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Old 05-22-2007, 07:26 AM   #51
Chuck Clark
 
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Re: Secret Of Aikido?

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
1. Isn't MMA training or even boxing also about mutual benefit. To that end they resist and offer uncooperative actions with quick change ups in order to...
2. Help you better by the other guy being better in his role- as resister. Thus it is about....
3. Them seeking to help make you more, by offering more reistence. Which is not done at the others expense, but rather both parties....
4. Seek out their own ends, which are to win, and in doing so they mutually assist and help each other find and build the best in each other.

So where does MMA training diverge and become less then aikido training? or even different in it goals?
Dan,

I don't see anywhere in George's post that you quoted in your post and responded to with your points above that even mentioned MMA training or its methods. In fact, I don't see any reference to MMA in any of the recent posts leading up to George's post. As far as I'm concerned what is being discussed has nothing to do with MMA. If you want to discuss the differences between other training and MMA or the relative similarities of MMA and any other training, why don't you start a new subject thread?

Chuck Clark
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Old 05-22-2007, 07:39 AM   #52
DH
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Re: Secret Of Aikido?

Chuck
I was trying to state that cooperative training exists everywhere to a degree. Also that non cooperation in training is as uplifting and beneficial. As such, both can be done in aikido as they are elsewhere. So neither are an aspect of aikido that is unique to it, nor anything that is a secret of it.
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Old 05-22-2007, 07:42 AM   #53
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Re: Secret Of Aikido?

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Chuck
I was trying to state that cooperative training exists everywhere to a degree. Also that non cooperation in training is as uplifting and beneficial. As such, both can be done in aikido as they are elsewhere. So neither are an aspect of aikido that is unique to it, nor anything that is a secret of it.
This post just did exactly what you intended to do. Thanks for claryifying. I agree with you.

Chuck Clark
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Old 05-22-2007, 07:48 AM   #54
DH
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Re: Secret Of Aikido?

Sorry about that
I deleted a substantial portion that expanded on that theme. and discussed more of what I think Aikido can be once again as a more viable martial oriented art with power. It was just too long. What to keep in what to keep out. You know how it goes. We can accomplish more in an hour in person then a year on the net. And be clearer, more expansive and with nuance, and a wink and a smile to boot!!
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Old 05-22-2007, 08:39 AM   #55
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Re: Secret Of Aikido?

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Chuck
I was trying to state that cooperative training exists everywhere to a degree. Also that non cooperation in training is as uplifting and beneficial. As such, both can be done in aikido as they are elsewhere. So neither are an aspect of aikido that is unique to it, nor anything that is a secret of it.
No disagreement on my part...
- George

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Old 05-22-2007, 09:19 AM   #56
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Re: Secret Of Aikido?

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Sorry about that
I deleted a substantial portion that expanded on that theme. and discussed more of what I think Aikido can be once again as a more viable martial oriented art with power. It was just too long. What to keep in what to keep out. You know how it goes. We can accomplish more in an hour in person then a year on the net. And be clearer, more expansive and with nuance, and a wink and a smile to boot!!
Yep, see what you get when you delete substantial portions and expansions on a theme? That'll learn you. LOL! next time, maybe if you delete insubstantial portions? After all, if they're insubstantial, nobody will miss them, right?

Eh, back to topic, the thread has been a great read. I especially noted the gems in post #42. Clark sensei stated, "Find a teacher that teaches that way, pay attention, work hard, don't quit and receive the transmission."

Mark
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Old 05-22-2007, 10:42 AM   #57
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Re: Secret Of Aikido?

Post 49 was a joke, right ?

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Old 05-22-2007, 10:57 AM   #58
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Re: Secret Of Aikido?

Ah, no...it was not a joke.

Best,
Ron

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Old 05-22-2007, 11:27 AM   #59
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Re: Secret Of Aikido?

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
I was trying to state that cooperative training exists everywhere to a degree. Also that non cooperation in training is as uplifting and beneficial. As such, both can be done in aikido as they are elsewhere. So neither are an aspect of aikido that is unique to it, nor anything that is a secret of it.
Also agreed. Cooperation at early stages to learn and noncooperation at a later stage to train. Not unique in any art. Aikido is often criticized for only doing the first (perhaps there is too much emphasis on it) and seldom recognized for the later.

Also agree with the need for solo work to get your own part of the dance down before you connect, enter, and blend with another.

