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Old 05-10-2007, 10:43 AM   #26
John Matsushima
 
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Re: Finish him! ... !?

Well, this seems to be leading to the never-ending question of violence in Aikido. What you or anyone else would do in an actual confrontation is of course, up to you. Yes, it is a fact of life that people kill in self-defense. I am well aware of the violence in this world.

But is it that what Aikido teaches? Didn't Ueshiba himself say time and time again that we shouldn't injure our attacker? Isn't non-violence the philosophy of Aikido? I'm not asking what you or anyone would do it a certain situation, but is injuring an attacker, especially one whom you have just disarmed and is laying face down on the ground, is that the way of Aikido?

Many people base the argument for violence as stemming from Budo. True, in the old days (not too long ago) there was the saying "all is fair in love and war". Then it became an issue of "killing in self defense" By the way, in Budo, self-defense is not a number one priority for a warrior. If stopping the enemy is necessary for victory, then he would sacrifice his own life to do so.

Aikido is not a budo of old, but a very modern martial art. Ueshiba redefined Budo by making the point that if we train hard enough we can achieve the ability, the means to protect ourselves, our loved ones and our enemy from injury. If you can, then why not?

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Old 05-10-2007, 10:48 AM   #27
Mike Haftel
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Re: Finish him! ... !?

Regardless of all this philosphical talk and "what is in accordance with the nature of Aikido" stuff, if you have disarmed and an attacker and then use that weapon against the attacker...even if he is still a threat to you, you have just broken the law and you DO face criminal charges.

If someone attacks me with a knife and I manage to get hold of said knife and go ahead and cut the attacker in any way...that is a crime. It sucks, I know, but that's the law.

Unless the attacker still poses a life-or-death threat to you, you are out of luck.

The same could be said of a gun. If you wrestle a gun away from somebody and then shoot them, you are going to jail.
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Old 05-10-2007, 11:04 AM   #28
tarik
 
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Re: Finish him! ... !?

Quote:
John Matsushima wrote: View Post
But is it that what Aikido teaches? Didn't Ueshiba himself say time and time again that we shouldn't injure our attacker?
Even if it was his goal (which I question if you study his writings), that was not his example. It is certainly an admirable goal, but reality will give you a solid kick in the ass if you sincerely believe this is always possible and attempt it at all times. Train and this will take care of itself.

Quote:
Isn't non-violence the philosophy of Aikido?
No, it's the philosophy of many who practice Aikido. But the Nidai Doshu denied this was his father's teaching when asked directly.

Quote:
I'm not asking what you or anyone would do it a certain situation, but is injuring an attacker, especially one whom you have just disarmed and is laying face down on the ground, is that the way of Aikido?
You just changed your example and are getting mired in specific scenarios. Don't get lost in what-if's and specific scenarios, examine what I already wrote about choices. This will answer that question easily.

Quote:
By the way, in Budo, self-defense is not a number one priority for a warrior. If stopping the enemy is necessary for victory, then he would sacrifice his own life to do so.
You are just beginning to explore the consequences I already talked about.

Quote:
Aikido is not a budo of old, but a very modern martial art. Ueshiba redefined Budo by making the point that if we train hard enough we can achieve the ability, the means to protect ourselves, our loved ones and our enemy from injury. If you can, then why not?
If you really study budo enough to be familiar with other forms, there isn't anything new in what you just said, no matter what Ueshiba Sensei claimed. Perhaps he offered something different in the details of his philosophy, but in any case, where in anything I wrote, did I say that isn't what is being attempted?

Regards,

Tarik Ghbeish
Jiyūshin-ryū AikiBudō - Iwae Dojo

MASAKATSU AGATSU -- "The true victory of self-mastery."
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Old 05-10-2007, 11:38 AM   #29
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Re: Finish him! ... !?

Quote:
John Matsushima wrote: View Post
But is it that what Aikido teaches? Didn't Ueshiba himself say time and time again that we shouldn't injure our attacker? Isn't non-violence the philosophy of Aikido?
I might have misunderstood it all, but as far as I know, Osensei was talking about Uke not the attacker in real life. He says that we should take care of our Uke and make sure not to injure them specifically. This is at least how I understand it. This of course didn't stop him from breaking his Uke's arm at one demonstration (before the emperor).

I also fail to see how can one manage not to injure the attacker if for instance you throw him on concrete and he breaks his neck, unless you consider the floor the real culprit here.
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Old 05-10-2007, 01:48 PM   #30
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Finish him! ... !?

