Welcome to AikiWeb Aikido Information
AikiWeb: The Source for Aikido Information
AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information.

Sections
home
aikido articles
columns

Discussions
forums
aikiblogs

Databases
dojo search
seminars
image gallery
supplies
links directory

Reviews
book reviews
video reviews
dvd reviews
equip. reviews

News
submit
archive

Miscellaneous
newsletter
rss feeds
polls
about

Follow us on



Home > AikiWeb Aikido Forums
Go Back   AikiWeb Aikido Forums > Techniques

Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history, humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced features available, you will need to register first. Registration is absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 11-30-2014, 07:34 PM   #1
Dan Richards
Dojo: Latham Eclectic
Location: NY
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 413
United_States
Offline
Why Wrist Locks Don't Work (video)

I'm starting a series of videos on why wrist locks don't work, and to give some insight into some of the mechanics needed for effective application.

Feedback appreciated on this video, and as I go along introducing other ones.

Last edited by Dan Richards : 11-30-2014 at 07:48 PM.

  Reply With Quote
Old 11-30-2014, 09:45 PM   #2
Dan Richards
Dojo: Latham Eclectic
Location: NY
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 413
United_States
Offline
Re: Why Locks Don't Work (video)

Why Wrist Locks Don't Work

  Reply With Quote
Old 12-01-2014, 03:42 AM   #3
MRoh
Location: Düsseldorf
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 87
Germany
Offline
Re: Why Locks Don't Work (video)

The basic functionality and correct positions and angles for applying kote-geashi, you see in this video:

www.youtube.com/watch?v=1DOhGmysZyo
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-01-2014, 04:20 AM   #4
PeterR
 
PeterR's Avatar
Dojo: Shodokan Honbu (Osaka)
Location: Himeji, Japan
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 3,075
Japan
Offline
Re: Why Locks Don't Work (video)

Do you consider Kote-geashi a wrist lock?

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-01-2014, 07:39 AM   #5
sakumeikan
Dojo: Sakumeikan N.E. Aikkai .Newcastle upon Tyne.
Location: Newcastle upon Tyne
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 1,162
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: Why Locks Don't Work (video)

Quote:
Peter Rehse wrote: View Post
Do you consider Kote-geashi a wrist lock?
Dear Peter,
My answer is no. Kote Gaeshi is a throw which utilises the wrist to achieve the object is to throw the person. Cheers, Joe.
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-01-2014, 09:59 AM   #6
Erick Mead
 
Erick Mead's Avatar
Dojo: Big Green Drum (W. Florida Aikikai)
Location: West Florida
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 2,505
United_States
Offline
Re: Why Locks Don't Work (video)

Quote:
Joe Curran wrote: View Post
Dear Peter,
My answer is no. Kote Gaeshi is a throw which utilises the wrist to achieve the object is to throw the person. Cheers, Joe.
I'll quibble a bit.

1. Kotegaeshi is neither a lock -- nor a throw
2. Kotegaeshi is a CONTROL, whose purpose is to maintain a certain connection
3. What throws --- THROUGH that connection -- is EITHER tai-sabaki OR Aiki
4. Tai sabaki makes a throw by carrying uke's body dynamically OUTSIDE his zone of support, causing his support structure to alter irrevocably
5. Aiki makes a throw by irrevocably altering the internal support structure of uke's body while still WITHIN his (presumed) zone of support, causing his zone of support to contract and disappear

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-01-2014, 11:12 AM   #7
PeterR
 
PeterR's Avatar
Dojo: Shodokan Honbu (Osaka)
Location: Himeji, Japan
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 3,075
Japan
Offline
Re: Why Locks Don't Work (video)

Quote:
Joe Curran wrote: View Post
Dear Peter,
My answer is no. Kote Gaeshi is a throw which utilises the wrist to achieve the object is to throw the person. Cheers, Joe.
I tend to be quite literal - "Small hand return/fold"

There are pins/locks that use it but it is more than likely, as you say, used in a throw. I just have trouble classing it as a wrist lock since it certainly does not do that.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-01-2014, 12:44 PM   #8
Cliff Judge
Dojo: Aikido Shobukan Dojo
Location: Columbia, MD
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 993
United_States
Offline
Re: Why Locks Don't Work (video)

I always thought the kote was actually the forearm, from the elbow forward.
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-01-2014, 01:03 PM   #9
PeterR
 
PeterR's Avatar
Dojo: Shodokan Honbu (Osaka)
Location: Himeji, Japan
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 3,075
Japan
Offline
Re: Why Locks Don't Work (video)

Quote:
Cliff Judge wrote: View Post
I always thought the kote was actually the forearm, from the elbow forward.
It is, including the hand. In Kendo the kote is the glove that covers the area.

