Welcome to AikiWeb Aikido Information
AikiWeb: The Source for Aikido Information
AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information.

Sections
home
aikido articles
columns

Discussions
forums
aikiblogs

Databases
dojo search
seminars
image gallery
supplies
links directory

Reviews
book reviews
video reviews
dvd reviews
equip. reviews

News
submit
archive

Miscellaneous
newsletter
rss feeds
polls
about

Follow us on



Home > AikiWeb Aikido Forums
Go Back   AikiWeb Aikido Forums > General

Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history, humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced features available, you will need to register first. Registration is absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 05-16-2007, 08:37 AM   #26
Haowen Chan
Location: Pittsburgh
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 91
United_States
Offline
Re: Secret Of Aikido?

Something like this?

"My aikido continued to progress as I continued with my misogi and zazen. After six months or so I was even sent to teach at places like the military police academy in Nakano and the private school (juku) of Shumei Okawa. No one except Sensei could throw me. It took me only half a year to be able to achieve that degree of ability, so I think taking five or ten years is too slow." - Koichi Tohei, interview in Aikido Journal.

I would take this kind of statement with a grain of salt... if a natural talent like Koichi Tohei can get something after a lifetime of foundations in the martial arts + ki breathing/meditation and full time training in aikido for 6 months, a normal mortal starting late in life taking several decades in part-time training is not too shabby.

It's like Lance Armstrong saying that since he can win the Tour de France seven times, you should be able to win it at least once.

By the way in the interview he IS talking about developing ki-power, not some kind of technical secret.

Last edited by Haowen Chan : 05-16-2007 at 08:40 AM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-16-2007, 10:38 AM   #27
aikilouis
Location: Germany
Join Date: Nov 2000
Posts: 218
France
Offline
Re: Secret Of Aikido?

Lance Armstrong's secret lies in blood samples.

  Reply With Quote
Old 05-16-2007, 10:50 AM   #28
Dirk Hanss
 
Dirk Hanss's Avatar
Dojo: Aikidoschule Trier
Location: Merzkirchen
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 471
Germany
Offline
Re: Secret Of Aikido?

Doka of the Day - May 16, 2007
Except for blending with the void,
There is no way to understand
The Way of Aiki.

- Morihei Ueshiba
That is all the secret. There might be someone, who can get it in 2 weeks, some will need some 10, 20, 30, or 40 years, and for most of us it is just unreachable, we just can continue to proceed on our Way of Aiki.

Whatever I think I understand, is void a few months of training later. i used the same word, but it is not nearly blending with the void as above. Maybe it is as close as it sounds and it is just me to be too blind to see it.

best regards

Dirk
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-16-2007, 02:09 PM   #29
Nafis Zahir
 
Nafis Zahir's Avatar
Dojo: Bucks County Aikido
Location: Pennsylvania
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 425
United_States
Offline
Re: Secret Of Aikido?

Besides the fact that the time of understanding may vary from person to person, can it be explained in words?

  Reply With Quote
Old 05-16-2007, 03:33 PM   #30
Erick Mead
 
Erick Mead's Avatar
Dojo: Big Green Drum (W. Florida Aikikai)
Location: West Florida
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 2,502
United_States
Offline
Re: Secret Of Aikido?

Quote:
Nafis Zahir wrote:
Besides the fact that the time of understanding may vary from person to person, can it be explained in words?
Quote:
Dirk Hanss wrote: View Post
Quote:
Doka of the Day - May 16, 2007 wrote:
Except for blending with the void,
There is no way to understand
The Way of Aiki.
That is all the secret.
Quote:
Musashi, "The Void" wrote:
What is called the spirit of the void is where there is nothing. It is not included in man's knowledge. Of course the void is nothingness. By knowing things that exist, you can know that which does not exist. That is the void.
...
With your spirit settled, accumulate practice day by day, and hour by hour. Polish the twofold spirit heart and mind, and sharpen the twofold gaze perception and sight. When your spirit is not in the least clouded, when the clouds of bewilderment clear away, there is the true void.... Then you will come to think of things in a wide sense and, taking the void as the Way, you will see the Way as void.
My take on the Void is this.

To mobilize force (offensively or defensively) for your body to act your mind must will to move. That will is not merely an expression of the mind but equally an expression of the body, and without which one cannot really be said to have willed anything. Knowledge and action are one. (I would deny that will is primarily conscious, for what it is worth).

