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Old 10-10-2001, 10:29 AM   #1
BC
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Treatment of "difficult" students

I'm curious how other instructors deal with students in their classes that for whatever reason, purposely act difficult with their training partners? By this I mean students who consistently strongly resist, shutdown, or counter their junior training partners on the mat. I'd like to be clear I'm not referring to students who are too rough or hurt their partners.

For instance, their is a senior kyu student in our dojo who is always trying to resist, shutdown and counter students junior to him. I and others in the know usually avoid bowing in with him, but occasionally it can't be helped. In the past couple of classes where I have been paired up with him, he was up to his usual old "tricks." The instructor for both of these classes happened to be by sempai. Well, on both of these occasions, the instructor saw what was going on and basically made this student take some, fast, constant and rigorous ukemi for about five minutes straight. The end result? Took the fire right out of the guy, and he was for the most part a good practice partner for the remainder of the class.

So, how have other instructors handled these types of students?

Regards,

Robert Cronin
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Old 10-10-2001, 11:22 AM   #2
aikifish
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I am not an instructor but would just like to say that I have encountered this same exact situation. I feel as if (and have been told by other training partners) I work as hard as I can on blending with people who do this to me on the mat. However, I haven't been able to walk away feeling as if I accomplished anything or even felt very discouraged about my training because of people who get so easily frustrated and possessed by their ego when training with kohai. It makes me want to scream "Get over yourself!"

A.
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Old 10-10-2001, 11:52 AM   #3
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When I see this, I usually remind the senior students that it is easy to resist when you know what technique is going to be applied by a junior student, and that he/she should try to provied a more realistic attack. I also will quote O'Sensei's rules on training. More to the point, that training is not competition nor for gratifying one's ego. If this still doesn't work...the brisk ukemi drill is sometimes nice too

I will tend to remind them of the philosophy underlying aikido...and that until they try harder to grasp it, advancing will be difficult. (A person like this often is very concerned about rank and advancement).

Just my humble opinion.

In Aiki,

Mike Ellefson
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Old 10-11-2001, 07:05 AM   #4
L. Camejo
 
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Ai symbol Hmmm Interesting

Quote:
Originally posted by MikeE
I will tend to remind them of the philosophy underlying aikido...and that until they try harder to grasp it, advancing will be difficult. (A person like this often is very concerned about rank and advancement).
I agree with this 100% the difficult ones tend to always want to know when the next grading is and if they can double grade (which never happens in our dojo ) and stuff like that.

It's as if they see themselves in constant competition with their fellow classmates.

The ukemi drills tend to work great. Another option is to shut down their practice by simply not responding with a technique unless they attack properly.

An option for more experienced practitioners can be to become more relaxed as they become more resistant, by doing that the uke tends to actually flow the technique around the force of their resistant opponent.
This tends to work in my dojo where we do Shodokan (Tomiki) Aikido and there tends to be a lot of resistance during randori.

My 2 cents.
L.C.

--Mushin Mugamae - No Mind No Posture. He who is possessed by nothing possesses everything.--
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Old 10-11-2001, 07:52 AM   #5
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Re: Hmmm Interesting

Quote:
Originally posted by L. Camejo
An option for more experienced practitioners can be to become more relaxed as they become more resistant, by doing that the uke tends to actually flow the technique around the force of their resistant opponent.
This tends to work in my dojo where we do Shodokan (Tomiki) Aikido and there tends to be a lot of resistance during randori.
Expanding on this just slightly just in case someone chooses to read this wrong.

It is very easy to shut down a technique you know is coming. Static resistance during the performance of paired practice has its place but generally its use is misunderstood. It is done not to shut down the techniques but to understand body mechanics.

Randori resistance is the exact opposite. Fluid, body placement and counters. There is as Larry mentioned - flow.

Larry as a Shodokan person is in my mind a little contaminated by Aikikai philosophy however common to both styles is harmonious practice. That does not mean non-resistant dancing but training which maximizes the benefit of both participants.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 10-11-2001, 10:20 AM   #6
Jem8472
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At the dojo where I train, we don't have anyone that does that but some ppl to lockdown a bit to make sure you get the move right.

I find if someone is being difficult just do another move, it works because a) they are not expecting it b) they are trying to lock down against a different move.

If this still does not work just call your Sensi over and ask him to show you again ( on your partner) how the move is done excatly. Then watch him resist that!

Jem

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Old 10-11-2001, 10:25 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jem8472
If this still does not work just call your Sensi over and ask him to show you again ( on your partner) how the move is done excatly. Then watch him resist that!
Well sure - but I remember having Shihan watch me with a guy who I felt was deliberately trying to mess me up. When Shihan did the technique - uke responded near perfectly.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 10-11-2001, 10:35 AM   #8
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Re: Hmmm Interesting

Quote:
Originally posted by PeterR
Expanding on this just slightly just in case someone chooses to read this wrong.

