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Old 10-30-2001, 01:55 AM   #1
ivan
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is aikido really practical

I am a guy learning thai boxing but really have intrest in aikido , but the thought 'is aikido really practical in a real fight always come to mind' could u guys pls advise
i found out that aikido empahsis on counters graps and hold..rite?
But little is too done to punches and kicks.?
In a reaL fight who will hold ur arm rather than smashing ur nose in?
Further more in arts like karate, speed and power are trained to make students good , other than that they are made faster with experience from sparring.In this way they also get to learn various fighting tactics.Thus improving themselves.
Aikido is without all this, and even if they do have counters for punches and kicks, is it possible to catch a punches like a jab in short distances? it's hard to block even a karate punch , furthermore catch or side step?
especially in spars or fights with other martial artists, do u think think will come close to a aikido practictioner or hold his hand? i am sure they will keep distance and keep striking..is aikido then a sitting duck ?
I am sure aikido is very good for discipline and health , but isit good for self defence?
Are all their tactics for show onli?
Are their tactics nice to see but really not practical to perform?
As u seen all masters in demos thrown a person like a ragdoll ..but in this case do u see that it is always the person runnning from a distance or holding his hand?
This i must say is possible as the aikido practictioner has enough time to perform the moves, but what happans if it is a jab from close distance or a array of mutiple attacks?
I have asked a number of aikido guys who i knew from the net ..what they all gave mi is long talk abt the principlas of aikido , they juz turn mi down blankly without asking my question.I found all of them have something in common , even though verse in aikido , when ask a suitation in real life danger , they are unable to answer me .
I hope u guys out there could tell mi abt ur views and if it is a art worth learning for self defence.
ivan
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Old 10-30-2001, 02:45 AM   #2
Creature_of_the_id
 
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Hi Ivan,

I think the only real way to find an answer to this question is to give it a try (for quite a while) with an open mind.
no matter how many times I or other people tell someone that it is effective it means nothing. the only way to understand it is to experience it and descide if your aikido can be effective in the situations you describe.

the question isnt really, "is aikido effective?" it has been shown to be effective by many different people and groups on many different occasions and in all of the situations you describe. the question is... "can my aikido be effective in those situations?"
Train and find out

Love
Kev
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Old 10-30-2001, 02:51 AM   #3
Edward
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You're right about Aikido. Most of the practitioners are not there to learn self-defence but for other reasons which would require pages to explain, and as a recent Aikiweb poll shows, over 90% never had any fight of any kind in their whole life. Therefore, my advice, forget about Aikido. It's simply not for you.

Regards.
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Old 10-30-2001, 05:06 AM   #4
ian
 
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I didn't start aikido for self-defence reasons (I wanted to do weapon work). But I really got into the unarmed stuff. Its also come in handy many times as a practical self-defence. It is much more useful for stopping fights as often people will try to push/grab/hold you before working themselves up for a fight. It is not so good for the situation where you stand opposite each other in poses and are trying to damage the other person. It is much more about instinctive reaction to a swing or stab.

Techniques are often grabs etc from the start, but the idea is to 'blend' with the attack (our club actually start from overheard strikes as it emphasises this blending as more important than fixed 'technique'). Although there is some practical benefit early on, I think this is only the same benefit you would get from ju-jitsu. It takes a couple of years before you start to get beyond technique and are more able to blend effectively with an attack.

Like many martial arts the training obviously depends on your instructor. If your instructor is not teaching it as a martial art for self-defence (at least as a major aspect) I would recommend that you do not try and train there to improve it as a self-defence.

Also, don't consider kick-boxing as something seperate from aikido. Aikido is a set of 'principles' of body movement, rather than a set of techniques (the techniques you can get from ju-jitsu; probably a lot more in fact). These same principles of blending and ki can be applied to kick-boxing as well (and probably are to some extent).

Good luck!

Ian
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Old 10-30-2001, 05:12 AM   #5
ian
 
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P.S. aikido actually utlises distance and timing. You don't have to be 'up close'. Also, it ultises a lot more movement (forward, back and to the side) than most other martial arts - except perhaps fencing!