To mobilize force, I must concentrate energy in some areas and necessarily diminish it in others. I create holes from which I draw that energy and create structure to express it in a particular direction, or create structures so as to receive energy, and have empty places to dispose it.

If I will not to be moved I dispose energy equally, everywhere, with no holes. There is no break in symmetry and therefore no opening or line of relative advantage (and consequently no concentration of my energy anywhere, either). Anywhere within that field one cannot easily, except with enough energy to lift you bodily, be moved.

There is a debate, referenced above, about whether the latter or the former is aikido or the "true budo".

"To move" or "not to be moved" -- that is the question?

Not actually. The fact is that neither one of them is, although the necessary place can be reached from either perspective of practice.

There is a third regime, a vanishingly small, infinitesimal regime precisely between the two of them.

It is the tangent, the place neither within nor outside the curve or the circle. It is the normal (right angle) to the curve, neither adding to nor taking away, directly, from the magnitude of energy in the curve, but capable of fundamentally changing its shape, and by that means profoundly altering its energy as well as its structure.

There are an infinite number of arbitrarily close approximations of the tangent and the normal to the curve, and they are all actually wrong. However closely they do approximate, there remains a place where your opponent and you are in conflict and therefore -- in that place -- you may be overcome by a superior concentration of force, timing or distance.

There is one, and only one, true tangent but it can be formed anywhere along the entire curve. There is one, and only one, normal (right) angle, and it can be formed anywhere along the entire curve.

When you understand this, when you see this occurring, when you perceive it in your body and can move in response to its call -- you can move infinitely within those infinitesimal, empty spaces.

It is the Void.

There is, quite literally, NOTHING there with which your opponent can possibly oppose you, and every move you make within that vanishing space profoundly alters every move he makes outside of it, even though you never oppose him at all. There is lots of it lying around in the opponent's structure and energy. With training you see and find more and more of it without having to even look for it. You begin to know it at a touch or a glance, and you get better and better at that perception.

The more I train -- the more I realize nothing at all.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-16-2007, 07:52 PM   #31
statisticool
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 534
United_States
Offline
Re: Secret Of Aikido?

Quote:
Nafis Zahir wrote: View Post
Anyone have ANY idea what the secret is or could be?
Check out my sig. I think that is the secret.

A secret of internal strength?:
"Let your weight from the crotch area BE in his hands."
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-16-2007, 08:12 PM   #32
Mark Uttech
Dojo: Yoshin-ji Aikido of Marshall
Location: Wisconsin
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 1,218
Offline
Re: Secret Of Aikido?

Actually it is a good idea not to be greedy for secrets.

In gassho,

Mark
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-16-2007, 08:17 PM   #33
dps
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 2,170
Offline
Re: Secret Of Aikido?

Quote:
Nafis Zahir wrote: View Post
I "Once O-Sensei told me one day clearly and emphatically that the truth of aikido could be caught in a very short moment of time. If you catch the secret," he said. "You can do what I do in three months."
Maybe the joke is on us. Maybe there is no secret and O-Sensei just said that to keep us all guessing.

David
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-17-2007, 07:51 AM   #34
SeiserL
 
SeiserL's Avatar
Dojo: Roswell Budokan, Kyushinkan Dojo, Aikido World Alliance
Location: Roswell, GA USA
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 3,720
United_States
Offline
Re: Secret Of Aikido?

IMHO, there is no secret. It is simply the synergy of everything being opnely taught applied at the same time on a physical, mental, and spiritual level.

Lynn Seiser PhD
Yondan Aikido & FMA/JKD
We do not rise to the level of our expectations, but fall to the level of our training. Train well. KWATZ!
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-17-2007, 08:01 AM   #35
DH
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,394
United_States
Offline
Re: Secret Of Aikido?

Quote:
David Skaggs wrote: View Post
Maybe the joke is on us. Maybe there is no secret and O-Sensei just said that to keep us all guessing.

David
Or the joke is still on most everyone -in that it is not taught or even known in most places.
Here's a thought.
1. If you don't know, how do you know you don't know?

Which leads most to thinking there isn't one in the first place.

Which leads me back to either
2. Aikido was never really that effective in the first place and it was all just bullshit all along.
or
3. It was effective and there is a way to do it far more effectively as it WAS done in the first place.

