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Old 11-12-2001, 12:49 AM   #1
Kami
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Question Different Grading Systems In Ki-society

This is a question for our friends from Ki-Aikido,

Can anyone explain to me why Tohei Sensei uses a Kyu/Dan system for grading in his taijutsu and a Shoden/Chuden/Okuden system for his Ki Development? (Reasons, origins, etc...)
Waiting for your answers
Best

"We are all teachers, and what we teach is what we need to learn, and so we teach it over and over again until we learn it".
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Old 11-13-2001, 02:13 AM   #2
Kami
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Re: Different Grading Systems In Ki-society

Quote:
Originally posted by Kami
Can anyone explain to me why Tohei Sensei uses a Kyu/Dan system for grading in his taijutsu and a Shoden/Chuden/Okuden system for his Ki Development? (Reasons, origins, etc...)

Best
KAMI : I can't believe that...Not an answer from anyone from Ki-Society???

"We are all teachers, and what we teach is what we need to learn, and so we teach it over and over again until we learn it".
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Old 11-13-2001, 04:17 AM   #3
JJF
 
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I'm not from Ki-society, but my guess would be, that Tohei-sensei would prefer to stick to the shoden/chuden/okuden system, but chose to go with the kyu/dan system in the aikido-part to make the grades of his students comparable to other styles, and thereby easier accepted by other organizations.

- Jørgen Jakob Friis

Inspiration - Aspiration - Perspiration
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Old 11-13-2001, 06:25 AM   #4
Thalib
 
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interesting...

I didn't know that... but it is actually a good grading system.

In classical jujutsu schools, there are 3 levels of techniques (not grades):
Shoden - based on the form of the technique as is
Chuden - based on the principle of the technique
Okuden - based on being able to use ki within the technique

I guess we could correlate this with Tohei sensei's grading on ki:
Shoden - understanding unified mind and body through posture or form
Chuden - understanding Ki through unified mind and body
Okuden - understanding Ki

Taijutsu is easier to grade, it could be based on form/technique only (physical side). But for Ki development it's not so easy.

Like the classical jujustsu, Aikido techniques also exist in those types of levels. And knowing which level one exist in, it's actually very subjective of the sensei to determine.

One could be a shodan but still exist in the shoden level. This could mean that the shodan is mostly technique based. Many aikidoka (even yudansha) exist on this level.

With ki no kenkyukai (ki society), not shin-shin-toitsu aikido, technique is not actually needed. The techniques are usually used as a way to test the ki. So in this society, one could understand ki very well but know very little about aikido techniques.

Since ki no kenkyukai is not actually aikido, it can't be graded through the kyu-dan system. The only system that could be applied, is based on one's understanding of ki.

Well... I hope someone form Ki no Kenkyukai or someone from Shin-Shin-toitsu Aikido, or any of Tohei Sensei's student could verify my analysis...

Thanks...
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Old 11-13-2001, 07:47 AM   #5
andrew
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Re: Re: Different Grading Systems In Ki-society

Quote:
Originally posted by Kami


KAMI : I can't believe that...Not an answer from anyone from Ki-Society???


SSSSHHH! It's a secret!!!!
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Old 11-14-2001, 12:40 AM   #6
Kami
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Question Re: interesting II...

Dear friends,

I found many debatable things in Thalib's post.
Anyone from Ki-Society would care to comment, please?
Best
Ubaldo


Quote:
Originally posted by Thalib
I didn't know that... but it is actually a good grading system.

In classical jujutsu schools, there are 3 levels of techniques (not grades):
Shoden - based on the form of the technique as is
Chuden - based on the principle of the technique
Okuden - based on being able to use ki within the technique

I guess we could correlate this with Tohei sensei's grading on ki:
Shoden - understanding unified mind and body through posture or form
Chuden - understanding Ki through unified mind and body
Okuden - understanding Ki

Taijutsu is easier to grade, it could be based on form/technique only (physical side). But for Ki development it's not so easy.

Like the classical jujustsu, Aikido techniques also exist in those types of levels. And knowing which level one exist in, it's actually very subjective of the sensei to determine.

One could be a shodan but still exist in the shoden level. This could mean that the shodan is mostly technique based. Many aikidoka (even yudansha) exist on this level.

With ki no kenkyukai (ki society), not shin-shin-toitsu aikido, technique is not actually needed. The techniques are usually used as a way to test the ki. So in this society, one could understand ki very well but know very little about aikido techniques.

Since ki no kenkyukai is not actually aikido, it can't be graded through the kyu-dan system. The only system that could be applied, is based on one's understanding of ki.

Well... I hope someone form Ki no Kenkyukai or someone from Shin-Shin-toitsu Aikido, or any of Tohei Sensei's student could verify my analysis...

Thanks...