Every martial art is a 'simulation'. In most, protection is worn which results in people still being OK after really hard strikes to vital points, or in competitions the strength of the strike becomes less important.

In aikido it is different. We usually assume someone will strike with force (and this actually makes it easier), but we usually practise repetively from certain attack 'types.' This isn't just e.g. a punch but often more detailed e.g. a jab, or a lunge - the reason being is that the body movement of the attacker is more important than the strike type.

Hope this helps,

Ian
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Old 10-30-2001, 08:30 AM   #6
Greg Jennings
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Re: is aikido really practical

Quote:
Originally posted by ivan
i found out that aikido empahsis on counters graps and hold..rite?
But little is too done to punches and kicks.?
In a reaL fight who will hold ur arm rather than smashing ur nose in?
If you enjoy mauy thai and it works for you then you should by all means continue studying that art.

That said, a few comments:

o Someone's aikido out there might be passive, but the aikido I study certainly is not. Our philosophy is to always try to dictate. We do this by playing on whatever inclination it is that the other guy demonstrates.

o In mathematics, one studies elementary algebra before one studies the multivariate calculus. This is not arbitrary, there is a good reason for it. In aikido, many schools training method begins with grabs of various kinds. The teacher is generally someone with years of experience and well-developed ideas about how their system of aikido should be taught. Without an equivalent number of years of training in aikido or a related art, why do you automatically assume that they don't know what they're doing? Do you believe that there is a secret rite that aikido teachers go through that robs them of their ability to think?

o No art covers everything. You practice mauy thai, I take it. What does your art teach you to do when someone takes you to the ground and ties you up in cross-body ride? What does it teach you to do when they are attacking you with an oblique attack with a two-foot section of iron pipe? What about when they have a knife and are making repeated thrusts at your midsection?

No slams here. I just want to provoke some thought.

Best Regards,

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Old 10-30-2001, 07:34 PM   #7
Mares
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Re: Re: is aikido really practical

Quote:
Originally posted by Greg Jennings


If you enjoy mauy thai and it works for you then you should by all means continue studying that art.

That said, a few comments:

o Someone's aikido out there might be passive, but the aikido I study certainly is not. Our philosophy is to always try to dictate. We do this by playing on whatever inclination it is that the other guy demonstrates.

o In mathematics, one studies elementary algebra before one studies the multivariate calculus. This is not arbitrary, there is a good reason for it. In aikido, many schools training method begins with grabs of various kinds. The teacher is generally someone with years of experience and well-developed ideas about how their system of aikido should be taught. Without an equivalent number of years of training in aikido or a related art, why do you automatically assume that they don't know what they're doing? Do you believe that there is a secret rite that aikido teachers go through that robs them of their ability to think?

o No art covers everything. You practice mauy thai, I take it. What does your art teach you to do when someone takes you to the ground and ties you up in cross-body ride? What does it teach you to do when they are attacking you with an oblique attack with a two-foot section of iron pipe? What about when they have a knife and are making repeated thrusts at your midsection?

No slams here. I just want to provoke some thought.

Best Regards,
That was a bit harsh, but i do agree with what you said
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Old 10-30-2001, 08:56 PM   #8
Erik
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Re: is aikido really practical

Quote:
Originally posted by ivan
I have asked a number of aikido guys who i knew from the net ..what they all gave mi is long talk abt the principlas of aikido , they juz turn mi down blankly without asking my question.I found all of them have something in common , even though verse in aikido , when ask a suitation in real life danger , they are unable to answer me .
I hope u guys out there could tell mi abt ur views and if it is a art worth learning for self defence.
ivan
Laughing! Yep, we do that. Unless you go out and get in a few fights you'll never know for sure and most of us don't fight so around we go never sure enough to answer the question.

Just to be picky, I don't think you mean self-defense. I think you are asking if Aikido is an art worth learning for fighting. Self-defense has very little to do with how to handle a jab, for instance.