So far, no secrets.

Lynn Seiser PhD
Yondan Aikido & FMA/JKD
We do not rise to the level of our expectations, but fall to the level of our training. Train well. KWATZ!
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Old 05-22-2007, 12:34 PM   #60
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Re: Secret Of Aikido?

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Perhaps this is the reason so many hippies with communal notions, empowerment, and tribal animist quasi-religious mumbo jumbo have successfully infiltrated and ruined Aikido as a true Budo. Making it a mockery in the martial arts.
Infiltrated? It was there to begin with - read just about anything written by Morihei Ueshiba.

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Secret of Aikido as spiritual
Most of the talk of the superiority of "aikido in daily life" as a martial pursuit married to interpersonal relationships is without merit. I think someones aikido has little to do with how they express themselves in the world. Sure folks may have been made aware of better ways to communicate and function from martial arts. But in what proportion to other martial arts? As compared to what other activities? I have heard just as many testimonials from people who have learned to communicate and function better through coordinating boy scouts and community events. I have to organize and team-lead entire groups of committees and move their efforts forward in an often challenging community setting. But clearly the best way to learn to do that, is in doing that- not in a dojo.
Not at all clear, IMO. Christians spend time in prayer to improve them selves spiritually, Buddhists meditate - so for those millions (billions) of people it it is not at all clear that some kind of disciplined practice is a waste of time.

That leading boy scouts may be a valid way of making you a better person doesn't invalidate other methods of doing so.

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
In the end, the real world and human skills really have little to do with martial arts. One should consider how you would equate UFC chaps who are schoolteachers and volunteers, with AIkido?
MMA amateurs who are volunteers with DR men who were pillars of their communities with Aikido shihan who were drunks and notorious lechers with female students?
And if I equate Aikido chaps who are pillars of their communities with ministers and priests who were con-men and child molesters does it therefore follow that Christian values and ideas are of little or no worth?

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Where would the excellent men and women in Aikido stack up with the excellent men and women in any other pursuit? Probably about the same I'd bet. The real majority of the masses of MA ers are all nobody special. They are working stiffs just trying to make ends meet.
You can't make sense out of Aikido being a superior model in character building- because it makes no sense to begin with. People are people and you find all manner of men and women in all walks of life.
With any large group of people it's pretty hard to beat the curve - I could make the above argument for just about any religion or discipline that you care to name, does that mean that all religions and spiritual disciplines are worthless? Does the existance of violence in India invalidate Ghandi's words and ideas?

Best,

Chris

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Old 05-22-2007, 12:50 PM   #61
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Re: Secret Of Aikido?

Chris, I congratulate you for being much more patient than me and taking the time to write an elaborate response to one of the silliest posts i've read in a while.

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Old 05-22-2007, 12:59 PM   #62
Erik Johnstone
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Re: Secret Of Aikido?

Quote:
Ludwig Neveu wrote: View Post
Chris, I congratulate you for being much more patient than me and taking the time to write an elaborate response to one of the silliest posts i've read in a while.
Perhaps you should have read Post # 52, and then Chuck Clark's and George Ledyard's replies in Post #'s 53 and 55, respectively.

Erik Johnstone
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Old 05-22-2007, 01:55 PM   #63
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Secret Of Aikido?

Not to mention that calling the post silly is just...oh, I'm sure you can figure it out...

Best,
Ron

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Old 05-22-2007, 02:05 PM   #64
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Re: Secret Of Aikido?

I read it carefully and agreed with it. It was the rest of the content of post 49 about which I objected.
Looking for "the secret of aikido" does not involve, as Dan suggests, that aikido practitioners claim its superiority over other endeavours because of its spiritual component.
And concerning the budo part in the end, all I see is just general criticism of current practices, dismissal of people's efforts and research.

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Old 05-22-2007, 02:26 PM   #65
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Re: Secret Of Aikido?

Quote:
Christopher Li wrote: View Post

Christians spend time in prayer to improve them selves spiritually, Buddhists meditate - so for those millions (billions) of people it it is not at all clear that some kind of disciplined practice is a waste of time.
That leading boy scouts may be a valid way of making you a better person doesn't invalidate other methods of doing so.
And if I equate Aikido chaps who are pillars of their communities with ministers and priests who were con-men and child molesters does it therefore follow that Christian values and ideas are of little or no worth?
With any large group of people it's pretty hard to beat the curve - I could make the above argument for just about any religion or discipline that you care to name, does that mean that all religions and spiritual disciplines are worthless? Does the existance of violence in India invalidate Ghandi's words and ideas?

