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Old 08-21-2007, 04:38 AM   #201
Aristeia
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Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

Sankyo from under mount?

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
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Old 08-21-2007, 09:01 AM   #202
Bill Brownlow
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Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

Quote:
Keith Lee wrote: View Post

The only thing that approaches it is in BJJ tourneys where there is usually a "Masters" or "Executive" division for people 40 or 50+. And it's there because people know that even though someone might be a brown belt in BJJ at 55, they can't compete with a brown belt at 25, just based on sheer physicality. Whereas in Aikido, somehow the older you are...the better you get at it?
I must object! Having just "graduated" to the Executive division, this attitude just grinds my gears. If I didn't think I had the physicality to compete, I wouldn't have entered the tourney in the first place.

Its not that I mind that there are age divisions per se, but its the way tourneys are usually run: Say if there are not enough belts in the executive 180lb division, that division gets combined with the executive 195lb division. I would rather compete with the 25 yr old 180lb division. IMO the age/physicality advantage of the younger guy is less than the weight advantage of the heavier guy.

Or maybe I'm just in great shape for an old fart.

Bill
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Old 08-21-2007, 09:16 AM   #203
donplummer
 
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Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

a rabid pitbull would seem to work, they enjoy ground-fighting as well...perhaps Michael Vick would sponsor the exhibition match??? are any of the Gracies available???

"of all the things I've lost, I ,miss my mind the most..."-mushin-
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Old 08-21-2007, 10:12 AM   #204
DonMagee
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Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

Quote:
Bill Brownlow wrote: View Post
I must object! Having just "graduated" to the Executive division, this attitude just grinds my gears. If I didn't think I had the physicality to compete, I wouldn't have entered the tourney in the first place.

Its not that I mind that there are age divisions per se, but its the way tourneys are usually run: Say if there are not enough belts in the executive 180lb division, that division gets combined with the executive 195lb division. I would rather compete with the 25 yr old 180lb division. IMO the age/physicality advantage of the younger guy is less than the weight advantage of the heavier guy.

Or maybe I'm just in great shape for an old fart.

Bill
Most of the guys I know compete in the normal adult and the masters or executive divisions if they are old enough.

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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Old 08-31-2007, 06:31 AM   #205
Daniel Ranger-Holt
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Unhappy Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

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Ahmed Altalib wrote: View Post
I have lately been coming across much boasting by the Brazilian Jujitsu practioners about their grappling techniques and claims that no martial art would stand a chance once you are on the ground how ever there must be more than one Aikido technique which if applied in that second the Brazilian Jujitsu fighter reaches with his hand to grab would neutralize the whole attack so what is it in your opinion?
Good read this topic. I would think if you're trying to neautrilize a fairly new BJJ grappler (2-3 years) and are fairly new (2-3 years) in aikido, you wouldnt have a hope. I don't question a 10 yr (for example) black belt aikidoka would be able to fend them off and possibly do something, but the level Ahmed (i assume) is at, its very very frustrating and in a way, pointless trying to think of what do.

I love Aikido and only know Aikido, i am thinking of cross training BJJ. As someone pointed out Aikido isn't live enough to compete with BJJ if you're talking equal settings for both art, (same amount of training, same level of student etc) the BJJ would alway sbe superior, this is how i see it. I know people disagree but this is my opinion even with me being someone probably bias toward Aikido. I am truthful about it.

No one will ever be the ultimate self defence machine, who would want to be, what kind of paranoid existance would that be, but having the two essentials (as i see it) standing, and on the ground covered makes sense if you are studying Aikido PURELY for defence. Which i am, and didnt know at the time i would need to study more for PURE self defence. Someone attacking me.

I was told Aikido would be all i need for basic self defence, but its apparent now some groundwork would be needed, it seems obvious to me. Im not speaking about the exception dojos where groundwork grappling is taught, fine, i would have gone to them had i have known over a year ago when i started Aikido, but i was under the impression Aikido was all i would need. My own fault, didnt research enough and just went to my dojo. Reverse time i would have loved to have been a year and a few month as a BJJ and Aikido.

