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Old 07-14-2007, 03:04 PM   #76
L. Camejo
 
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Re: Aikido Techniques are Weapons Techniques

Quote:
Michael Riehle wrote: View Post
"If you are facing a person with a sword, get used to the idea that you are going to get cut. If you can live with that, you have a chance of surviving. If getting cut is a problem for you, you're going to die."

I've thought about this a lot over the years when practicing weapons defenses. I'm by no means an expert in this area, but I believe he has a point.
Good point. If one is fearful of dying in the face of an attacker then the mind becomes confused, locked, fettered and unclear, which seriously helps decrease ones odds of survival.

Having done the exercise you quoted above, things worked quite well when I allowed the Kendoka to come at me as if he were seriously trying to kill me. When he went into the cautious, "fight mindset", "sport Kendo" mindset it was more difficult to execute waza (not impossible though) since he gave much less energy to work with, which meant I had to generate my own.

Your point is very important. Many who attempt to apply Aikido under resistance start with a "fight", contest or "struggle" mindset, which is exactly the opposite of Aikido's core tactical approach. When one sees the situation as life and death, regardless of whether faced with a weapon or not, ones entire approach to the engagement changes. It is this approach that creates fertile ground for Aikido waza to operate against real threats. There must be Mushin, else Aikido simply won't work very well, as this is a foundational element. This goes back to the thought on assumptions as well, all of these things help in clouding the mind. A good example was seen in the "Aiki-Boxing" thread where the Aikidoka started to "fight" and "struggle" (which led to more half-baked waza and Judo type moves) with the attacker as soon as he donned protective gloves. When he went empty handed the Aiki waza started to flow.

I maintain what I said earlier in this thread, the method works. The real question is, how many are willing to do what is necessary to get there? If one is "fighting" or intending to struggle with an assailant, one is not doing Aikido.

Gambatte.

--Mushin Mugamae - No Mind No Posture. He who is possessed by nothing possesses everything.--
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Old 07-14-2007, 03:33 PM   #77
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Re: Aikido Techniques are Weapons Techniques

Quote:
Ryan Tellez wrote: View Post
Im not trying to come off like i know everything. Thats more of a question, i mean wouldnt that work though.
Try "catching" the hand of someone punching or stabbing with a rubber knife and not cooperating when you try a technique and you'll find the answer imho.

Experience speaks volumes where words can only do so much.

LC

--Mushin Mugamae - No Mind No Posture. He who is possessed by nothing possesses everything.--
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Old 07-14-2007, 04:20 PM   #78
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Re: Aikido Techniques are Weapons Techniques

"Good point. If one is fearful of dying in the face of an attacker then the mind becomes confused, locked, fettered and unclear, which seriously helps decrease ones odds of survival."

If one is fearful of dying in the face of anything the minds becomes all of the things you said.

Jennifer Paige Smith
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Old 07-15-2007, 12:28 AM   #79
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Re: Aikido Techniques are Weapons Techniques

In order to transcend the struggle, you must enter into the struggle with an open mind. Resist this, and you are just struggling with yourself.

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Old 07-15-2007, 07:10 AM   #80
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Re: Aikido Techniques are Weapons Techniques

I like to read LarryC' s post the most. His ideas of aikido are quite similar to mine, but he is better at expressing his thoughts in writing.

Boon.

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Old 07-15-2007, 09:02 AM   #81
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Re: Aikido Techniques are Weapons Techniques

Quote:
Larry Camejo wrote: View Post
Try "catching" the hand of someone punching or stabbing with a rubber knife and not cooperating when you try a technique and you'll find the answer imho.

Experience speaks volumes where words can only do so much.

LC
Perhahs a few words coming from experience would be helpful:
Some of the answers that you will find are limited to the lengths that one, as an individual, is wiling to go when executing a technique or wrestling with another human being. It should always be considered that causing death is an option, if not for you, than for them. And the games that people play to replicate this can fall short of the reality of a moment where a life is about to be gained or lost. No one is there to say "yamae" and no tap out will do.

Jennifer Paige Smith
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Old 07-15-2007, 12:02 PM   #82
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Re: Aikido Techniques are Weapons Techniques

Quote:
Jennifer Smith wrote: View Post
Perhahs a few words coming from experience would be helpful:
Some of the answers that you will find are limited to the lengths that one, as an individual, is wiling to go when executing a technique or wrestling with another human being. It should always be considered that causing death is an option, if not for you, than for them. And the games that people play to replicate this can fall short of the reality of a moment where a life is about to be gained or lost. No one is there to say "yamae" and no tap out will do.
I couldn't agree more.