Pretty hard to just fold the forearm.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-01-2014, 02:14 PM   #10
ChrisHein
 
ChrisHein's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido of Fresno
Location: Fresno , CA
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 1,638
United_States
Offline
Re: Why Locks Don't Work (video)

I wouldn't chew gum on my video's if I were you.

  Reply With Quote
Old 12-01-2014, 02:44 PM   #11
Cliff Judge
Dojo: Aikido Shobukan Dojo
Location: Columbia, MD
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 993
United_States
Offline
Re: Why Locks Don't Work (video)

Quote:
Peter Rehse wrote: View Post
It is, including the hand. In Kendo the kote is the glove that covers the area.

Pretty hard to just fold the forearm.
No, but you can return it.
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-01-2014, 02:49 PM   #12
RonRagusa
Location: Massachusetts
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 680
United_States
Offline
Re: Why Locks Don't Work (video)

Both Kote Gaeshi and Shiho Nage bridge the gap separating immobilization techniques and projection techniques. They don't fall into either category exclusively.

Ron

  Reply With Quote
Old 12-01-2014, 08:08 PM   #13
jdostie
Dojo: Aikido of Livermore
Location: Ceres/CA
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 20
United_States
Online
Re: Why Locks Don't Work (video)

Quote:
Cliff Judge wrote: View Post
No, but you can return it.
You can also extend it, and affect structure that way. Still Kotegaishi.
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-01-2014, 08:13 PM   #14
Cliff Judge
Dojo: Aikido Shobukan Dojo
Location: Columbia, MD
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 993
United_States
Offline
Re: Why Locks Don't Work (video)

Quote:
Cliff Judge wrote: View Post
No, but you can return it.
Ha! I hadn't even watched the video with sound yet, and here I was, making Richard's arguments for him.

I pretty much agree with this clip in general.

Quote:
Joseph Dostie wrote: View Post
You can also extend it, and affect structure that way. Still Kotegaishi.
gaeshi = return,
kotegaeshi = forearm return

Last edited by Cliff Judge : 12-01-2014 at 08:15 PM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-01-2014, 08:34 PM   #15
jdostie
Dojo: Aikido of Livermore
Location: Ceres/CA
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 20
United_States
Online
Re: Why Locks Don't Work (video)

Quote:
Cliff Judge wrote: View Post
Ha! I hadn't even watched the video with sound yet, and here I was, making Richard's arguments for him.

I pretty much agree with this clip in general.

gaeshi = return,
kotegaeshi = forearm return
Gaishi can also mean reversal - kote gaeshi - wrist reversal, no?

Now if you extend the arm out and turn the palm/wrist over in the direction it does not like to turn, is that not kote-gaishi? If not, what would you call it?
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-02-2014, 03:04 AM   #16
PeterR
 
PeterR's Avatar
Dojo: Shodokan Honbu (Osaka)
Location: Himeji, Japan
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 3,075
Japan
Offline
Re: Why Locks Don't Work (video)

Forearm - does not include the wrist or any part of the hand. Kote does. Just saying.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-02-2014, 08:15 AM   #17
MRoh
Location: Düsseldorf
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 87
Germany
Offline
Re: Why Locks Don't Work (video)

Quote:
Joseph Dostie wrote: View Post
Now if you extend the arm out and turn the palm/wrist over in the direction it does not like to turn, is that not kote-gaishi? If not, what would you call it?
What means gaishi?
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-02-2014, 08:49 AM   #18
Cliff Judge
Dojo: Aikido Shobukan Dojo
Location: Columbia, MD
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 993
United_States
Offline
Re: Why Locks Don't Work (video)

Quote:
Joseph Dostie wrote: View Post
Gaishi can also mean reversal - kote gaeshi - wrist reversal, no?

Now if you extend the arm out and turn the palm/wrist over in the direction it does not like to turn, is that not kote-gaishi? If not, what would you call it?
The term I am familiar with for wrist is te kubi - neck of the hand.