It is very easy to shut down a technique you know is coming. Static resistance during the performance of paired practice has its place but generally its use is misunderstood. It is done not to shut down the techniques but to understand body mechanics.
On most occasions when I have ukes lock down with their grip this is what they are trying to do -- teach me the mechanics. But there are the rare one or two ukes that lock down on me not to teach me but to show me I can't do it to them. There is only one guy I now of that has done this to me, but he seems to come to class about once every three months. He is 4th kyu and has been "ready" to test for 3rd kyu since I started aikido a year and a half ago. Now that I'm farther along I usually can overcome this display of ego. And now that I'm farther along, I use this as an opportunity to deal with a "difficult" person. Earlier, I would just not train with him.

But how do I tell the difference? It's demeanor and experience really. Most of the folks who "lock down" on me are higher ranking (high kyu/dan ranks), and I have been training with them for a while. They know me, and I know them. They know I have a good idea how to do a technique, and now that I'm 4th kyu, they sincerely help me learn the subtlties of the technique by reversing on me or locking up. I also know that they are helping me and that they have no ego out there to "prove" I can't do the technique to them. They show me I can't, but they also show me how I can. They are being excellent sempai. Those who just lock down with malice could care less about showing you how to do the technique to them. They just want to show you that you can't.

Despite all this I really believe that we are talking about the rare person here. But how do we deal with it? I'm not a teacher so I can't how to deal with a student, but I can tell you how to deal with it as training partner. First, these folks are our lessons of learning to dealing with difficult people. Just keep training, you will learn the skills necessary from other helpful people to overcome them. Second, sometimes these situations can turn bad, i.e. tempers start to rise on both sides (I have had this experience-same guy). If they do, bow out of training with the uke. Third, assert yourself. If the uke apparently won't help you by his own assertion, use your own words and ask them how to do it to them. Be careful here and make sure you use words right. Avoid being accusatory. Fourth, if it gets too bad tell a senior or the sensei. Let them deal with the guy (or gal)for you.

Anne Marie
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Old 10-11-2001, 11:09 AM   #9
Young-In Park
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Re: Treatment of "difficult" students

Quote:
Originally posted by BC
I'm curious how other instructors deal with students in their classes that for whatever reason, purposely act difficult with their training partners?
In the beginning for two years, I regularly trained with someone who was extraordinarily difficult. He would watch the instructor demonstrate the technique to know where he should resist his partner. Since he was bigger and stronger than me, I couldn't force the technique even if I wanted to.

I heard an instructor (and several times after that) say if your partner resists, do another technique. So whenever he resisted, I did a different technique. The most annoying thing was to hear my partner, after getting up off the floor, tell me that I did the "wrong technique."

Although he no longer practices Aikido, I recently saw my former training partner. I thanked him for being an asshole. I told him that I actually learned a lot from him. And I told him I thought he was one of the best training partners I've had.

I'll admit in the beginning it was frustrating as hell. There were several days in which I didn't even bother to try to throw him. Reflecting back on my experience with a difficult training partner, I realized he taught me a great deal.

But I still get annoyed whenever someone resists, I do a different technique and they complain. I actually had another partner screaming the whole way down to the ground, "You're doing the wrong technique!"

YoungIn Park
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Old 10-11-2001, 11:24 AM   #10
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Re: Treatment of "difficult" students

There's many positive sides to different kinds of resisting ukes.
Not everyone is out there to get you, many people are dealing with their own demons, maybe even not consciously.
Let them do their thing, and try not to be judgemental. You're not perfect either.

Just my $4099.43 .
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Old 10-11-2001, 11:32 AM   #11
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Oh and I completely agree with YoungInPark.

There's always people who first decide to "challenge" my technique, and then whine about me doing the "wrong" technique.
I just ignore the whining and keep doing what I'm doing.
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Old 10-11-2001, 02:45 PM   #12
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Wow - I always just grin and bear it. We change partners enough so its no big problems. I might explain to my kohei the concept of changing technique but I consider it really bad form to go off on your own tangent - sensei be dammed.

Of course flowing from technique to technique is its own training exercies. Great fun when sensei has us do it.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 10-11-2001, 03:41 PM   #13
JMCavazos
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Most of the times that this has happened to me, I have been able to tell if the the person was resisting to help me learn how to properly execute a technique or if the person was just being plain difficult. Depending on the type of person that I assessed him to be, I have acted accordingly. In good Aiki, I have asked the person to help me in getting the technique correct. In the person with bad Aiki, I usually went to the other technique that flowed best. When he would say that I did the wrong technique, my reply was that if he would do a better job as an uke, then I would keep with the technique that was being taught.

As an instructor, I have had students ask me what to do with difficult ukes, and in that case I will use that person on the next technique demonstration.