There are teachers out there who teach Aikido from a martial/combat perspective. If that is what you are after you should be able to find someone although it might take some work on your part.
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Old 10-30-2001, 10:05 PM   #9
ivan
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I cant believe it guuys, could u stop all this long talk and tell mi something i could use , like come to the point and tell mi what u think abt this art if it was practical ?

no hard feeelings ok..
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Old 10-30-2001, 11:41 PM   #10
colinlam
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umm .... please correct me if I'm wrong ... as far as I remember, Aikido is a compulsory course for Japanese riot police ... I think that's clear enough to say Aikido is good for self-defence or not ...

cheers,

Colin

p.s.

G'day Greg ! G'day Michael !
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Old 10-31-2001, 12:41 AM   #11
Jem8472
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Ki Symbol

Hello, just saw thsi post and had to say something before I go to work.

You say about the Aikido moves being from a distance comming in or wrist grabs. well that is part of it but there are lot and lots of other moves as well. We have a website for our Aikido club with loads of high quality vids on there.

If you want to see some good moves have a look at the site, the address is:

www.aikido-dynamic.co.uk

Jem
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Old 10-31-2001, 07:21 AM   #12
markronquillo
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Ivan,
No philosophy lesson here. As an aikido student who previously studied tae kwon do (2nd brown), I can understand the immediate questions of aikido's self-defense applications you might have.

In a "striking" art, such as Muay Thai or TKD, it doesn't take much to understand that punches and kicks and elbows are all effective manners of stopping or engaging an attacker.

But as you've noticed, we aikido folks aim to do things a bit differently. Instead of blocking a punch and counterpunching, many aikidokas would aim to block/intercept the punch and do one of many things with it. The ones that come to mind for me are mostly wrist or joint locks, and trust me, they're painful as hell and just as capable of changing an attacker's intent as a jab or kick to the ribs. (By the way, many aikidoka do in fact utilize punches or atemi, you just don't seem to hear about it as much.)

Additionally, there are many body throws, similar to judo in my opinion, that on the street would be quite effective.

If you're interested in it, find a good school and give it a shot. It's my belief that adding aikido to your muay thai skills can only make you a better martial artist.

Hope this helps,
Mark
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Old 10-31-2001, 07:44 AM   #13
arvin m.
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Hey ivan my fellow Singaporean!!!Man so few of us around here these days...
ok listen i aint really hi level just a blue-gold ok but this is just some perspective from a newbie with just about one and a half yrs experience...

K first of all u ask what if someone jabs real quick right? I've dealt with this question before and posted it on this very forum a coupla times...see i feel that if u allow your opponent to close in like that on u so he can COMFORTABLY throw a punch, thats bad juju bro...hence the concept of ma'ai or distance in aikido. By keeping our distance( it can be as simple as raising yer hands in stance) i feel we deny him the opportunity to COMFORTABLY throw a punch without us getting wind of it. Second, we are taught not to be drawn into him ie dont focus on his eyes but maintain a soft focus like in this triangle from his shoulder to forehead.. this allows us to perhaps sense his lower body movements better than if we got carried away and started staring...if he does throw the punch...that's where techniques equivalent loosely to sidestepping and some circular movements we term irimi and tenkan come into play, allowing us to avoid the strike and flow with this incoming energy. Of course, we can opt to duck under the punch and strike on our own...

the list goes on ivan... u really got to sign up and BE PATIENT!!! its an art that even karateka and taekwondo practioners admit to having a longer learning period and in that respect steeper learning curve.

As for practicality, the beauty with this art is that u can choose to escalate the amt of force u apply to the situation...u can if u wish defuse it with minimal damage to the aggressor or outright maim or even kill him..thats something we keep as an EXTREME last resort only if our lives are in danger lar...oh the thing abt the jap riot police is true...our local gurkha contingent trains in aikido and i heard from someone in the commandos that they incorporate aikido techniques into their CQB fighting...