Thinking that only Ueshiba got it and no one else can is the first mistake.
I'd say if you can't stop an equal in judo or jujutsu or at least give them one hell of a hard time-you are in the #1 group. Overall, it is quite clear that most can't and therefore there is something they don't know. Hence its at least a secret to them.

It may be safe to say if one doesn't have an extensive solo regimen then they don't know what they're missing in the first place and never will.
Learning it though Kata is the source...........

of all the problems.

Last edited by DH : 05-17-2007 at 08:10 AM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-17-2007, 08:16 AM   #36
dps
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 2,170
Offline
Re: Secret Of Aikido?

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
1. If you don't know, how do you know you don't know?
I made a list of all the things I don't know.

I agree with Lynn Seiser, " IMHO, there is no secret. It is simply the synergy of everything being opnely taught applied at the same time on a physical, mental, and spiritual level."

If you do the practice the rest will follow. The "secrets" will be revealed, because they are not hidden, some of us just haven't learned them yet.

David
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-17-2007, 12:17 PM   #37
Jim Sorrentino
  AikiWeb Forums Contributing Member
 
Jim Sorrentino's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido of Northern Virginia, Aikido Shobukan Dojo
Location: Washington, DC
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 221
Offline
Re: Secret Of Aikido?

Hello Dan,

Welcome back!
Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Thinking that only Ueshiba got it and no one else can is the first mistake.
I completely agree with you about this.

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
I'd say if you can't stop an equal in judo or jujutsu or at least give them one hell of a hard time-you are in the #1 group. Overall, it is quite clear that most can't and therefore there is something they don't know. Hence its at least a secret to them.
Please define "equal". Does it really make sense to compare the experience an aikidoka, who does not participate in matches, with that of a judoka/jujutsuka, who does? If so, why? And if so, why should the comparison be limited to whether the aikidoka can "stop" or at least slow down the judoka/jujutsuka? Why is that the only evidence we should accept of the aikidoka's understanding of "the secret" of aikido? Further, if one judoka/jujutsuka stops or slows down another "equal" judoka/jujutsuka, does that automatically mean that he or she possesses a deeper understanding of the secret? Why?

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
It may be safe to say if one doesn't have an extensive solo regimen then they don't know what they're missing in the first place and never will.
Learning it though Kata is the source...........

of all the problems.
I assume that by kata you mean what Dianne Skoss says in Footnote 2 to Uchidachi & Shidachi, by Nishioka Tsuneo (freely available at http://koryu.com/library/tnishioka1.html#b2):
This term [kata bujutsu] is Japanese shorthand for old-style martial arts that are practiced using kata (see Karl Friday's "Kabala in Motion" (Sword & Spirit, page 151) for a complete discussion of the kata training method) as the primary teaching tool. Unlike karate kata, in which moves are practiced solo, kata bujutsu consists of kata practiced in pairs, one attacking (shidachi) and one receiving (uchidachi). This can be done with the same weapons (i.e. tachi versus tachi) or different ones (jo versus tachi, naginata versus kusarigama, etc.). The classical Japanese arts tend to focus almost exclusively on kata-style training, while many of the modern budo incorporate kata as only one component of a larger curriculum.
If my assumption is correct, then I ask you, what do you make of the accompanying article by Nishioka-sensei? For the convenience of the reader, I have excerpted the relevant parts of the article below. What if we aikidoka were to substitute uke for uchidachi, and nage for shidachi, and then practice in the spirit that Nishioka-sensei urges? (From my own experience, I learned a lot by being thrown by Saotome-sensei, Ikeda-sensei, and other teachers and fellow-students who, in my opinion, train with this spirit.) This kind of kata practice is not a substitute for solo training (which I agree is crucial), but is a complementary part of our study.

Also, I note that Nishioka-sensei's teacher "constantly took the role of uchidachi.". As both Ellis Amdur and Stan Pranin have stated elsewhere, the failure of aikido teachers to continue to take ukemi as part of their teaching and training poses problems for the present and future of aikido.

Below are the excerpts of the article by Nishioka-sensei. Brackets enclosing ellipses indicate text that I have not included. Text in brackets is my paraphrasing of Nishioka-sensei's words.

I look forward to your comments.