I would like to add, that I probably did not know the basics and the principles of Aikido well enough to use it on an unwilling uke for the first 5-6 years of my training. At one point, I internalized the art and have found that I can pretty much do a technique, whether the uke resists of not. Resisting hurts him much more.

Of course, when it is your turn to uke - be prepared!

As a 4th kyu, I probably would not have been capable of making an unwilling uke flow the way I wanted him to flow. I would have just moved on to a more willing uke, then let my Sensei know about the person that I was having problems with.
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Old 10-11-2001, 04:10 PM   #14
Young-In Park
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Quote:
Originally posted by PeterR
I might explain to my kohei the concept of changing technique but I consider it really bad form to go off on your own tangent - sensei be dammed.
In my opinion, that is one of the major problems of some Aikido training. Some people watch the teacher demonstrate a technique. When they practice the technique, they do the technique, regardless if their partner is capable and/or wants to recieve the technique. They'll force the technique to "work" even though it may not be appropriate. And all of this is done to avoid "bad form."

And what if a teacher tells you to do something that clearly violates a principle of Aikido? Do you do what the teacher tells you to do as so not to appear disrespectful? Or do you actually think for yourself?

Is Aikido about doing things right or doing the right thing?

YoungIn "Bad Form" Park
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Old 10-11-2001, 04:34 PM   #15
PeterR
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by Young-In Park
And what if a teacher tells you to do something that clearly violates a principle of Aikido? Do you do what the teacher tells you to do as so not to appear disrespectful? Or do you actually think for yourself?
Well that's never happened but if you know so much better why do you need a teacher.

There is a time and place for free-style. If a sensei asks the people to work on a particular technique - that is what you should do. Anything else is just simple disruption and arrogance.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 10-11-2001, 06:52 PM   #16
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Both of the 5th dans in my dojo, when I've asked them how to handle a technique when uke is not doing what he should (eg, not grabbing the shoulder in kata tori, doing more of a yokomen than a shomen, etc) tell me that "uke is being stupid" and to do another technique. When they teach and their uke is not attacking with the right energy or direction to do the technique they are trying to demo, they often will just do something else. So I know why so many are talking about free-style, but I don't like it...I would rather do the technique that we were just shown.

Depending on the ukemi level of my obnoxious partner, I will a)ignore it, tomorrow is another day.
b) tell them I would get more out of it if they would XYZ rather than ABC.
c)give them 12 chances to behave, and then shut them down in return (usually gets their attention as I'm half their size, and their ensuing struggles often attract the instructor's attention)---make sure your ukemi is up to this before you try it.
d)if they are still obnoxious, and I know their ukemi can take it (around here usually means shodan or higher) I do an alternate technique based on what they are forcing
One other thing, sometimes resistant ukes are frightened ukes, so I will ask that if a) I think that is really the reason or b) I know it is not but they are too obnoxious for words.
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Old 10-11-2001, 07:00 PM   #17
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opps, make that 'both the 6th dans'...
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Old 10-12-2001, 07:09 AM   #18
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Circle Re: Re: Hmmm Interesting

Quote:
Originally posted by PeterR
Static resistance during the performance of paired practice has its place but generally its use is misunderstood. It is done not to shut down the techniques but to understand body mechanics.

Randori resistance is the exact opposite. Fluid, body placement and counters. There is as Larry mentioned - flow.

Larry as a Shodokan person is in my mind a little contaminated by Aikikai philosophy however common to both styles is harmonious practice. That does not mean non-resistant dancing but training which maximizes the benefit of both participants.
Great clarification of my point Peter. Thank you.

Did not realise I was "contaminated" by Aikikai philosophy though.

I have used these philosophies with great success in my Shodokan practice for both free practice and teaching.

Mind leads bodies (ours and uke's).

One other point... for all of us. If our technique does not work with resistance, doesn't that mean that we're probably doing something wrong? From my experience when I had just started Aikido, every time my technique was resisted I had ignored or missed something about the principles of "energy redirection" or balance breaking in my technique. Now those exact same techniques work against any sized opponent with focused resistance, even in hanza handachi.

We can learn movements from the first class, the technique however, takes much longer to learn.

Aikido is blending with force... even skilled and focused resistance is still a force that one can blend with or utilise in some form.

Just my $9.99
Arigato Gozaimashita
L.C.

--Mushin Mugamae - No Mind No Posture. He who is possessed by nothing possesses everything.--
http://www.tntaikido.org
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Old 10-12-2001, 07:40 AM   #19
JMCavazos
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Larry, that is exactly right, and what I was trying to say in my previous post!

I tend to believe that it is easier to learn a technique than it is to learn the body movement of aikido and learning how to redirect energy(ki). But once you learn how to redirect energy, break your uke's one-point, etc... then it doesn't really matter how resistant the uke is.... Now most times it just go with the way the uke wants to go - and it usually ends up in another technique.