"We are all teachers, and what we teach is what we need to learn, and so we teach it over and over again until we learn it".
Unknown author

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Old 11-14-2001, 04:58 AM   #7
guest1234
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I'm not from the Ki Society, but I'll comment:

It seems like Thalib gave a very thorough answer to the question, in a way that is respectful of a style not his own, an example a lot of folks around here would do well to follow.
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Old 11-14-2001, 05:05 AM   #8
ranZ
 
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Mal, why don't we ask sensei next Sunday

but in the mean time, here's an excerpt from http://www.vakisociety.org/instructors.shtml

Aikido Ranks:

Yonkyu: Fourth Kyu
Sankyu: Third Kyu
Nikyu: Second Kyu
Ikkyu: First Kyu (Brown Belt)
Shodan: First degree black belt
Nidan: Second degree black belt
Sandan: Third degree black belt
Yondan: Fourth degree black belt

Ki Development Ranks:
Chukyu: "intermediate beginner" rank
Jokyu: "advanced beginner" rank
Shoden: First degree "black belt" ki development
Chuden: Second degree "black belt" ki development

one of their instructors
Robert E. Gardner, Senior Instructor, Nidan, Associate Ki Lecturer, Shoden
Is nidan in aikido, but shoden in ki.

Maybe the ki development is about the kiatsu (ki healing) and all, and maybe the way to test is diffrent from ki aikido.
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Old 11-14-2001, 09:53 AM   #9
Thalib
 
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Mal, why don't we ask sensei next Sunday

Ran... I can't make it the next few Sundays (basically until the end of the year). Tell sensei that I'm very sorry that I can't come due to family matters. I'll try to make it after the new year... OK?

By the way... you are still welcome to train at our dojo everytime you're in UPH campus. And you can teach the guys a thing or two from Sunday training.

Sorry guys... using this as a personal messaging service...

Hmmm... starting at yonkyu... that's interesting...
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Old 11-14-2001, 10:47 AM   #10
Jon C Strauss
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Ki Symbol Re: Re: interesting II...

Quote:
Originally posted by Kami
Dear friends,

I found many debatable things in Thalib's post.
Anyone from Ki-Society would care to comment, please?
Best
Ubaldo


Howdy,
Why don't you tell me what you found "debatable" and we'll see if I agree or not.
:-)
I have a few of my own ideas concerning this, most of them having to do with Tohei Sensei's desire to show the importance of Ki training, but I've never been taght the official party line. I liked what Thalib had to say though (and he said it very well, too).

Peace,
JCS
Rocky Mountain Ki Society

I shall allow no man to belittle my soul by making me hate him.
--Booker T. Washington
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Old 11-14-2001, 01:44 PM   #11
Kami
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Re: interesting III...

Quote:
Originally posted by Jon C Strauss
Howdy,
Why don't you tell me what you found "debatable" and we'll see if I agree or not.
:-)
I have a few of my own ideas concerning this, most of them having to do with Tohei Sensei's desire to show the importance of Ki training, but I've never been taght the official party line. I liked what Thalib had to say though (and he said it very well, too).
Peace,
JCS
Rocky Mountain Ki Society
KAMI : Hello, Jon!

It's not that I thought Thalib's post was good or not. As Thalib himself said, he's not a ki-aikidoka, so I was asking for anyone from Ki Society who might know the answers. It does surprise me that, up to know, no one came forward. Even you is the first to admit you only have ideas and that you don't know "the party line" concerning that.
Anyway, the points in Thalib's post that I found debatable (not necessarily wrong) are :

[QUOTE from Thalib] In classical jujutsu schools, there are 3 levels of techniques (not grades)[/b][/quote]


UBALDO : Quite the contrary, there are many levels and titles from one school to another(Cho Mokuruku, Kaiden, Menkyo Kaiden, etc...);


[QUOTE from Thalib] Taijutsu is easier to grade, it could be based on form/technique only (physical side). But for Ki development it's not so easy.[/b][/quote]


UBALDO : Taijutsu in Koryu has the same levels of certification(Okuden, etc...). There seems to be no reason for using it only for Ki Development;


[QUOTE from Thalib] One could be a shodan but still exist in the shoden level. This could mean that the shodan is mostly technique based. Many aikidoka (even yudansha) exist on this level.[/b][/quote]


UBALDO : Shoden means first level, more or less the same as Shodan. There seems to be no great difference in that.

[QUOTE from Thalib] With ki no kenkyukai (ki society), not shin-shin-toitsu aikido, technique is not actually needed. The techniques are usually used as a way to test the ki. So in this society, one could understand ki very well but know very little about aikido techniques. [/b][/quote]


UBALDO : There seems to me there is a great confusion between Ki no Kenkyukai (the organization for spreading of Tohei's form of Aikido) and the names Ki-Society, Ki-Aikido and ShinShin Toitsu Aikido representing the same thing : Tohei's Aikido. One is the organization, the others the art. If understood this way, Ki no Kenkyukai would not be exclusively "for Ki Development", without concern for Ki-Aikido. Of course, Ki Development could be taught WITHOUT Ki-Aikido but I believe that is not the only concern of the organization (Ki no Kenkyukai).