Muay thai kicks ass brudder ive seen some guys working out when i jog in Bukit Gombak Nature reserve, and the pro thai fighters are tanks..hell they whipped the asses offa some hongkong team of kungfu fighters twice!!! Like Ian, a man who i learnt alot from in this forum( and from others as well), says, u can always take the principles of aikido and see how they complement yer muay thai, or if u do take up aikido, how u can use muay thai to complement the striking aspect of aikido...


Hope this helps i noe its very wordy...if ive said something dumb or wrong i hope the more senior members will correct me thanx guys u'all stay good!!!
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Old 10-31-2001, 08:16 AM   #14
ivan
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Thanks man , mark and arvin.. u guys are the best , u gave real good advse for me rather than some long talk ...
best man u guys !!!!!!!
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Old 10-31-2001, 09:03 AM   #15
Greg Jennings
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Re: Re: Re: is aikido really practical

Quote:
Originally posted by Mares


That was a bit harsh, but i do agree with what you said
I'm as nice a person as you would ever want to meet. But I am prone to attempting to make my point clearly and concisely.

Regards,

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Old 10-31-2001, 01:03 PM   #16
NYFE Man
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Quote:
Originally posted by ivan
I cant believe it guuys, could u stop all this long talk and tell mi something i could use , like come to the point and tell mi what u think abt this art if it was practical ?

no hard feeelings ok..
...and welcome to the Aikiweb Forums Long talk our specialty!

If you search around the threads at all, you will see that this question has been asked and answered several times -- including one that is running concurrent to yours.

My feeling is -- if Aikido were NOT effective for anyone, no-one would study it. It may not be effective for you, it may not fit your definition of "practical in a real fight." That is up to you to discover -- either by trying it, or perhaps just deciding never to try it.

Al Foote III
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Old 10-31-2001, 01:49 PM   #17
Ukemi
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Re: is aikido really practical

Quote:
Originally posted by ivan
But little is too done to punches and kicks.?
In a reaL fight who will hold ur arm rather than smashing ur nose in?
Ivan,

Aikido is very practical and works fine if you need it.

Real fight?? You have involved in a real fight in your life??

Real fight's have there set of rules even when there are no rules.

Ma-ai (the right distance between you and your oponent) is one of the fundations of Aikido. When you learn how to maintain that, you have time to manage the other guy to play by your rules. If you want him to grab your arm or kick you, even when he want's to smash your face, he only can do that if your face is at he's arm lenght.


regard's

Carlos
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Old 10-31-2001, 09:19 PM   #18
arvin m.
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Hey ivan listen i was wondering if u could just email me some stuff abt muay thai at akula71@hotmail.com. I'd just like to find out where u can train, some principles, perhaps techniques, maybe after my darn A-levels i hope we ca maybe cross train or something man...just like to broaden my scope of other MA and see how they can complement my aikido...looking forward to yer mail!! Oh feel free to post on this forum anything u would like to share about muay thai im sure many of use would like some insight into that art
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Old 10-31-2001, 11:10 PM   #19
stratcat
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Unhappy Things that make you go hmm...

Y'know, this is truly the thread that just refuses to die: the whole "Does Aikido REALLY work?"

Why do people always bring this up? If you have to ask, then the answer is NO, Aikido will not work for YOU.

Try it earnestly first, THEN complain. If you can't, won't or aren't willing to do so... GO AWAY.

P.S. Sorry, no offense. I'm kind of cranky today and we've gone over this d**n thread too many times.

Andy Hertz.
"Standing before me
enemies my mind does not ignore
I take a step forward
and act!"
Morihei Ueshiba
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Old 11-01-2001, 07:32 AM   #20
ivan
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muay thai