I think practices where people are actually trying to work against you are so much closer to how it would be if someone was trying to take your life. Uke/Nage training is all fine and good. But it never gives you that feeling that you will get when someone is actually working against you, trying to harm you, and doing everything in their power to keep you from achieving your objective (peace).

Nice post Jennifer!

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Old 07-16-2007, 07:57 AM   #83
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Re: Aikido Techniques are Weapons Techniques

In response to Ryan: I completely agree with you that, theoretically, it should work just fine. (At least, from a certain beginning theoretical perspective.) Empirical reality is more complicated. This is the conflict that, at least for me, is a key motivator behind looking into theories about aikido's development and fighting rationale.
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Old 07-16-2007, 09:14 AM   #84
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Re: Aikido Techniques are Weapons Techniques

This thread has been quite an interesting read! There's not much I can really add other than my observations concerning what the empty-handed sword art called Aikido has taught me:

We have considerable weapons training (ken, jo, tanto) in my dojo. As I see it, swordwork teaches us one of the most fundamental, practical and effective techniques of Aikido: maintaining proper ma-ai. There's nothing like a vigorously swinging bokken nearly missing your head to keep you mindful of tactical spacing & distance! Ditto with the jo!

From a "real world" self-defense perspective, and not the confines of the dojo or the enclosed sparring ring of two willing combatants, being able to stay just out of your unarmed attacker's effective range is the best defense. Good ma-ai can be accomplished ether conventionally (i.e. utilizing open terrain/the whole street to your advantage) or "improvised" ma-ai (e.g. utilizing obstacles such as tables, desks, parked cars, etc.). That coupled with strong, quick tai sabaki. The two skills are indespensible and fundamental to Aikido.

Maintaining ma-ai and solid tai sabaki works, I've used them effectively in real life situations, as have a lot of Aikidoka...and I'm nobody special...just average, and my Aikido is only average for my rank...not even of Dan-grade. Does it fit the criteria of machismo or comicbook notions of honor? Not nearly! However, it's smart & effective self-defense.

Last edited by Dewey : 07-16-2007 at 09:19 AM.
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Old 07-17-2007, 06:08 AM   #85
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Re: Aikido Techniques are Weapons Techniques

Ryan
Conceptually speaking you are dead right, however I think the issue is not so much in the what to do but more in the getting into position to do it safely.

An that really depend of the weapon and the correlation you can make with open hand

If you look at my profile you will see a picture of a Sweetnam 12 foot lunges. He advocates no moving the foot that is at the back when the lunge is finished.
For that period rapier that is a very sound way of doing thing.
It is a very long thrusting sword with little chopping abilities and the hand is encased in a skeletal guard (and that protect the forearms from slice cut). I.e. we are maximizing thrusting and keeping it safe.
It is not so good to do that with a proper cut and thrust sword, we are in a position where cutting our arms is relatively easy and there is not that much we can do about it.

Equally it is not so good against an open hand style that strike and throw
But equally there is a punch delivered in similar fashion (not that low of a stance) in 18th century bare knuckle boxing (where all throws or body grabs are prohibited).

To gack to your comment, if you are thrusting and keep you back leg fixed, you are "overcomitting" the thrust over cutting and moving. You do not need to be that low, you just need to have your shoulder significantly passed over the hips.

All that to say, that in that king of thrust or punch, the one that is punching is giving the opponent the position do use a technique in safety.
And this is one of the main reasons what MMA people fined thrust punch so abhorrent, but you can jab or cross in the way.
Personally I think there time and places where using that type of punch/thrust is very pertinent but that is certainly not when you try to break the distance.

If our uke strike within his own space (keeping the shoulders aligned with the hips) and we grab his wrist using tenchin, he will be able to resist us at will and it is not that surprising.
After all grabbing is wrist when he is on posture is exactly what kote dori is from ai hanmi and goyku hanmi.

phil

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Old 07-17-2007, 04:47 PM   #86
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Re: Aikido Techniques are Weapons Techniques

Quote:
Jennifer Smith wrote: View Post
Perhahs a few words coming from experience would be helpful:
Some of the answers that you will find are limited to the lengths that one, as an individual, is wiling to go when executing a technique or wrestling with another human being. It should always be considered that causing death is an option, if not for you, than for them. And the games that people play to replicate this can fall short of the reality of a moment where a life is about to be gained or lost. No one is there to say "yamae" and no tap out will do.
Quite true. Of course if one is incapable of achieving desired result while playing, then the likelihood of doing so when life is on the line is often more remote. It comes down to the individual. Getting back to my last post - if you can't "catch" the knife hand of someone who is not trying to kill you then the likelihood of catching it when someone is trying to kill you is a lot lower imho. Unless of course you plan on catching it with some other part of the body than the hand.

