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Old 05-12-2007, 08:00 PM   #51
gregg block
 
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Re: Poll: How physically effective do you think aikido is against a real knife attack

I get what you are saying, but I never said anything about skill levels. I said it depends on the attacker and the defender. It also depends on the weather, is it dark or light. Are they on grass or asphalt. What are they wearing. IT is prudent to try to train for all possible situations but you will never be able to train for all possible situations. What Im saying is that "it depends" is the only way to attempt to answer the question with any truthfulness as the variables are endless. The two constants are the attacker and the defender. So again it depends on them and how they respond to each within the environmental confines of combat.
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Old 05-12-2007, 11:13 PM   #52
senshincenter
 
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Re: Poll: How physically effective do you think aikido is against a real knife attack

I'm afraid I do not understand you then. From what I am gathering from what you are saying, it seems you ARE saying the attacker and the defender are variables - not constants (or no more constant than "the environment", "the time of day", etc. - which are also a matter of "it depends". Perhaps you can explain that part a bit more.

Yet, even if I am to understand your "how they respond" to not be a matter of skill level, when it comes to matters of victory and/or survivability, others in the thread have at least implied that they are not against understanding skill level as the main ingredient for "it depends". Hence my position. Regardless, and however though, the question posed is not asking whether Mr. X with his knife attack or Mr. Y. with his Aikido will gain victory. The question posed is speaking generally and thus looking at things from the point of view of "all things being equal". It makes no sense to say "but all things are not equal" or "in real life," particularly if one does not want to talk about skill levels, right after one wants to speak generally about a topic. The question, in its "generally speaking" already understands that the variables are endless, that it is pointless then to speak about this in any other way than generally, or in terms of all things being equal. Again, this is even more true when one does not want to speak in terms of skill levels. For these reasons, I feel what I wrote is still applicable - that martial arts, and especially martial artists that are concerned with combat survivability, are supposed to look beyond "it depends," to moves that don't just work against this specific person or within that specific environment, during that specific time, but toward what are considered "high percentage tactics and strategies" - moves that function generally, and generally well. Don't get me wrong, it still depends, it will always depend, but at the level of practice that takes place via contemplation and training, where the position of "all things being equal" is always assumed, this is only stating the obvious and thus no reason at all for understanding one's training one way and not another. In other words, "it depends" has everything to do with reality and nothing to do with this question.

dmv

David M. Valadez
Visit our web site for articles and videos. Senshin Center - A Place for Traditional Martial Arts in Santa Barbara.
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Old 05-12-2007, 11:58 PM   #53
kironin
 
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Re: Poll: How physically effective do you think aikido is against a real knife attack

Quote:
Chuck Clark wrote: View Post
I've uploaded three images of wounds sustained by a police officer that thought he could disarm someone with a knife. He decided to not use his duty pistol, stick, etc.
What kind of training made him have so much confidence as to ignore his own weapons? Just having the stick would be a godsend.

shields were invented for a reason. it sucks that garbage can lids are all now plastic.

Any one that thinks it's very effective needs to wake up. Even the most effective training is still for the worst case scenario where you have NO other choices and you don't want to be in that situation and you certainly don't want to choose to be in that situation where you have no tool other than your body and escape and evasion is not an option.

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Old 05-13-2007, 12:58 AM   #54
Chuck Clark
 
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Re: Poll: How physically effective do you think aikido is against a real knife attack

The short and heartbreaking answer is... he got the training the citizens of his community were willing to pay for... and he obviously made a wrong decision on top of that.

Chuck Clark
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Old 05-13-2007, 08:22 AM   #55
L. Camejo
 
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Re: Poll: How physically effective do you think aikido is against a real knife attack

Looking at the amount of cuts to the back that the officer got it would be interesting to get the details of the encounter.

From my own experience there are not that many members of Law Enforcement that are highly skilled in empty handed tactics to the point where one could handle a serious knife attacker without getting wounded. If he was trained properly he would not have abandoned any other weapon or leverage such as a stick to go empty handed against a knife. The training methods I've encountered make it clear that empty handed is your last resort for engaging the attacker, a weapon to increase range or a shield is always preferable.

I'm not sure the average LEO is as well trained as many martial artists in empty handed ability either, the operational procedures don't often require this skillset to be a necessity imho. So though the photos are great reality checks I'd not hold up a LEO as any standard for skill in empty handed tactics.

I agree with David V.'s comments above. Of the 2 training partners I've had who got into knife altercations both were able to escape uncut, getting posession of the blade while not severely injuring the attacker. One was a low kyu and one was no kyu.

In these things your will to survive is as important as any other factor imho and any tools to assist that survival is a plus for you, so I'd be hard pressed to say that one's tanto dori training, which brings into play things like peripheral vision, awareness, distancing, evasion tactics, dealing with an ambush, applied techniques etc. will be of no help to someone caught in a bad situation. Of course what I refer to as tanto dori may not be the same as others.

