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Old 02-15-2007, 10:00 PM   #1
Mike Hamer
 
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Guns?

Has anyone ever trained with guns in your aikido? Obviously not firing technique, but rather disarming.

To speak ill of anything is against the nature of Aikido
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Old 02-15-2007, 10:20 PM   #2
xuzen
 
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Re: Guns?

I have not been taught any gun disarm techniques in my studies.

Nor have I been taught any bow and arrow disarm, shuriken, throwing stars, throwing knife, remote controlled Improvised Explosive Device disarm as well. I guess a typical aikido syllabus do not cover projectile offense at all.

Boon.

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Old 02-15-2007, 11:54 PM   #3
Chris Li
 
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Re: Guns?

Quote:
Xu Wenfung wrote:
I have not been taught any gun disarm techniques in my studies.

Nor have I been taught any bow and arrow disarm, shuriken, throwing stars, throwing knife, remote controlled Improvised Explosive Device disarm as well. I guess a typical aikido syllabus do not cover projectile offense at all.

Boon.
Plenty of pictures around of Morihei Ueshiba doing take-aways against a wooden rifle and bayonet...

Used to be demonstrated at the All Japan every year as well.

Best,

Chris

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Old 02-16-2007, 01:26 AM   #4
Mike Hamer
 
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Re: Guns?

Does anyone know where I can see these pictures?

To speak ill of anything is against the nature of Aikido
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Old 02-16-2007, 04:53 AM   #5
Beard of Chuck Norris
 
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Re: Guns?

Might not be aikido per se but Hatsumi Sensei of bujinkan ninjutsu fame applies techniques and principals that are quite aiki in nature and he demonstrates gun dis-arms using these techniques / principals.
He also shows some more ninjaness when it comes to gaining control of the weapon whilst putting your finger over the attackers finger on the trigger... no finger prints on the gun!

A clip from a series that was on tv not long ago...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wksvKJ8-w4o

peace and love

jo
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Old 02-16-2007, 08:12 AM   #6
Chris Li
 
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Re: Guns?

Quote:
Mikel Hamer wrote:
Does anyone know where I can see these pictures?
Try "Budo", from 1938. Tapes of the All Japan Aikido Demonstration before Iimura died in 2004 should have him demonstrating these techniques as well

Best,

Chris

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Old 02-16-2007, 08:25 AM   #7
Amendes
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Re: Guns?

Quote:
Mikel Hamer wrote:
Has anyone ever trained with guns in your aikido? Obviously not firing technique, but rather disarming.

Yes, a few times.

We do not focus on them as much though as we do knifes.
Seems the weapon of choice here where I live is knifes. Very rarley will you ever see a gun here, and if you do it's almost always a long gun.
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Old 02-16-2007, 09:17 AM   #8
Jim Sorrentino
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Re: Guns?

Hello Mikel,
Quote:
Mikel Hamer wrote:
Has anyone ever trained with guns in your aikido? Obviously not firing technique, but rather disarming.
I have taught and practiced gun disarms with a colleague who is a certified Simunitions (r) instructor. Simunitions are cartridges with a round made of a chalk-like material. They are accurate out to about seven yards, and contain enough propellant to cycle most semi-automatic weapons --- and that is the big advantage to Simunitions: they work in the user's own gun. Semi-auto pistol users must use a Simunitions barrel which will not chamber live ammo. Revolver users insert a set of rings into all the chambers of the gun so that it cannot chamber live ammo. There is even a Simunition round for 12-gauge pump-action shotguns.

Users must wear appropriate protection --- Simunitions may pierce the skin and cause serious injury (and they hurt). Further, the only appropriate practice area is an outdoor or indoor range or shoot-house. All participants who are not practicing a given scenario must remain behind cover during the practice.

No live ammo or any other live weapons (knives, batons, etc.) are allowed in the training area. All participants submit to a search before training begins.

My experience with this kind of training is that aikido techniques such as kotegaeshi and nikkyo are quite effective if the attacker either closes the distance, or is close enough for the defender to close the distance before the attacker can fire. Often (again, only in my experience), the weapon would either misfire, or the attacker would not be able to press the trigger during the disarm. When the weapon did fire, the path of the Simunition was either upward or downward at a fairly steep angle. The rounds did not hit the defender, although the attacker was not always so lucky.

There is another interesting kind of training with guns: weapons retention, either in the holster (for a uniformed peace officer), or in the hand(s) (PO or civilian with a CCW "permit"). Aikido principles, such as keeping a low center, work quite well to keep the weapon where it belongs --- but the defender (the one with the gun) must sometimes shoot the attacker off the end of the gun.

This training is intense, both physically and mentally. Please don't try it without a certified Simunitions instructor. Bear in mind that you or your partner may break your weapon, as well as some fingers, hands, or wrists.

Jim
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Old 02-16-2007, 09:47 AM   #9
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Re: Guns?

Quote:
Christopher Li wrote:
Plenty of pictures around of Morihei Ueshiba doing take-aways against a wooden rifle and bayonet...
Even O'Sensei would have zero chance of survival against a rifle such as the .50 caliber Barrett, whose bullet can find its mark from a mile away. The real trick, which he knew well, is keeping people from wanting to kill you in the first place.