Sincerely,

Jim Sorrentino
One of the most profound expressions of rei lies in the interaction between uchidachi, the one who receives the technique, and shidachi, the one who does the technique. Unfortunately, even teachers often misunderstand the subtleties of uchidachi and shidachi in kata training. They fail to pass on to their students the difference in intent inherent in these two roles. Particularly in the classical traditions, the roles of uchidachi and shidachi are quite distinctive. Each has its own unique psychological viewpoint. It is essential that this distinct quality always be maintained. I believe that the difference in these two roles is the defining characteristic of kata training. Recently, I've come to the realization that it is not even worth training unless both partners properly understand this.

When an outsider watches kata, it appears that uchidachi loses and shidachi wins. This is intentional. But there's much more to it than that. Uchidachi must have the spirit of a nurturing parent. Uchidachi leads shidachi by providing a true attack; this allows shidachi to learn correct body displacement, combative distancing, proper spirit, and the perception of opportunity. A humble spirit is as necessary as correct technique for uchidachi. Deceit, arrogance, and a patronizing attitude must never be allowed in practice. Uchidachi's mission is vital. In the past, this role was only performed by senior practitioners who were capable of performing accurate technique and who possessed the right spirit and understanding of the role. Uchidachi must provide an example of clean, precise cutting lines and correct targeting, and must also convey focused intensity and an air of authority.

If uchidachi is the parent or teacher, then shidachi is the child or disciple. The goal is to acquire the skills presented by uchidachi's technique. Unfortunately, students often act as though they want to test their skills against those of the higher-ranked uchidachi. They consider this competition to be their practice. In fact, this leads to neither better technique, nor greater spiritual development, because the correct relationship between uchidachi and shidachi has been obscured. It is the repetition of the techniques in this parent/child or senior/junior relationship that allows for the growth of the spirit through the practice of technique.

The roles of uchidachi as senior and shidachi as junior are preserved regardless of the actual respective experience levels of the pair. Kata must be practiced so that trainees learn both to give and to receive. This is what makes technical improvement and spiritual development possible. Unfortunately, in jo practice, people sometimes think that they practice both roles merely to memorize the sequential movements of the two different weapons, tachi and jo. There are even some instructors who teach that the aim of Shinto Muso-ryu jojutsu is to learn how to defeat a sword with a stick. This is an error. If it continues, kata bujutsu may die out, because both the technique and the spirit of uchidachi will not improve.

These days there are fewer people who can perform the role of uchidachi correctly. I believe that bujutsu evolved into budo only by maintaining the idea of uchidachi and shidachi. This idea is a fundamental characteristic of the classical bujutsu. Although the Japanese arts, such as kenjutsu, iaijutsu, and jojutsu, have been transformed from "jutsu" into "do," if the proper roles in training are not preserved, the "do" arts will veer off in the wrong direction. Obviously, there is a difference between attempting to preserve the proper distinction between uchidachi and shidachi yet not achieving perfection, and a complete lack of effort or understanding about the distinction. The existence of the intent or the quality of the intent is manifested in daily practice and actions. Those who have the eyes and experience to see can tell the difference.

However, my concern is that these days fewer people understand this concept. In the future there will be fewer still. People seem no longer to recognize that the existence of uchidachi and shidachi is the essence of budo training.

[…] There is no way to transmit the kata of the Japanese classical traditions without a proper understanding of this spirit of giving and receiving. It is not right for seniors in the uchidachi role to mistreat, bully, or torment their juniors. On the contrary, their job is to guide and educate. In the same sense, it is also terrible to see shidachi assume an attitude that is essentially patricidal, and attempt to destroy the uchidachi. I can only say that such a spirit should never exist.

[…] [My teacher] constantly took the role of uchidachi. Even with beginners, he never relaxed his attention. He was always serious with everyone. He was never arrogant and never lorded it over another person. I believe that this attitude is the most important teaching of kata bujutsu, and [my teacher's] training was a wonderful example. This spirit is difficult to nurture, not only in jojutsu but in other situations as well. It is entirely different from a senior student or teacher showing off his skills to his juniors by treating them with arrogance and condescension. It is so easy to become trapped in a cycle of interaction that causes shidachi to react by attempting to compete with uchidachi. The guidance of a master teacher is absolutely essential to avoid this situation.

