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Old 06-14-2007, 09:51 PM   #26
Roman Kremianski
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Re: Aiki and cross training

Agreed. Why would O-sensei be against the very thing he did his own entire life? (Pre-Aikido)
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Old 06-14-2007, 10:48 PM   #27
Chris Li
 
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Re: Aiki and cross training

Quote:
John Matsushima wrote: View Post
Regarding Ueshiba Sensei and his uchi-deshi and cross-training, did they go out and start other arts to make their Aikido better? I think they learned other arts first, and then came to Aikido. I know of some great teachers like Kenji Shimizu who was a 4th dan in Judo before he came to Aikido, and Shoji Nishio who had dans in Karate and Iaido. But these guys, like many others had studied other arts before coming to Aikido, and didn't use these arts for cross training.
As someone else mentioned, they certainly did - he even required his son Kisshomaru to do so.

Quote:
John Matsushima wrote: View Post
By the way, Mr. Li, are you telling me that if I go out and cross-train in a third language it will help my Japanese? Would Spanish help? Andoleshite yo! Hikokimashoooooo!!! Adiosayonnara!!!!!
There are plenty of studies that show that foreign languages become increasingly easier with from the third language up, check it out.

Best,

Chris

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Old 06-15-2007, 07:56 AM   #28
John Matsushima
 
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Re: Aiki and cross training

Well, I wonder why Chiba and the other uchideshi gave Dobson a hard time for practicing another art? hmmmmmmmm Why do you think they did this? I don't know what Ueshiba meant when he said "go do what you want", but you don't either. How do you know Raul, that Ueshiba didn't consider it a slight or insult? It is hard to tell, I think especially of Japanese, who don't say exactly what they are thinking.

If Ueshiba thought it was ok to put fish heads in his wheaties, it doesn't mean I'm ok with it.

I think the definition of cross training is getting blurred here. Whatever Ueshiba or anyone else did "pre-aikido" doesn't make it cross-training. According to Wikipedia, cross training " It takes advantage of the particular effectiveness of each training method, while at the same time attempting to neglect the shortcomings of that method by combining it with other methods that address its weaknesses.

So what are the shortcomings in Aikido that one can improve by cross-training?

And again, I'm sure that once a person learns a second language, learning more becomes easier, but do you think it means at the same time???

-John Matsushima

My blog on Japanese culture
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Old 06-15-2007, 08:31 AM   #29
Drew Mailman
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Re: Aiki and cross training

Quote:
Terry Dobson said: "The uchi-deshi at Honbu, particularly Chiba, started giving me a raft of shit that I was being disloyal to O-sensei by studying with Wang [Shu Jin, Chinese martial arts teacher], and I asked O-sensei, and he said, 'sure, do what you want,'"

So if Morihei had no problem, why should you?
The problem that the uchi-deshi had with what he was doing may have been that he was learning a Chinese art from a Chinese teacher. O'Sensei probably did not have the same prejudices that they did. Hell, my Aikido teacher suspects that Ueshiba may have learned a little bit from the Chinese himself while he was in China.

This reminds me of reading Kitchen Confidential by Anthony Bourdain (he's on the show No Reservations on the Travel Channel). While he was studying at the Culinary Institute of America (CIA), there was a Chinese teacher who taught oriental cooking. He taught the students all about cooking Chinese food, and spend an entire class period talking about how horrible the Japanese are, and how disgusting their food is.

But that was just a sign of the times... Luckily, Asian martial arts are no longer much of a "new frontier" to the Western world, so we don't have to deal with many of the prejudices that some teachers may have experienced while learning.

But yeah, I'm going off topic.. Sorry. History is interesting stuff.
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Old 06-15-2007, 08:54 AM   #30
jxa127
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Re: Aiki and cross training

Quote:
John Matsushima wrote: View Post
I think the definition of cross training is getting blurred here. Whatever Ueshiba or anyone else did "pre-aikido" doesn't make it cross-training. According to Wikipedia, cross training " It takes advantage of the particular effectiveness of each training method, while at the same time attempting to neglect the shortcomings of that method by combining it with other methods that address its weaknesses.
I'm not sure Wikipedia is a real authority on anything, but I like the definition above. It may help to make a distinction between studying arts that complement aikido and studying an art specifically to address perceived shortcomings in aikido.

For example, my rifle and handgun shooting have improved as a result of my aikido training, but I can't really say that the firearms practice has improved my aikido training.

