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Old 06-21-2007, 05:20 AM   #76
philippe willaume
 
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Re: Aiki and cross training

hello don
Quote:
Don Magee wrote: View Post
How do you know what a boxer is like if you don't train in boxing? How do you know what ground fighting is like if you don't train some bjj/judo/wrestling/etc?
There is no replacement for personal experience.
.
hence my
But I think cross training is fine as far as being exposed to different thing and different tactics and develops our own to counter/take advantages of that.
So there is indeed a need to cross train.

Quote:
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However, I do not buy that you need to train as much as the other guy to fight him in his range. Look at the UFC, we see BJJ black belts getting beat by guys with only moderate wrestling skills. They just focused all their wrestling training on stuffing the bjj guy, getting on top, and beating his skull in. Chuck liddel is not know for his ground game. He is known for his striking game, but he has to spend time grappling to learn how to stuff those takedowns and stay where he wants to be.
Exactly my point, you need to know and understand what is comming and develop a strategy but you do not need to be as good as your opponenet is in it.

One Ringeck to bring them all and in darkness bind them,
In the Land of Windsor where phlip phlop live.
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Old 06-21-2007, 06:13 AM   #77
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Re: Aiki and cross training

Quote:
Don Magee wrote: View Post
My point is that you can't train to take a grappler out of his element if you don't understand how he works. You can't train to deal with a boxer if you don't train boxing. Without personal experience, you are just guessing. Far too often I see judo instructors say "Now when the bjj guy does this", or an TKD instructor saying "A boxer is going to come at you like this" and they are 100% wrong. I know, because I do bjj and I've boxed.
Don, greg.
I am not sure we are saying something totally different.
What I thing Greg is saying is that you do not need to know boxing but I think he agree that you need to train/spar against someone who does boxing.

I agree with Don on assumption but there is good chance that in you dojo you have people that do something else. (For example we have and had a few karate guys a bjj wing Chung and Tkd))

One Ringeck to bring them all and in darkness bind them,
In the Land of Windsor where phlip phlop live.
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Old 06-21-2007, 08:38 AM   #78
Paul Sanderson-Cimino
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Re: Aiki and cross training

I think it's probably true that you need experience with a style to effectively counter it. And hopefully, by learning to deal with a few of the best styles, you'll be pretty effective against the majority of the other stuff too (because the best styles contain most of the high-percentage moves, and you don't need to be too afraid of low-percentage moves.) For a while, I'd thought along the lines of, "No! I can't learn their style before I practice with them...that'd be cheating!" It's only now occurring to me how absurd that is.

I have to say, though...cross-training is the suck sometimes, on an emotional level. I keep trying not to reach the conclusion that I wasted a good part of 4 years of my life learning aikido.
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Old 06-21-2007, 10:02 AM   #79
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Re: Aiki and cross training

I think that the key benefits from any kind of cross-training come from having a solid base in "something" (grappling, striking, weapons, etc.). It then helps to understand that you're stepping outside of your box and that the intent is to learn something (being nice and humble never hurts, imo).

In addition, it greatly helps if the people you're working out with (either in informal "sparring-type" settings or more formally at other gyms/schools) are trustworthy fellows that want to help you learn as well.

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Old 06-21-2007, 10:09 AM   #80
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Re: Aiki and cross training

Quote:
Budd Yuhasz wrote: View Post
I think that the key benefits from any kind of cross-training come from having a solid base in "something" (grappling, striking, weapons, etc.). It then helps to understand that you're stepping outside of your box and that the intent is to learn something (being nice and humble never hurts, imo).
Part of the trick about "cross-training in aikido" is that I'm not entirely clear on what aikido's "box" is. I think I have an idea for aikido's ideal range -- a little bit inside striking range, a little bit outside judo range -- but that's about it.

One of my big martial arts questions that I'm desperately eager to figure out is: "What the heck is aikido FOR?" I've heard people start arguing that it's an armed system about weapons retention...but A) Why don't they teach it explicitly that way, with training weapons in hand and B) I'm pretty sure that there are better styles of weapon usage and retention out there. I've wondered if the answer is that "It's from weapon arts, but adapted to work empty-handed" line ... but I'm still skeptical. Every other martial arts authority says "standing submissions do not work".