Brian: My experiences have been quite similar to yours. Ma ai and tai sabaki are quite critical elements when getting hit even once can be the fight ender (they have saved my life at least once). This to me is important when we look at how Aikido operates as a method of dealing with serious, focused physical conflict. Good to have another p.o.v. from someone who has actually used it.

Boon: You're biased, you were once a Shodothug.

LC

--Mushin Mugamae - No Mind No Posture. He who is possessed by nothing possesses everything.--
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Old 07-17-2007, 10:30 PM   #87
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Re: Aikido Techniques are Weapons Techniques

Another video clip, this time of Nishio Sensei himself:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D8uJhC5wZug
Notice the similarity of kaiten-nage, executed with empty hand and with weapon (ken-no-tebiki).
In a later part of the clip, note how the movement of drawing the sword becomes an entry for udekime-nage, and how what looks like a throw is really an atemi.
Again illustrating how weapons are an extension of the body and that there is a union of principles (riai) between the use of weapons and taijutsu.

Inocencio Maramba, MD, MSc
Dangayan Singkaw Aikido Shinzui
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Old 07-22-2007, 10:59 AM   #88
jennifer paige smith
 
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Re: Aikido Techniques are Weapons Techniques

[quote=Larry Camejo;183955]Quite true. Of course if one is incapable of achieving desired result while playing, then the likelihood of doing so when life is on the line is often more remote. It comes down to the individual.

Mostly, one is incapable of achieving an enviroment that replicates your life being on the line. Everything is much more random and even good technique might not be your 'savior'. It might be a mindful observation of a car or a streetlight casting a shadow that helps you out, a ridiculous scream or a wandering idiot who you call out to like a friend that helps.Things you cannot replicate or provide. Point is, you don't know and a lifetime of training is still no guarantee. But train anyway. It comes down to the moment.

Jennifer Paige Smith
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Old 07-22-2007, 11:59 AM   #89
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Re: Aikido Techniques are Weapons Techniques

Quote:
Jennifer Smith wrote: View Post
Mostly, one is incapable of achieving an enviroment that replicates your life being on the line. Everything is much more random and even good technique might not be your 'savior'. It might be a mindful observation of a car or a streetlight casting a shadow that helps you out, a ridiculous scream or a wandering idiot who you call out to like a friend that helps.Things you cannot replicate or provide. Point is, you don't know and a lifetime of training is still no guarantee. But train anyway. It comes down to the moment.
Great Post Sista Soul Jah Sufer!!!

I am still alive today because of two main material constructs which cannot be fully replicated no matter hard and realistic my training....

Seconds and Centimeters.

Training may have helped a tiny bit but not much.

Aikido Training can only help change me and guide me to embrace my powerlessness over much of the physical world. People... Places... and Things. The best I can hope for is an authentic connection with the "moment" and this "connection" has resolved every 'pontential" conflict I have ever had... Emotional... Spiritual... and Physical. When I am not connected... I give into fear.... and then anger... I have only hurt myself and the "other" I have chosen to "fight"

Sorry Folks if I sound like a Malibu Hippy Punk Red Neck Liberal Zen Catholic Nut Job Surf Guy...



Practice Hard.

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Old 07-22-2007, 12:03 PM   #90
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Re: Aikido Techniques are Weapons Techniques

Nice post Jennifer.

For me, training is not about replicating some crazy potential situation that MIGHT arise in my future. It’s More about being honest to the practice that I'm partaking in.

The development of ones character is dependent on honesty and participation in reality. If you sit around all day playing fantasy master martial artist, you can never develop your true self, only your fantasy alter ego. Training hard and honesty is the most important part of the martial arts. Asking why we do the things we do, and if they are actually applicable to real life confrontation, simply keeps us on track.

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Old 07-22-2007, 05:43 PM   #91
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Re: Aikido Techniques are Weapons Techniques

Quote:
Everything is much more random and even good technique might not be your 'savior'.
It should never be. Are folks still relating ability to save one's own life when it is on the line to who is the better at technique?

Wow. I guess that's my queue...

Quote:
When I am not connected... I give into fear.... and then anger... I have only hurt myself and the "other" I have chosen to "fight"
Well said.

Quote:
If you sit around all day playing fantasy master martial artist, you can never develop your true self, only your fantasy alter ego.
Chris: Where did you get this impression from the thread?

Dozo.

Last edited by L. Camejo : 07-22-2007 at 05:45 PM.