I really like both Tarik's and Gernot's posts in response to the original question. I have felt waza from instructors where the only correct (read non-painfull) way to move was to take correct ukemi. As long as I moved correctly, no pain! That is in some ways perhaps not as high a level of technique as they can perform...but it does teach an interesting lesson. They allow you to freely choose how you will move...but there are consequences to making a bad choice. Thankfully painfull ones as opposed to dismemberment or death.

Best,
Ron

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Old 05-10-2007, 01:54 PM   #31
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Re: Finish him! ... !?

Quote:
Roman Kremianski wrote: View Post
Sorry to seem like the anal unaiki-like guy here, but get me a 150lb guy pinning a struggling 150lb guy. I can almost guarantee you a grappling situation will arise.

And bear in mind that by pin, I meant standard Aikido pin (ikkyo/nikyo etc), not some knee-on-head or full armbar type pin that already places uke in an obvious disadvantage because he cooperated up to that point. If you can get uke there though, great.

Just falling back on what I was taught. Get uke to the ground > Pin > Stretch > Get up and repeat technique. Not an MMA submission.
No Worries Roman. I understand where you're coming from. Just know that when a pin is properly executed it can "submit" uke otherwise what would be the point? I have had a few dozen students over the years ask me about it, and it's good to see that pins actually do work. Since you hinted at it.. a good place to see if they do work is with Judoka/BJJ/Submission Wrestlers and other non-cooperative Uke's. You're right that a tiny 110 pound woman might have tremendous difficulty pinning a guy like me 6'2' 250 but a slight modification of the pin ( hint: fingers and/or body postion) can be effective when accompanied with serious intent.

As for the hardcore pin with a cooperative Uke. Thats just plain rude. LOL

William Hazen
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Old 05-10-2007, 04:23 PM   #32
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Re: Finish him! ... !?

Umm, I think more relevant, besides the issue of whether it's violent or not etc etc I think the OP's question was, "are we trained in tanto-jutsu?" It's like, if uke was wielding nunchuks, and you got the nunchucks off him, would you be confident using them effectively against the pinned uke?

I don't think "cutting the spine" is really going to be that easy? Bones, ribs... with a weapon that's probably unfamiliar since it belonged to uke... not an easy proposition to swallow.

Last edited by Haowen Chan : 05-10-2007 at 04:26 PM.
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Old 05-10-2007, 04:39 PM   #33
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Finish him! ... !?

It's not brain surgery...pointy end goes in uke...sharp side must touch flesh. Uh...HIS flesh, that is...

B,
R

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Old 05-10-2007, 06:34 PM   #34
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Re: Finish him! ... !?

Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote: View Post
I have felt waza from instructors where the only correct (read non-painfull) way to move was to take correct ukemi.
The best Aiki (and Judo) I've ever felt didn't involve me making a conscious choice to move on any level (that I'm currently aware of). Never did I have to choose to move in order to avoid pain or injury.

The stuff I'm chasing after leaves uke with no mental or physical recollection of what happened. Anything else just isn't worth my time anymore.

Michael Hacker
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Old 05-11-2007, 08:04 AM   #35
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Re: Finish him! ... !?

Quote:
Michael Hacker wrote: View Post
The best Aiki (and Judo) I've ever felt didn't involve me making a conscious choice to move on any level (that I'm currently aware of). Never did I have to choose to move in order to avoid pain or injury.

The stuff I'm chasing after leaves uke with no mental or physical recollection of what happened. Anything else just isn't worth my time anymore.
I was just discussing this exact feeling (that I got from Clark Sensei last October) with a student at my dojo yesterday. I'm still not quite sure how I ended up on the mat. I just know he told me to hit him and about a half second later, I was on the mat looking up at him thinking "What just happened?" Fun Stuff!
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Old 05-11-2007, 08:21 AM   #36
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Finish him! ... !?

Quote:
Michael Hacker wrote: View Post
The best Aiki (and Judo) I've ever felt didn't involve me making a conscious choice to move on any level (that I'm currently aware of). Never did I have to choose to move in order to avoid pain or injury.

The stuff I'm chasing after leaves uke with no mental or physical recollection of what happened. Anything else just isn't worth my time anymore.
Sure, I agree that what I described is just one level, that is sometimes shown. And I am often left without a clue as to what just happened. But I do see a place for what I described...even now. In a physical confrontation with someone who is really trying to hurt me, I want complete and full control to whatever extent it is possible. And I don't want to rely on pain compliance.

