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Old 11-08-2001, 08:06 AM   #1
ian
 
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leg sweeps

I've never practised leg sweeps, but seen some styles that do. Did Ueshiba ever practise leg sweeps? I've always presumed that using a leg sweep tends to lock you on to one leg (which makes a counter easy) and is also outside of the normal aikido movement, which requires 'blending' (i.e. a leg sweep is a forced removal of someones leg). However, they do seem extremely effective. Any answers, thoughts?

Ian
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Old 11-08-2001, 08:46 AM   #2
lt-rentaroo
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Hello,

I'm not sure if O Sensei ever practiced leg sweeps. I've never seen any photos of him performing leg sweeps, but it's possible he did teach them. I've practiced leg sweeps in conjunction with other Aikido techniques. For example, during Sumiotoshi the nage can use the leg closest to uke to perform a "sweep". This movement is not so much a forceful displacement of uke's leg, but rather a subtle means of creating further unbalance of uke. There are many types of leg sweeps, some are powerful (like the traditional Tae Kwon Do or Karate leg sweeps) and some are less so. It's really a matter of maintaining the basic principles of Aikido and utilizing only the force necessary to control the situation. Have a good day!

LOUIS A. SHARPE, JR.
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Old 11-08-2001, 09:37 AM   #3
giriasis
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The first time I saw, in my two years of aikido, a leg sweep was this past weekend at the USAF Winter Camp. Shibata showed a variation on ikkyo where after doing the technique but before taking them to the ground you slide your backfoot and take out the uke's foot. (this obviously isn't the best explanation)

Like said above, it really isn't a true leg sweep but more of a further displacement of the uke's balance. The key is learning not to take your balance as well while doing this. They way Shibata demonstrated he did it successfully. Me on the other hand was whole other story.

Anne Marie
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Old 11-08-2001, 07:40 PM   #4
deepsoup
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Re: leg sweeps

Quote:
Originally posted by ian
I've never practised leg sweeps, but seen some styles that do. Did Ueshiba ever practise leg sweeps? I've always presumed that using a leg sweep tends to lock you on to one leg (which makes a counter easy) and is also outside of the normal aikido movement, which requires 'blending' (i.e. a leg sweep is a forced removal of someones leg). However, they do seem extremely effective. Any answers, thoughts?

Ian
This is just an aside really, but a good judo leg-sweep definitely does require blending. The kind of leg-sweep where tori hacks away at uke's leg as if he's trying to fell a tree is not good judo.

If you picture yourself just walking normally, as you step forward the perfect deashi barai would lead your front foot off to one side the instant before you put it back on the floor, and its only when you put weight on that leg you realise it isnt there!

Sean
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Old 11-09-2001, 08:41 AM   #5
tedehara
 
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Smile Re: leg sweeps

Quote:
Originally posted by deepsoup


This is just an aside really, but a good judo leg-sweep definitely does require blending. The kind of leg-sweep where tori hacks away at uke's leg as if he's trying to fell a tree is not good judo....
Sean
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Hear! Hear!
A polite golf clap is heard from the gallery

Quote:
Da Chief Instructor sez:

"If you think about it, we're always falling down when we walk. The only reason we don't is because we stick our other foot in front of us."

Last edited by tedehara : 11-09-2001 at 03:54 PM.

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Old 11-09-2001, 10:00 AM   #6
Greg Jennings
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Quote:
Originally posted by lt-rentaroo
Hello,

I've practiced leg sweeps in conjunction with other Aikido techniques. For example, during Sumiotoshi the nage can use the leg closest to uke to perform a "sweep". This movement is not so much a forceful displacement of uke's leg, but rather a subtle means of creating further unbalance of uke. <snip>
Have a good day!
Hi Louis! Long time, no exchange of bytes.

Our dojo rarely does anything where we interact with uke with a foot off the ground. There are some examples, but that's not what I want to talk about.

