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Old 07-26-2007, 05:38 AM   #176
DonMagee
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Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

Quote:
Dalen Johnson wrote: View Post
Can Aikido beat BJJ?
Can my sandan beat your sandan?

But seriously, this type of thread goes in circles because everything isnt that cut and dry. What is aikido? - as if everyone even practices the same style of aikido...and aikido came out of another art, and the same with BJJ, etc. (evolution my friends)

So, my 3rd dan and 4th dan could probably beat most peoples dans and BJJs as well. And as I move up, I will to.
Evolution.

Its all Ego my friends, labels. You cant grow or be 'master' with making an identity out of the sport you train.

Adaptation.

Thats what happens with us.
We have ground training involved - suppose it has to do with our 4th dan (Imre Marton of Hungary) is also a black belt in Judo - as well as a black belt in a couple other arts that actually involve weapons...so things trickle down.

So again, our aikido is not stagnant and is evolving and incorporating life applications. I saw someone say they were happy to practice tanto dori now that they are shodan - nice, but Im no kyu and Im already practicing that.

Point simple - 'aikido' cant beat BJJ, etc. - the argument can continue to go in circles on the base level.
Adaptation, and skill, and yes, strength (sure doesnt hurt when someone skilled like you is facing you) go a long way.

And of all people, I would think most of you would realize this.
You guys know of MMA, JeetKundo concepts. We already know one art cant do it all.

Imagine BJJ crawling on the ground like some animal waiting for you to fall. Of course they will do something that isnt ground technique to hope to get you down - and they cross train - dont they

So when we drop the 'my art' is 'it' we wont have these type threads that keep popping up.

In this modern age with so much technology, ideas, techniques available to us...martial arts has evolved. Let us not forget that the military learns how to just eliminate the fight before they are on the ground wrestling - they kill the opponent.

So the above puts to rest quite quickly all the ego talk of who is the best...if there were no rules, the military techniques would win...but someone would be badly injured or killed.

It life, have fun...enjoy your ikkyos if your an aikido or your rolling on the ground if you BJJ, or you bloody noses if your a boxer.

Peace

Dalen
The US army uses combatives based of bjj and a few other sport based arts. That's if the shooting and stabbing fail of course.

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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Old 07-26-2007, 06:22 AM   #177
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Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

Here's the thing as well . . . if you're fairly new to aikido or bjj, you barely have the "moral authority" to describe much about the art(s) you DO train in - much less the art(s) that you don't.
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Old 07-26-2007, 08:26 AM   #178
Keith R Lee
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Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

Quote:
Dalen Johnson wrote: View Post
Can Aikido beat BJJ?
Can my sandan beat your sandan?

etc.
Not really sure why you went back through this thread and pulled out this one quote of mine...but I'll roll with it.

I only brought up the sandan rank because someone else was using it as a standard bearer for effectiveness in Aikido (along with a bunch of other crap that I don't remember, and don't care enough to look for it).

Personally, I think rank in any art that does not base its belt system on being able to perform well in "live" (rolling to submission, striking to TKO or KO, Ippon throw, etc.) competition means very little in regards to effectiveness of the practitioner in application.

Let's take BJJ for example since it seems popular to dogpile on. If I go up to any brown belt in almost any BJJ gym in the world, I know that the guy is going to be trouble on the ground; serious trouble. He should be able to give anyone difficulties. I know this because the guy obtained his rank by demonstrating that he is effective in a resistant, "live" environment.

Aikido (with Tomiki and its ilk being the exception) rank can be based on whatever. It's completely subjective and is entirely up to the instructor. I would think most people have met students in Aikido who are brown belts or shodans, not because of their talents or skill, but based upon the fact that they've just hung around for six or seven years. In my experience with BJJ thus far, I have yet to encounter this type of situation.