Best,

Chris
All you've done is restate my point Chris. Whether it be Aikido, Judo, DR, Karate, boy scouts, what have you, there is good and bad in all. I seriously doubt we would find statistical advantage of character building from one to the next. That the spiritual aspects are no more, no less than in other pursuits.
Hence there is no "secret of Aikido" there.

The other potential "secret" (the name of the thread) may be more of a kept or whitheld physical knowledge. Were one to be considering there was indeed some sort of secret- then it is the physical knowledge that may have more merit were it explored. In other words when placed in context of the larger point of there being "secrets" in Aikido I say there is knowledge to be found in Aikido that is not widely known..that being Ueshiba's internal skills.

I found this interesting
Quote:
Christopher Li wrote: View Post
Infiltrated? It was there to begin with - read just about anything written by Morihei Ueshiba.
Except for the fact that his spiritual leaning were grounded in physical skills. I wonder if many or most are reaching for one while not very conversecent in the other-not that need or even care to be.

Last edited by DH : 05-22-2007 at 02:38 PM.
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Old 05-22-2007, 02:26 PM   #66
Jim Sorrentino
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Re: Secret Of Aikido?

Hello Erik,

Quote:
Erik Johnstone wrote: View Post
Perhaps you should have read Post # 52, and then Chuck Clark's and George Ledyard's replies in Post #'s 53 and 55, respectively.
I am sure you agree that Dan's post # 52 is quite different, in both tone and substance, than what he said in #49. When one removes from post #49 Dan's paeans to MMA, his innuendoes against unnamed aikido shihan, and his diatribes against "most everyone" practicing aikido now, what is left? Praise of solo training exercises which he generally won't describe (although, in fairness to Dan, he has mentioned a couple of them, such as rolling the heavy bag across his back and outstretched arms).

Now if only Dan would deign to comment upon whether he believes that kata training, in the spirit that Nishioka-sensei describes in the article I quoted (in post #37), is part of the way one may acquire the skills of Ueshiba Morihei (in kind, if not in degree). He seems to think that it isn't:
Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Learning it though Kata is the source........... of all the problems.
But maybe I am misreading him.
Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
We can accomplish more in an hour in person then a year on the net. And be clearer, more expansive and with nuance, and a wink and a smile to boot!!
Yup. That's why my invitation to Dan is still open.

Sincerely,

Jim
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Old 05-22-2007, 02:28 PM   #67
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Re: Secret Of Aikido?

Hi Ludwig,

Although I disagree with what you just said, I can respect it. It has content and merrit...unlike just calling it silly...

I think in some ways you might misunderstand Dan. I don't believe he said (or at least meant) "that [all]aikido practitioners claim its superiority over other endeavours because of its spiritual component". O think he would say either some, or a lot...and there is clear evidence even here on this board that the word some is justified.

Quote:
And concerning the budo part in the end, all I see is just general criticism of current practices, dismissal of people's efforts and research.
I guess my GF is right...I always see the glass as half full. To me, that was an exhortation for us aikidoka to dig deeper, and go further...IN.

Best,
Ron

Last edited by Ron Tisdale : 05-22-2007 at 02:32 PM.

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Old 05-22-2007, 02:51 PM   #68
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Re: Secret Of Aikido?

Fair enough.
As for the secret of aikido, it seems to me it's one of those "hidden in plain sight" teachings. I exposed my own take on it in post 5, because I think that short sentence has very profound meaning, that has serious implications in physical training, mental state and philosophy for practitioners.

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Old 05-22-2007, 03:04 PM   #69
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Re: Secret Of Aikido?

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
All you've done is restate my point Chris. Whether it be Aikido, Judo, DR, Karate, boy scouts, what have you, there is good and bad in all. I seriously doubt we would find statistical advantage of character building from one to the next. That the spiritual aspects are no more, no less than in other pursuits.
Hence there is no "secret of Aikido" there.
I don't remember if anybody cited the spiritual aspects as a "secret" (maybe they did), but the spiritual aspects and concepts are certainly emphasized more in Aikido than they are in Judo, etc., and are quite a bit different in in many other respects as well. Note that saying something is "different" and "superior" are not the same thing. Christianity is certainly more "spiritual" than, say, bowling, but that doesn't necessarily make it better or worse, just something of a different nature.