Did we do Morotedori Kokyuho when you visited? We often do this in a way that nage slips his thigh/leg behind uke so that uke can't regain his balance. Then when nage turns/applies hip power, uke ends up getting swept across the thigh/hip.

Another thing that we sometimes practice is stepping on one of uke's feet to keep the foot in place in order to prevent uke from regaining his balance. Care has to be taken to get off the foot or uke can get hurt.

OK, my point:

Sweeping uke over our hip/thigh or stepping on uke's foot might compromise our balance. Could traditional judo foot sweeps be that much different?

Regards,

Last edited by Greg Jennings : 11-09-2001 at 01:26 PM.

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Old 11-09-2001, 03:40 PM   #7
lt-rentaroo
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Hello,

Greg - good to hear from you. I don't remember practicing Morotedori Kokyuho during my visit; I do remember practicing Kotegaeshi, Nikyo, and learning some really good stuff about Kokyudosa (in seiza). Actually, I'm now quite invincible when practicing Kokyudosa

Funny you mention stepping on uke's feet / foot during a technique. I do the same occasionally, my explanation is that it's my own personal variation of atemi. Works pretty good during Tenchinage

It was great training with you guys, I'm looking forward to my next visit to Montgomery!

LOUIS A. SHARPE, JR.
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Old 11-09-2001, 05:33 PM   #8
Greg Jennings
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Quote:
Originally posted by lt-rentaroo
Hello,

Greg - good to hear from you.
Hi Again, Louis. I

Quote:

I don't remember practicing Morotedori Kokyuho during my visit;
Bummer.

Oh, well. Consider sayunage a.k.a. sokomen iriminage. Where you sideways facing uke with your arms in front of uke's path. You then take his balance to the rear; enter some and turn your hips in the opposite direction to his movement.

You know the one....the stance the Founder is in in the famous statue in Ayabe.


So, from the top....

Nage side-slips uke, enters some and takes his balance to the rear.

What keeps uke from stepping back to the rear and regaining his balance?

We often practice this such that it's nage's job to occupy the space that uke will step back into before he can do it. This puts nage's leg/thigh behind uke's legs. Nage then leans/turns and uke is thrown to the rear.

But wait! Nage's leg/thigh is behind uke. Uke obviously has to fall over nage's leg/thigh.

When the lean/turn is forceful, the result is rather dramatic.....

Quote:

I do remember practicing Kotegaeshi, Nikyo, and learning some really good stuff about Kokyudosa (in seiza). Actually, I'm now quite invincible when practicing Kokyudosa
I remember you and Mr. Myers playing a lot. I particularly remember him ripping you in kotegaeshi . It's good for him to play with fresh faces that have good ukemi. I'm sure he gets in a rut training with me.

My kokyudosa has been up and down lately. I really had it going on for a while and then didn't practice for a week and lost the edge. No one is getting anything on me, but it just isn't as effortless as it was.

Quote:

It was great training with you guys, I'm looking forward to my next visit to Montgomery!
Any time. We love our visitors. Especially, good ones like you.

Regards,

Greg Jennings
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Old 11-09-2001, 08:25 PM   #9
deepsoup
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Quote:
Originally posted by Greg Jennings
So, from the top....

Nage side-slips uke, enters some and takes his balance to the rear.

What keeps uke from stepping back to the rear and regaining his balance?

We often practice this such that it's nage's job to occupy the space that uke will step back into before he can do it. This puts nage's leg/thigh behind uke's legs. Nage then leans/turns and uke is thrown to the rear.

But wait! Nage's leg/thigh is behind uke. Uke obviously has to fall over nage's leg/thigh.

When the lean/turn is forceful, the result is rather dramatic.....
Hi Greg,

Your description sounds a lot like the technique we Shodokan types call 'gedanate'. Theres an animated gif of Nariyama Shihan performing gedanate on this page of the Shodokan honbu website. Does it look like the sokumen iriminage you have in mind?