The only thing that approaches it is in BJJ tourneys where there is usually a "Masters" or "Executive" division for people 40 or 50+. And it's there because people know that even though someone might be a brown belt in BJJ at 55, they can't compete with a brown belt at 25, just based on sheer physicality. Whereas in Aikido, somehow the older you are...the better you get at it?

So whether someone is a 4 kyu or 2nd dan in Aikido, doesn't really make much of a difference to me. Again, (and I think lots of Aikido people miss this point and just get hung up on BJJ) it's not that BJJ and it's techniques are better or anything. Someone trained in BJJ, wrestling, boxing, etc. is more likely to be effective because they train and compete in a "alive" environment where they regularly encounter resistance and learn how to overcome it. In cooperative practice, you are never going to have that opportunity.

Keith Lee
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Old 07-27-2007, 12:42 AM   #179
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Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

Quote:
Keith Lee wrote: View Post
So whether someone is a 4 kyu or 2nd dan in Aikido, doesn't really make much of a difference to me. Again, (and I think lots of Aikido people miss this point and just get hung up on BJJ) it's not that BJJ and it's techniques are better or anything. Someone trained in BJJ, wrestling, boxing, etc. is more likely to be effective because they train and compete in a "alive" environment where they regularly encounter resistance and learn how to overcome it. In cooperative practice, you are never going to have that opportunity.
No I only pulled your quote for reference...it was not anything personal, etc...just to give context at the end of the long thread as I stopped not long after reading your post and had no clue where it twisted (the thread) at the end.

Yes, 'aliveness'. Thats interesting, and what I am seeing that is setting apart where I do aikido. Im not saying its 100% alive at all times...especially for beginners - but there is a degree of aliveness and even expected - our 2nd kyu left with bruises at the seminar, as well as myself. Again, Im not going to say its on the same line as BJJ, as its not fully 'alive', but I am grateful for the life thats in it.

Peace

Dalen
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Old 07-27-2007, 12:52 AM   #180
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Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

Quote:
Keith Lee wrote: View Post
The only thing that approaches it is in BJJ tourneys where there is usually a "Masters" or "Executive" division for people 40 or 50+. And it's there because people know that even though someone might be a brown belt in BJJ at 55, they can't compete with a brown belt at 25, just based on sheer physicality. Whereas in Aikido, somehow the older you are...the better you get at it?
Totally agree with the latter statement.
You often wonder if these older people are just delusional that they could do something, or it there is something to their jedi 'ki' mind power tricks.

eitherway,

Peace

Dalen
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Old 07-27-2007, 02:36 AM   #181
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Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

Hi all,
initially I did not intend to step in into another of these threads.

But there maybe some new thoughts, which just touched my mind.

While it is hardly to get really comparative people, lets say we could find some pairs of equivalent BJJ fighters and Aikidoka, same age, size, weight, strength, duration and intensiveness of training.

If youget organised a tournament, probably in 80% of the fights, BJJ guys win. Could be more, could be less. On the street the figures could be higher or lower, I won't bet, but probably virtually the same.

Grade is not a good measure as BJJ promotes for tournament success, aikido not. So even if the the training would prepare both the same, the selection in BJJ would prefer good fighters rather than aikido, where you could reach far with only minimum of fighting skills.

But why is it relevant? In tournaments usually Aikidoka do not attend. On the street it is unlikely that an Aikido master would attack a BJJ master. I am not sure about the other way. Is here anyone, who could tell me, if BJJ trains burglars, muggers or hooligans to mastership?

And yet another idea. Let's assume an extreme situation - and I do not care, if it is realistic as it is just a mind experience.

So if there is a well skilled Aikdioka participating in a MMA tournament. He does not even think about throwing or pinning the counterpart but avoids virtually any contact. So whom ever he would meet in this tournament, he had taken probably a few punches without any effect, and the others just fell over out of balance from time to time. In the end the aikidoka is still in quit good condition, while his partners are exhausted. How far would he have come? Or if it was an each-vs-each-tournament, where woild he be in the end? Probably disqualified for not fighting or right at the end for not scoring, I guess.