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Except for the fact that his spiritual leaning were grounded in physical skills. I wonder if many or most are reaching for one while not very conversecent in the other-not that need or even care to be.
Omoto-kyo is grounded in physical skill? Was he doing push-ups while he was reading "Reiki Monogatari"? If you're saying that theoretical study needs to be accompanied by some kind of discipline or practice then I agree, but that's not the same as saying that the theory itself is just "mumbo-jumbo".

Best,

Chris

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Old 05-22-2007, 03:21 PM   #70
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Re: Secret Of Aikido?

Quote:
Christopher Li wrote: View Post
I don't remember if anybody cited the spiritual aspects as a "secret" (maybe they did), but the spiritual aspects and concepts are certainly emphasized more in Aikido than they are in Judo, etc., and are quite a bit different in in many other respects as well. Note that saying something is "different" and "superior" are not the same thing. Christianity is certainly more "spiritual" than, say, bowling, but that doesn't necessarily make it better or worse, just something of a different nature.

Omoto-kyo is grounded in physical skill? Was he doing push-ups while he was reading "Reiki Monogatari"? If you're saying that theoretical study needs to be accompanied by some kind of discipline or practice then I agree, but that's not the same as saying that the theory itself is just "mumbo-jumbo".

Best,

Chris
Where did I say -omoto kyo- was mumbo jumbo______________"
Where did I say omoto kyo was a physical skill?__________________

I was addressing the composit, new age, hodge podge spiritual aspects you so often read about here and elsewhere.
No sense in going back and forth. None of the above was the central point.
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Old 05-22-2007, 04:04 PM   #71
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Re: Secret Of Aikido?

Quote:
Nafis Zahir wrote: View Post
Anyone have ANY idea what the secret is or could be?
Sifu Kevin Seaman once put it like this: "There is a secret to the martial arts and I'll tell you what it is: Train your butt off." It was at a JKD seminar, but some ideas are universal IMHO.
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Old 05-22-2007, 05:38 PM   #72
Erik Johnstone
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Re: Secret Of Aikido?

Quote:
I am sure you agree that Dan's post # 52 is quite different, in both tone and substance, than what he said in #49.
Jim:

Hey there! Yes, his post was different; but I think that he clarified himself in #52 rather well .

Ron:

Nice post.

Respects,

Erik
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Old 05-22-2007, 08:49 PM   #73
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Re: Secret Of Aikido?

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
The real secret to making Aikido work is in solo training. To build power in yourself.
Dan,

Very interesting comments, here and elsewhere. Can you describe the nature of this solo training, and where one can find information on it? Thanks.
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Old 05-22-2007, 09:55 PM   #74
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Re: Secret Of Aikido?

Quote:
Dan Austin wrote: View Post
Dan,

Very interesting comments, here and elsewhere. Can you describe the nature of this solo training, and where one can find information on it? Thanks.
Search function
Shiko/Sumo Stomp, Silk Reeling, Iron Wire, San Chin, take your pick.
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Old 05-22-2007, 10:07 PM   #75
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Re: Secret Of Aikido?

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
George
I numbered your comments for clarity in discussion

Perhaps today the real secret of Aikido- is that most everyone in it is not doing Aikido. Instead they are involved in a newly minted concoction of cooperative play that was at it's inception, a caricature. In true definition: an imitation or copy so distorted or inferior as to be ludicrous.. Players mimicing and playing out "roles" to actuate an empty copy of what the founder looked like. It will never get them to the state of power Ueshiba had.
Were Ueshiba's skills the true goal-modern aikido is ill-equipped to get anyone there. And may in fact be the worst thing one could do were they trying to get to the founders skills. But many will feel warm and fuzzy and make allot of friends doing it.
I agree with this statement, however, what is the solution? If you are a yudansha, and give a more realistic and "non-cooperative" attack to another yudansha, they get upset and think that you are jerking them around. So then they decide to not cooperate when they are uke, and now you have a power (or should I say muscle) struggle.

How can we train and learn the "secret" under these conditions? There may be one or two people in your dojo that you can seriously train with, but you can't always partner up with them. I say this because, whatever the secret is, I'm sure that it is something we just can't know, but something we must be able to "feel" as well.

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