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Old 06-21-2007, 05:51 PM   #26
mikebalko
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Re: What to do with a senior student...

After 5 years you should have been taught how to attack with shomen in a manner that would not only prevent any defender from hurting you but would allow you to counter if they tried.The problem is either with the instruction you received or a learning disability on your part. The only way I can picture incorporating a foot sweep that would have that result into kokyu nage would be if the uke was following along jumping through hoops like a show dog or just standing there wide open like a statue.
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Old 06-21-2007, 06:13 PM   #27
senshincenter
 
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Re: What to do with a senior student...

Quote:
Lyle Bogin wrote: View Post
I don't train with people I don't like to train with.

For a while this limitation would bug me, but after trying to go back on my original instincts and having caused myself more trouble, I trust myself to ignore the right people.
This is a very important point. Thanks for making it Lyle.

dmv

David M. Valadez
Visit our web site for articles and videos. Senshin Center - A Place for Traditional Martial Arts in Santa Barbara.
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Old 06-21-2007, 10:09 PM   #28
ElizabethCastor
 
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Unhappy Re: What to do with a senior student...

Quote:
William Hazen wrote: View Post
Kick his butt...
There are many ways to do it on the mat or off verbally or physically...

Abuse of power must be dealt with directly...

Being "nice" about it or bowing off the mat in my experiance does not stop the behaviour and is not really Aikido...He should be confronted directly.
William...
I agree with your general sentiment here... something must be said/brought up. However, I DO NOT agree that "Abuse of power must be dealt with directly" is a form of aikido. In aikido you get OFF-LINE and THEN do something for your own protection. To verbally and/or physically "kick his butt" is not aiki. Not only that, but it is participating in conflict at reactionary level. Granted, taking a butt kicking isn't aiki either. But, getting off the mat, refusing to practice with a dangerous nage/tori until the situation is addressed IS.

Joseph,
It sounds like you have some good history
Quote:
"The sempai/kohai relationship I've developed with this senior over the years is so strong that anytime he teaches class, he will pick me over his other juniors."
It is a shame the you guys now have a different relationship... I am glad to hear that he doesn't train often. I hope that someone in the dojo (i.e. Sensei) talks to this person.

I have been at a few dojos where if you swap partners every time you still end up with some repeats. The (blessedly) few times I have found a "partner" who I felt trained too rough, I sought them out for warm-ups or musubi practice only... soft stuff not designed to knock/pound me down. I have no guilt about it. As my sensei says: "If we wanna pound away at each other we could go fight in the street and save the time and money we put into the dojo."

Above all enjoy your training!
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Old 06-21-2007, 10:46 PM   #29
Edward
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Re: What to do with a senior student...

One of my previous teachers tried the foot sweep on me and he ended up on the floor in front of the entire class. Never try foot sweeps on an ex-judoka.
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Old 06-21-2007, 11:02 PM   #30
Aikibu
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Re: What to do with a senior student...

Quote:
Elizabeth Castor wrote: View Post
William...
I agree with your general sentiment here... something must be said/brought up. However, I DO NOT agree that "Abuse of power must be dealt with directly" is a form of aikido. In aikido you get OFF-LINE and THEN do something for your own protection. To verbally and/or physically "kick his butt" is not aiki. Not only that, but it is participating in conflict at reactionary level. Granted, taking a butt kicking isn't aiki either. But, getting off the mat, refusing to practice with a dangerous nage/tori until the situation is addressed IS.
Let's just agree to disagree here. My experiance and interpretation of Irimi is vastly different and much inline with what I have been taught That is to say "The fight is over at the moment of first contact" or "Circle, Square,Triangle." You're suggesting Circle and I am suggesting Square.

Getting off the mat and not training in protest of harsh treatment is not something I have ever seen from any of the Shihan or Yudansha I have ever learned from. An abusive Senior student would be asked to take Ukemi by the Sensei... put back in his "place"... and then asked to leave and not return until he sincerely apologized to the entire Dojo. To use one position to abuse lower ranked or beginning students is one of the greatest Budo Sins.

Sincerity in ones approach to training and compassion for ones opponent cannot be compromised in Aikido otherwise (as your Sensei suggested) go find somewhere to satisfy your destructive impulses and insecurities.

Respectfully,
William Hazen

Last edited by Aikibu : 06-21-2007 at 11:10 PM.
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Old 06-22-2007, 09:27 PM   #31
Joseph Madden
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Re: What to do with a senior student...

Actually it was a hand sweep, and not a foot sweep. Maybe I'm still suffering the effects. Picture if you will a shomenuchi kokyunage with a hand sweep at the end for good measure. Now, instead of a mere sweep, picture shite lifting your feet off the ground so instead of merely being inches of the ground, your now close to a foot. And I'm not the only one that avoids him now.
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Old 06-22-2007, 09:36 PM   #32
Edward
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Re: What to do with a senior student...