Uchidachi teaches shidachi by sacrificing himself, training as if he were going to be killed at any moment; this self-sacrifice embodies the spirit of teachers and parents. Kata training is of no use without understanding this. It is this spirit that allows shidachi to grow and polish his or her own spirit. Kata bujutsu teaches neither victory nor defeat, but rather how to nurture others and pull them to a higher level. That is budo.

I earnestly hope that everyone, particularly those who practice jojutsu, remember this axiom: "Do not be jubilant in victory; do not become servile in defeat. Lose with dignity." This is the spirit we must emulate.

Last edited by Jim Sorrentino : 05-17-2007 at 12:22 PM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-17-2007, 12:52 PM   #38
Jim Sorrentino
  AikiWeb Forums Contributing Member
 
Jim Sorrentino's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido of Northern Virginia, Aikido Shobukan Dojo
Location: Washington, DC
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 221
Offline
Re: Secret Of Aikido?

Greetings All,

Just to clarify, I did not include the first six paragraphs of Nishioka-sensei's article, nor the first sentence of the seventh paragraph.

Jim
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-17-2007, 01:05 PM   #39
Paul Sanderson-Cimino
Dojo: Yoshokai; looking into judo
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 424
United_States
Offline
Re: Secret Of Aikido?

Quote:
Jim Sorrentino wrote: View Post
Please define "equal".
Well, if you've both trained regularly for a few years, and they can throw you around/pin you easily while you can't do anything like that to them...that might be a sign that you're on the wrong track.
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-17-2007, 01:11 PM   #40
George S. Ledyard
 
George S. Ledyard's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido Eastside
Location: Bellevue, WA
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 2,641
Offline
Re: Secret Of Aikido?

Hi Jimmy,

That is one of my favorite passages... Nishioka Sensei embodies what our Aikido training should develop. He is an absolute gentleman, truly an elegant person. One of the more impressive people I have trained with.

I remember when he was at our school teaching a jo workshop along with Relnick Sensei... He asked me to hold my bokken while he demonstrated the proper way to do a particular deflection. I did my usual strong extension, trying to give him good energy. He did this movement that was absolutely effortless, fifty years of practice had made it perfect. Anyway, he hit my bokken so hard it made my hands feel numb... with not an ounce of effort or tension. He smiled and said, "You need to let it go..."

I think that this is a point that continues to be misunderstood in our training. If you train with a fighting mind, you will become a fighter. Aikido training is about something different than that. I think that there is a range of opinion about what that might be, but I think it is abundantly clear that O-Sensei never intended to create "fighters".

That doesn't mean that the things that Dan says about how we might better understand the training we need to do to perfect our art aren't true. Training the internal structure is important for developing really high level technique. But as Aikido people we need to understand this in the proper context of our overall training. We don't want to misunderstand the lesson here. Dan and others have done a good job pointing out an area in which modern Aikido has perhaps lost something when compared to what was there in the earliest days. It is our job to find how we can incorporate the training needed to correct this fact into our art without losing what is at its heart. Nishioka Sensei, even though he is not an Aikido practitioner, does a beautiful job expressing what the training is all about. I don't think we want to lose sight of that or we throw the baby out with the bath water.

George S. Ledyard
Aikido Eastside
Bellevue, WA
Aikido Eastside
AikidoDvds.Com
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-17-2007, 02:21 PM   #41
Nafis Zahir
 
Nafis Zahir's Avatar
Dojo: Bucks County Aikido
Location: Pennsylvania
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 425
United_States
Offline
Re: Secret Of Aikido?

Quote:
George S. Ledyard wrote: View Post
Hi Jimmy,

That is one of my favorite passages... Nishioka Sensei embodies what our Aikido training should develop. He is an absolute gentleman, truly an elegant person. One of the more impressive people I have trained with.

I remember when he was at our school teaching a jo workshop along with Relnick Sensei... He asked me to hold my bokken while he demonstrated the proper way to do a particular deflection. I did my usual strong extension, trying to give him good energy. He did this movement that was absolutely effortless, fifty years of practice had made it perfect. Anyway, he hit my bokken so hard it made my hands feel numb... with not an ounce of effort or tension. He smiled and said, "You need to let it go..."

I think that this is a point that continues to be misunderstood in our training. If you train with a fighting mind, you will become a fighter. Aikido training is about something different than that. I think that there is a range of opinion about what that might be, but I think it is abundantly clear that O-Sensei never intended to create "fighters".