Drew
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Old 02-16-2007, 09:51 AM   #10
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Re: Guns?

We train with guns from time to time. Aikido works great anytime someone has anythiing in their hand that they want to keep or use against you.

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Old 02-16-2007, 11:06 AM   #11
Chris Li
 
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Re: Guns?

Quote:
Drew Gardner wrote:
Even O'Sensei would have zero chance of survival against a rifle such as the .50 caliber Barrett, whose bullet can find its mark from a mile away. The real trick, which he knew well, is keeping people from wanting to kill you in the first place.

Drew
And someone wiht a .50 caliber Barett would have zero chance of survival against a smart bomb dropped from miles in the air, but that doesn't mean that the rifle is useless.

Sure, keeping people from wanting to kill you in the first place is the most desirable option, but it is because that doesn't always work that Morihei Ueshiba spent sixty years practicing martial technique.

Best,

Chris

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Old 02-16-2007, 11:10 AM   #12
gregstec
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Re: Guns?

Quote:
Mikel Hamer wrote:
Has anyone ever trained with guns in your aikido? Obviously not firing technique, but rather disarming.
Yes, years ago at a Ki Society dojo on a Navy base overseas. Focus was on hand gun disarmament using similar techniques as those used for tanto disarmament. Never used real weapons; mostly rubber and occasionally a water pistol; if you did not get wet, you lived, etc.

As Jim Sorrentino mentions, these techniques only have a good chance of working from close range. If you have to take a step to reach the gun, you most likely will get shot.

Greg Steckel
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Old 02-16-2007, 12:36 PM   #13
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Re: Guns?

Quote:
Christopher Li wrote:

Sure, keeping people from wanting to kill you in the first place is the most desirable option, but it is because that doesn't always work that Morihei Ueshiba spent sixty years practicing martial technique.

Best,

Chris
Did O'Sensei ever have to physically defend himself with any of the martial techniques he practiced? I know he did in some of what could be fairy tales, but howabout in reality? I'm curious.

Drew
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Old 02-16-2007, 06:40 PM   #14
L. Camejo
 
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Re: Guns?

Quote:
Greg Steckel wrote:
As Jim Sorrentino mentions, these techniques only have a good chance of working from close range. If you have to take a step to reach the gun, you most likely will get shot.
Hi Greg,

How do you define "a step"? Is it just beyond arm's range (i.e. can be comfortably reached and controlled with a good tsugi ashi step) or well beyond arm's range (where the step is so long that the average gunman would be able to track and fire before you are able to get hands on the gun)? The reason I ask is because there are some training methods where one can get to the gun and disarm within one step range and these methods are Aikido-based as well.

Regarding the original question gun training is not an official part of our syllabus, but Tomiki Sensei did demonstrate gun defenses in his book "Judo and Aikido" which we sometimes practice. Also I have done some training in the Aikido Control Tactics System (ACTS) under Rocky Izumi Sensei, one of its co-founders. ACTS is a defensive tactics system designed for LEOs and its core strategy and tactics are all found in Aikido . It also includes weapon retention among other elements. Of course Izumi Sensei is the ideal person to ask any questions about this.

There are a few other systems out there that are Aikido-based. I know there is the "On Guard" system by Shihan Block of Canada who is of Yoshinkan lineage I believe (now goes under Chudokan I think). From my experience the Aiki waza generally lend themselves well to handgun type training.

Just my 5 cents.
LC

Last edited by L. Camejo : 02-16-2007 at 06:55 PM.

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Old 02-17-2007, 09:35 AM   #15
Eric Webber
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Re: Guns?

Quote:
Mikel Hamer wrote:
Has anyone ever trained with guns in your aikido? Obviously not firing technique, but rather disarming.
We have used toy/cap guns in practice to simulate real hand guns. We generally use standard aikido techniques (i.e. kotegeishi, ikkyo) from a distance of a few feet. Obviously, trying to accomplish kotegeishi from 15 feet away is difficult. We have also used umbrellas, rolling pins, and my favorite - hand towels as defensive implements.
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Old 02-17-2007, 02:51 PM   #16
gregstec
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Re: Guns?

Quote:
Larry Camejo wrote:
Hi Greg,

How do you define "a step"? Is it just beyond arm's range (i.e. can be comfortably reached and controlled with a good tsugi ashi step) or well beyond arm's range (where the step is so long that the average gunman would be able to track and fire before you are able to get hands on the gun)? The reason I ask is because there are some training methods where one can get to the gun and disarm within one step range and these methods are Aikido-based as well.
The chances of survival diminishes logarithmically in proportion to the distance required to reach the gun. Just out of arm reach can easily be accomplished; however, well out of arm's reach makes the grab a lot less likely.

Regards

Greg
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Old 02-18-2007, 03:43 AM   #17
Amir Krause
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Re: Guns?

I have practiced gun disarms in Korindo Aikido, I have also sudied those in TKD and in a short dedicated Krav-Maga seminar on this topic.