--Mushin Mugamae - No Mind No Posture. He who is possessed by nothing possesses everything.--
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Old 07-22-2007, 10:07 PM   #92
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Re: Aikido Techniques are Weapons Techniques

Quote:
Larry Camejo wrote: View Post

Chris: Where did you get this impression from the thread?

Dozo.
It's a general comment on those who are more interested in wearing fancy skirts and being called sensei, then actually training to develop your self.

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Old 07-22-2007, 10:30 PM   #93
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Re: Aikido Techniques are Weapons Techniques

Quote:
Chris Hein wrote: View Post
It's a general comment on those who are more interested in wearing fancy skirts and being called sensei, then actually training to develop your self.
I see your point then.

--Mushin Mugamae - No Mind No Posture. He who is possessed by nothing possesses everything.--
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Old 07-23-2007, 12:35 PM   #94
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Re: Aikido Techniques are Weapons Techniques

Quote:
Chris Hein wrote: View Post
It's a general comment on those who are more interested in wearing fancy skirts and being called sensei, then actually training to develop your self.
Why did you feel the need to express your general opinion on this thread? What was the context? What does it add to the discussion?

Just Curious since I used to rant about this kind of thing all the time.

William Hazen
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Old 07-23-2007, 10:40 PM   #95
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Re: Aikido Techniques are Weapons Techniques

post #86 and post #88.

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Old 07-24-2007, 08:48 AM   #96
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Re: Aikido Techniques are Weapons Techniques

With or without a weapon, the technique should work in the same way.

http://www.shinkikan.com

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Old 07-24-2007, 09:12 AM   #97
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Re: Aikido Techniques are Weapons Techniques

Quote:
Erik Calderon wrote: View Post
With or without a weapon, the technique should work in the same way.
You know, I fundamentally agree with this statement insofar as it goes.

But...

The consequences of a mistake are radically different. I've blown an entry and wound up taking a punch to my body and then followed that up by tossing my attacker (okay, I'll admit it, sometimes I threw them a bit hard when their punch actually landed ). If the punch had been a knife, I might have been dead and I certainly would have been seriously injured.

Although, it occurs to me that such incidents were in training. The few of times when I was facing a serious challenge no punches (or kicks) ever landed. Still, that might have been dumb luck.

So, yeah, the techniques work the same, but you just don't have the margin for error against weapons. Hey, maybe that's a good reason to train against weapons?

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Old 07-24-2007, 09:22 AM   #98
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Re: Aikido Techniques are Weapons Techniques

Quote:
Erik Calderon wrote: View Post
With or without a weapon, the technique should work in the same way.

http://www.shinkikan.com
What should happen and what does happen can be the differance between life and death...Hard Practice...Luck...Focus...Fear...Resolve...and Martial Spirit...

Like a Fellow Aikidoka has already suggested and I have posted myself... You don't get a second chance to get it right in a fight when edged weapons are involved.

William Hazen
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Old 07-24-2007, 09:56 AM   #99
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Re: Aikido Techniques are Weapons Techniques

Quote:
Erik Calderon wrote: View Post
With or without a weapon, the technique should work in the same way.

http://www.shinkikan.com
Well beyond the more serious ramifications of what will happen if you make a mistake, there are many other fundamental differences.

While you are basically correct, the technique should be the same, with or with out a weapon, whether the technique will ever arise or not is another thing. Yes a shihonage is going to be a shihonage, whether you have a weapon I have a weapon, or neither have a weapon. But will you have the opportunity to use a shihonage?

In unarmed fighting the fighter can choose to go to the core of your body in order to control you. This is the superior way to control a person; by going directly to their core. Things like Body locks, waist locks and headlocks are superior positions. The reason they are superior is because they are a quicker and more direct means to control what you need to control in a physical confrontation; the core.

These means of control being superior, if you attempt Aikido techniques while unarmed against a trained unarmed fighter, they will likely win. They will be better from the superior position (we don't train said techniques).

So what changes all of this? A weapon. If someone tries these superior unarmed techniques (body/headlocks) on you while you are armed, they will be neglecting your limbs. If you are armed, they will lose (weapon will win even in a bad position). Now if they take your limbs into account and try to hold them...we have shihonage; or any of the other techniques of Aikido.

Last edited by ChrisHein : 07-24-2007 at 10:02 AM.

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Old 07-24-2007, 10:55 AM   #100
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Re: Aikido Techniques are Weapons Techniques

Good post Chris. One question...if someone can extend the power of their body out to their own limbs...could that change the nature of your equation?

Best,
Ron

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