If i find a BJJ near me i can go to without conflicting my Aikido training (when i have the cash) i seriously think i would do it. For what i need (basic self defence without trying to be an expert in both arts) it seems essential. But you would HAVE to have Aikido as well in my humble opinion.

Aikido just takes so long to learn to be able to use it effectively, you would have to study something else as well. This is what i would have suggested to someone like me looking for Aikido as pure self defence. This is why i see a lot of people appear at our dojo and not come back after 7 or so months. They enjoy Aikido but see the long stretch and talk of 20 year techniques etc...

Sigh

Last edited by Daniel Ranger-Holt : 08-31-2007 at 06:34 AM. Reason: better wording
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Old 09-02-2007, 11:29 AM   #206
Jeremy Lambert
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Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

Don't attack him
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Old 09-02-2007, 12:20 PM   #207
wildaikido
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Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

There are way to many pages for me to get through (I did try) so I will just add to the end, and people can refer me back

If you look at all the "(martial art of choice) vs. BJJ" on youtube, there is one thing that the Gracie's (which are in the majority of them) have that the other martial artist do not have. That is spirit. To be effective in a martial encounter with Aikido you must have the superior spirit. All of those guys on youtube have no chance because their spirit is nothing compared to that of their opponent.

The important thing with Aikido is you must "defeat" your opponent at the moment of contact. With mindful, consistent, and hard training, specifically randori, you develop awareness. Your awareness and the basic principles of Aikido, such as protect your centre (line), you will be aware of the attack, and you can neutralise it at the moment of contact.

If you look at these youtube videos you see the people spar as they train. The other martial artists are not used to the rushed clash and frenzy of the fight. The BJJ guys train this so they can handle it.

Fact:
You fight how you train!

The wonderful thing about someone who does a grappling art is they want to grab you. So in theory GOOD Aikido should be good to defend against someone who wants to grapple you. The fact is ALL the early greats (Mochizuki, Shioda, Tomiki, etc) were judoka, and old school judoka, so their ground fighting was identical to BJJ (for those who don't believe this, look at material from Mifune and Kawaishi). All of these men were students of O'Sensei because they could not beat him (The story of Shioda comes to mind). They were proficient grapplers and could not take down O'Sensei. So GOOD Aikido will enable you to defend against a BJJer.

As for techniques, according to the source (O'Sensei), "In combat Aikido is 90% atemi." So at the moment of contact a properly placed atemi should be sufficient. This may sound naive, but I am not talking about just trying to hit the person, remember I said you must have mindful consistent hard training to develop awareness. With superior awareness, you can defeat any opponent. You remember all those stories about O'Sensei and his spider sense, awareness! His ability to use "simple" techniques to defeat all opponents, including swordsmen, awareness! If you are aware of how your opponent will attack you, you can do anything you want to defeat him. A BJJ is someone who won't easily tire, and will keep coming, so it has to be lights out. A solid strike to the side of the chin is the proven way to knock someone out with atemi. The rapid turn of the head as a result of the blow, causes the vertebrae in the neck to separate slightly. The result of this is an emergency shut down of the brain to make sure damage does not occur (the scene from Snatch with Brad Pit and the big bare knuckle boxer at the caravan park comes to mind).

Alternatively you could do what we do in Yoseikan, and train in grappling. Personal, I like the fact that O'Sensei didn't have to do this, so this is what I want to achieve.

Regards,

Graham Wild
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Old 09-02-2007, 12:44 PM   #208
Paul Sanderson-Cimino
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Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

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Graham Wild wrote: View Post
there is one thing that the Gracie's (which are in the majority of them) have that the other martial artist do not have. That is spirit.
Yeah, I'm thinking they had a little more than "spirit". Like "better technique" and possibly "superior training."

Quote:
Graham Wild wrote: View Post
The wonderful thing about someone who does a grappling art is they want to grab you. So in theory GOOD Aikido should be good to defend against someone who wants to grapple you.
That doesn't follow. Aikido grabs are very different from BJJ or wrestling takedowns. (See the "Aikido is about weapons" discussions.)