Quote:
So what are the shortcomings in Aikido that one can improve by cross-training?
That depends on whether or not we can even agree on what the standard components of aikido are. I'm sure that the moment I suggest that aikido has a weakness in teaching how to punch, somebody is going to post saying that in his or her dojo, the instructor teaches very effective punches.

In my dojo, we spend very, very little time working on any sort of formal ground techniques like judo has.

For my part, I'd like to learn more about judo and explore the similarities and differences of that art compared to aikido.

Ellis Amdur has written about watching Don Draeger (I think) doing aikido. What Ellis noticed when he saw footage of Donn Draeger doing aikido, is that Draeger always had three points of contact with uke -- a concept taken from Judo. That's pretty cool.

Regards,

-Drew

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-Drew Ames
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Old 06-15-2007, 08:55 AM   #31
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Re: Aiki and cross training

Quote:
John Matsushima wrote: View Post

So what are the shortcomings in Aikido that one can improve by cross-training?
The method of training in aikido is not designed to quickly build the ability to apply techniques on a full resistant attacker. Also many aikido schools method of practice lacks in the development of good striking skills (atemi). Yet another lacking area is the development of ground grappling skills. I can go on and on about many things that could be developed quicker with training outside of aikido. I can do the same with most any art. No art is 'complete'.

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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Old 06-15-2007, 09:15 AM   #32
Chris Li
 
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Re: Aiki and cross training

Quote:
John Matsushima wrote: View Post
Well, I wonder why Chiba and the other uchideshi gave Dobson a hard time for practicing another art? hmmmmmmmm Why do you think they did this?
Young and fanatic would be my guess, especially if you know Chiba. I'd note that Chiba himself cross-trained both before and after he started studying with Ueshiba.

Quote:
John Matsushima wrote: View Post
So what are the shortcomings in Aikido that one can improve by cross-training?
What are the shortcomings in anything that can be overcome by a broader range of experience?

Quote:
John Matsushima wrote: View Post
And again, I'm sure that once a person learns a second language, learning more becomes easier, but do you think it means at the same time???
Yes I do.

Best,

Chris

Last edited by Chris Li : 06-15-2007 at 09:19 AM.

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Old 06-15-2007, 09:36 AM   #33
George S. Ledyard
 
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Re: Aiki and cross training

Quote:
John Matsushima wrote: View Post
Well, I wonder why Chiba and the other uchideshi gave Dobson a hard time for practicing another art? hmmmmmmmm Why do you think they did this?
This attitude has more to do with notions of what loyalty means than it does with some fundamental attitude against cross training. Chiba Sensei, in particular, is quite outspoken about the teacher student relationship.

In this way of thinking, one has only one Teacher. I believe that many of the deshi did other training. But their relationships with these other teachers was simply that of student and instructor. O-Sensei was clearly their Teacher.

Chiba Sensei cross trained... he is a Shihan level teacher of Iaido. His teacher was Mitsuzuka Sensei.

Quote:
I don't know what Ueshiba meant when he said "go do what you want", but you don't either. How do you know Raul, that Ueshiba didn't consider it a slight or insult? It is hard to tell, I think especially of Japanese, who don't say exactly what they are thinking.
Actually, I strongly suspect that O-Sensei was just fine with it. You will often see the senior deshi getting their knickers all in a twist over something the Teacher doesn't give a rip about. It is often the senior deshi who are the worst about political garbage. When I visited Hombu dojo, some of the resident foreign students made comments about how I should lay low because I was Saotome Sensei's student. In fact what happened was the the senior teachers treated me as an honored guest. I had tea with the Nidai Doshu at his home, he and Osawa Sensei both used me for ukemi repeatedly, Watanabe Sensei used me as uke for an entire class. They went way beyond ordinary politeness. It was the juniors, in this case the foreign juniors who were all worried about the political BS. O-Sensei was off worrying about the Kami and World Peace... you think he cared if someone did some outside training if it came from being serious about ones desire to master the art?

Quote:
If Ueshiba thought it was ok to put fish heads in his wheaties, it doesn't mean I'm ok with it.
Ok, although if he had said that fish heads on your wheaties were central to mastering the art, I guess I'd try to figure out why. I'd at least give the idea some attention. O-Sensei represents the model for all of us in the Ueshiba line of Aikido. I wouldn't arbitrarily write off something he said just because I didn't feel like doing it.

Quote:
I think the definition of cross training is getting blurred here. Whatever Ueshiba or anyone else did "pre-aikido" doesn't make it cross-training. According to Wikipedia, cross training " It takes advantage of the particular effectiveness of each training method, while at the same time attempting to neglect the shortcomings of that method by combining it with other methods that address its weaknesses.