BJJ fighters seek to win.That is what they train for. That is why they choose BJJ (most of them) and that is where they are good.

Most Aikidoka have other goals. That is why most aikidoka are not very good in fight. Many of them (us) rather dance than fight. But if your goal is not to win, but to survive and to protect even your foes, then you create other skills. We can argue another 1000 times, if aikido is really teaching one of these goals. For me personally in my risk environment the aikido we train fits (nearly) perfectly. If I were somewhere else, it might have to be different. As BJJ fighters change there training according to the next tournament they plan to attend, the aikido training has to be adapted to the needs.

There is a general aikido training, which fits for most participants, but even this might change, if you have a dojo in Sao Paolo suburbs for adolescent students or in an Amish country site. And you need special training for military needs, law enforcements, street workers, teachers even depending on the school, or management coaching. If it is all in the spirit of budo as the "Path of Protection", it is aikido and the technical part is irrelevant. You can choose, whatever is applicable.

Peace and (active) harmony

Dirk
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Old 07-27-2007, 07:26 AM   #182
Paul Sanderson-Cimino
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Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

Quote:
Dirk Hanss wrote: View Post
So if there is a well skilled Aikdioka participating in a MMA tournament. He does not even think about throwing or pinning the counterpart but avoids virtually any contact. So whom ever he would meet in this tournament, he had taken probably a few punches without any effect, and the others just fell over out of balance from time to time. In the end the aikidoka is still in quit good condition, while his partners are exhausted.
Um. I'm not sure that's how that would go.

<MMA fighter> "Wow, I tried really hard to hit him, but those large pivots and evasive hand motions stymied me every time! I can only hit people who have trained for hours with other people who are also well-trained in striking."
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Old 07-27-2007, 08:39 AM   #183
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Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

Quote:
Paul Sanderson-Cimino wrote: View Post
Um. I'm not sure that's how that would go.
Paul,
I am nearly sure it would work like that.
Just a thought experiment. It is unlikely to evade forever in a small cage or ring. However I have seen fights, where it worked for a while. And if there were such a talented aikidoka, who agreed upon showing up in a tournament, he would at least be able to set some punches and kicks for scoring.

It was an exaggerating description about where the differences are.

Best regards

Dirk
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Old 07-27-2007, 08:39 AM   #184
Ron Tisdale
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Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

Quote:
So whom ever he would meet in this tournament, he had taken probably a few punches without any effect, and the others just fell over out of balance from time to time. In the end the aikidoka is still in quit good condition, while his partners are exhausted. How far would he have come? Or if it was an each-vs-each-tournament, where woild he be in the end? Probably disqualified for not fighting or right at the end for not scoring, I guess.
I appreciate the effort you put into this post, but I think you are missing some crucial experience in the format you are discussing.

I have tried working evasions with people who are in good shape, trained in other arts (including wrestling and striking arts) and have found the following:

a) against conditioned atheletes, evasions only work for so long. They can expend way more energy when used against a cautious, skilled attack than you might think. You may be sucsessful for 2, 3, maybe even 5 evasions (I say may...this is best case). But the ma ai on each sucsessful evasion narrows...sooner or later you get caught. Strategies like xstep in, pivot, xstep back to re-establish distance help...but for the evasions to be sucsessful against a skilled fighter, you have to work on a VERY thin edge...and even slight changes in ma ai after a sucsessfull evasion can throw the next one off. To the point where a good boxer will tag you (hard) or a wrestler will have a good opportunity to shoot.

b) Once one of those two things happen, if you don't have strategies to cover and protect from being hit, or to stop a shot, you WILL get hit, or taken down, and have to carry the other persons weight while trying to escape or defend.

c) Establishing and maintaining ma ai in a closed environment like a cage, or even a mat with marked boundries and a referee to call time and bring you back in, is not the same as what we see in most aikido dojo. In a cage environment, any skilled fighter is going to cut corners, take angles, force you into a corner or up against the fence. If you can't deal with them there, you are going to have problems.