Quote:
Graham Wild wrote: View Post
The fact is ALL the early greats (Mochizuki, Shioda, Tomiki, etc) were judoka, and old school judoka, so their ground fighting was identical to BJJ (for those who don't believe this, look at material from Mifune and Kawaishi).
Well, since BJJ is basically Kodokan newaza expanded and further-developed, I guess this is more or less accurate. More or less.

Quote:
Graham Wild wrote: View Post
All of these men were students of O'Sensei because they could not beat him (The story of Shioda comes to mind). They were proficient grapplers and could not take down O'Sensei. So GOOD Aikido will enable you to defend against a BJJer.
O-Sensei's training was a lot broader than modern aikido. In fact, he didn't train in modern aikido. He did judo, sumo, and a variety of other things that included grappling.

Quote:
Graham Wild wrote: View Post
You remember all those stories about O'Sensei and his spider sense, awareness!
This was not developed from his aiki studies. Rather, in Manchuria, he was on one occasion bitten by a radioactive spider.

Quote:
Graham Wild wrote: View Post
A BJJ is someone who won't easily tire, and will keep coming, so it has to be lights out. A solid strike to the side of the chin is the proven way to knock someone out with atemi.
Yes, it is. Example:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=jUCBOWTazHE

As an aside...wow. Just found this clip on YouTube:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=TPxkEkGUeZU

That does look familiar, I admit. (I don't mean that as a serious argument.) Anyway, though, the arts that focus on fast knockouts via blows to the chin are ones like boxing and Muay Thai.

Quote:
Graham Wild wrote: View Post
Alternatively you could do what we do in Yoseikan, and train in grappling. Personal, I like the fact that O'Sensei didn't have to do this, so this is what I want to achieve.
But...he did train in grappling!
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Old 09-02-2007, 02:09 PM   #209
wildaikido
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Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

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Paul Sanderson-Cimino wrote: View Post
Yeah, I'm thinking they had a little more than "spirit". Like "better technique" and possibly "superior training."
It does not matter how good your techniques are, if you have no spirit you can do nothing. Some would say without spirit there is no life, some.

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Paul Sanderson-Cimino wrote: View Post
That doesn't follow. Aikido grabs are very different from BJJ or wrestling takedowns. (See the "Aikido is about weapons" discussions.)
Not the ones that would have been used by trained judoka like Mochizuki and Shioda to attack O'Sensei, and not the ones we use in Yoseikan. If you are limiting the technical scope of Aikido, it is not Aikido.

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Paul Sanderson-Cimino wrote: View Post
Well, since BJJ is basically Kodokan newaza expanded and further-developed, I guess this is more or less accurate. More or less.
I would agree that it is a little more developed then some judo Ne-Waza, but just from the point of view of self defence. Look at Kosen Judo (high school Judo) were the majority of training is done on the ground for safety purposes.

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Paul Sanderson-Cimino wrote: View Post
O-Sensei's training was a lot broader than modern aikido. In fact, he didn't train in modern aikido. He did judo, sumo, and a variety of other things that included grappling.
But the point is he defeated his attackers with the "simple" techniques he was learning from Daito Ryu. This is how Mochizuki Kancho described it! O'Sensei would learn from Takeda, who would only teach him. Then when he left, O'Sensei would call the others back into the dojo and basically say "attack me." From here O'Sensei would use what he had just learnt to defeat all of them. Then when he was finished, the students got a chance to try against each other. No teaching, just training!

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Paul Sanderson-Cimino wrote: View Post
This was not developed from his aiki studies. Rather, in Manchuria, he was on one occasion bitten by a radioactive spider.
My joke is still intended to contain the serious message. Many students who attacked O'Sensei state that it was like he knew how they would attack. One even tried to deceive him by changing his attack, and O'Sensei said, "that won't work either," before he had even attacked. If a man like Mochizuki Kancho recalls stories like this, I can do nothing but believe they were true.