So what are the shortcomings in Aikido that one can improve by cross-training?
Well, aside from the fact that there must be 1000 pages of writing here on the Aikiweb about the shortcomings of Aikido training,,, here are a few of the big ones:
1) the inability of most Aikido folks to execute their stylized attacks with any speed and power
2) lack of exposure to non-standard striking techniques as done in "striking " arts.
3) lack of competition which forces people to really be able to do their techniques as opposed to doing them with cooperative partners.
4) simplistic understanding of lines of attack, especially in weapons work.
5) way over simplified knife work
6) lack of understanding of sword and staff work that comes from outside the art. Most folks doing Aikido weapons work have no idea of the real context, they are just going through the motions
7) massive superiority complex about the moral high ground occupied by the art, sustained only by not getting out and seeing what's out there.
8) a training methodology (if you want to call it that) which isn't really structured to reproduce the skills of it's Founder or his most accomplished students. Training which encourages tension, both mental and physical, rather than the relaxation required to do high level technique.
9) very little understanding of "aiki" in an art called "Aiki-do".

People need to get out more. Some of the finest "aiki" technique I have seen was done by teachers not from Aikido (Angier, Kuroda, even Vasiliev).

While I am not a believer in making Aikido competitive, people could benefit from investigating what it's like to try sword work on a kendo practitioner or to try to get kotegaeshi on a Jeet Kun Do student.

I simply don't see any way that people are going to learn to strike with any competency simply by training within mainstream Aikido.

Aiki sword is interesting but you can't really appreciate what is going on unless you get some wider exposure. The same is really true of jo.

Quote:
And again, I'm sure that once a person learns a second language, learning more becomes easier, but do you think it means at the same time???
I think that there are arts which are more complementary than others. Japanese arts are more complementary in general than non although T'ai Chi and Systema would, in my mind, be closer in the intention behind the training than modern sport Judo for instance. Kenjutsu under a top teacher would be better than kendo, in my opinion. But either would be better than nothing.

Most folks are completely unaware that, back in the 1930's O-Sensei adopted a son and was in tending for him to be his successor. The man he recruited for this position was a kendo practitioner. O-Sensei's perception of our art was that it was closer to kendo, a weapons art, than it was to Judo or Jiu Jutsu (at least as empty hand arts). I found this fact to be very revealing about how the Founder saw what we do.

The lack of quality weapons training for most Aikido folks makes an understanding of why O-Sensei had felt this way, impossible.

Some training is less compatible I think. Most karate taught in the US is not very high level. It is all about physical power and strength. So that level of karate training wouldn't help and would probably hinder your Aikido. Mixed martial arts is also a mixed bag. Brazilian jiu jutsu under someone like the Gracies or the Machados is very aiki and would probably be helpful. UFC style "ground and pound" would almost certainly imprint all sorts of tension, both mental and physical and I believe would hold one back.

Any type of T'ai Chi, Hsing-I, Bagua training with an accomplished teacher would be great, with the typical instructor one finds around, may not very helpful but not detrimental.

Iaido is good but Iaijutsu is better. Doing ones sword work in solo forms all the time doesn't tie in well with the fact that what we do is largely partnered. Whereas, iai training which has paired kata is excellent.

Another little known fact: There were sword teachers brought into Hombu who taught kenjutsu classes to the interested deshi. It was all done on the QT and the folks who participated will not talk about who came and what they did. The fact is that teachers like Imaizumi Sensei, Saotome Sensei, and others, have a whole repertoire of technique derived from Itto Ryu, Kashima Ryu and Yagyu Ryu sword. I asked Stan Pranin about who and what was taught and no one seems to know, outside of the folks that attended, and they aren't talking. If you look at the post war Hombu dojo group of Shihan, you can clearly see the difference between teachers who acquired some skill with the weapons and those who didn't.

Last little known fact: The deshi, right after the war, used to go out and test their stuff out by getting in fights (Shirata Sensei recounts that this was not unique to after the war). Often the preferred targets were American military guys out in the bars. O-Sensei would yell at them when he caught them sneaking back into the dorm but he also wanted to know if they had won or not. These guys "cross trained" by trying their stuff out on people who had no Aikido training whatever. I am not recommending this, just showing the the best folks out there all had a larger experience than jst Aikido by itself.

Last edited by George S. Ledyard : 06-15-2007 at 09:42 AM.