But when that level is not needed, I like to be in a position where I can take it there...but have the choice to be kinder. But hey, that's just me. There are partners I train with that if I throw them at my top level, they are going to be hurt. They don't know enough yet to fully protect themselves. But I can learn a lot about myself and them if I can guide them through the waza...and the method I described is just one way to do that. And since I like working with beginners and juniors...

Best,
Ron

Last edited by Ron Tisdale : 05-11-2007 at 08:26 AM.

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Old 05-11-2007, 09:43 AM   #37
tarik
 
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Re: Finish him! ... !?

Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote: View Post
Sure, I agree that what I described is just one level, that is sometimes shown. And I am often left without a clue as to what just happened. But I do see a place for what I described...even now. In a physical confrontation with someone who is really trying to hurt me, I want complete and full control to whatever extent it is possible. And I don't want to rely on pain compliance.
Ron, as another person chasing the same experience that Mike Hacker describes, I would say that what I/you described is a stage of beginning to recognize how to accomplish that.

I believe that the fact that uke has choices is an indicator that I as tori am offering those choices, perhaps by going slowly enough or even pausing; something I eventually want to be able to eliminate as well from my technique. By going slowly enough to allow uke those choices, I am also educating myself as to the correct paths that will grant that level of practice. It's not that uke's choices will go away if I improve, it's that they will become choices made at the subconcious or neurological level and I will be more aware of the options than they.

I'm only speculating right now, but it's informed speculation.

Tarik Ghbeish
Jiyūshin-ryū AikiBudō - Iwae Dojo

MASAKATSU AGATSU -- "The true victory of self-mastery."
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Old 05-11-2007, 10:02 AM   #38
Mike Haftel
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Re: Finish him! ... !?

Quote:
Tarik Ghbeish wrote: View Post
Ron, as another person chasing the same experience that Mike Hacker describes, I would say that what I/you described is a stage of beginning to recognize how to accomplish that.

I believe that the fact that uke has choices is an indicator that I as tori am offering those choices, perhaps by going slowly enough or even pausing; something I eventually want to be able to eliminate as well from my technique. By going slowly enough to allow uke those choices, I am also educating myself as to the correct paths that will grant that level of practice. It's not that uke's choices will go away if I improve, it's that they will become choices made at the subconcious or neurological level and I will be more aware of the options than they.

I'm only speculating right now, but it's informed speculation.
Speed is not, or should not be, a determinant for the level of Technique you are talking about. I've had highly compentent people throw me very softly and comparably slower than the average Aikidoka and I still had no choice in the matter and made no conscious decision to "take a fall" or "protect myself" by falling. And, going further, I wasn't being a compliant uke.

But, this skill is few and far between in the martial arts world.
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Old 05-11-2007, 10:12 AM   #39
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Finish him! ... !?

Quote:
Mike Haftel wrote: View Post
Speed is not, or should not be, a determinant for the level of Technique you are talking about. I've had highly compentent people throw me very softly and comparably slower than the average Aikidoka and I still had no choice in the matter and made no conscious decision to "take a fall" or "protect myself" by falling. And, going further, I wasn't being a compliant uke.

But, this skill is few and far between in the martial arts world.
Absolutely! My refrain is, if you can't do it slow, you can't really do it fast. In judo, the waza work well with added muscle I think, because you are close in. If you missed some portion of the kuzushi, but you fit in well, and are strong, you can cover well. I think because of the way aikido waza are structured, it's harder (and more obvious) when strength and speed are used to cover up a lack of kuzushi, proper positioning, or kokyu. Or all of the above. And unlike judo, it is much less likely to work on someone larger.

I think Tarik would say the same thing from what I've read of his posts. Even in more or less free practice, about half the time I'm trying to slow down, move more correctly, feel more of what I'm beginning to see as "kokyu posture",,,etc. It's a long road. Just because I'm at one spot on the road, doesn't mean my interest in other spots is gone. Unifying my body mind spirit includes unifying all the spots along the road, in my mind.

Best,
Ron

Last edited by Ron Tisdale : 05-11-2007 at 10:16 AM.

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Old 05-11-2007, 10:13 AM   #40
tarik
 
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Re: Finish him! ... !?