Last edited by Paul Sanderson-Cimino : 06-21-2007 at 10:11 AM.
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Old 06-21-2007, 11:27 AM   #81
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Re: Aiki and cross training

Quote:
Paul Sanderson-Cimino wrote: View Post
Part of the trick about "cross-training in aikido" is that I'm not entirely clear on what aikido's "box" is. I think I have an idea for aikido's ideal range -- a little bit inside striking range, a little bit outside judo range -- but that's about it.

One of my big martial arts questions that I'm desperately eager to figure out is: "What the heck is aikido FOR?" I've heard people start arguing that it's an armed system about weapons retention...but A) Why don't they teach it explicitly that way, with training weapons in hand and B) I'm pretty sure that there are better styles of weapon usage and retention out there. I've wondered if the answer is that "It's from weapon arts, but adapted to work empty-handed" line ... but I'm still skeptical. Every other martial arts authority says "standing submissions do not work".
Kind of a confusing post to me so my apologies in advance...Aikido is FOR you...It teaches conflict resolution through the application of physical technique and the use of Aikido Principles (which have been discussed a Zillion Times on Aikiweb... In Books... over Tea Blah Blah Blah)

There is Aiki in other Martial Arts and it has other powerful uses but in Aikido we use to resolve conflict and restore harmony.

"Every other authority says standing submissions will not work.' Well I am sure my Submission/MMA Cross Training partners will be happy to hear that. LOL They were starting to wonder why techniques like Kimi-Nage (Spelling) and other "standing" Aiki-Armbars hurt so much. Those must have come out of Shoji Nishio's Judo Experiance. LOL

Respectfully,

William Hazen
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Old 06-21-2007, 11:43 AM   #82
Paul Sanderson-Cimino
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Re: Aiki and cross training

Ah, yes, I suppose that was a confusing post. To provide a little context...I was doing a little BJJ with a guy at my local grappling club, who's mostly a wrestler. Afterwards, he asked if I had done anything before, besides my limited BJJ experience. I mentioned aikido.

He asked, "Aikido ... is that ... takedowns?"

And I was honestly not entirely sure how to respond. (I went with "Yeah, sorta.") I'm not sure if aikido is really about unarmed grappling takedowns; if so, it sure has some quirky ideas about how to do it. (Quirky ideas that might have some merit, of course.)

P.S.: Yeah...actually, I've ended up slipping into a few hiji-shime/waki-gatame armbars during BJJ rolling (from kneeling) myself. I think I might eventually be able to finish it then and there, if I remember to, say, twist back inwards after the initial turn out to sink it. As is, they at least bring the person down and give me an arm. Hooray for elbow locks? Although I'm not yet sure if those were flukes/the person going easy on me or if they're actually repeatable, solid techniques.

Last edited by Paul Sanderson-Cimino : 06-21-2007 at 11:47 AM.
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Old 06-21-2007, 12:08 PM   #83
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Re: Aiki and cross training

Put another way ... is it grappling-only? Is it striking? Is it weapons? I dunno. It'd be tempting to say "all of the above", but I don't think that's accurate.
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Old 06-21-2007, 12:19 PM   #84
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Re: Aiki and cross training

I think with the different types of aikido being practiced today, I could see an argument for focusing on any of the things you mentioned (though I really like what William Hazen said), but would depend on the school and how the instructor(s) transmitted the art.

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Old 06-21-2007, 01:16 PM   #85
philippe willaume
 
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Re: Aiki and cross training

Quote:
Paul Sanderson-Cimino wrote: View Post
Part of the trick about "cross-training in aikido" is that I'm not entirely clear on what aikido's "box" is. I think I have an idea for aikido's ideal range -- a little bit inside striking range, a little bit outside judo range -- but that's about it.