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Old 06-15-2007, 09:47 AM   #34
Chuck Clark
 
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Re: Aiki and cross training

Thanks for that post Geoge. There's lots in there for everyone to think about for sure.

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Old 06-15-2007, 09:53 AM   #35
Chuck Clark
 
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Re: Aiki and cross training

Quote:
Drew Ames wrote: View Post
Ellis Amdur has written about watching Don Draeger (I think) doing aikido. What Ellis noticed when he saw footage of Donn Draeger doing aikido, is that Draeger always had three points of contact with uke -- a concept taken from Judo.
Donn Draeger Sensei was a godan in aikido in Tomiki Sensei's organization.

Chuck Clark
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Old 06-15-2007, 10:27 AM   #36
Roman Kremianski
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Re: Aiki and cross training

Quote:
Last little known fact: The deshi, right after the war, used to go out and test their stuff out by getting in fights (Shirata Sensei recounts that this was not unique to after the war). Often the preferred targets were American military guys out in the bars.
Nice stories don't really make for nice evidence. I don't really see how this bit is relevant. No one will ever know the truth in my opinion.

Everything else was spot on George. Always a pleasure reading your stuff.
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Old 06-15-2007, 10:38 AM   #37
Basia Halliop
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Re: Aiki and cross training

Quote:
By the way, Mr. Li, are you telling me that if I go out and cross-train in a third language it will help my Japanese? Would Spanish help?
Actually yes, most of the research I've seen on multilingualism (plus my own personal experience) suggests it would...
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Old 06-15-2007, 10:53 AM   #38
Roman Kremianski
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Re: Aiki and cross training

Is it normal to show a decrease in brain activity with each new language learned? Hehe.
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Old 06-15-2007, 10:56 AM   #39
MM
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Re: Aiki and cross training

Quote:
George S. Ledyard wrote: View Post
Well, aside from the fact that there must be 1000 pages of writing here on the Aikiweb about the shortcomings of Aikido training,,, here are a few of the big ones:
1) the inability of most Aikido folks to execute their stylized attacks with any speed and power
2) lack of exposure to non-standard striking techniques as done in "striking " arts.
3) lack of competition which forces people to really be able to do their techniques as opposed to doing them with cooperative partners.
4) simplistic understanding of lines of attack, especially in weapons work.
5) way over simplified knife work
6) lack of understanding of sword and staff work that comes from outside the art. Most folks doing Aikido weapons work have no idea of the real context, they are just going through the motions
7) massive superiority complex about the moral high ground occupied by the art, sustained only by not getting out and seeing what's out there.
8) a training methodology (if you want to call it that) which isn't really structured to reproduce the skills of it's Founder or his most accomplished students. Training which encourages tension, both mental and physical, rather than the relaxation required to do high level technique.
9) very little understanding of "aiki" in an art called "Aiki-do".

People need to get out more. Some of the finest "aiki" technique I have seen was done by teachers not from Aikido (Angier, Kuroda, even Vasiliev).

While I am not a believer in making Aikido competitive, people could benefit from investigating what it's like to try sword work on a kendo practitioner or to try to get kotegaeshi on a Jeet Kun Do student.

I simply don't see any way that people are going to learn to strike with any competency simply by training within mainstream Aikido.

Aiki sword is interesting but you can't really appreciate what is going on unless you get some wider exposure. The same is really true of jo.
It was a great post. Thank you for that.

I'd wonder if you would care to expand a little on some of the above?

Let's take #5 and #6. Would it be better to change the way knife, sword, and jo work is done inside aikido training or to get a better foundation of them from another art?

Both have been done. Nishio sensei, I believe, created his own sword work that correlated to aikido. I think Saotome sensei has his own distinct sword work, too. Mochizuki sensei changed how he taught aikido.

While other dojos have some form of koryu available for training, whether kendo, kenjutsu, jodo, etc. but keep the aikido portion fairly separate.

How do you decide which way to go?

Thanks,
Mark
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Old 06-15-2007, 11:19 AM   #40
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Re: Aiki and cross training

Quote:
Roman Kremianski wrote: View Post
Nice stories don't really make for nice evidence. I don't really see how this bit is relevant. No one will ever know the truth in my opinion.
I disagree. Witness accounts are some of the means to glean what was actually going on, as opposed to the official party line. Ignore it if you want, but I'm sure plenty will find it relevant.
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Old 06-15-2007, 12:28 PM   #41
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Re: Aiki and cross training

Roman just doesn't want to face reality. For him it is all glowing and peace. I have no doubt that a bunch of young men might go out on the town and get into a little scrap. They had the home turf, there was not the danger of weapons being involved like today, etc etc. It's not like George is recounting some strange bizarre story full of fantasy and intrigue. The guys were essentially bullies. Same with alot of the early karate guys. That's how they learned.