Well muay thai is a very desvasting art ..it actually trains and conditions ur body so that every part of ur body is as hard as steel and u r able to launch, attack , and move back at awsome speed. the moves are practical, therefore when applied it usually has a high hit rate and apllied with force and strength.The ideal of muay thai is that to make ur body fast,strongth and equip with with veri useful attack and counterattack skills.
Muay thai boxing also has one of the best defence and offence tactics juz below bruce lee's jeet kun do .example , even while attacking with ur fist, if the opponent were to be able to counter attack u, ur other hand and leg will be protecting ur whole body, furthermore with a great condtioned body and stamina, even if u were to take the blow, it is noting.Muay thai ables u to use ur arms, and other parts of ur body as weapons as they are very hard and strong.
But mind u , muay kicks are the most desvasting in the history of martial art .they are swift and hard..suppose to attack u from bay , which is long range attack, even if u were to block them ..the kicks will ram into ur ribs..the onli way is to move away..very dangerous i must say.
wherelse for close range comes the worst attack of all the knees and elbows..these attacks are train for one hit one kill ..i have seen poeple have a hole in their faces after a operation to never put back their check bones and ribs which cracks and puntures the heart and dies..
u might think that and elbow is blunt and short..but when applied can mean death.
example , my teacher said never to block a roundhouse from a muay thai fighter ..when blocked the blow will either crack ur hand or disable it , as u see when a fighter is hited by a roundhouse it is usually KO..becoz when the roundhouse attacks ur neck from the top driven its force downwards..it will break ur neck causing almost instant death.especially the elbow when use can be used as a jab , swing and unpercut..
Most of muat thai's tactics are meant to kill ..and really should not be rashly applied ..as i have learn that the tactics are really very deadly..most of them are all out to kill or disable the opponent..
the main point of muay thai is to train u to be very offensive and deadly,giving no mercy ..onli than will u apply the full force of muay thai ...
if u wan to learn a killing art and are willing to pay the price of devilish training ..like my always very badly bruise legs....badly like bruise that cover my whole shin like a suntan , than go and learn the art ...
thank you
ivan
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Old 11-01-2001, 08:24 AM   #21
Ghost Fox
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Is Aikido really practical in a real fight?

The answer to your question as in all martial arts is yes and no. All martial arts have inherent strengths and weaknesses, and not all styles are good for every situation. Aikido would not probably be my first choice in a closed environment like an elevator; a style like Wing Chun would be more effective. In an outdoor environment on unstable gravel Aikido would probably be more effective than TKD. Judo would probably be more effective on a slippery surface etc…

What you need to do is find a style that you enjoy and make it you core-style, for me that is Aikido. You then examine the style and analyze its strength and weaknesses. After you have study the style for a length of time and feel comfortable with the techniques you then begin to study other styles to fill for the weaknesses of the style. I will soon begin to choose another style to complement my Aikido.

A true martial artist cross-trains in various martial arts in order to have a large repertoire of techniques to choose from. This is the difference between a martial artist and a Aikidoka or Karatedoka, etc… I've trained in TKD, Karate, Aikijitsu and European fencing. I'm not saying that am a master of these styles but that I am familiar with their theories and stylistic limitations. It always amazes people who have studied other arts before Aikido how I can tell what arts they have taken without them telling me. This is another good reason to familiarize your self with other styles.

All styles have stylistic limitation based upon its foundational theory. Aikido is derived from Aikibujitsu, which derived its theory from the open Japanese battlefield. Before Aikibujitsu was developed most samurai practiced jujitsu. Jujitsu is a good martial art for one on one conflict, but it has stylistic limitations in the battlefield. Aikibujitsu allowed samurai to fight effectively in a multiple opponent situation with or without a sword in hand. Most Japanese styles subscribe to the one shoot, one kill approach to fighting, as oppose to the stick and move tactics of Wing Chun or Thai Kick Boxing. Neither theory is wrong, it is based on the culture background where the style was formulated.

The strength of Aikido are its ability to deal effectively with multiple attacks, its ability to control the strength of your response to attacks, its footwork and economy of energy and strength. It also builds a strong sense of timing and distance. Finally, Aikido can be practice effectively into old age.

Weaknesses of Aikido are, Aikido needs room to work. It is probably not as effective in a confined environment like an elevator or nightclub. Aikido has problems dealing with non-committed attacks such as short jabs, and quick low kicks. Also, most modern schools of Aikido do not provide enough cardiovascular or strength training.