Since this thread is also a little bit about judo techniques, I think its also a pretty small step from that technique, into sukuinage.

Sean
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Old 11-10-2001, 01:07 PM   #10
lt-rentaroo
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Hello,

Greg - Thank you for the wonderful compliments. I know that technique by the a.k.a. "Sokumen Iriminage". What you describe makes complete sense to me.

Ohhh, I remember Sensei Myers tossing me about in Kotegaeshi as well; very powerful

Here comes the plug:

To all aikido students who may visit the Montgomery, Alabama area. I definitely recommend visiting Greg's dojo. They are a wonderful group of folks who really know how to make you feel at home.

LOUIS A. SHARPE, JR.
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Old 11-11-2001, 08:24 AM   #11
Greg Jennings
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Quote:
Originally posted by deepsoup


Hi Greg,

Your description sounds a lot like the technique we Shodokan types call 'gedanate'. Theres an animated gif of Nariyama Shihan performing gedanate on this page of the Shodokan honbu website. Does it look like the sokumen iriminage you have in mind?

Since this thread is also a little bit about judo techniques, I think its also a pretty small step from that technique, into sukuinage.

Sean
x
Hi Sean, Nice to meet you.

Actually what I'm describing looks very much like Gyakugamaeate as depicted in the animated GIF on that page.

We emphasize turning the hips a little more, but it's more or less the same technique.

The sukuinage shown in the first pic on the second page is what we call aiki otoshi. We do it a lot from ushiro ryokatadori and similar attacks.

There are two versions: the kind version and the not-so-kind version.

In the kind version, nage scoops uke at the knees, rototating uke's body around his center of mass and then drops uke straight down to the mat.

In the not-so-kind version, nage scoops uke as before but with a powerful twisting of the hips toward uke. It becomes a sort of koshinage. Uke invariably goes into a flat spin and lands flat on his back. Uke must let go, btw. Otherwise his head can be driven into the mat with his and nage's mass behind it.

--

We don't have anything like the version where uke is grabbed by the crotch, although I expect that would be way effective I'll use it the next randori I'm in!

Regards,

Last edited by Greg Jennings : 11-11-2001 at 08:33 AM.

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Old 11-11-2001, 08:48 AM   #12
Greg Jennings
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Quote:
Originally posted by lt-rentaroo
Hello,

Greg - Thank you for the wonderful compliments. I know that technique by the a.k.a. "Sokumen Iriminage". What you describe makes complete sense to me.

Ohhh, I remember Sensei Myers tossing me about in Kotegaeshi as well; very powerful

Here comes the plug:

To all aikido students who may visit the Montgomery, Alabama area. I definitely recommend visiting Greg's dojo. They are a wonderful group of folks who really know how to make you feel at home.
Thank you very much Louis for the plug Louis! We need every bit of help we can get.

If any of you folks are in the USAF (the armed force, not the aikido federation), and TDY or PCS to Maxwell, AFB, we're here and we're 100% free.

I'm glad you enjoyed training with Sensei Myers. He's a hoot.

I've attached a picture of Sensei Myers throwing Arlando Sanders from the Aikikai Aikido Club at University of Alabama.


Best Regards,
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Old 11-11-2001, 11:58 AM   #13
Johan Tibell
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Saito Sensei teaches a leg sweep with the jo. In this leg sweep you sweep your opponent's leg when he moves forwards and haven't planted his foot firmly yet (although it can be done when his foot is planted firmly but will require a little bit of force). You can also sweep both the opponent's legs.

Best Regards,

Johan Tibell
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Old 11-11-2001, 12:50 PM   #14
TomW
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Post

Just my $.02 worth, but when I think of leg sweeps in aikido, I think of droping infront of approaching uke and sweeping both of their legs from front ot back. We generally do this as an option in randori.

There is video of O'Sensei doing this in at least one of the aikinews tapes ("Takemusu aiki" or "Way of Harmony" I think).