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Old 06-15-2007, 12:30 PM   #42
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Re: Aiki and cross training

Quote:
John Matsushima wrote: View Post
Well, I wonder why Chiba and the other uchideshi gave Dobson a hard time for practicing another art? hmmmmmmmm Why do you think they did this? I don't know what Ueshiba meant when he said "go do what you want", but you don't either. How do you know Raul, that Ueshiba didn't consider it a slight or insult? It is hard to tell, I think especially of Japanese, who don't say exactly what they are thinking. If Ueshiba thought it was ok to put fish heads in his wheaties, it doesn't mean I'm ok with it.
So now you are more of an authority than Morihei himself? Nishio, Chiba, Yamaguchi and many others cross-trained even after they arrived in Hombu, with the knowledge and permission of Osensei. You know more about aikido than them? Don't argue from received ideas about political correctness, John, or what you think proper respect to a sensei consists of. Its a loser of an argument. Argue from facts, from what those who came before you did. Respect to one's teacher is not about closing one's mind to other paths. Morihei and his deshi took many paths to improving their aikido. Who are we to say they were wrong?
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Old 06-15-2007, 12:34 PM   #43
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Re: Aiki and cross training

The judo masters, tenth dans, like Mifune and Iida loved going on the town and getting into trouble with gangsters and bullies. It was how they preferred to prove that their waza worked in the real world. Kano would complain about how often he would have to bail them out of jail. But that was what young men did. so it shouldnt be surprising that the deshi of Morihei did something similar.
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Old 06-15-2007, 02:00 PM   #44
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Re: Aiki and cross training

John,

I think what's at work a lot of times is the difference between public face/private face. So sure, in public "aikido is all you need. don't crosstrain." But privately, watch what people do...that tells you all you need to know.

Roman,

Sure it's "just a story." That's how history works. You look and see if one story from one person can be corroborated with the stories of others. There's plenty of corroboration about aikido people going out to look for street fights. Again, it's the public face of "peace, love etc," and the private face of "yeah so, smash them!" I don't even know why I have to explain this at all, because what I'm talking about is documented in the literature.

Even Shioda wrote about getting into scraps with people in the streets, and in a brothel in Shanghai.

Last edited by Tim Fong : 06-15-2007 at 02:11 PM.
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Old 06-15-2007, 02:27 PM   #45
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Re: Aiki and cross training

I've been training in Aikido for almost 4 years now, will be testing for nikkyo in the next month or so. About a month ago, I started training with a kenpo/jujitsu club in the area, and I have enjoyed it.

My recomendation- cross training is a great idea once you have a firm foundation in what you want to be your primary art, assuming here that it's Aikido. I think if I had tried to train in more than one art at a time while I was still learning the fundamentals of Aikido, it would have been more difficult to learn and apply the fundamentals of Aikido consistently, due to how different Aikido is from almost every other martial art out there.

Once you have a good foundation in Aikido, I think cross-training is a great idea. It's given me a chance to try aikido in situations outside of our normal practices, and to work with people who can protect themselves, but don't know expect an aikido technique. Personally, I've enjoyed it.
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Old 06-15-2007, 02:35 PM   #46
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Re: Aiki and cross training

Quote:
Roman Kremianski wrote: View Post
Nice stories don't really make for nice evidence. I don't really see how this bit is relevant. No one will ever know the truth in my opinion.

Everything else was spot on George. Always a pleasure reading your stuff.
Since I heard the stories from someone who was there, I feel like I have a pretty good picture...
- George

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Old 06-15-2007, 07:50 PM   #47
Roman Kremianski
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Re: Aiki and cross training

Quote:
Roman just doesn't want to face reality. For him it is all glowing and peace. I have no doubt that a bunch of young men might go out on the town and get into a little scrap. They had the home turf, there was not the danger of weapons being involved like today, etc etc. It's not like George is recounting some strange bizarre story full of fantasy and intrigue. The guys were essentially bullies. Same with alot of the early karate guys. That's how they learned.
Reality? How is a filtered, second-hand retelling of what some Aikidoka went out and did reality? And I'm not talking about the "I was there" people. I'm talking about the "a friend of a friend of a friend told me..." folks. When the Gracies wanted to demonstrate BJJ for the world, they held actual physical matches, filmed on tape and with commentary. No one needed to spread stories about how Royce went to the local bar and arm-barred thugs to test his skills.