But I generally agree with what you are saying - the overall movement of energy in a good kotegaeshi (which is to say....I have discovered it works best in general when I do it this way) comes up from uke's back foot, into nage's hara, and then returns back to uke at some point where they aren't strong. I think what you are describing is basically that.
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-02-2014, 10:00 AM   #19
Demetrio Cereijo
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 1,923
Spain
Offline
Re: Why Locks Don't Work (video)

Interesting.

Is there going to be a clip demoing with an alive, resisting, non compliant partner not half nage's size and a bit athletic?

  Reply With Quote
Old 12-02-2014, 10:12 AM   #20
NagaBaba
 
NagaBaba's Avatar
Location: Wild, deep, deadly North
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,148
Offline
Re: Why Wrist Locks Don't Work (video)

Quote:
Dan Richards wrote: View Post
I'm starting a series of videos on why wrist locks don't work.
It is very simple - because you don't know how to do it correctly. That is why you need some kind of artificial patches trying to fill up the missing part of knowledge.

Nagababa

ask for divine protection Ame no Murakumo Kuki Samuhara no Ryuo
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-02-2014, 10:53 AM   #21
Cliff Judge
Dojo: Aikido Shobukan Dojo
Location: Columbia, MD
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 993
United_States
Offline
Re: Why Wrist Locks Don't Work (video)

Quote:
Szczepan Janczuk wrote: View Post
It is very simple - because you don't know how to do it correctly. That is why you need some kind of artificial patches trying to fill up the missing part of knowledge.
Did you watch the video? Is there something you disagree with?
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-02-2014, 10:59 AM   #22
PeterR
 
PeterR's Avatar
Dojo: Shodokan Honbu (Osaka)
Location: Himeji, Japan
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 3,075
Japan
Offline
Re: Why Locks Don't Work (video)

Quote:
Cliff Judge wrote: View Post
The term I am familiar with for wrist is te kubi - neck of the hand.

But I generally agree with what you are saying - the overall movement of energy in a good kotegaeshi (which is to say....I have discovered it works best in general when I do it this way) comes up from uke's back foot, into nage's hara, and then returns back to uke at some point where they aren't strong. I think what you are describing is basically that.
It is a tekubi waza - certainly.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-02-2014, 11:58 AM   #23
NagaBaba
 
NagaBaba's Avatar
Location: Wild, deep, deadly North
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,148
Offline
Re: Why Wrist Locks Don't Work (video)

Quote:
Cliff Judge wrote: View Post
Did you watch the video? Is there something you disagree with?
Sure thing, I watched video. In static situation (already red flag), in front of attacker (zero understanding of martial interaction) he is trying to twist a wrist (zero understanding of internal structure) on unbalanced body (zero understanding of correct biomechanics) .

Nagababa

ask for divine protection Ame no Murakumo Kuki Samuhara no Ryuo
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-02-2014, 12:11 PM   #24
Keith Larman
Location: California
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 1,566
United_States
Offline
Re: Why Locks Don't Work (video)

Please tell me you guys aren't making arguments about how to do 'kotegaeshi' based on translating the label... Good lord...

  Reply With Quote
Old 12-02-2014, 12:35 PM   #25
Cliff Judge
Dojo: Aikido Shobukan Dojo
Location: Columbia, MD
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 993
United_States
Offline
Re: Why Wrist Locks Don't Work (video)

Quote:
Szczepan Janczuk wrote: View Post
Sure thing, I watched video. In static situation (already red flag), in front of attacker (zero understanding of martial interaction) he is trying to twist a wrist (zero understanding of internal structure) on unbalanced body (zero understanding of correct biomechanics) .
I don't really think you watched the video. What specific points did Mr. Richards make that you disagree with, about why some wrist locks don't work?
  Reply With Quote

Please visit our sponsor:

Long Island Asian Studies Center - Classes: Aiki Budo/Chi Gong/Tai Chi, Author of: Searching For O'Sensei



Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Why do Aikidoka say Aikido does not work? Petlev General 126 01-24-2011 04:24 PM
Pros and Cons of Video Buck Training 10 01-15-2009 05:03 PM
Masahilo Nakazono Shihan - rare 1968 video find. BritishAikido@ntlworld. General 3 12-15-2008 06:04 AM
New Aikido Video Channel BritishAikido@ntlworld. General 5 02-16-2008 12:11 PM
Hand Work rogueenergy General 22 03-29-2005 03:42 PM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 09:10 AM.



vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2014 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
----------
Copyright 1997-2014 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
----------
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
plainlaid-picaresque outchasing-protistan explicantia-altarage seaford-stellionate