Quote:
Paul Sanderson-Cimino wrote: View Post
Yes, it is. Example:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=jUCBOWTazHE

As an aside...wow. Just found this clip on YouTube:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=TPxkEkGUeZU

That does look familiar, I admit. (I don't mean that as a serious argument.) Anyway, though, the arts that focus on fast knockouts via blows to the chin are ones like boxing and Muay Thai.
I study Aikido and I study "fast knockouts via blows to the chin." Again limiting the techniques of Aikido means that it is not Aikido

Quote:
Paul Sanderson-Cimino wrote: View Post
But...he did train in grappling!
His small amount of training is both Sumo and Judo would have contributed to his overall martial development, but this does not mean he was a grappler. Takeda only studied Daito Ryu (or whatever it was called back then). Takeda easily overcame O'Sensei when he was challenged him.

Regards,

Last edited by wildaikido : 09-02-2007 at 02:16 PM.

Graham Wild
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Old 09-02-2007, 11:33 PM   #210
Aristeia
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Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

mostly - what Paul said.

Graham - I'm intrigued by your comments that if you limit the techniques of Aikido it's not Aikido? Are you suggesting that everything is Aikido? In which case the term becomes meaningless neh?

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
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Old 09-03-2007, 02:41 AM   #211
wildaikido
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Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

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Graham - I'm intrigued by your comments that if you limit the techniques of Aikido it's not Aikido? Are you suggesting that everything is Aikido? In which case the term becomes meaningless neh?
Aikido is an art of principles, not techniques. There is a story of O'Sensei breaking the arm of a karateka, this is very different to the view you have when you look at some training. The method O'Sensei used to develop Aikido was to take the techniques he learnt from Takeda and made them Jiyu Waza. From here O'Sensei developed the principles that make up Aikido, that is what was required for him to defeat hi attackers.

Ai (Harmony)
Ki (energy)
Kokyo (breath)
Kokoro (spirit)
Awase (blending)
Kuzushi (unbalance)
Irimi (enter)
Tenkan (turn)
Atemi (hit the body)
Kiai (spirit shout)
Hitoemi (avoiding the attack)
Enten Jizai (Attack and defence as one)
Maai (spatial awareness) O'Sensei used to talk about the old tradition of Mizu Uchi or Suigetsu (moon and water)

The list is longer, but not limitless. Implement these principles and the technique is unimportant, master them, and awareness, and there is no need for technique!

So if your attacker is a BJJer who is going to take you down and choke you out, harmonising and blending will mean you knock him out. I prefer open hand strikes to the head. A well placed gyaku yokomen to the chin will achieve the same result as a hook. Other wise I suggest an elbow. This is how we train our irimi for kote gaeshi, elbow to the chin, body to the elbow.

The technical syllabus for Aikido did not appear until after O'Sensei's death in 1972. That is why in O'Sensei's terms you have Ikkyo (first teaching), Nikyo (second teaching) etc. I just wish someone could tell me what we were supposed to learn in each of these teachings. Specifically, with the subtle difference between the omote versions of each "techniques". Maybe one day with enough kenkyu I will figure it out.

Regards,

Graham Wild
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Old 09-03-2007, 08:28 AM   #212
DonMagee
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Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

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It does not matter how good your techniques are, if you have no spirit you can do nothing. Some would say without spirit there is no life, some.

Not the ones that would have been used by trained judoka like Mochizuki and Shioda to attack O'Sensei, and not the ones we use in Yoseikan. If you are limiting the technical scope of Aikido, it is not Aikido.

I would agree that it is a little more developed then some judo Ne-Waza, but just from the point of view of self defence. Look at Kosen Judo (high school Judo) were the majority of training is done on the ground for safety purposes.

But the point is he defeated his attackers with the "simple" techniques he was learning from Daito Ryu. This is how Mochizuki Kancho described it! O'Sensei would learn from Takeda, who would only teach him. Then when he left, O'Sensei would call the others back into the dojo and basically say "attack me." From here O'Sensei would use what he had just learnt to defeat all of them. Then when he was finished, the students got a chance to try against each other. No teaching, just training!