I'm not saying these stategies can't work for a short time...but sooner or later the rubber will have to meet the road...you will have to be able to fend off the commited, balanced attack while not sustaining damage. My prediction? If you haven't trained for the environment, you will get hosed.

Best,
Ron

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Old 07-27-2007, 08:45 AM   #185
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Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

Good post, Ron. I had a much longer attempt to say what you succinctly put.

Thing is, you can train for these things to make your aikido better if it's of any interest. It doesn't mean you're suddenly competing, just maybe stepping outside the comfort zones a tad . . . (FWIW, to each their own and what not)

Just comes back to training goals, honestly testing them (and associated theories) and maybe being flexible about one's dogma - especially early on the learning curve (of course this can be applied to far more than just "aikidoka").

Last edited by Budd : 07-27-2007 at 08:47 AM. Reason: That darn sasquatch
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Old 07-27-2007, 08:50 AM   #186
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Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

Ron,
you are right. neither do I have qualified experience in such fights, nor was the example meant to be realistic.

Dirk
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Old 07-29-2007, 01:40 PM   #187
Greg Jennings
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Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

Guuueeezzz,

The more things change the more they remain the same.

Regards,

Greg Jennings
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Old 07-31-2007, 11:16 AM   #188
philippe willaume
 
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Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

Hello

As Ron, Don, and Budd said "evasion" is not going to get you out of trouble unless you are facing an over committed attack..
It does not mater if it is self defence or competition, if you face an opponent that strike whilst being in balance (IE within his own space), you need to destroy/compromise his structure before getting close to do anything meaning full to him.
Voiding alone will not give you that.
Voiding will only give the time and the place if and if only your opponent is over -committed.
This applies to weapon as well, in fact it is even more critical to weapon because double hit means double kill and that defeats the whole purpose of fencing so it does not make sense to "only evade" with or without a sword either.

Sure you can make someone over extend, we probably all had some why-the-hell-did-I-do-that-for moments when sparring. But I think you need to be very very good to produce that consistently. (And I believe some people are capable of that.)

As Keith said, is not so much at the technical level, sparing will give you two things (that can be replicated in randory/kokyu nague and parried practice), it is the sense of distance /timing and active resistance. There is no need for competition, or even sparing per see. From my experience sparing can not really tell you what does work but it will tell you what does not work. But I believe this is something we need to bear in mind when we train at least from time to time.

Phil

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Old 08-08-2007, 09:03 AM   #189
Sensei Green
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Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

I think Anthony Towsley probably had the best advise. It is wise to have a little BJJ training, or at least exposure. Movement is important. Don't be there when they shoot for the legs. If they do shoot for the legs, like suggested, make them pay. Knees are great in that situation. If they do get you down, most Aikido techniques won't do much for you on their turf. I would also suggest attacking soft and vulnerable areas of their body. It's a difficult situation no doubt, but with a little training, it can be done.
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Old 08-08-2007, 01:13 PM   #190
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Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

To beat on a BJJ person?

Drumsticks?

ba dum bumb!

A secret of internal strength?:
"Let your weight from the crotch area BE in his hands."
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Old 08-08-2007, 02:14 PM   #191
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Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

Quote:
Christopher Green wrote: View Post
I I would also suggest attacking soft and vulnerable areas of their body.
winning on the ground is mostly about correct leverage and movement. Attcking soft targets without that leverage & movement will at best irritate the BJJer and at worst hurt them enough to *really* annoy them and then they will so some real damage. imo.

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
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Old 08-14-2007, 04:06 PM   #192
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Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

I dont know, but I happen to know for a fact that kotegaishi works just fine when someone has the mount on you.

To speak ill of anything is against the nature of Aikido
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Old 08-14-2007, 05:36 PM   #193
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Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

Depends who the someone is I guess.