It is really important for uke to learn how to go with the technique that is being taught. And again, what I do depends on the energy that the uke is letting out - positive or negative ki.

By the way, your futbol (soccer) team really did well this past weekend against Honduras! I hope you guys don't play that well against the US team though!

In Aiki,
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Old 10-12-2001, 08:43 AM   #20
Young-In Park
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Quote:
Originally posted by PeterR


Well that's never happened but if you know so much better why do you need a teacher.

There is a time and place for free-style. If a sensei asks the people to work on a particular technique - that is what you should do. Anything else is just simple disruption and arrogance.
Well, it has happened to me before. And I never said I didn't need a teacher.

"[i] should do"? Disruptive? Arrogant? I will do what the sensei asks me to do. I won't be disruptive in class. I won't be arrogant.

YoungIn Park
Aikido's Bart Simpson?

PS. During an audio interview conducted by journalist Alex Ben Block, Bruce Lee said:

Most martial arts instructors are so doggone stubborn, you know? I mean their attitude is "Well, two hundred years ago it was taught like this, therefore it should be continued to be taught like this." To maintain that type of attitude - I mean, you've had it! You will still be back in [that time capsule]. You will never grow, because learning is a discovering thing. It's a constant process of discovery. Whereas, if we follow the old method, it is simply a continuous repetition of what was being handed down several hundred years ago.

Lee even had devised a mock tombstone that sat upon his office desk and reveal to visitors his attitude toward those who blindly follow the classical traditions of the past instead of evolving with the martial advancements of the present. The inscription read:

In memory of a once fluid man crammed and distorted by the classical mess.

("The Warrior Within" by John Little)

Lee also said in 1963:

I'd like to inform the public that gung fu cannot be mastered in just "three easy lessons." Intelligent thinking and hard work are required.

("The Tao of Gung Fu" by Bruce Lee)
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Old 10-12-2001, 09:24 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally posted by Young-In Park
I will do what the sensei asks me to do. I won't be disruptive in class. I won't be arrogant.
By the way I write to the thread taking quotations as they fit - its rare that something is specifically targeted at one person and then I will say so clearly.

It all boils down to the principle of Shu Ha Ri. Many Old and New budo put great emphasis on students finding their own way from a core set of principles often defined by a core set of kata. Pointed out by my shihan - there is no Aikido style beyond the individual. That's a paraphrase and was actually said in response to another point but it holds true. Getting stuck in kata sets is not going to do anything for your Aikido - eventually you must break out. Of course you can always do so too soon.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 10-26-2001, 02:40 PM   #22
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Well that's never happened but if you know so much better why do you need a teacher.

There is a time and place for free-style. If a sensei asks the people to work on a particular technique - that is what you should do. Anything else is just simple disruption and arrogance.


Is your teacher flawless? Or maybe you are not very observant? Perhaps you are unable to learn from others' mistakes.

The fact is, in the history of Aikido, the same technique has never been performed twice. There is ONLY freestyle. And if you act according to an imagined ideal partner, rather than the one in front of you, you are not learning anything useful.
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Old 10-26-2001, 04:46 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally posted by ca
opps, make that 'both the 6th dans'...
Send them my congratulations on their recent promotions.


Last edited by Erik : 10-26-2001 at 06:34 PM.
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Old 10-26-2001, 05:43 PM   #24
PeterR
 
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Well first of all we are talking about doing techniques completely different from what the teacher of the moment is asking the class to do. With out a doubt there must be an adjustment based on both tori's and uke's body type but that should be within the framework of what was asked.

There is only freestyle

Well I know where you are trying to go with this (see above) but freestyle is where at least attack or defence is unpredicatable.

Is your teacher flawless? Or maybe you are not very observant? Perhaps you are unable to learn from others' mistakes.

Well considering my level of experience compared to my teacher - the answer is yes. My style of Aikido is defined by my teacher. If he looks at me and says I must adjust my technique so - I will. Anyhow, I fail to see what your above quote has to do with some yahoo deliberately doing his own thing against the wishes of the person teaching the class.


Quote:
Originally posted by [Censored]
Well that's never happened but if you know so much better why do you need a teacher.

There is a time and place for free-style. If a sensei asks the people to work on a particular technique - that is what you should do. Anything else is just simple disruption and arrogance.


Is your teacher flawless? Or maybe you are not very observant? Perhaps you are unable to learn from others' mistakes.

The fact is, in the history of Aikido, the same technique has never been performed twice. There is ONLY freestyle. And if you act according to an imagined ideal partner, rather than the one in front of you, you are not learning anything useful.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 10-28-2001, 12:21 AM   #25
guest1234
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Quote:
Originally posted by Erik


Send them my congratulations on their recent promotions.

Well, not too recent, just lack of focus (how surprising ) on my part in writing.
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