My joke is still intended to contain the serious message. Many students who attacked O'Sensei state that it was like he knew how they would attack. One even tried to deceive him by changing his attack, and O'Sensei said, "that won't work either," before he had even attacked. If a man like Mochizuki Kancho recalls stories like this, I can do nothing but believe they were true.

I study Aikido and I study "fast knockouts via blows to the chin." Again limiting the techniques of Aikido means that it is not Aikido

His small amount of training is both Sumo and Judo would have contributed to his overall martial development, but this does not mean he was a grappler. Takeda only studied Daito Ryu (or whatever it was called back then). Takeda easily overcame O'Sensei when he was challenged him.

Regards,
I have to ask, although I agree a hard knock out punch will knock you out, how are you training that punch? When I train I focus on proper head movement, and strikes to setup my takedowns (its' a fight not a bjj match). So are you training to deal with trained strikers closing the distance to a clinch?

I personally never recommend the one punch one kill approach. I've been hit very hard with no effect, I've been grazed and knocked on my butt. It's not reliable. This is why the UFC calls it a punchers chance.

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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Old 09-03-2007, 09:36 AM   #213
darin
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Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

"Elbow to the chin, body to the elbow" Sounds very familiar! Also instead of turning the wrist out you roll it back into your opponent. Works very well especially if you lean your weight onto the wrist and the wrist is clenched or is holding a knife.

I reckon the best answer is if you have trained BJJ guys in your dojo, have them attack you. I don't think its that easy to take down someone who has been doing aikido for a while. Even if they do you will soon work out what they are doing. Aikidoists don't attack unlike BJJ or UFC style fighting where your forced to fight. It could be frustrating for them in sparring.

Recently one of my friends who is well trained in kickboxing and grappling sparred with my students. We do an exercise where you have to defend against a person wearing 16 ounce gloves. My guys would get in easily and do sutemi or keep their distance and get kotegaeshi, mukae doashi or dogaeshi but my friend just weathered the punches and went in for double leg take downs. My top students worked out his strategy pretty quickly so they just maintained distance resulting in him often tripping over and having to use kicks and punches to distract his attackers. He called me the next day and said that what we do is far more efficient, suitable for women, old people and for him if he was sick as it required less energy. Will he change to aikido? No. He wants to do UFC ground and pound.

Aikido is self defense not a ring sport. Some of the NHB moves aren't practical against larger/heavier opponents and could put you in dangerous positions if used on the street.
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Old 09-03-2007, 09:50 AM   #214
wildaikido
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Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

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Don Magee wrote: View Post
I have to ask, although I agree a hard knock out punch will knock you out, how are you training that punch? When I train I focus on proper head movement, and strikes to setup my takedowns (its' a fight not a bjj match). So are you training to deal with trained strikers closing the distance to a clinch?

I personally never recommend the one punch one kill approach. I've been hit very hard with no effect, I've been grazed and knocked on my butt. It's not reliable. This is why the UFC calls it a punchers chance.
I made it quite clear that the requirement to succeed with a "simple" technique is superior awareness. Currently my awareness is good enough to deal with people on depressive drugs, like alcohol, possible a random untrained mugger. Is it good enough for a trained fighter? NO! I never said it was. I said O'Sensei's was, hence the overwhelming success Aikido had when it first spread around the world. I also stated the purpose of Budo is the development of awareness, and consistence hard mindful training cultivates awareness.

The physiological result of a blow to the side of the chin has been proven. Right now, if for some unknown reason I had to defend myself against a BJJer I am going for the choke aswell, because as I said before, in Yoseikan we learn to ground fight.

Regards,

Graham Wild
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Old 09-03-2007, 11:04 AM   #215
philippe willaume
 
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Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

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Don Magee wrote: View Post
I have to ask, although I agree a hard knock out punch will knock you out, how are you training that punch? When I train I focus on proper head movement, and strikes to setup my takedowns (its' a fight not a bjj match). So are you training to deal with trained strikers closing the distance to a clinch?