The concept and application were immensly similar in all the styles:
1. Gun disarms are based on the assupmtion the distance is very short - gun touching your body sort of distance, well below hand distance to the gun.
2. In practice, those are low prcentage techniques, this was the indication I had from all teachers. Anyone who thinks knowing and practicing those tehniques should make him safe is delusional.
3. Neutrelize the gun (control it) and then continue your way - locks in Aikido, punches in KM. Do't let go of the gun and be aware of it's direction at all times.


Hope non of us here will ever need these techniques for real.
Amir
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Old 02-20-2007, 01:15 AM   #18
Edward
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Re: Guns?

Same here. We do it from time to time. There are 4 or 5 standard positions:

gun pointed at lower back or back of the head.
gun pointed at chest or forehead from a frontal position.
uke grabs left collar or chokes from behind with gun pointed at the right temple.

Apart from the usual Kote Gaeshi and Ikkyo/Nikkyo, we also use a variant of Sankyo for the 3rd situation.

Quote:
Eric Webber wrote: View Post
We have used toy/cap guns in practice to simulate real hand guns. We generally use standard aikido techniques (i.e. kotegeishi, ikkyo) from a distance of a few feet.
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Old 02-20-2007, 09:34 PM   #19
Mike Hamer
 
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Re: Guns?

I cross train in Instinctive Response Training where we practice simmilar situations. I was wondering how aikido disarming techniques might differ from what I do there.

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Old 02-24-2007, 06:32 PM   #20
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Re: Guns?

Quote:
Mikel Hamer wrote: View Post
Has anyone ever trained with guns in your aikido? Obviously not firing technique, but rather disarming.
We do close range pistol disarms in our Yoshinkan classes.

Jim Mc Coy
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Old 02-28-2007, 02:12 AM   #21
Mike Hamer
 
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Re: Guns?

Kotegaishi I think works well to disarm a gun from someones hand, but It kind of makes the gun pointed in your general area yes?

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Old 02-28-2007, 05:49 AM   #22
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Re: Guns?

Quote:
Mikel Hamer wrote: View Post
Kotegaishi I think works well to disarm a gun from someones hand, but It kind of makes the gun pointed in your general area yes?
??? Not when we do it. It points away from you during the kuzushi and then back at the attacker when the lock is applied. There may be a danger to bystanders who are in the line of fire during kuzushi however.

LC

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Old 02-28-2007, 03:07 PM   #23
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Guns?

Actually I train with guns a fair amount these days. However, our training is situational for soldiers in "too close to shoot" scenarios.

i.e. they enter into a building and they are jumped and clinched, or knocked to the ground and mounted.

Suprisingly enough, in the clinch, you see many things that start to look familiar to many aikido methods. With a rifle, I see no real difference between that and a Jo staff.

We do train pistol techniques, but most of them are designed around protecting your pistol before it is drawn or when the bad guy is trying to obtain it, or you are being dominated and then you must draw it...when to, and when not too!

I was discussing my training the other day with a former defensive tactics instructor. Our training differs slightly as my rules of engagement frequently allow for more force, or allow me to pull a knife and stab. Rules of engagement/use of force criteria can affect what and how you train with guns.

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Old 03-15-2007, 10:59 PM   #24
Kenji_08
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Re: Guns?

Your safest bet if a gun is drawn on you is to runaway. If that is not an option negotiate and make an attempt to get closer. In my TKD class we are taught with a rubber gun. The key is to not let it cross your body. Most guns have a finger ring which can affectively break a finger or cause him to let go. Another option, If you have someone who wont let go, is to deploy the safety this could buy you time.

regards,
Trevor
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Old 03-16-2007, 12:46 AM   #25
KIT
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Re: Guns?

IF the weapon even has a safety. Some very popular firearms (Glock, Sig) do not.

Couple things:

1. Just 'cuz you get shot doesn't mean you are dead. Think less of it as your "chance of surviving" and more as "your chance of being shot."

This is of course not to convince anyone to go ahead and try to disarm a gunman, but if for some reason you have become so unlucky to have to do so, and you end up getting shot, don't think "I'm dead" but rather let that warrior spirit well up in you and know you will survive. That may literally make the difference.

(Never been shot, but I know people who have, and righteous indignation seemed to be what pulled them through some serious wounds.)

2. Grab the slide (on semi-autos). Avoid the muzzle, but firmly take hold of the slide. You can kote gaeshi with one hand on the wrist and the other on the slide with the same turn, bringing the muzzle sharply toward him. That alone may disarm him. Either way, it will help to prevent him twisting the gun or his wrist even in your hold to keep the muzzle from crossing yours or another's body.

Yes, he can get one round off. Hopefully the muzzle is pointed at him, or a safe direction, when this happens. After that, he will have to clear the weapon in order to fire it again, so you will actually be fighting over a piece of inert (for the time being) metal at that time.

No, it won't "blow your hand off" or "tear it to shreds." You have to hold tight or the sights could cut your hand a bit. At best you will feel a little heat and get some powder marks (NOT burns) on your hand.
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