Quote:
Joseph Madden wrote: View Post
Actually it was a hand sweep, and not a foot sweep. Maybe I'm still suffering the effects. Picture if you will a shomenuchi kokyunage with a hand sweep at the end for good measure. Now, instead of a mere sweep, picture shite lifting your feet off the ground so instead of merely being inches of the ground, your now close to a foot. And I'm not the only one that avoids him now.
Honestly I don't see anything wrong with your description. I know Kokyu Nage from Shomen Uchi is quite violent, and I don't know many Uke who like to take falls repeatedly from this technique but the hand sweep is very common, and this is the way we do it over here. Apart from slamming you strongly to the mats, which I believe is not such a serious issue in aikido (I do it and it's done to me all the time), I don't see what wrong did he do, of course unless your school prefers a softer and more stylized approach to aikido.
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Old 06-22-2007, 10:09 PM   #33
Mark Uttech
Dojo: Yoshin-ji Aikido of Marshall
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Re: What to do with a senior student...

One way to look at the hand sweep in shomenuchi kokyunage is that it is an 'extra' movement that involves the ego. It isn't necessary, but some beginning nages need to feel like 'they' are doing something.

In gassho,

Mark
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Old 06-23-2007, 01:07 AM   #34
tarik
 
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Re: What to do with a senior student...

Quote:
Elizabeth Castor wrote: View Post
William...
However, I DO NOT agree that "Abuse of power must be dealt with directly" is a form of aikido.
Respectfully, I have to join William in disagreeing with this statement, which seems to be a common opinion of aikido.

Aikido is about resolving conflict. You might even say that is it about resolving conflict while causing the least harm possible. Doing this directly or indirectly is a strategy, and most certainly both can be forms of aikido.

Quote:
Elizabeth Castor wrote: View Post
In aikido you get OFF-LINE and THEN do something for your own protection. To verbally and/or physically "kick his butt" is not aiki. Not only that, but it is participating in conflict at reactionary level. Granted, taking a butt kicking isn't aiki either. But, getting off the mat, refusing to practice with a dangerous nage/tori until the situation is addressed IS.
It seems to me that many people mistake conflict avoidance for conflict resolution. Getting off the line is merely one strategy and IMO, it is frequent heavily over-used in situations where a direct irimi is more appropriate and would have caused less harm.

Aiki is not necessarily nice or pretty; it does not necessarily feel nice, and it most certainly has nothing to do with getting off the line. It has everything to do with appropriately fitting to the situation at hand.

One might argue that a "butt kicking" is not aiki, but it certainly can be, when the situation is appropriate, and I've given and received direct "butt kickings" in my life that certainly led immediately to the least harm for all involved.

Regards,

Tarik

Tarik Ghbeish
Jiyūshin-ryū AikiBudō - Iwae Dojo

MASAKATSU AGATSU -- "The true victory of self-mastery."
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Old 06-23-2007, 04:23 PM   #35
Mark Uttech
Dojo: Yoshin-ji Aikido of Marshall
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Re: What to do with a senior student...

There were samurai who believed that they could quickly unsheath their sword and kill someone without saying a single word as being the greatest compassion they could bestow on someone.

In gassho,

Mark
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Old 06-24-2007, 11:36 AM   #36
Tijani1150
 
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Re: What to do with a senior student...

Quote:
Joseph Madden wrote: View Post
who has a reputation for brutality(or sadism). I recently had the misfortune of finding out that a senior that I defended as "hard" and not sadistic or cruel was, in the words of a junior, "out to get me" in one particular class and as a result I ended up extremely disappointed with this individual after taking his uke during said class(It was a shomenuchi tenchi nage at speed with a foot sweep for good measure).He nearly knocked me out as I had never taken this technique from him before in the past. Now, I've taken my share of blows in the past as we all have and I expect to take more in the future. But to have a level of trust and what I thought as friendship thrown aside by this senior made me extremely angry and suffice it to say it was possibly the worst class I've ever experienced. No words were exchanged and I did not commit the cardinal sin of leaving the class. His reputation seems to me to be now well founded. I have decided to no longer take any of this seniors classes because he can no longer be trusted. What a shame. How do you deal with this kind of student?
Well normaly this behaviour should lead to expulsion from the Dojo if not the whole federation your dojo belongs to since this is what happend to an Aikidoka I heard about, he was expeled as well as banned from training at any dojo that belongs to that certain federation,

As for dealing with this (senior) then I think it is a perfect oppurtunity to better/test my Aikido skills and learn how to deal with different attacks/attackers since this is the nearest real life experience you will get in a dojo.
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Old 06-25-2007, 05:35 AM   #37
Rupert Atkinson
 
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Re: What to do with a senior student...

Having a jerk like this inclass is a great training opportunity for youself. Make the most of it.

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Old 06-25-2007, 11:51 AM   #38
Aikibu
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Re: What to do with a senior student...

Quote:
Mark Uttech wrote: View Post
There were samurai who believed that they could quickly unsheath their sword and kill someone without saying a single word as being the greatest compassion they could bestow on someone.

In gassho,

Mark
Ahhhhhh... I sense the spirit of Mushashi...