That doesn't mean that the things that Dan says about how we might better understand the training we need to do to perfect our art aren't true. Training the internal structure is important for developing really high level technique. But as Aikido people we need to understand this in the proper context of our overall training. We don't want to misunderstand the lesson here. Dan and others have done a good job pointing out an area in which modern Aikido has perhaps lost something when compared to what was there in the earliest days. It is our job to find how we can incorporate the training needed to correct this fact into our art without losing what is at its heart. Nishioka Sensei, even though he is not an Aikido practitioner, does a beautiful job expressing what the training is all about. I don't think we want to lose sight of that or we throw the baby out with the bath water.
But how can we translate that into our training today? How can we understand this theory and still figure out the difference between muscle and power (through relaxation)? Can this be a part of the secret and do we need 50 years to figure it out?

  Reply With Quote
Old 05-17-2007, 02:43 PM   #42
Chuck Clark
 
Chuck Clark's Avatar
Dojo: Jiyushinkan
Location: Monroe, Washington
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 1,134
United_States
Offline
Re: Secret Of Aikido?

Quote:
Nafis Zahir wrote: View Post
But how can we translate that into our training today? How can we understand this theory and still figure out the difference between muscle and power (through relaxation)? Can this be a part of the secret and do we need 50 years to figure it out?
Find a teacher that teaches that way, pay attention, work hard, don't quit and receive the transmission. You will begin to show reasonable ability in eight to ten years or so and will continue to polish your skill and understanding as you continue to train.

Good joss...

Chuck Clark
Jiyushinkai Aikibudo
www.jiyushinkai.org
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-17-2007, 02:55 PM   #43
Chuck Clark
 
Chuck Clark's Avatar
Dojo: Jiyushinkan
Location: Monroe, Washington
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 1,134
United_States
Offline
Re: Secret Of Aikido?

Comparing Nishoka Tsuneo Sensei's comments about the role of uke and tori is useful up to a point in judo or aikido but the ukemi in koryu weapons work is different that the ukemi in arts where your body lands on the tatami a substantial number of times each practice. I've been doing it for 54 years and still fall really well but I don't/can't do it as often as I used to (l love doing it, by the way) due to arthritis, etc. If you don't have arthritis to deal with then the falling isn't so bad, it's the getting up numerous times that wears you out and exacerbates any old injuries, etc.

I have experience over the past twelve years of receiving for Nishioka Sensei and then feeling him receive whatever I'm giving him and the lessons are huge. My "body memory" is filled with sensations that I continue to learn from. People like this are becoming more scarce and every day I long for those lessons. Funny thing is, I know he still feels the same way about Shimizu Sensei, his teacher.... funny how that works.

Chuck Clark
Jiyushinkai Aikibudo
www.jiyushinkai.org
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-17-2007, 08:39 PM   #44
George S. Ledyard
 
George S. Ledyard's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido Eastside
Location: Bellevue, WA
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 2,641
Offline
Re: Secret Of Aikido?

Quote:
Chuck Clark wrote: View Post
Comparing Nishoka Tsuneo Sensei's comments about the role of uke and tori is useful up to a point in judo or aikido but the ukemi in koryu weapons work is different that the ukemi in arts where your body lands on the tatami a substantial number of times each practice. I've been doing it for 54 years and still fall really well but I don't/can't do it as often as I used to (l love doing it, by the way) due to arthritis, etc. If you don't have arthritis to deal with then the falling isn't so bad, it's the getting up numerous times that wears you out and exacerbates any old injuries, etc.
Hi Chuck,
Of course you are right that it's different in the koryu. We don't have a set role as uke or nage, we alternate roles. However, as a model for what I would call "right intention" I think it is applicable to what we want to see from both practitioners. Our training is alway about trying to find mutual benefit. I can help you be better by being better in my role but it should never be about my seeking to make you less by me being more nor is it about my seeking after my own ends at the expense of my partner. I think that is the core of the attitude expressed by Nishioka Sensei and it is what I think we should be striving for in our training.
- George

George S. Ledyard
Aikido Eastside
Bellevue, WA
Aikido Eastside
AikidoDvds.Com
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-17-2007, 11:48 PM   #45
Chuck Clark
 
Chuck Clark's Avatar
Dojo: Jiyushinkan
Location: Monroe, Washington
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 1,134
United_States
Offline
Re: Secret Of Aikido?