Regards,
Tom Wharton
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Old 11-11-2001, 08:09 PM   #15
Mares
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Quote:
Originally posted by Johan Tibell
Saito Sensei teaches a leg sweep with the jo. In this leg sweep you sweep your opponent's leg when he moves forwards and haven't planted his foot firmly yet (although it can be done when his foot is planted firmly but will require a little bit of force). You can also sweep both the opponent's legs.

Best Regards,

Johan Tibell
Yes I belive that is correct. You just need to pull the leg forward and up so you only really lift his leg.

We also do a form of a leg sweep in kokyu nage techniques. It is a variation from the "standard" kokyu nage technique where you sweep the leg with your hand.
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Old 11-15-2001, 01:03 AM   #16
liam
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Quote:
Originally posted by Greg Jennings

Our dojo rarely does anything where we interact with uke with a foot off the ground. There are some examples, but that's not what I want to talk about.
Huh, very interesting Greg. I'd say in our Dojo most of our techniques are done with one foot always taking most of the weight. It is the basis for our weight-shifting power generation. In fact we're criticised if we are "double-weighted": with even weight on both feet.

The only times that we're double-weighted is when we're modelling other stances from Karate, Judo etc.

(As an aside:
Sometimes this one-footed technique is brought to extremes. In a one-footed version of shomenuchi ikkyo that we like to practice, while one foot is firmly connecting the ground to uke's downward strike -- the other foot is raised up ready to strike uke's knee.)

One of many examples where we use a foot sweep is when we do shihonage. In this case as we bring uke's torso/arm down we sweep the inner leg up. This is very similar to Judo's o-soto-gari, and lands uke on his head if you're not gentle about it .

I always thought that the principle of avoiding "double-weighting" was taught in all Aikido dojos! Maybe it's something more local to us...

Anyway thanks for your post Greg.

Regards from

Liam Reid
University of Western Australia Aikido
www.butokukai.org
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Old 11-15-2001, 07:40 AM   #17
ian
 
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Hi Liam,

I don't think I've ever heard of such explicit weighting onto one foot. Although we generally practise keeping more weight over the front foot, the weight is definately not settled on this foot (I would have thought this restricted the movement of this leg?).

Also, this may sound semantic, but "double-weightedness" is a term which I think originates from tai-chi, but it definately does not mean having weight distributed evenly over two feet. This is what a Tai-Chi 'master' said about it.

"Double weightedness is often misinterpreted as being where there is an even amount of weight on each leg. This is patently absurd as nearly every martial art I can think of has at least some movements where the weight is evenly distributed, rather ... it is an
absence of Yin and Yang. This arises when we are either unbalanced or tense and therefore cannot move easily." (Ching)

Ian
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Old 11-15-2001, 12:38 PM   #18
deepsoup
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Quote:
Originally posted by Greg Jennings


Hi Sean, Nice to meet you.

Actually what I'm describing looks very much like Gyakugamaeate as depicted in the animated GIF on that page.

We emphasize turning the hips a little more, but it's more or less the same technique.

The sukuinage shown in the first pic on the second page is what we call aiki otoshi. We do it a lot from ushiro ryokatadori and similar attacks.

There are two versions: the kind version and the not-so-kind version.

In the kind version, nage scoops uke at the knees, rototating uke's body around his center of mass and then drops uke straight down to the mat.

In the not-so-kind version, nage scoops uke as before but with a powerful twisting of the hips toward uke. It becomes a sort of koshinage. Uke invariably goes into a flat spin and lands flat on his back. Uke must let go, btw. Otherwise his head can be driven into the mat with his and nage's mass behind it.
Hi Greg, nice to meet you too.
(Sorry if it seemed I was ignoring you, I must've missed this post somehow.)

I thought of gyakugamaeate as more equivalent to sokumen iriminage than anything else. But that being said, I'm still pretty unfamiliar with traditional aikido terminology.