One of my big martial arts questions that I'm desperately eager to figure out is: "What the heck is aikido FOR?" I've heard people start arguing that it's an armed system about weapons retention...but A) Why don't they teach it explicitly that way, with training weapons in hand and B) I'm pretty sure that there are better styles of weapon usage and retention out there. I've wondered if the answer is that "It's from weapon arts, but adapted to work empty-handed" line ... but I'm still skeptical. Every other martial arts authority says "standing submissions do not work".
hello, paul
It really depends what aikido you practice, by that I mean what is your reference point. (And not if it is fluffy or well hard). And how easy it is to transpose to sparing/booting

For every technique we do, there is a not so nasty and there is a right mean version, to see aikido martial side you need to have seen and practised the nasty version.
For me, without that you can not see the link of the technique in relation of time and distance. Ie you are missing the martial aspect.

Any technique has a "range", it you take DLT/SLT if you do it too far or against an opponent in balance and frankly committed to something, it will probably fail.
Medieval wrestling manuals advocates using Gokio and Nikkio from a collar garb (with and without a dagger attack from the opponent).
But trying to do nikkio/or gokkio moving back with tenchin when some one has punched and is still in balance is very difficult, I can be done but odds are not in our favour.
Phil

One Ringeck to bring them all and in darkness bind them,
In the Land of Windsor where phlip phlop live.
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Old 06-21-2007, 01:29 PM   #86
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Re: Aiki and cross training

For me aikido is a study of body movement from outside striking range to inside striking range and possibly from outside striking range to clinch. Once I'm in the clinch I prefer judo, I don't like grappling when in the striking range. But neither bjj, judo, or mauy thai teach me to deal with that weird area of moving from outside the striking to the clinch.

Basically for me it's a study of body movement with some fun locks stuck in for good measure.

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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Old 06-21-2007, 03:29 PM   #87
Paul Sanderson-Cimino
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Re: Aiki and cross training

Quote:
Don Magee wrote: View Post
Once I'm in the clinch I prefer judo, I don't like grappling when in the striking range. But neither bjj, judo, or mauy thai teach me to deal with that weird area of moving from outside the striking to the clinch.
Interesting. While I'd assume Muay Thai covers striking --> clinch, I guess the "outside striking --> clinch" is a peculiar leap? That's the sort of thing I'm trying to figure out about aikido ... trying to get at its purposes and rationales in the martial sense. It seems very sophisticated and well-developed, but it doesn't see much use in competition -- I find that combination sort of odd.

Quote:
Don Magee wrote: View Post
Basically for me it's a study of body movement with some fun locks stuck in for good measure.
I have a hunch that might be the winning answer -- "aikido as meta-art". But sometimes it at least SEEMS like it might be genuine art in its own right...

As always, I know the answer is train-train-train rather than read-read-read ... hence the topic of aikido and cross-training. I think said cross-training does at least help fit aikido into the context of, well, martial arts.
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Old 06-21-2007, 03:30 PM   #88
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Re: Aiki and cross training

Quote:
Paul Sanderson-Cimino wrote: View Post
Put another way ... is it grappling-only? Is it striking? Is it weapons? I dunno. It'd be tempting to say "all of the above", but I don't think that's accurate.
"The application of physical technique" would apply to "all of the above." Pick your poison aka "style" when it comes to the " technical application" However, as I also mentioned it is Aikido's principles which make it unique (Though most all of the Martial Arts have a set of principles). At some point most Martial Arts ( aka Budo) go beyond teaching you just technique.

Sadly this is where most folks get lost. Most of my MMA/Submission partners cannot fathom why anyone would want to learn the "Art of Peace", and they do not understand how These Principles can co-exist/thrive with the symbiotic Martial Application of technique.

As the Carpenter might interject "How does one learn to beat thier swords in plowshares anyway?"

Why Aikido of course.

William Hazen
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Old 06-21-2007, 03:48 PM   #89
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Re: Aiki and cross training

Quote:
Paul Sanderson-Cimino wrote: View Post
Let's not mistake joints only rotating certain ways for "all systems having the same technique". Yes, aikido hyperextends the elbow in certain techniques, and so does BJJ...but are you going to claim that this:
http://www.bicesteraikido.org/images.../hijishime.gif

and this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:A...ame_armbar.jpg

are somehow the same technique? .....
I claim that the arm position is the same ("branch out" in Filipino terminology); how you get there is differently, but the lock is the same regardless of whether you are staning, lying down, using just your arms, just your legs, or some combination thereof.