I agree with you a hundred percent George. That is the major part of the yakusoku that we have when train. I think it is an ongoing thing that many of us have with each other all the time...no matter how far apart we are, etc. We recognize it in each other and it is one of the great treasures that can never be taken away. Several of us were discussing this very thing tonight at dinner.

Chuck Clark
Jiyushinkai Aikibudo
www.jiyushinkai.org
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-21-2007, 03:41 PM   #46
Luc X Saroufim
 
Luc X Saroufim's Avatar
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 135
Offline
Re: Secret Of Aikido?

if there's a secret, i don't know it. guess i'll have to keep showing up to class.
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-21-2007, 10:22 PM   #47
Albert Oktovianus
 
Albert Oktovianus's Avatar
Dojo: Dojo Vila Melati Mas
Location: Jakarta
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 11
Indonesia
Offline
Lightbulb Re: Secret Of Aikido?

Secret of Aikido? In my opinion, Three is The Magic Number...
The secret(s) of Aikido for me is always there in the words of Ai Ki Do.
Maybe that's why O'Sensei say something about the THREE days, or some sage say it's THREE years....

A coincidence? Maybe....

Well, just a thought.....

Peace & Respect,

Albert O
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-21-2007, 11:45 PM   #48
donplummer
 
donplummer's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido School of Self Defense/Monticello NY
Location: Lower New York State
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 18
United_States
Offline
Re: Secret Of Aikido?

the secret sounds alot like a joke I once heard..."how do you keep an idiot in suspense?...tell you tomorrow." in the mean time TRAIN!
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-22-2007, 06:53 AM   #49
DH
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,394
United_States
Offline
Re: Secret Of Aikido?

Quote:
George S. Ledyard wrote: View Post
Hi Chuck,
Of course you are right that it's different in the koryu. We don't have a set role as uke or nage, we alternate roles. However, as a model for what I would call "right intention" I think it is applicable to what we want to see from both practitioners.
1. Our training is alway about trying to find mutual benefit.
2. I can help you be better by being better in my role
3. but it should never be about my seeking to make you less by me being more
4. nor is it about my seeking after my own ends at the expense of my partner.
I think that is the core of the attitude expressed by Nishioka Sensei and it is what I think we should be striving for in our training.
- George
George
I numbered your comments for clarity in discussion

1. Isn't MMA training or even boxing also about mutual benefit. To that end they resist and offer uncooperative actions with quick change ups in order to...
2. Help you better by the other guy being better in his role- as resister. Thus it is about....
3. Them seeking to help make you more, by offering more reistence. Which is not done at the others expense, but rather both parties....
4. Seek out their own ends, which are to win, and in doing so they mutually assist and help each other find and build the best in each other.

So where does MMA training diverge and become less then aikido training? or even different in it goals?
The physical aspects of resistance I think are in fact MORE life affirming and character building. I've had full grown men tear-up in frustration at continually being hit or stymied on the ground in my classes but each one will tell you it helped build them and move them forward. I guess at a certain point we have to question just what is truly being accomplished when the challenges are increasingly .........less.
When does the cooperation meant to build in fact becomes self defeating. At what point are we just the 21-century parents patting little Johnnie on the head and telling him what a great job .......14th place is. The martial arts are more and more playing to the lowest common denominator as everyone hugs everybody, and assures they feel "empowered." They really aren't "empowered" and never will be that way. But these days as long as little Mary "feels" empowered we all count it a success.
Perhaps this is the reason so many hippies with communal notions, empowerment, and tribal animist quasi-religious mumbo jumbo have successfully infiltrated and ruined Aikido as a true Budo. Making it a mockery in the martial arts.

Secret of Aikido as spiritual
Most of the talk of the superiority of "aikido in daily life" as a martial pursuit married to interpersonal relationships is without merit. I think someones aikido has little to do with how they express themselves in the world. Sure folks may have been made aware of better ways to communicate and function from martial arts. But in what proportion to other martial arts? As compared to what other activities? I have heard just as many testimonials from people who have learned to communicate and function better through coordinating boy scouts and community events. I have to organize and team-lead entire groups of committees and move their efforts forward in an often challenging community setting. But clearly the best way to learn to do that, is in doing that- not in a dojo.
In the end, the real world and human skills really have little to do with martial arts. One should consider how you would equate UFC chaps who are schoolteachers and volunteers, with AIkido?
MMA amateurs who are volunteers with DR men who were pillars of their communities with Aikido shihan who were drunks and notorious lechers with female students?
Where would the excellent men and women in Aikido stack up with the excellent men and women in any other pursuit? Probably about the same I'd bet. The real majority of the masses of MA ers are all nobody special. They are working stiffs just trying to make ends meet.
You can't make sense out of Aikido being a superior model in character building- because it makes no sense to begin with. People are people and you find all manner of men and women in all walks of life.