In addition to my Shodokan training, I also train at my local traditional dojo (Hi Paul ) when I can. (Not as often as I'd like.) Hopefully I will get a better grasp of the differences between iriminages, kokyunages, aikinages, etc.. as time goes on.

My instructor tells a story of when he was a relative beginner at Shodokan honbu. He asked Shihan which technique was irimi-nage. Shihan said "entering... all aikido is iriminage", a bit confused he asked Shihan, in that case, which technique was kokyunage, and Shihan replied, "breathing... yes, all aikido is kokyunage also."

Now that you mention it, I do remember practicing aikiotoshi, very much as you describe it, on one of my first visits to the 'traditional' dojo.

The sukui nage I had in mind was the one illustrated in 'Kodokan Judo', which is a bit closer to the Shodakan 'gedanate' than the ones on that webpage. (Especially some of the whackier "grab a handful of this" variations!) But 'gedanate' is sometimes done with a lot more hip, so that ukes feet are up in the air before their shoulders are on the floor. Its that action that made me think of it when I read your post originally. (Its also one of the few ukemi that still gives me a pang of anxiety!

Funnily enough my old judo sensei often taught sukui-nage from ushiro ryokatadori too. (He's one of those unusual judo sensei more interested in budo than in 'competition judo'. More 'sensei' than 'coach', if you see what I mean.)

When aiki-otoshi turns into a sort of koshinage as you describe, that reminds me of yet another judo technique: ushiro-goshi. (It may even be the same koshinage that you have in mind.) Ushirogoshi is usually used as a counter when uke attempts a more conventional hip-throw, but tori manages to move to the side a little, and sink his hips lower than uke's before his balance is broken.

Oddly enough, koshi-nage is something I've rarely seen in Shodokan aikido. I wonder if that might be because Tomiki sensei considered them to be more judo techniques than aikido.

Quote:
We don't have anything like the version where uke is grabbed by the crotch, although I expect that would be way effective I'll use it the next randori I'm in!

Well, good luck with it.
(But please dont tell your uke who pointed you to that website! )

Sean
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Last edited by deepsoup : 11-15-2001 at 01:25 PM.
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Old 11-15-2001, 02:57 PM   #19
Greg Jennings
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Quote:
Originally posted by liam

Huh, very interesting Greg. I'd say in our Dojo most of our techniques are done with one foot always taking most of the weight. It is the basis for our weight-shifting power generation. In fact we're criticised if we are "double-weighted": with even weight on both feet.

The only times that we're double-weighted is when we're modelling other stances from Karate, Judo etc.
We missed in the translation somewhere. We absolutely do utilize weight-shifting. In fact, it was the central lesson in the class I taught last night.

What I meant to convey was that we don't like to lift one foot far off the mat such that 100% of our weight is entirely on one foot for a substantial amount of time. For example, O-Soto Gari. Sweeps like that just aren't part of our curriculum.

We do have a few techniques where we briefly stand on one foot. E.g., The way we do kaitennage, we knee uke in the face as we step forward with the inside foot to throw him.

I'm familiar with the osotogari shihonage variation. We do it more as a check and a small pop than as an osotogari. If you'll let me take liberties with judo terminology, I'd call it ushiro uchimata shihonage.

Our standard variation of shihonage doesn't give us an opportunity to do this short of thing. It's a last resort when something has gone wrong.

Here is a pic of me about to get dropped on my head: http://24.12.212.64/taijutsu_9.html in shihonage.

Regards,

Greg Jennings
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Old 11-21-2001, 07:09 AM   #20
ian
 
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Cheers for the replies. Its always easier to explain Aikido when you can see it on the mat!

Ian
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Old 11-21-2001, 10:32 AM   #21
Abasan
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Nice pics greg, I've been trying to take pictures of some of the aikido moves in my dojo so that I can put them in our website. But timing and angle is always off. any tips?