I personally never recommend the one punch one kill approach. I've been hit very hard with no effect, I've been grazed and knocked on my butt. It's not reliable. This is why the UFC calls it a punchers chance.
Hello, don
That what I think atemi should be used for.
I can not remember the name of the coach that the said that. He is a relatively famous wrestling MMA coach in the US, (I can not give him credit where it is due). Basically he said that you should punch like you go for a shoot.

That being said and almost in a paradoxal way, a punch has a good chance of knock out in self defence as it usually kicks in at conversation range. (I.e. punching range)
In essence that is what Geof Thompson fence + pre-emptive strike is based on. (And that is a one punch one kill strategy; the rest is seen as secondary skill to have in case of).

Phil

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Old 09-03-2007, 12:36 PM   #216
Aristeia
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Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

So graham it's using simple techniques that will work but to make them work you need almost superhuman awareness?

This conversation is starting to sound familiar. Knocking out a grappler as they clinch is great if you can manage it, but a terrible "go to" strategy - because it has been shown time and again even the best strikers struggle to do it. Pointing to legends of someone long dead for evidence that it is what we should be doing is unacceptable.
Telling people that this is how it should work in theory but that pretty much no one today has develeoped their awareness or spirit or ki enough is unacceptable. If people are looking for fighting solutions then martial leaders need to be able to provide proven and reliable methods that deliver results in less than half a lifetime.

As always, the way to deal with grapplers is to learn how to grapple effectively. Or stay out of their way.

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
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Old 09-03-2007, 04:31 PM   #217
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Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

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As always, the way to deal with grapplers is to learn how to grapple effectively. Or stay out of their way.
I wonder if there ever was an encounter between a grappler and O Sensei or Shioda?
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Old 09-03-2007, 06:30 PM   #218
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Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

To a large part it's irrelevent imo. In Aikido we seem to spend an inordinate amount of time regaling each other with stories of what Ueshiba could do. What difference does that make if the modern generation can't replicate it? Surely we should be expecting subsequent generations to be delivering superior rather than inferior outcomes?

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
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Old 09-03-2007, 07:46 PM   #219
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Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

Quote:
Graham Wild wrote: View Post
I made it quite clear that the requirement to succeed with a "simple" technique is superior awareness. Currently my awareness is good enough to deal with people on depressive drugs, like alcohol, possible a random untrained mugger. Is it good enough for a trained fighter? NO! I never said it was. I said O'Sensei's was, hence the overwhelming success Aikido had when it first spread around the world. I also stated the purpose of Budo is the development of awareness, and consistence hard mindful training cultivates awareness.

The physiological result of a blow to the side of the chin has been proven. Right now, if for some unknown reason I had to defend myself against a BJJer I am going for the choke aswell, because as I said before, in Yoseikan we learn to ground fight.

Regards,
I was not trying to imply anything. I was simply asking what training methods you use to develop this skill. However you bring up an interesting point. Training to fight trained fighters will defiantly allow you to fight untrained fighters. But training for only untrained fighters will only help you fight untrained fighters.

But that is beyond the point. I simply want to know what training methods you use to develop your striking.

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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Old 09-03-2007, 08:00 PM   #220
darin
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Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

I think its best to train with both trained and untrained fighters. I don't think anyone is fully prepared to deal with a mugger, someone high on drugs or drunk. Thing is in a real situation your bound to be outnumbered and attacked either from behind or by surprise and attackers sometimes do carry or will use something in the vicinity as a weapon. There is also the threat of spending jail time just for defending yourself.

Be safe.
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Old 09-03-2007, 08:35 PM   #221
Keith R Lee
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Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

Quote:
Michael Fooks wrote: View Post
To a large part it's irrelevent imo. In Aikido we seem to spend an inordinate amount of time regaling each other with stories of what Ueshiba could do. What difference does that make if the modern generation can't replicate it? Surely we should be expecting subsequent generations to be delivering superior rather than inferior outcomes?
I agree that this seems to come up quite often. I not concerned with what Ueshiba could do. Not only that, I fall in the camp that believes Ueshiba, even in his prime, he would get his @$$ handed to him by today's MMA elite. Fighting has evolved far past what existed in Ueshiba's heyday. Not to mention many Japanese MAs tend to veer into self-congratulatory groupthink territory in regards to their effectiveness, founders, etc (IMO).