There are only three armlock positions; the Filipinos identify them as branch out (see above) brach down (ikkyo is an elongated branch down and nikkyo, sankyo, and yonkyo just ramp it up) and branch up (kotegaeshi, figure four, and shiho nage all evolve from this). That's it. If you get one of thos positions, you have a lock. Period.

Quote:
Is omoplata really a nikkajo osae? (Answer: No, except at a purely anatomical level.)
I don't know what omoplata is; post and image and I'll tell you. (But if they're both branch down, then they are.)

Quote:
Ude-garami (like shihonage, but with a figure four hold) might effect the same joint-turning as is used in an "Americana"...but the way they're deployed is very different. And that's really where the "technique" comes in, in my opinion.
First off, when I say figure four, I meant figure four. I have seen that twice in Aikido since I returned to it. Not something else.

Second, my point is just that there are only so many lock positions and the only difference is how you deploy them. Are we agreeing on that or not?
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Old 06-21-2007, 03:50 PM   #90
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Re: Aiki and cross training

Quote:
Michael Fooks wrote: View Post
bwahahahahahahaaaa....

This is not the case. Absolutely not.
BJJ, Judo, and Aikido all come out of Japanese jujitsu, albiet different styles. And I've seen more things in Aikido than even in the Doshu's Best Aikido books.

Aikidoists may not roll around on the ground, but there's a lot there. You just have to know what to look for.
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Old 06-21-2007, 04:08 PM   #91
Paul Sanderson-Cimino
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Re: Aiki and cross training

Quote:
Michael Gallagher wrote: View Post
the lock is the same regardless of whether you are staning, lying down, using just your arms, just your legs, or some combination thereof.

There are only three armlock positions [...]

my point is just that there are only so many lock positions and the only difference is how you deploy them. Are we agreeing on that or not?
Yes, using those definitions, I will agree that there are only a very few techniques shared by all arts.

However, another useful question (using a different definition of "the same technique") concerns both the lock itself and the means by which it is deployed. I notice that you group several aikido techniques under the same "branch" category; using the first definition, they are the same, but using the "deployment" definition, they are quite different.

One word can be defined in many ways to enable different discussions to take place.
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Old 06-21-2007, 04:29 PM   #92
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Re: Aiki and cross training

Quote:
Paul Sanderson-Cimino wrote: View Post
However, another useful question (using a different definition of "the same technique") concerns both the lock itself and the means by which it is deployed. I notice that you group several aikido techniques under the same "branch" category; using the first definition, they are the same, but using the "deployment" definition, they are quite different.
If you get hung up on the deployment, yes, they are different. My point is once you understand the locking positions, the deployment is secondary. And even the, there are concepts and principles behind the deloyment, too.

So the point is not to look at the techniques as totally unique but at the ideas behind them.
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Old 06-21-2007, 06:56 PM   #93
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Re: Aiki and cross training

Quote:
Paul Sanderson-Cimino wrote: View Post
Interesting. While I'd assume Muay Thai covers striking --> clinch, I guess the "outside striking --> clinch" is a peculiar leap? That's the sort of thing I'm trying to figure out about aikido ... trying to get at its purposes and rationales in the martial sense. It seems very sophisticated and well-developed, but it doesn't see much use in competition -- I find that combination sort of odd.

I have a hunch that might be the winning answer -- "aikido as meta-art". But sometimes it at least SEEMS like it might be genuine art in its own right...

As always, I know the answer is train-train-train rather than read-read-read ... hence the topic of aikido and cross-training. I think said cross-training does at least help fit aikido into the context of, well, martial arts.
What I ment by the clinch is that its a very effective way of moving around to get to the clinch. Very complimentary to everything else I've learned in that regard. It's not that MT doesn't have techniques for this, its just that personally I find some of the body movement principles better for getting to the clinch. Of course I'm usually looking to throw more then knee from the clinch.

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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Old 06-21-2007, 07:08 PM   #94
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Re: Aiki and cross training

Quote:
Don Magee wrote: View Post
How do you know what a boxer is like if you don't train in boxing? How do you know what ground fighting is like if you don't train some bjj/judo/wrestling/etc?

