress, they might get harder on you... maybe.

During practice now, I kept saying that the uke's (the attacker's) job is to check if the nage (the one being attacked) is doing the technique properly.

This does not mean uke should fight with nage. This just mean that the uke has the responsibility to tell the nage if the technique was not done properly. And the uke must not fake the fall in order to please the nage.

Aikido technique is very applicable in real life situation. The way you have learned it, will affect it's applicability. Are you learning a lie? Or are you learning the truth?

Be patient... I've only begun to learn Aikido.
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Old 11-18-2001, 07:12 AM   #9
Thalib
 
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Hard or soft...

Well... maybe violent not the right word, but hard.

Hard or soft, the truth or a lie, only you will know. That's what I mean by the uke-nage relationship, it's about honesty. After a while, you will be able to tell which is fake and which is real.

Oh... concerning shihonage, these are a few common mistakes that I've did over the years:

Prob.: Uke's hand is to heavy to move
Sol. : Keep your center, do not let your hand stretch (reach) out.

Prob.: Uke just twirl around with nage (like dancing)
Sol. : Do not let the hand reach up high, keep the hands centered in front of you. don't let the uke's hand higher than his shoulder. Lower your posture but don't bend down.

Prob.: Uke let go off nage.
Sol. : The nage must not force his way through, this causes the uke to sense danger and let go.

Prob.: Nage fall down when turning around.
Sol. : Over-bending of the body that makes the nage off centered.

Prob.: Uke is really stable.
Sol. : There was no kuzushii (off-balancing) in doing the technique. Find the uke's kuzushii point.

Prob.: After the nage has fully turned around, the uke is still stable.
Sol. : The uke was able to regain his balance. Pulling the arm down does not help. Move uke's fingers/hands/arm in a spiralling motion towards his shoulder.

I don't think I've explained it properly here, it's best if it was done visually. But the point above is one has to unify mind and body. Don't let one part of the body move independently of the other, move as one unit.

Be patient... it takes time...
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Old 11-18-2001, 07:37 AM   #10
SimonW11
Dojo: Bristol University Dojo
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Re: questions again...

Quote:
Originally posted by cyclone7
But, I hope tat u guys still can write something about ur Xps with the Shihonage technique here becoz I believe tat many of the aikido juniors from around the world will get benifits from it. So, can u guys tell me wat other versions tat it has (besides the Katate Tori Shiho Nage)?

Thanks.
There are lots of versions just of Katate Shihonage. You can do shihonage against any of the formal attacks. Shomenuchi yokumenuchi grabs to other places kicks etc.

This is true of most aikido techniques.

For most versions of katate shihonage it helps to take helps kuzushi if uke's arm is kept straight See if you can move in such a way that this is true.

Soft techniques are as effective as hard techniques, maybe more so.

By the way could you note "tat" is normally spelt "that".

Simon
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Old 11-18-2001, 03:47 PM   #11
Brian H
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Some times they "can't" let go

A truely great Aikidoka will be able to unbalance and throw uke even if he does let go, because they will go with uke's motion. I am not there yet. When I practice I think of why Uke would continue his attack and execute technique based on that "invented" condition. Example: I'm a policeman and carry a gun. If I had my gun drawn and someone seized my wrist in order to disarm me, what could I do? Well, Katatedori Shihonage is a great answer. If he lets go,I'm going get away from him and I might just be justified in shooting him. That is one hell of a reason for Uke to press his attack and focus on my hand/"gun." Next time you do practice Katatedori Shihonage imagine you have a gun in your hand and see where you "muzzle" ends up when you execute your pin. Hee Hee Hee. For you non-gun totters think child, cell phone, wallet etc.

For the truely demented: You are walking through a bar with a cold pint of beer when a team of ninjas attempt to seize your lager. Can you do Katate dori Kokyu Nage without spilling a drop? I say YES!

If you look around you will find Aikido everywhere.
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Old 11-18-2001, 09:34 PM   #12
Abasan
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Cyclone, I'm curious as to where exactly is your dojo? Is it actually in Multimedia University?

Anyway, as Andy mentioned earlier, it might be a good idea to scout around at other dojos. See how their training is conducted. If its about the same, chances are you're not doing the technique properly. And that my friend, will not come from overnight practice. But if you see a marked difference in the applicability of techniques in the different dojos, then perhaps you might want to consider changing senseis.

Btw, I have no problems whether or not uke grabs my hand strongly or loosely in order to perform a shihonage technique. (unless of course you're doing it for warm ups). As nage, i'll immediately grab uke's hand with my free hand and twist it to break his balance as I move my body. By then, uke no longer would have his hand grabbing mine. Instead I'll have both of my hands grabbing his. Furthermore, you're unlikely to throw him down if your body and center isn't close to his. (eg you're actually infront of him or behind him).

Err sorry to ask this here, but Kamal, did I meet you in Singapore AAF seminar? Can I have your email if you are that Kamal?

Thanks.

Draw strength from stillness. Learn to act without acting. And never underestimate a samurai cat.
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Old 11-18-2001, 11:07 PM   #13
Suru
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Smile manifold effectivity

Shihonage is one of my favorite techniques. While beginners (myself included) might have trouble realizing the effectiveness of techniques, at least remember how good the training is for everyday non-martial situations. If you concentrate on the concepts of entering, blending, and diffusing, you might be able to talk and finesse your way out of many potential martial situations. That's the most important thing about practicing aikido.
When aikido must be used in a martial situation, I think it could be highly effective if you know the techniques and remember the fundamentals.