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
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Old 08-15-2007, 12:08 PM   #194
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Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

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Mikel Hamer wrote: View Post
I dont know, but I happen to know for a fact that kotegaishi works just fine when someone has the mount on you.
I'd have to see it to believe it. The way I ride mount is usually in one of two forms

1) grapevined legs, arms out wide for base, digging my weight right into your sternum keeping you from breathing and waiting for the submission.

2) Riding up very high with my legs pushing your arms up over your head, punching you in the face or preparing an armbar with a 2 on 1 grip.

In the mount you have no leverage, no strength, and no way of moving yourself to an angle on me. Essentially it should be impossible to apply any significant turn to my wrist. The person in the mount has the ability to use leverage, strength, weight, and his free hand to pound on you as needed. I'd probably be willing to give my hand to a person while I'm in the mount if it keeps them busy while I start dropping elbows.

- Don
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Old 08-15-2007, 12:11 PM   #195
Ron Tisdale
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Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

I can see kotegaeshi working well when the person mounting you doesn't know BJJ or submission grappling very well. Otherwise, I'd have to see it to make any kind of judgement.

Best,
Ron

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Old 08-15-2007, 12:50 PM   #196
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Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

Actually, everyone knows that when you're mounted, the best technique is kaiten nage . . . . followed by eye gouges, hair pulling and a groin stomp. Once you get back to your feet, quickly sprinkle glass and lava on the ground and then you will have nothing to fear from a groundfighter . . .
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Old 08-20-2007, 04:58 AM   #197
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Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

Quote:
Budd Yuhasz wrote: View Post
Actually, everyone knows that when you're mounted, the best technique is kaiten nage . . . . followed by eye gouges, hair pulling and a groin stomp. Once you get back to your feet, quickly sprinkle glass and lava on the ground and then you will have nothing to fear from a groundfighter . . .
We all know that in real life, then best method is to gradually scoot your opponent against some cage that you happen to be fighting in, then run out the time on the clock. After the time runs out on the magical clock you get a break and you will be rested. Then just resume the fight standing up.

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Old 08-20-2007, 07:04 AM   #198
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Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

I hate those kind of fights. If you're competing in a sport, I'd rather see you try to win by knockout or submission than try not to lose by laying and (maybe) preying.

The good news for aikido people is that virtually no one will force them to get in a cage with a bjj guy - so cage jitsu shouldn't be a concern unless you willingly go there.
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Old 08-20-2007, 08:16 AM   #199
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Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

I'm an aikidoka. not a grappler. I would suggest that taking on a grappler at grappling is unwise.

On the flip side I would like to add a short anecdote.. (Yawn)

I was working in a club not far from my house. I was stood watching the crowd and a very large gentleman approached me as I happened to be on the route to the exit. The man swung at my groin and moved to nut me. I didn't move. he turned to me and said.

"hurhur would of got you then wouldn't I mate?!"

Being a pro I said nothing and smiled with a 'yeah woah you're so cool' roll of my eyes. Normally I don't even consider saying anything but it crossed my mind to banter

"I suppose we'll never know.."

I felt bad for thinking it.

med
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Old 08-21-2007, 03:27 AM   #200
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Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

Quote:
Mikel Hamer wrote: View Post
I dont know, but I happen to know for a fact that kotegaishi works just fine when someone has the mount on you.
Hello
Well yes, it does as does ikkio, nikkio, sankio and so on.
In fact it does works from either side of the mount.
The case of the two hand on the throat strangle is a good exemple. Especially since the natural tendancy is to put your boddy weigh at 90 degree of the arms (hence you are weakening your hip position and the control on the guy being mounted.
However, in my experience it is due to the guy in the mount rushing things or being inexperienced.

Any thing that is function of what Don mentioned will not give you the opportunity, basically if you are mounted; you are very likely buggered bar a cock up from the mounting side. It is not as bad in pure BJJ (i.e. were there is no pounding allowed) but it is still not a great position to be in.

Phil

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