There is no replacement for personal experience.

However, I do not buy that you need to train as much as the other guy to fight him in his range. Look at the UFC, we see BJJ black belts getting beat by guys with only moderate wrestling skills. They just focused all their wrestling training on stuffing the bjj guy, getting on top, and beating his skull in. Chuck liddel is not know for his ground game. He is known for his striking game, but he has to spend time grappling to learn how to stuff those takedowns and stay where he wants to be.
Sure theres no replacement for personal experience.

But I do buy into the you train more than the other guy next to you in whatever it is you do. That means more time, more intellect, more efficiency in training, everything.
I dont train in BJJ or grappling, actually I do it only about twice a month. But the training I do on my own, augments and changes my body mechanics enough that generally the grapplers that I roll with are like "WTF man...you changed again... whered you come up with a move like that?" (as I get out of whatever new fad technique of the month is)
Movement and development of the core is everything.
Everything else is just filler
If training the core isnt enough...then maybe the core/foundation isnt being trained properly.

M2C
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Old 06-21-2007, 07:29 PM   #95
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Re: Aiki and cross training

Quote:
Don Magee wrote: View Post
What I ment by the clinch is that its a very effective way of moving around to get to the clinch. Very complimentary to everything else I've learned in that regard. It's not that MT doesn't have techniques for this, its just that personally I find some of the body movement principles better for getting to the clinch. Of course I'm usually looking to throw more then knee from the clinch.
Ah, I see. That's interesting. As always, I appreciate your sharing of your aikido cross-training experience.

Quote:
Michael Gallagher wrote: View Post
If you get hung up on the deployment, yes, they are different. My point is once you understand the locking positions, the deployment is secondary. And even the, there are concepts and principles behind the deloyment, too.
I think there's some truth to that. I certainly find that, as I learn locks more deeply, I start being able to imagine them more readily from different spontaneous situations. It's actually kind of funny how myopic I can be when I first learn something ... often, at first I can only envision it happening from one specific technique, and can't understand it outside the context of that one technique. Looking back, it seems utterly silly.

On a humorous tangent, I'm reminded of something I heard once...someone was going on about how Saito-sensei would say all techniques were "the same" at heart. And he recalled (jestingly) thinking, "You jerk! Of COURSE it's all the same to YOU! You spent 30 years in O-sensei's backyard!"

Last edited by Paul Sanderson-Cimino : 06-21-2007 at 07:34 PM.
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Old 06-21-2007, 07:50 PM   #96
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Re: Aiki and cross training

Quote:
Michael Gallagher wrote: View Post
I claim that the arm position is the same ("branch out" in Filipino terminology); how you get there is differently,
and this is the difference. How you get there is everything.
Quote:
My point is once you understand the locking positions, the deployment is secondary.
I would *strongly* argue for the converse. Once you can control position, the finish is secondary and almost trivial.

Seriously - you wouldn't beleive the amount of people I have seen come through BJJ from TMA saying "we've got all of this in our syllabus" who then recant after a couple of months training once they realise that yeah, they had the locks, but no way to actually put the things on.

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
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Old 06-21-2007, 07:56 PM   #97
Paul Sanderson-Cimino
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Re: Aiki and cross training

Like I said, I think it's true that it's important to be able to see a control from all sorts of situations and angles.

But yeah. I caught myself thinking, "A kimura is just yonkajo!" and then realizing how dumb that was. I mean, it's good to understand they're the same anatomical manipulation, and maybe sometimes they even use the same principles...but honestly, sometimes a common position is more important than a common joint manipulation.
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Old 06-21-2007, 08:20 PM   #98
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Re: Aiki and cross training

Position before submission...the mantra of bjj.

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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Old 06-21-2007, 08:38 PM   #99
Paul Sanderson-Cimino
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Re: Aiki and cross training

And you know ... I always felt like that was the mantra of aikido, too.
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Old 06-21-2007, 08:48 PM   #100
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Re: Aiki and cross training

Paul is right; if you get the right position, the technique itself is almost an afterthought.
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