Was wondering about that nikyo pic though. It seems that val's second hand grips uke close to the wrist. How do you control uke's elbow so that it remains at 90 degrees in that position? we usually do it by gathering uke's forearms inwards. and nage's second hand really controls the whole forearm instead of just gripping the wrist.

Draw strength from stillness. Learn to act without acting. And never underestimate a samurai cat.
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Old 11-24-2001, 09:16 PM   #22
Greg Jennings
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Quote:
Originally posted by Abasan
Nice pics greg, I've been trying to take pictures of some of the aikido moves in my dojo so that I can put them in our website. But timing and angle is always off. any tips?
Sure. There are basically three ways:

1. Use a camera. Go full manual so that when you "pull the trigger", you get the picture that you see, not one that happens 1/2 second later. You'll have to get the lighting, flash, aperture, shutter speed, film, etc. correct.

2. Use a digital camera in MPEG mode. Start it before the technique and run it through to the end. Use Photoshop/similar to extract the frames you want as a still pic. As a bonus, you get a nice MPEG.

3. Variations on #2 using a video camera and the appropriate hw and sw.

Quote:

Was wondering about that nikyo pic though. It seems that val's second hand grips uke close to the wrist. How do you control uke's elbow so that it remains at 90 degrees in that position? we usually do it by gathering uke's forearms inwards. and nage's second hand really controls the whole forearm instead of just gripping the wrist.
I haven't seen the picture in a while. She might well have it out of place. I was hamming it up with her to help her motivation.

We view techniques as being like those interactive stories that have multiple endings based on choices made by the viewer. Nikyo is one of the endings; it's one of the kinder endings (as painful as it can be at times). If uke leaves the arm straight/stiff, the ending turns into a rokkyo/hijishime which is much more apt to cause a disabling injury.

I've often thought that nikyo is a response to uke escaping the rokkyo.

Best Regards,

Greg Jennings
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Old 11-26-2001, 04:50 AM   #23
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Thanks for the tips Greg, unfortunately I'm using an automatic. So option 1's out, but hopefully in the near future option 2 or 3 would be a possibility. Till then, the site would just have to take the crappy pictures as I take them!

As for rokkyo, interesting that you mentioned that. At our dojo, we don't learn any techniques beyond gokyo. Or perhaps we do for one or two of them, but we don't have names for 'em. I was wondering if this is true for most dojos... or is it just the Aikikai?

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Old 11-26-2001, 10:35 AM   #24
ian
 
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Nope, I've done rokyo within Aikikai. However its often not taught alot due to the pressure on the elbow. However it is definately a technique to 'get to grips' with 'cos it is extremely useful! Its used in the prison service over in the UK 'cos its easy to pin someone much bigger than yourself with it.


Ian
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Old 11-26-2001, 11:31 AM   #25
wildaikido
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Hello again all it has been a while.
It is good to come back to an interesting topic.
Three things
1) I study Yoseikan Aikido and we have a number of judoish reaps and sweeps. I have found that they are very useful but they are also very much a beginner's technique. One of the senseis always quotes 70-30, that is 70% kuzushi (unbalancing) and 30% reaping. So if you have a good movement and good timing (like Osensei) then there is never actually a need to use your foot. To explain better we have O Soto Gari, which is in every way like Kata Otoshi except instead of dropping our weight to 'throw' uke back we reap instead. (If you don't know Kata Otoshi see Roy Suenaka's Complete Aikido pg246. A good book)

2) About Rokyu, or Hiji Kudaki as we call it. It is extremely effective and the school uses it more than Robuse (Ikkyo for most of you). However it does not always work on bigger people, my sensei told us a story when he was training under his sensei he got one of the other guys, a big Yugoslavian guy named Ivan (I think) who was a brick s**t house 6'4" 100+ kg, in the lock and he just stood up and my sensei was there in the air hanging over his arm.

3) Sean where in Sheffield do you train, if you don't mind me asking

Last edited by wildaikido : 11-26-2001 at 11:34 AM.

Graham Wild
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