Drew
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Old 11-19-2001, 12:12 AM   #14
nikonl
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Talking

To cyclone's initial question, all i have to say is... "You have not seen the light yet"


Btw, how come nowadays suddenly so many pple from malaysia?? doshu recommended aikiweb is it??
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Old 11-19-2001, 12:26 AM   #15
nikonl
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Cool

what i'm trying to say is, aikido is like a life-long learning process, you are always discovering new things and understanding more every single lesson. So, keep an open mind.
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Old 11-19-2001, 12:38 AM   #16
shihonage
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Re: manifold effectivity

Quote:
Originally posted by Suru
Shihonage is one of my favorite techniques.
Thank you, thank you very much.
(sorry )
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Old 11-19-2001, 02:52 AM   #17
Thalib
 
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To: Abasan

Quote:
Originally posted by Abasan
Err sorry to ask this here, but Kamal, did I meet you in Singapore AAF seminar? Can I have your email if you are that Kamal?

Thanks.
Unfortunately, I'm not the same Kamal.

I was thinking of going to that seminar at one point of time, but things just got too busy at home.

You probably met my sensei, Hakim, 2nd dan.
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Old 11-19-2001, 03:06 AM   #18
jk
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Re: Re: questions again...

Simon sez:

Quote:
Originally posted by SimonW11
For most versions of katate shihonage it helps to take helps kuzushi if uke's arm is kept straight See if you can move in such a way that this is true.
I'd pay attention to this...works for me so far. Y'all have a nice day now...

Regards
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Old 11-19-2001, 08:41 AM   #19
andrew
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Re: Re: Is Aikido techniques applicable in real world?

Quote:
Originally posted by SimonW11

I remember Kanetsuka sensei now 7th Dan telling us at a seminar that Shihonage is not a technique for real fights.
I read an old interview with Kissomaru where he said that it was the first technique taught to beginners in Hombu. (It's also one of two techniques discussed at length in "The spirit of aikido," Iriminage being the other.)

I think it's taught early and practiced often for the same reason that it's not a good technique to use in a fight. It's a very very complicated technique because of the number of little things it simultaneously involves- there's so much to learn there.
andrew
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Old 11-19-2001, 02:16 PM   #20
Abasan
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Quote:
You probably met my sensei, Hakim, 2nd dan
Kamal, yep you're right. Tsk. I totally forgot his name.

Quote:
Btw, how come nowadays suddenly so many pple from malaysia?? doshu recommended aikiweb is it??
Nikon, you guys still sore that he didn't come down to singapore? heh jk. we used to just read. Now we test the water a bit lah.

Draw strength from stillness. Learn to act without acting. And never underestimate a samurai cat.
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Old 11-19-2001, 10:44 PM   #21
nikonl
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Ai symbol

Abasan: He did come down to Singapore.

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Old 11-19-2001, 11:31 PM   #22
Abasan
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Nikon - He did? For the AAF seminar? I didn't see him. heard hombu didn't really want him to go cause of disturbances in indonesia. How that's related don't ask me.

Anyway, I recently noticed that in the tomiki and yoshinkan style, Shihonage is always performed after uke's balance is broken. Those two styles seem to break it by locking uke's elbows until uke is forced to stand on his/her toes. Ouch!

Draw strength from stillness. Learn to act without acting. And never underestimate a samurai cat.
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Old 11-20-2001, 07:47 AM   #23
PeterR
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by Abasan
Anyway, I recently noticed that in the tomiki and yoshinkan style, Shihonage is always performed after uke's balance is broken. Those two styles seem to break it by locking uke's elbows until uke is forced to stand on his/her toes. Ouch!
I must point out that in Tomiki the balance breaking and elbow lock are intrical to the technique - there is no before and after. However, there is that beautiful point where a failing shihonage can be switched into a dozen other techniques such as maiotoshi, ushiro-ate or just a plain shime-waza. I have seen shihonage performed in full resistance randori - its not pretty but it works.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 11-20-2001, 08:29 AM   #24
Abasan
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Point noted Peter, but one thing still makes me uncomfortable. There are ppl out there regardless of style, that performs shihonage without their center facing uke, thus they will pull uke's hand downwards and away from uke's body. Of course this seems to be a particularly devasting way to employ shihonage and will almost certainly result in uke doing a flip breakfall. And if uke is somewhat unfortunate, a dislocated shoulder as well.

However, I learned to perform shihonage with my center facing uke, and to actually pull uke's fingers downwards closer to his body. This method will seldom harm uke's shoulder and its effectiveness cannot be doubted either. The latter method is also advocated by aikikai shihans in their seminars. Does that mean, the spectacular type of shihonage is wrong?

Draw strength from stillness. Learn to act without acting. And never underestimate a samurai cat.
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Old 11-20-2001, 08:51 AM   #25
PeterR
 
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I must say because of the type of randori we do there is a very heavy emphasis on safety. Center facing uke is not that relevant but we make very sure that uke's hand is behind the neck at the end of the application - thereby relieving pressure on the elbow. The shift to nasty is actually very small and really not necessary.

Where shihonage fails is not at the end but at the beginning. Unless balance is taken before turning under the arm - it is very easy to counter the technique. Once that balance is taken - it does not matter how you finish the technique.


Quote:
Originally posted by Abasan
Point noted Peter, but one thing still makes me uncomfortable. There are ppl out there regardless of style, that performs shihonage without their center facing uke, thus they will pull uke's hand downwards and away from uke's body. Of course this seems to be a particularly devasting way to employ shihonage and will almost certainly result in uke doing a flip breakfall. And if uke is somewhat unfortunate, a dislocated shoulder as well.

However, I learned to perform shihonage with my center facing uke, and to actually pull uke's fingers downwards closer to his body. This method will seldom harm uke's shoulder and its effectiveness cannot be doubted either. The latter method is also advocated by aikikai shihans in their seminars. Does that mean, the spectacular type of shihonage is wrong?

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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