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Old 09-09-2007, 11:01 AM   #151
gregg block
 
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Re: Aiki-Boxing

Quote:
Dan Austin wrote: View Post
William,

All I did was poke fun at your capitalization quirks; now I think you are just using this to avoid answering any substantive questions. Poor you, so picked on...let's stick to the facts shall we?

So you say. Even if true, a sample of one is meaningless. I also note that while you told Dalen to train one thing at a time, you yourself crosstrain and apparently call it Aikido. In any case you are still avoiding giving meaningful answers, which I predicted.

I'm not interested in you personally, I continue the conversation for the benefit of people like Dalen who deserve a spectrum of honest views to evaluate. Furthermore I cannot prove a negative. I can't put together a video proving that Aikido doesn't work, but all you need to do is provide one decent example that it does. The empirical evidence is all on the side of cooperative training being a poor means of preparing for a competitive endeavor. You are the one saying it isn't so. You in effect claim the moon is made of green cheese, and if I don't believe you, I should build a rocket ship and go visit it. Doesn't work that way. The burden of proof is on you to provide something that makes an outlandish claim the least bit believable. As predicted, you have nothing to back up your fan worship of the super-Aikido teachers you admire.

Well, these aren't the days before YouTube. And *I* don't have any questions. I have never seen Aikido that compares favorably to competitive combat arts. I already know what sort of training leads to functional skill, and it is common sense. You are claiming something that is not common sense. You might fool a Dalen into visiting someone who seems impressive, but impressing newbies is easy. He needs a base of competitive combat training to evaluate a teacher and a teaching method. If he just goes to one of your recommendations he'll likely be swilling KoolAid in no time, and asking the same question years later.

I can't help people without any sense, and I only talk for the benefit of those who ask questions. I don't want to impose my view or piss in anyone's KoolAid if they're enjoying it.
Lot of talk but thats about it. I trained mixed martial arts for years and would never say any style is ineffective. It's practioners who are flawed not styles. Debate some more if you want its all just talk.
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Old 09-09-2007, 12:18 PM   #152
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Re: Aiki-Boxing

Quote:
Gregg Block wrote: View Post
Lot of talk but thats about it. I trained mixed martial arts for years and would never say any style is ineffective. It's practioners who are flawed not styles. Debate some more if you want its all just talk.
Not to repeat myself, but for the record I do not say that Aikido is "ineffective" or can never be used, I said it was inefficient - to the point that many practitioners will never get much in the way of real ability. The old saw about styles not being flawed is simply not true. The man, the training method, and the art all matter. Remove the man from this equation and the training methods and styles are not equally efficient in producing results. That's common sense and empirically obvious - it's the talk denying this that is empty.
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Old 09-09-2007, 12:21 PM   #153
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Re: Aiki-Boxing

Quote:
Dan Austin wrote: View Post
William,

All I did was poke fun at your capitalization quirks; now I think you are just using this to avoid answering any substantive questions. Poor you, so picked on...let's stick to the facts shall we?

So you say. Even if true, a sample of one is meaningless. I also note that while you told Dalen to train one thing at a time, you yourself crosstrain and apparently call it Aikido. In any case you are still avoiding giving meaningful answers, which I predicted.

I'm not interested in you personally, I continue the conversation for the benefit of people like Dalen who deserve a spectrum of honest views to evaluate. Furthermore I cannot prove a negative. I can't put together a video proving that Aikido doesn't work, but all you need to do is provide one decent example that it does. The empirical evidence is all on the side of cooperative training being a poor means of preparing for a competitive endeavor. You are the one saying it isn't so. You in effect claim the moon is made of green cheese, and if I don't believe you, I should build a rocket ship and go visit it. Doesn't work that way. The burden of proof is on you to provide something that makes an outlandish claim the least bit believable. As predicted, you have nothing to back up your fan worship of the super-Aikido teachers you admire.

Well, these aren't the days before YouTube. And *I* don't have any questions. I have never seen Aikido that compares favorably to competitive combat arts. I already know what sort of training leads to functional skill, and it is common sense. You are claiming something that is not common sense. You might fool a Dalen into visiting someone who seems impressive, but impressing newbies is easy. He needs a base of competitive combat training to evaluate a teacher and a teaching method. If he just goes to one of your recommendations he'll likely be swilling KoolAid in no time, and asking the same question years later.