Part of Budo training is about analyzing and understanding violence to find ways to avoid it if possible and overcome it where necessary. No one said it would be pretty or easy imho.

Gambatte.
LC

--Mushin Mugamae - No Mind No Posture. He who is possessed by nothing possesses everything.--
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Old 05-13-2007, 10:34 AM   #56
senshincenter
 
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Re: Poll: How physically effective do you think aikido is against a real knife attack

While I do not think the following takes anything away from what can happen when you are facing a knife attack, there are a lot of doubts surrounding these pictures.

For me, they came to me pretty much as they were presented here - with no background. They were passed my way by one of the officers I have trained in ARCON. He too stated they were pictures of a cop - but he had no other "facts" than that.

Please consider the following:

http://www.snopes.com/photos/gruesome/kunsan.asp

THE FOLLOWING VIDEO ARE ALL VERY GRAPHIC!!!

Here's an example of neither controlling time/space, no superior weapons technology, and "luck" determining the end result more than anything:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ifRFPwimlts

Here's an example of not controlling time/space, only having superior weapons technology:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-bRSu3zABog

Here's an example of controlling time/space and having superior weapon technology on one's disposal:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fNcasIEsluk

dmv

David M. Valadez
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Old 05-13-2007, 03:16 PM   #57
Chuck Clark
 
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Re: Poll: How physically effective do you think aikido is against a real knife attack

David, thanks for doing some research. I was sent these by an LEO acquaintance that said they were of an officer that had tried to disarm someone with a knife. No names, etc. were involved. I always try to look into things I receive but didn't think it was necessary with this fellow. The pictures are still a good lesson.

Chuck Clark
Jiyushinkai Aikibudo
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Old 05-13-2007, 05:39 PM   #58
Aikibu
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Re: Poll: How physically effective do you think aikido is against a real knife attack

I emphatically vote no...Unless you are the type of Aikidoka who has an extensive background in some form of knife fighting and practices it consistantly.

I recommended this article to Sensei Ledyard a brief while back on Martial Arts vs Knife Fighting...In the Volume 15 Number 4 2006 Journal of Asian Martial Arts John McCurry and Eliot Lee Grossman J.D. wrote a great article titled "The Top Ten Errors of Martial Artists Defending Against a Blade."

The Abstract Quote: "There are ten deadly errors which make most empty-handed martial arts techniques against a knife ineffective. The principle error stems from the fact that few present-day martial systems teach the blade. The premise of this article is that to effectively defend against a knife,you need to know how to use one. The purpose of this article is to motivate martial arts instructors to analyze more critically thier unarmed knife defense techniques based on a clear understanding of the use of the knife, and to reawaken interest in the blade arts in the martial arts community."

The Article's Top Ten Errors...

1. Not knowing how to fight with a blade.
2. Improper Mind-set and lack of Blade Awareness
3. Incorrect Structure
4. Blocking
5. Kicking
6. Permitting Gaps Between You and the Attacker
7. Using Techniques Designed for Unarmed Adversaries
8. Ignoring the Adversary's Checking Hand
9. Failing to Follow-up
10. Unrealistic Training.

After careful study of the authors reasons I came to the conclusion that unless we revamped our practice to include serious and consistant study of the tanto that my students would be better off going to someone like Mr. McCurry to learn about knife fighting rather that suffer the perhaps fatal delusion that they are properly trained to handle someone with a knife. I sure hope Mr. McCurry's practice gains wider interest within our community.

William Hazen

Last edited by Aikibu : 05-13-2007 at 05:46 PM.
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Old 05-13-2007, 07:02 PM   #59
senshincenter
 
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Re: Poll: How physically effective do you think aikido is against a real knife attack

I would like to add the fact that it does not take much skill to hurt, seriously injure, or even kill someone with a knife. The weapon is not just a tactical variable. Like all weapons, the knife increases one's defensive and offensive ability - greatly. Thus, for example, one serious kick-ass martial artist, with loads of expertise in loads of knife-disarming/control techniques, even one that trains in knife fighting, has seriously got his/her hands full when facing some idiot with a knife that just starts stabbing and slashing all over the place as fast as they can.

For example, while I do not advocate kicking as THE solution, and while we should note the crazy limiting factor of "being in an elevator," etc., we can see how full one's hands would be by watching the first part of this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DXvx8HBMTYA

Yeah, Chuck, that is how those pics came my way, but even then, I was a little suspicious as to the type of the wounds manifested in light of the modern types of body armor that is now worn in most places. So, I wasn't too surprised either after I did some research on the story. Nevertheless, as I said, as you said, the pics still show the issue at hand, whatever their specific scenario.

thanks,
dmv

David M. Valadez
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