Secret of Aikido as budo
I guess for me the real issue is to to embrace the practical realities of replicable and demonstrable power, that one then chooses to use peacefully. That is the -real- mental and character building challenge. For openers attaining that kind of power takes serious long term solo commitment. Which knocks out most people before they even start..
The real secret to making Aikido work is in solo training. To build power in yourself. When you can capture and manipulate in-yo in yourself you are better able to make aiki happen. Trying to find it through waza is a slow boat to china. The single most inefficient manner to develop aiki in the world is through technique. When compared to solo training it is just plain dumb. It is expressed and trained in solo waza and then fully expressed in technique. The idea of developing Aiki in your self is anathema to most in Aikido. The framework of what aiki is to them is joined energy of two parties in motion. They cannot see it and it is the source of the continual frustrations in trying to understand where the founder was coming from with his “power.” In their view “power” and the use of it is antithetical to all that is aiki because they relate it to muscle. In fact in-yo ho is made in oneself and in this perfect state one moves. Moving with a developed body and mind makes aiki happen in all those who contact you, creating many openings and weaknesses in them. But at its core- it is about power.
It was never and will never be in helping someone help you in helping them in an energy exchange. Choosing the self-deluding cooperative energy exchange, will, in the end actually weaken both participants; physically and spiritually.

Perhaps today the real secret of Aikido- is that most everyone in it is not doing Aikido. Instead they are involved in a newly minted concoction of cooperative play that was at it's inception, a caricature. In true definition: an imitation or copy so distorted or inferior as to be ludicrous.. Players mimicing and playing out “roles” to actuate an empty copy of what the founder looked like. It will never get them to the state of power Ueshiba had.
Were Ueshiba’s skills the true goal-modern aikido is ill-equipped to get anyone there. And may in fact be the worst thing one could do were they trying to get to the founders skills. But many will feel warm and fuzzy and make allot of friends doing it.

Last edited by DH : 05-22-2007 at 07:08 AM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-22-2007, 07:51 AM   #50
Fred Little
Dojo: NJIT Budokai
Location: State Line NJ/NY
Join Date: Apr 2001
Posts: 613
United_States
Offline
Re: Secret Of Aikido?

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Perhaps this is the reason so many hippies with communal notions, empowerment, and tribal animist quasi-religious mumbo jumbo have successfully infiltrated and ruined Aikido as a true Budo. Making it a mockery in the martial arts.
Dear Dan,

Hippie was buried in San Francisco on October 7, 1967. It was said at the time that the cause of death was "overexposure and rampant commercialism."

What you are talking about it the kind of self-serving individualism, cowboy dressup posing, and feel-good gospel of wealth sociopathy that has been worshipped by the American Right since Ronald Reagan was President. Or maybe since he was the host of Death Valley Days.

Not that I disagree with the most of the rest of your screed.

Best,

FL

Last edited by Fred Little : 05-22-2007 at 07:52 AM. Reason: forgot to sign post
  Reply With Quote

Please visit our sponsor:

Aikido of Northern VA Seminars - Doran-sensei in Northern Virginia, March 2015



Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Watch Out for Aikido 'Shihans'.......... Man of Aiki General 74 02-24-2009 09:37 AM
Women and Everybody Else in Aikido George S. Ledyard Teaching 113 03-16-2008 08:27 PM
For Ted Ehara - Boundary of your aikido? billybob General 123 12-18-2006 05:52 AM
Omoto-kyo Theology senshincenter Spiritual 77 12-04-2005 10:50 PM
Proposta organização do Aikido Portugal kimusubi0 Portuguese 0 05-03-2004 04:26 AM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 03:40 AM.



vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2014 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
----------
Copyright 1997-2014 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
----------
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
plainlaid-picaresque outchasing-protistan explicantia-altarage seaford-stellionate