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Old 05-24-2007, 07:23 PM   #101
Adam Alexander
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Re: Secret Of Aikido?

Quote:
Nafis Zahir wrote: View Post
So where can I learn about Solo training?
I found a wealth of knowledge practing warm-ups by myself without any help from anyone else. Basic techniques also helped me a great deal.

I didn't have all this drama surrounding figuring out how to do this stuff. I just did it. I experimented in the dojo and out. If I lined up with someone who would not let me play around, I avoided lining up with them next time.

My experience was that solo-training in this respect was a major, major component of figuring it all out. In all, there were only three or four corrections/demonstrations that helped me outside of solo-training...(and then there was the 100's of corrections I seemed to receive that were hindrances...)

As far as hunting down "secrets" from others, I don't think most people pass them out that easy. Think of it like this. Are you quicker to pass a $1 or $100 bill to someone you hardly know? Look out for hucksters desperate for ego gratification.

If you follow arrogance, you'll become arrogant. Hard work tempers humility which is very hard to attain/maintain in any form. For me, the system of kata both showed me the techniques while keeping me somewhat grounded.

Be cautious of shortcuts.
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Old 05-24-2007, 07:49 PM   #102
Jim Sorrentino
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Re: Secret Of Aikido?

Dan,
Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
I think bringing that type of Uchite / shite model into this discussion is apples and oranges and doesn't fit. You see it as same/ same. We will never agree on that.
Maybe we will, if you explain it to me. I have re-read the AJ pieces concerning Sagawa. I have also re-read several of the pieces on Takeda and Ueshiba, among other sources. Takeda, Ueshiba, and Sagawa all seemed to have a part of their practice which used an uke/nage model. How is this different than an uchite/shite method? Why did they use this model? And what is the "original intent in jujutsu" of this model? Original sources (such as interviews with Takeda et al), as well as reasoned arguments, would be welcome.
Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
I had a bunch of folks who know you up a while back and for the first time in many years I did aiki-no-jutsu.
A long time ago, you lectured me about the difference between tatemae and honne. In my experience in the aikido world, this kind of comment ("I've played with people who know you, but I won't tell you who they are.") is what I expect from a child, not a mature adult. In short, it's irrelevant to your point whether the folks who visited you know me or not. If it's relevant, then state their names --- otherwise, why include this kind of thing?
Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
In jujutsu taking breakfalls and rolls for twenty years is just not needed to learn Aiki,
Perhaps --- and yet, Kimura and Sagawa and Ueshiba all found it useful and informative to take feel their teachers as uke. What do you make of that?

Sincerely,

Jim Sorrentino
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Old 05-24-2007, 08:00 PM   #103
DH
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Re: Secret Of Aikido?

Oh gees. Here we go again.
Jim
No harm or insult was meant by my comment. You continue to choose to read into things and almost invariably take a negative spin wherever you can find one. I told those mutual aquantences that I would give it another try because they thought you were a nice guy-and they wanted to see us stop this nonsense. This is what I get yet again from you.
You just continue to make a mess out of every attempt to try to communicate with me. The general tone of your replies, the language you decide to use make your feelings clear. No problems. Lets just stop. We just need to avoid each other both on the net and in person. It isn't working.

Last edited by DH : 05-24-2007 at 08:14 PM.
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Old 05-24-2007, 09:21 PM   #104
Jim Sorrentino
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Re: Secret Of Aikido?

Hi Murray,

Please call me Jim. Thanks for your thoughtful response.

I agree with you about Dan's interpretation of kata. I brought up the issue because I recently re-read Nishioka-sensei's article on the role of uchitachi and shitachi in SMR kata, and it seemed to me that it shed some light on the discussion of the use (and abuse) of uke/nage practice in aikido.

I have not been actively involved in Uechi-ryu since the early to mid-1990's. What little I see of it today is quite disappointing. I spent the summer of 1981 in Okinawa, where I trained at the UR headquarters under Kanei Uechi-sensei (who turned 70 that summer), and at the dojo of Ken Nakamatsu-sensei. I was a shodan in UR at that time, and I had not yet started aikido. Kanei-sensei was soft and powerful at the same time. I met other Okinawan teachers and students who were also quite accomplished. I am familiar with people who feel as though they are made of steel wrapped in rubber --- and who are quite competent at fighting. If you ever met Shinjo Kiyohide, I believe you would not conclude that Uechi Kanbun's skills no longer exist.