Quote:
Mike Haftel wrote: View Post
Speed is not, or should not be, a determinant for the level of Technique you are talking about. I've had highly compentent people throw me very softly and comparably slower than the average Aikidoka and I still had no choice in the matter and made no conscious decision to "take a fall" or "protect myself" by falling. And, going further, I wasn't being a compliant uke.
Oh, I agree that speed is not a factor. I found that just as I really need to SLOW down and pay more attention, one set of teachers wanted me to speed up to solve my problems, instead.

In fact, this study is more able to be accomplished at extremely slow speeds and the benefit is that uke and tori can both discover together how and why it works. Compliance is not required, but cooperation is, in the sense that both partners have to treat that slow speed as the same as higher speeds. That is just a difficult and challenging (and extremely rewarding and fruitful) practice, particularly for an uke who perceives non-compliance as being able to do anything, even if it would violate the laws of physics if the speed were actually full blown. I think I finally am beginning to get that inside, but it is a HARD practice to be non-compliant, yet cooperative in this mode.

IAC, I was talking about a stage I've been passing through that is hopefully on the right path. Regardless of correct path, it was certainly on my path.

Quote:
Mike Haftel wrote: View Post
But, this skill is few and far between in the martial arts world.
Sometimes when you look, and find good teachers, you find it in clumps.

Regards,

Tarik Ghbeish
Jiyūshin-ryū AikiBudō - Iwae Dojo

MASAKATSU AGATSU -- "The true victory of self-mastery."
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Old 05-11-2007, 12:41 PM   #41
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Re: Finish him! ... !?

Harmony is balance. Your uke has elevated the intensity of a conflict through the use of a weapon. Your reaction must balance his action. If his tries to cut you, you demonstrate you are capable of reciprocating that action. In aikido, we choose not to cut our opponents, but that does not mean that we lack the knowledge or skill to do so.
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Old 05-11-2007, 03:14 PM   #42
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Re: Finish him! ... !?

Quote:
Tarik Ghbeish wrote: View Post
I believe that the fact that uke has choices is an indicator that I as tori am offering those choices, perhaps by going slowly enough or even pausing; something I eventually want to be able to eliminate as well from my technique. By going slowly enough to allow uke those choices, I am also educating myself as to the correct paths that will grant that level of practice. It's not that uke's choices will go away if I improve, it's that they will become choices made at the subconcious or neurological level and I will be more aware of the options than they.
Agreed. At every step information is offered and choices are made by both uke and tori. Its learning to slow down, relax, pay attention, stay aware, and choose wisely that is an education, an art.

Lynn Seiser PhD
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Old 05-11-2007, 09:50 PM   #43
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Re: Finish him! ... !?

You don't cut the man. You cut the devil out of is kharma.
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Old 05-12-2007, 01:07 AM   #44
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Re: Finish him! ... !?

Quote:
Paul Sanderson-Cimino wrote: View Post
It does kind of bug me to see people casually pantomime slitting uke's throat or something. If they think that's part of the kata, they should do it with approriate seriousness and focus. Half-heartedly gesturing it is wrong from any angle.
Completely agree. Although we are not harming the uke per se, but we should be in the mindset and intention of harming the uke at split second should the need arises.

Quote:
GeorgeLedyard wrote:
These pins or "immobilizations" were originally designed simply to place a person at disadvantage only long enough for you to access your backup weapon and finish him.
Happy belated b/day George. Since we are practicing AiKiDo and not AikiJutsu: Kamae as the beginning of the waza and Osae as the end of the waza is appropriate. Just like a good music score, there is the intro and the ending. It is designed to look nice and complete.

Like George said, to be street effective, carry a wakizashi (just kidding).

Do not confuse Aikido immobilization (osae-waza) with submission grappling (osae-komi) moves. There were created for different purpose and intention.

Boon.

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Old 05-12-2007, 09:20 AM   #45
John Matsushima
 
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Re: Finish him! ... !?

Quote:
Xu Wenfung wrote: View Post
Completely agree. Although we are not harming the uke per se, but we should be in the mindset and intention of harming the uke at split second should the need arises.
When do we ever need to harm someone?
I still don't get it, WHY is it EVER necessary to harm an unarmed person with a weapon? If you are good enough to take away a weapon from someone trying to kill you and put him down on the ground, how is that person any kind of a threat that warrants you harming him?