One of the greatest books ever written about Aikido was published a few hundred years before Aikido was "born"

The Book of Five Rings. If one sincerely believes Aikido is Budo I highly recommend it. Miyamoto Mushashi and Morahei Ushiba Martial Spirits are the same being and reflect the times they both lived in.

William Hazen
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Old 06-25-2007, 11:54 AM   #39
Aikibu
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Re: What to do with a senior student...

Quote:
Tarik Ghbeish wrote: View Post
Respectfully, I have to join William in disagreeing with this statement, which seems to be a common opinion of aikido.

Aikido is about resolving conflict. You might even say that is it about resolving conflict while causing the least harm possible. Doing this directly or indirectly is a strategy, and most certainly both can be forms of aikido.

It seems to me that many people mistake conflict avoidance for conflict resolution. Getting off the line is merely one strategy and IMO, it is frequent heavily over-used in situations where a direct irimi is more appropriate and would have caused less harm.

Aiki is not necessarily nice or pretty; it does not necessarily feel nice, and it most certainly has nothing to do with getting off the line. It has everything to do with appropriately fitting to the situation at hand.

One might argue that a "butt kicking" is not aiki, but it certainly can be, when the situation is appropriate, and I've given and received direct "butt kickings" in my life that certainly led immediately to the least harm for all involved.

Regards,

Tarik
Sounds like you have been blessed with some great teachers for your life.

William Hazen
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Old 06-27-2007, 03:20 PM   #40
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Re: What to do with a senior student...

I'm of the same mind as William in this.
How does that quote go, a strong man sticks up for himself. A stronger man sticks up for others?

Clearly this student has a bullies attitude and others in the past have chosen to ignore him or failed to resolve the problem via speaking directly to him or the dojo's chain of command for lack of a better word.

Ignoring someone like this only allows x number of other students to get hurt and possibly leave class.

Any abuse of power must be delt with directly.

If you're hungry, keep moving.
If you're tired, keep moving.
If you value you're life, keep moving.

You don't own what you can't defend
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Old 06-27-2007, 04:28 PM   #41
Franco
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Re: What to do with a senior student...

Quote:
Mark Uttech wrote: View Post
There were samurai who believed that they could quickly unsheath their sword and kill someone without saying a single word as being the greatest compassion they could bestow on someone.
Mark
And that means...
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Old 06-28-2007, 08:31 AM   #42
jennifer paige smith
 
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Re: What to do with a senior student...

Quote:
Franco Cuminato wrote: View Post
And that means...
...you cut the devil out of his kharma; relieving him of the suffering of this life and helping him to complete his cycle on 'the wheel'.

just a guess.

Jennifer Paige Smith
Confluence Aikido Systems
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Old 06-28-2007, 10:32 AM   #43
David Yap
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Re: What to do with a senior student...

Quote:
Mark Uttech wrote: View Post
Believe it or not, we learn to deal with things as we go and continue to train. The art of aikido does transform individuals and circumstances; how is does this is new every time.

In gassho,

Mark
Absolutely true. I am giving up on this area - transforming people. I am now mindful of who I train with. Just have a new dojo mate. He honestly said that he doesn't give two-hoot about the philosophy of aikido and he truly believes that aikido gives him best for self-defense; not that he has done any other MA. This guy is about 200 lbs compared to my small frame 125 lbs - nearly slam me onto the dojo mirrors if not for my quite sense of his force and backing up before the onslaught of his sokumen iriminage.

He is a shodan and has been training aikido for 9 years. Do I blame him for his action? No, I just blame his current instructor (from other dojo) for bringing him this far.

David Y
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Old 06-28-2007, 02:14 PM   #44
Marc Abrams
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Re: What to do with a senior student...

This person presents others with an opportunity to explore the concept of "Aiki " -> Harmonize. We add nothing and we take nothing away. How does our ego get involved, or not involved? Can we remain centered?

One of my sempai is a big, strong man who likes to revel in not only his strength, but his ability to use it. When he was going through some personally tough times, people got hurt more than usual (myself included). I approached working with him as a test of learning to remain centered and find out how to use "aiki." I would try my best to return to him that which was given to me. It also taught me how to protect myself better with the hard application of techniques by becoming softer in response to his technique. This softening during his execution of technique made it harder for him to be able to access and express his underlying anger through his techniques. There were times when I would not work with him, when he was clearly more aggressive than usual. This would happen with an increasing large number of students.

He learned from this "feedback loop." There are students that he does seek to play rough and tumble with. This will be reflected back to him in how sensei applies a technique to him when he is the uke for the demonstration of the next technique to practice. With me, we practice in a much more honest manner. That experience has made me better at Aikido and it also gave him the message that I can return to him that level of energy in a technique in a manner that makes him experience a level of pain that he applies when working with me. By softening to his technique, he automatically softens in his execution of the technique. It prevents him from rev'ing up his aggressiveness. The softening allows me to perceive openings to land safely, create distance from him, and to apply reverse techniques (which I would not do with him because of his ego).

Marc Abrams
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