How do the solo exercses (kata, if you will) that you now practice work on "the development of 'internal' physical ability"?

As for whether my continued invitation to Dan is an insult to those who have gone to see him, all I can say is that I intend no offense. And I assure you, bringing someone (who I have never even seen!) to my dojo to teach is no small effort. If you have ever organized a seminar, you know what I'm talking about.

Thanks again for your observations! I hope to see you on the mat eventually.

Sincerely,

Jim

Last edited by Jim Sorrentino : 05-24-2007 at 09:27 PM.
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Old 05-25-2007, 04:25 PM   #105
tarik
 
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Re: Secret Of Aikido?

Quote:
Nafis Zahir wrote: View Post
Easier said then done. We don't always get to choose who we can and cannot workout with. We often change partners, so it's hard to avoid certain people.
Let me rephrase. It's easy to do, you just have to make the decision. That can be difficult. Most of us aren't willing because it would offend others to say, "I'm not interested in training with you."

Lest you misunderstand, I advocate training with people who are difficult or make you uncomfortable, but if the training is not productive in some fashion, why waste your lifespan on it? I'd leave the dojo first.

Partners in the dojo that are not capable of providing productive feedback in some fashion, no matter how new, should not exist. If they do, it's usually a problem that starts from the top. I imagine that a part of this stems from the opening up of aikido to 'all comers'. Truly, it should be qualified to 'all comers willing to do the work necessary to really learn and help their partners to learn, especially when it's uncomfortable and scary".

Naturally, even in an ideal environment, not everyone will be the provide the same quality of practice, but why not train with people who all agree to at least try to create that level of practice for one another?

Regards,

Tarik Ghbeish
MASAKATSU AGATSU -- "The true victory of self-mastery."
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Old 05-26-2007, 04:13 PM   #106
DH
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Re: Secret Of Aikido?

Quote:
Jean de Rochefort wrote: View Post
I found a wealth of knowledge practing warm-ups by myself without any help from anyone else. Basic techniques also helped me a great deal.

I didn't have all this drama surrounding figuring out how to do this stuff. I just did it. I experimented in the dojo and out. If I lined up with someone who would not let me play around, I avoided lining up with them next time.

My experience was that solo-training in this respect was a major, major component of figuring it all out. In all, there were only three or four corrections/demonstrations that helped me outside of solo-training...(and then there was the 100's of corrections I seemed to receive that were hindrances...)

As far as hunting down "secrets" from others, I don't think most people pass them out that easy. Think of it like this. Are you quicker to pass a $1 or $100 bill to someone you hardly know? Look out for hucksters desperate for ego gratification.

If you follow arrogance, you'll become arrogant. Hard work tempers humility which is very hard to attain/maintain in any form. For me, the system of kata both showed me the techniques while keeping me somewhat grounded.

Be cautious of shortcuts.
A couple other “words of caution” might be to recognize pitfalls working on your own. There are times when you could spend years going down a wrong road pursuing things internally that are dead ends. I know I did and I know several others who have as well. It can be on the one hand; a slippery slope, on the other, a slow boat to China with a compass off by one degree.

Cautions about secrets from others is good advice as well. Particularly when it involves money or some sort of advertising or aggrandizing of the central teacher. The few guys meeting here and there from aikiweb and ebudo have been doing so with no money and with little fan fair. But then you have the added fear of wasting time by following someone who doesn't know what they are doing either. I dunno I think I've seen more ego and wierdness from teachers who really don't have much skill. Most folks with real skills are rather chilled. Teachers I've met who really don't know the things we have been discussing here are honest about it and ask to learn. Again there is no ego or embarrasment.
So one may consider –in the balance- the arrogance or ignorance of teachers who have essentially not done a good job of teaching anyone the “real” secrets of aikido. and yet they still teach. And ask just why that is?