Many people say, "Well, if you live in the real world, when people really try to hurt you and kill you, then you'll have to BLAH BLAH BLAH." Well, you're right. We live in a world of suicide bombers, nuclear weapons and ak-47s. The reason we can't stop such violence is because we're not good enough. Saying things like "I was forced to harm him; he asked for it; he didn't give me any choice" shows ignorance, a lack of ability, a lack of power, a lack of freedom. Hey, I am not claiming to be a superaikiman; to be honest, I think If I am in such situation, and I realize that I can't and don't know how to take away his weapon without harming him, then I will probably use any method I can to tear his head off. And if I can't then I will die. But that's why I train in Aikido.

Isn't that why we all train in Aikido? Aikido gives us the power to save ourselves and the attacker; it gives us the power of choice, the power to be free from having to kill. Isn't that everyone's excuse for killing? "We have to kill the infidels; we have to kill the bad guys; we have to kill them because we have no choice" Or do we just train to get better at taking people's heads off? Or, do you just train how to harm uke because you expect that you will never be good enough? Are the techniques not good enough? Is Aikido not good enough to deal with "real world" attackers? Then why the hell do you practice Aikido?

-John Matsushima

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Old 05-12-2007, 10:43 PM   #46
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Re: Finish him! ... !?

I tend to think that with correct zanshin and proper application of Aikido techniques, a true Aikidoka would never see the need to wield a weapon against an unarmed opponent under the control of a pin. I am certainly not the authority on Aikido, but this is the spirit in which I practice the art. Where, may I ask, is the harmony in slitting a downed person's throat?
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Old 05-12-2007, 11:28 PM   #47
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Re: Finish him! ... !?

Uplift all beings and do as little harm as possible... I can live with this. However, what happens if someone comes out of the dark with a knife and you luckily, successfully take it away and then, in your benevolence or ineptitude or just chance, the assailant gets away, takes the knife back from you and kills you... or the person has friends that are coming out of the dark at you while you are taking control of their buddy and you see at least one weapon amongst them? Do you let the person up in order to defend against the others while the one you had under control joins in again... Lots of similar scenarios that happen frequently in the world every day ...

One of the things I really like about aiki budo is the ability to have choice about doing as little harm as possible. We then have to be responsible for that choice/action. It's not simple and clean cut as most people would like it. It's something to think about and, in reality, we act under threat the way we train ...

Last edited by Chuck Clark : 05-12-2007 at 11:30 PM.

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Old 05-13-2007, 03:45 AM   #48
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Re: Finish him! ... !?

An individual attacks me and mine with a knife...I will be able to direct EMS or the Coroner right to them.

For those of you that train earnestly and as directed by your mentors, ask them if they have ever really been attacked in the real world by an individual with a live blade that was going to use it on them. What was their response?

From multiple personal experiences, and as I have said before...You need to work on breaks and chokes. If you really believe that the pins you use in the dojo are going to work in the real world, start stocking up on bandages and hospitalization insurance.

I do not condone the reversal of roles where the victim becomes the aggressor, but I do not have a problem of leaving the individual with a little something to remember me by. Whether it is a limp, scar or extremely limited range of motion appendage.

Train well, Train real !
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Old 05-13-2007, 12:03 PM   #49
divinecedar
 
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Re: Finish him! ... !?

The arguements as to whether or not it is "right" or not to use a knife captured from an attacker boil down to the practicioner's own moral code. I believe that it is rather futile to argue one way or another, because people will do as they believe. However, it is good to hear everyone else's opinion. If one asks, what if a down assailant reclaims the knife the responses are certain to vary from, "I'd pull my Glock 19 and empty a clip" to "The substance of Bushido is death: we mustn't look as living as a gain and death as a loss." Some chose to merit violence with a greater degree of violence. Others chose to utilize the pacifistic approach. The true spirit of Aikido, at least to me, seems to lean toward the latter.
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Old 05-13-2007, 02:50 PM   #50
SeiserL
 
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Re: Finish him! ... !?

Quote:
Chuck Clark wrote: View Post
One of the things I really like about aiki budo is the ability to have choice about doing as little harm as possible. We then have to be responsible for that choice/action.
Osu,
Yes, we are responsible and accountable for all of our choices. Plus, we have to live with them. That is why I like to take responsibility for the choice of how and if I choose to "finish him". (Of course I am assuming we are talking about training, sparring, or fighting and not combat. I sometime get lost in these content threads that mix context. Must be old or something.)

Lynn Seiser PhD
Yondan Aikido & FMA/JKD
We do not rise to the level of our expectations, but fall to the level of our training. Train well. KWATZ!
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