[QUOTE from Thalib] Since ki no kenkyukai is not actually aikido, it can't be graded through the kyu-dan system. The only system that could be applied, is based on one's understanding of ki.[/b][/quote]


UBALDO : Again, Ki no Kenkyukai is not apart from Aikido, it's just the name of the Organization and as I said before, there's no reason it can't use the Kyu/Dan system, "because it's based on understanding of Ki"...


[QUOTE from Thalib] Well... I hope someone form Ki no Kenkyukai or someone from Shin-Shin-toitsu Aikido, or any of Tohei Sensei's student could verify my analysis...[/b][/quote]


UBALDO : I hope so too...After all, not only Thalib but myself as well could be wrong...
Best

"We are all teachers, and what we teach is what we need to learn, and so we teach it over and over again until we learn it".
Unknown author

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Old 11-14-2001, 01:56 PM   #12
tedehara
 
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Re: interesting II...

Quote:
Originally posted by Jon C Strauss


Howdy,
Why don't you tell me what you found "debatable" and we'll see if I agree or not.
:-)
I have a few of my own ideas concerning this, most of them having to do with Tohei Sensei's desire to show the importance of Ki training, but I've never been taght the official party line. I liked what Thalib had to say though (and he said it very well, too).

Peace,
JCS
Rocky Mountain Ki Society
I posted the original question on ki-info group. JCS was the only full reply with the following:

Quote:
...My guess is that he since he wanted some kind of rank structure for both typs of
training, he decided to use the older, koryu-type of of licensure rank for Ki development and the more modern kyu/dan system for Aikido.
By using the older system for Ki development, it clearly (?) indicates who may teach/test for other ranks. Symbolically, perhaps it also helps to demonstrate the primacy of Ki development over Aikido rank....
Since there aren't many Ki Society types on this forum, an explaination is in order. The Ki Society teaches both Ki development and its own style of Aikido, know as Ki-Aikido or Shin Shin Toitsu Aikido (Aikido with Mind and Body Unified). When a member is tested in Aikido technique, they also need a Ki development rank to go along with the Aikido rank they're testing for.

The Ki development ranks and the Aikido ranks are not on a one-to-one basis. So you don't need Chuden Ki development rank to have a Nidan Aikido rank. It is possible for a Ki Society member to have a Ki development rank but no Aikido rank or knowledge of Aikido techniques. It isn't possible for a member to have an Aikido rank but no Ki development rank.

Basically, this idea of Ki development came from Shin Shin Toitsu Do, which was from Tempu Nakamura's Tempukai. Nakamura Sensei was a Japanese equivalent to Positive Mental Attitude thinkers like Norman Vincent Peale or Dale Carnegie. Nakamura Sensei had studied Yoga to cure himself of a chronic disease. Tohei Sensei studied with Tempukai when he was with O Sensei. He utilized Nakamura's theories on mind and body coordination to create a vocabulary and core concepts in teaching both Ki development and Aikido. From what I've been able to determine, Tohei Sensei added several things, including Ki testing, using two fingers to check the stability of a student, to the tools used for Ki development. Ki development itself, would cover things like:
  • Ki exercises
  • Ki meditation
  • Ki breathing
  • Relaxation taiso
  • Kiatsu-ho (accupressure healing)

It is not practice that makes perfect, it is correct practice that makes perfect.
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Old 11-15-2001, 11:57 AM   #13
Jon C Strauss
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Ki Symbol Re: Re: interesting II...

Howdy,

Quote:
Originally posted by tedehara


I posted the original question on ki-info group. JCS was the only full reply with the following:
<snip>[/list]
Aww, thanks for giving so much credit.
I hope we get to meet and train together sometime.

Here is some follow up from the Ki-info group, courtesy of Thomas Malone who trains at Ki no Sato, and Terry Pierce Sensei (Chief Instructor, NJKS):


On 2001.11.15, at 21:39, terry pierce wrote:
>> If I remember correctly the Den word
>> is for transfer of energy or information,
>> as dan is used for black belt

Thomas:
> "Den" means to convey or even simply to
> say something. Thus Okuden means the
> conveyance of the deepest levels of
> teaching the teacher has to offer.

Hope this helps.

Peace,
JCS
RMKS at CSU

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Old 11-15-2001, 03:09 PM   #14
Kami
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TWO SYSTEMS

Ted and Jon,

Thank you very much for teaching us.
best

"We are all teachers, and what we teach is what we need to learn, and so we teach it over and over again until we learn it".
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