Before the other aikidoka yell at me , I'm talking in generalities here. Aikido can be used successfully in a confined environment. I know an aikidoka who is a bouncer in some of the most crowded nightclubs in NYC, and he uses his aikido all the time to deal with situation, his Randori is amazing if not a little brutal. Also, in Budo by Ueshiba, he uses feints and attacks to lead into techniques, and I know certain aikidoka who pull people towards them to generate the extra energy needed to make an attack devastating.

In aikido we first train in Kihon Waza (basic technique), this teaches important concepts like timing, distancing and basic body movements. As we advance into the ranks of black belt we begin studying Oya Waza (applied/advance technique), this is what some of our senior instructors call the dark side of Aikido. Here you start learning about neck breaks, dislocation and the proper application of atemi (strikes).

For me personally, I love Aikido. If you train with intensity and passion you get a lot out of it. I personally believe I could use Aikido to help me in a self-defense situation. I also know if the opportunity to perform a knee to the ribs or an elbow-cross to the face presented itself in a fight I would take it. If the attacker failed to harmonize with my kick to the groin, that's his problem not mine.

On a side note, you might want to check out some schools in small circle or combat Jujitsu. For your particular interest I would stay away from Brazilian Jujitsu.

Peace and Blessings.

P.S. Aikidokas are long winded aren't we.
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Old 11-01-2001, 03:10 PM   #22
Kenn
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Sounds like you really enjoy the "killer" techniques of muay thai. My opinion, just from your brief comments here on the forum, would be that Aikido would not work.....for you.

I mean no offense, but you seem to not have the temperment for it. You want to learn an art that teaches you how to kill, maim, or at least hurt another person. This is completely opposite to what I believe the philosophy behind Aikido is.

Could you benefit from Aikido...sure. But I believe you'd first have to get past the question of whether or not Aikido is effective.

Aikido IS effective...but as many have said before me...when it comes to a conflict...it's more the martial artist than the martial art.

only my opinion, you are welcome to yours no matter how wrong you may be. :-)

Peace, Kenn

Kenn

Remember, the only way to be happy always, is to be happy always, without reason.
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Old 11-01-2001, 03:41 PM   #23
Blackice
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The effectivness of Aikido

I think aikido can be highly effective due to the fact that if you spend the time to learn and become good at it will be as effective as any over.The thought I have is that once learnt you would'nt just use the techinques sudue. All techinques can have atemi waza attached to them u can just take it a step futher and incorprate your own strikes effectily developing a personal version of ur aikido.

No offence meant to anyone just my opinion
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Old 11-01-2001, 06:43 PM   #24
PeterR
 
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Always the same question but I just look around my home dojo and others who study my particular style of Aikido.

We have Shotokan Karate, full contact Kyokushin and World Oyama people, Shuto and 6th Dan Judo, olympic level TKD, police and of course the most dangerous of them all, the 40+ Japanese housewife. I've trained with ex-US marines and Isralie rangers. All of them swear Aikido is one of the best, if not the best - of what they've studied.

Most of the above are serious people and with far more experience in fighting than I. Personally I have done full contact Japanese boxing and tend to agree. They don't come to Aikido for inner peace nor for the quick fix. There is something though that keeps them here. I doubt very much an art which claims a fighting heritage that didn't have teeth would not hold them.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 11-01-2001, 09:12 PM   #25
Ukemi
Dojo: Yamato Dojo - Copacabana - RJ
Location: Brasil
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 2
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Re: muay thai

Quote:
Originally posted by ivan
Well muay thai is a very desvasting art ..
But mind u , muay kicks are the most desvasting in the history of martial art .they are swift and hard..suppose to attack u from bay , which is long range attack, even if u were to block them ..the kicks will ram into ur ribs..the onli way is to move away..
Ivan,

I agreed,but every martial art (not sport), are lethal if you wanted that.

About the kicks, they work only when hit the target, if you enter inside the kicker, then you are out of combat... Look some Judo or BJJ class.

regard's

Carlos
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