Again, I'm not saying these stories never happened. Just don't place all your confidence and faith in Aikido on a few vague events where some young dudes went out and got into shit. I just don't see what it adds to your training, and how that actually serves as any kind of evidence to benefit Aikido's image.

Sorry, just my wacky opinion. This is why I train in MMA alongside Aikido, Joseph. To do the opposite of "avoid reality".

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Old 06-15-2007, 11:28 PM   #48
Tim Fong
 
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Re: Aiki and cross training

Quote:
Roman Kremianski wrote: View Post
Reality? How is a filtered, second-hand retelling of what some Aikidoka went out and did reality? And I'm not talking about the "I was there" people. I'm talking about the "a friend of a friend of a friend told me..." folks. When the Gracies wanted to demonstrate BJJ for the world, they held actual physical matches, filmed on tape and with commentary. No one needed to spread stories about how Royce went to the local bar and arm-barred thugs to test his skills.
Yeah, how is some second hand retelling of what some guys saw at Waterloo, reality. Yeah. That stuff never happened.

Quote:
Again, I'm not saying these stories never happened. Just don't place all your confidence and faith in Aikido on a few vague events where some young dudes went out and got into shit. I just don't see what it adds to your training, and how that actually serves as any kind of evidence to benefit Aikido's image.
Okay so you're not saying it never happened, and you're not saying it ever happened. So what exactly are you trying to say?

And I don't place any confidence in Aikido based on a "few vague events." My knowledge that these things likely happened, has nothing to do with my confidence. Rather, it has to do with assessing what kinds of people were studying aikido during its prime, as opposed to what kinds of people are studying it now, by and large.

Quote:
Sorry, just my wacky opinion. This is why I train in MMA alongside Aikido, Joseph. To do the opposite of "avoid reality".

Great. More people should be doing that. How do you feel that your aikido training benefits your ringtime in MMA?
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Old 06-16-2007, 02:07 PM   #49
Chris Li
 
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Re: Aiki and cross training

An interesting quote from an interview with Kazuo Chiba:

Quote:
Yes, I started doing iaido when I was an uchideshi, because O-Sensei told me to.
Best,

Chris

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Old 06-16-2007, 02:22 PM   #50
Aikibu
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Re: Aiki and cross training

Quote:
Raul Rodrigo wrote: View Post
Nishio, Chiba, Yamaguchi and many others cross-trained even after they arrived in Hombu, with the knowledge and permission of Osensei. You know more about aikido than them? Don't argue from received ideas about political correctness, John, or what you think proper respect to a sensei consists of. Its a loser of an argument. Argue from facts, from what those who came before you did. Respect to one's teacher is not about closing one's mind to other paths. Morihei and his deshi took many paths to improving their aikido. Who are we to say they were wrong?
Great Post Raul!

Nishio Shihan greatly encouraged his students to cross train in fact it was almost required. Heck he even throw out almost the entire Hombu style cirriculum and started from scratch with O'Sensei's blessing! Nishio Shihan started his own Iaido since he understood what O'Sensei meant by "Aikido is the Sword. Nishio Shihan studied various Jo-Ryu in order to compliment and develop our own Jo technique...He held Dan Ranks in Judo and Karate and said that there was ONLY ONE WAY to measure our Aikido. How effective was it against other Martial Arts!!! Not just Gendai Arts... but Koryu Arts as well.... How can an Aikidoka KNOW if he/she has an effective technical practice if they have never experianced Randori/Kumite with another Martial Art at a bare minimum???

Once again Ledyard Sensei and Don Magee both hit the nail on the hard headed.

If folks really listen they can here the whispers of something about Aikido that is hardly ever said directly... and the practical application of which can only be experianced when one practices Aikido against a non-cooperative seasoned Martial Artist...

AIKIDO really works...LOL

If you have a Sensei who restricts this "baptism of fire" (so to speak) by not allowing you to crosstrain. GET THE HECK OUT OF THERE. He/she is doing the both of you a great disservice... Is not in the spirit of Harmony and is giving Aikido a bad name.

Just my humble opinion. LOL

Please also accept my humble apologies in advance.

William Hazen

How do folks expect Aikido to grow... remain vibrant... and alive.... if they close themselves off to the world around them???

Last edited by Aikibu : 06-16-2007 at 02:25 PM.
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