MMA/BJJ/"alive" training paradigms provide a forum for which a person can try things, see how they work, and measure them. As opposed to relying on supposition, hypotheticals, and hearsay about how a certain technique "should" work. It makes me think of the XKCD shirt "Science" found here: http://www.xkcd.com/store/ (scroll down)

Keith Lee
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Old 09-04-2007, 12:30 AM   #222
wildaikido
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Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

Quote:
Darin Hyde wrote: View Post
I think its best to train with both trained and untrained fighters. I don't think anyone is fully prepared to deal with a mugger, someone high on drugs or drunk. Thing is in a real situation your bound to be outnumbered and attacked either from behind or by surprise and attackers sometimes do carry or will use something in the vicinity as a weapon. There is also the threat of spending jail time just for defending yourself.

Be safe.
I know I am prepared to deal with someone high on drugs and someone drunk, because I have done it! I have had two self defence situations the first on was a drunk guy (two but I had a friend), the second was with a guy who had been sniffing glue and paint (don't know if this is a stimulant or depressant). I don't think I will every need to deal with a mugger as they target easy weak people. I do, however, feel confident from my two encounters and training that I could defend my self against an untrained person. If I did not I would not train at a self defence school.

Regards,

Graham Wild
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Old 09-04-2007, 12:31 AM   #223
wildaikido
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Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

Quote:
Don Magee wrote: View Post
I was not trying to imply anything. I was simply asking what training methods you use to develop this skill. However you bring up an interesting point. Training to fight trained fighters will defiantly allow you to fight untrained fighters. But training for only untrained fighters will only help you fight untrained fighters.

But that is beyond the point. I simply want to know what training methods you use to develop your striking.
Consistent hard mindful training will develop awareness.

Regards,

Graham Wild
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Old 09-04-2007, 12:36 AM   #224
wildaikido
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Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

[quote=Michael Fooks;188522]So graham it's using simple techniques that will work but to make them work you need almost superhuman awareness?

This conversation is starting to sound familiar. Knocking out a grappler as they clinch is great if you can manage it, but a terrible "go to" strategy - because it has been shown time and again even the best strikers struggle to do it. Pointing to legends of someone long dead for evidence that it is what we should be doing is unacceptable.
Telling people that this is how it should work in theory but that pretty much no one today has develeoped their awareness or spirit or ki enough is unacceptable. If people are looking for fighting solutions then martial leaders need to be able to provide proven and reliable methods that deliver results in less than half a lifetime.QUOTE]

If you watch Mifune do judo, you see his awareness, it is for this reason he could not be thrown. I see footage of Mochizuki Kancho doing Judo, and I see the same awareness. Hence it is possible to develop this awareness.

Quote:
Michael Fooks wrote: View Post
As always, the way to deal with grapplers is to learn how to grapple effectively. Or stay out of their way.
People don't read! I said in Yoseikan we learn to grapple, I also said that in the highly unlikely situation were I have to defend myself against a trained BJJer I am happy to go to the floor!

Graham Wild
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Old 09-04-2007, 02:02 AM   #225
darin
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Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

Quote:
Graham Wild wrote: View Post
I know I am prepared to deal with someone high on drugs and someone drunk, because I have done it! I have had two self defence situations the first on was a drunk guy (two but I had a friend), the second was with a guy who had been sniffing glue and paint (don't know if this is a stimulant or depressant). I don't think I will every need to deal with a mugger as they target easy weak people. I do, however, feel confident from my two encounters and training that I could defend my self against an untrained person. If I did not I would not train at a self defence school.

Regards,
You missed my point. And yes even big strong guys like you do get mugged or worse. I don't think its something you can be too confident about. Self defense Is about common sense and luck.
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