Kata can keep you grounded? Hmmm.. Actually I think it’s more wrought with a danger of hubris then grappling, Grapplers can have a healthy confident air about them. But its typically an earned confidence.
And last as far as arrogance goes.
Were one to be considering arrogance- one might ask themselves how arrogant it is to think they are able to rediscover what it has taken generations to put together. Or just how slow and really sad to spend so much time reinventing a wheel.
Fools tend to rush in
Where angels fear to tread.
I’d still try to find a teacher

Time to go have dinner by the falls..........
What a beautiful place

Last edited by DH : 05-26-2007 at 04:19 PM.
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Old 05-26-2007, 06:22 PM   #107
Adam Alexander
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Re: Secret Of Aikido?

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
There are times when you could spend years going down a wrong road pursuing things internally that are dead ends. I know I did and I know several others who have as well. It can be on the one hand; a slippery slope, on the other, a slow boat to China with a compass off by one degree.
I was under the impression that martial arts--do's-- are about the journey...not the destination.

Many times, as recently as a few days ago, I discovered I was doing something wrong. The regret I feel for doing it "wrong" is always tempered by the pleasure of "owning" what I've discovered.

How is it, if you've figured things out, you think you were shown the wrong way?

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
I dunno I think I've seen more ego and wierdness from teachers who really don't have much skill. Most folks with real skills are rather chilled.
Ditto.

I'd also add that one of the manifestations of ego that tears at me is the corrections that are disruptive to training. I've said it before, the best teachers I've encountered gave little direction.

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Teachers I've met who really don't know the things we have been discussing here are honest about it and ask to learn. Again there is no ego or embarrasment.
So one may consider --in the balance- the arrogance or ignorance of teachers who have essentially not done a good job of teaching anyone the "real" secrets of aikido. and yet they still teach. And ask just why that is?
First, asking for direction is a sign of weakness.
Second, consistent with the previous statement, who I've considered to be good teachers didn't really "teach" in an American sense. I have never felt like I was being instructed in "internal" anything. Someone would get up there demonstrate a technique. Good instructors let me figure it out. Bad instructors oppressed me with their interpretations of foot here, hand there crap.

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Kata can keep you grounded? Hmmm.. Actually I think it's more wrought with a danger of hubris then grappling, Grapplers can have a healthy confident air about them. But its typically an earned confidence.
I only know the effect on me. I tend to be arrogant. Solo-practice/kata has a quieting effect on me.

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Were one to be considering arrogance- one might ask themselves how arrogant it is to think they are able to rediscover what it has taken generations to put together. Or just how slow and really sad to spend so much time reinventing a wheel.
I don't know. It hurts a little when you see others who's technique contains the things that you've discovered. Then you get over it and realize that you're a part of a special group who is able to make their own wheels.

No one is rebuilding from scratch the product of generations. We have directions that are vague and lead us to find the concept of the wheel.

For me, the question is whether you trust reputable organizations and instructors who have been entrusted with those directions to help mold you into a person who is able to handle possession of that wheel, or do you seek out a clearer set of instructions without regard to the harm that it might cause you?

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
I'd still try to find a teacher
Sure, but I'd be cautious of who promotes themselves as a teacher.
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Old 05-27-2007, 08:25 AM   #108
Martin Ruedas
 
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Re: Secret Of Aikido?

well, I believe there's no secret. only narrow views. so narrow we overlook the things that is thought to be a secret. it's just there waiting to be discovered through our own personal effort. my sensei tells us that aikido is also about self-discovery. through your every training, you discover something new and i think each discovery leads to another.
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Old 05-27-2007, 11:02 AM   #109
dps
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Re: Secret Of Aikido?

At 2:27 in the video the secret to all martial arts is revealed.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lkDBflFtPIw

David
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Old 05-27-2007, 04:38 PM   #110
Dan Austin
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Re: Secret Of Aikido?

Quote:
David Skaggs wrote: View Post
At 2:27 in the video the secret to all martial arts is revealed.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lkDBflFtPIw

David
You missed the part at 2:46.
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Old 05-27-2007, 08:16 PM   #111
dps
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Re: Secret Of Aikido?

Quote:
Dan Austin wrote: View Post
You missed the part at 2:46.
First good martial arts then best martial arts.
David
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