I can't help people without any sense, and I only talk for the benefit of those who ask questions. I don't want to impose my view or piss in anyone's KoolAid if they're enjoying it.
Dan I agree with you, the realities of self defense for some Aikidoist just makes no sense. Some are quite delusional about realities.
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Old 09-09-2007, 12:55 PM   #154
L. Camejo
 
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Re: Aiki-Boxing

Quote:
The man, the training method, and the art all matter. Remove the man from this equation and the training methods and styles are not equally efficient in producing results. That's common sense and empirically obvious
I think this is quite true. The problem is that there is no single common training method within "Aikido" not even within the Aikikai which represents the root heritage of Aikido. William indicated as much when he said-
Quote:
What syllabus are you reffering too Dan??? Nishio...Shodokan...Tomiki...Yosheinkan...Hombu...Iwama...
Obata...Ki...Last I counted there are over 20... all of them rooted in Aikido
In this case one cannot say categorically that "Aikido is/isnot.does/cannot do ...." unless there is a specific qualification about which or whose Aikido one is referring to. There are a few schools of Aikido that use non-competitive practices as a core part of the training method to develop skills that are usable within the self-defence realm. Sadly they by no means represent the "popular" image typically associated with "Aikido."

For myself and my own students it has served quite well repeatedly. There is no question. It has even served quite well in the face of Judo and Jujutsu. But then we do not use a totally cooperative training paradigm in our method.

William: Regarding Shodokan Sensei in the L.A. area Peter is correct. I think Bob is one of the best guys to ask. Alternatively you can check the JAA/USA site here - http://www.tomiki.org/members.html.

Just some thoughts.

LC

Last edited by L. Camejo : 09-09-2007 at 12:58 PM.

--Mushin Mugamae - No Mind No Posture. He who is possessed by nothing possesses everything.--
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Old 09-09-2007, 03:09 PM   #155
Aikibu
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Re: Aiki-Boxing

Quote:
Dan Austin wrote: View Post
William,

All I did was poke fun at your capitalization quirks; now I think you are just using this to avoid answering any substantive questions. Poor you, so picked on...let's stick to the facts shall we?
What facts??? You have yet to present any Dan...You talk about the "Syllabus of Aikido" but you can't discribe what that is much past "cooperative training" and the irony here is be it sparring... Non-Compliant Uke's... or Compliant Uke's... All training between partners is cooprative.... To say otherwise is just plain stupid, and does not reflect any Martial Art on this Planet much less the Moon.. Unless of course you been fed a diet of Chop Sockey/Bloodsport movies where your training partner always dies during practice. LOL

Quote:
So you say. Even if true, a sample of one is meaningless. I also note that while you told Dalen to train one thing at a time, you yourself crosstrain and apparently call it Aikido. In any case you are still avoiding giving meaningful answers, which I predicted.
Here's a meaningful answer for you. You have no idea what Aikido is so why should you be giving any advice to folks like Dalen? I told Dalen to focus and practice hard, and the answer would become clear to him.

Quote:
I'm not interested in you personally, I continue the conversation for the benefit of people like Dalen who deserve a spectrum of honest views to evaluate. Furthermore I cannot prove a negative. I can't put together a video proving that Aikido doesn't work, but all you need to do is provide one decent example that it does. The empirical evidence is all on the side of cooperative training being a poor means of preparing for a competitive endeavor. You are the one saying it isn't so. You in effect claim the moon is made of green cheese, and if I don't believe you, I should build a rocket ship and go visit it. Doesn't work that way. The burden of proof is on you to provide something that makes an outlandish claim the least bit believable. As predicted, you have nothing to back up your fan worship of the super-Aikido teachers you admire.
No of course you're not attacking me personally .You're just personally attacking me...That's all your left with.... Talking the Talk. I can't help it if you can't back up what you say with action because you're too lazy to prove your own theories or do your own research. All you've done is pick up on a couple tired old memes passed around since manly men were bold enough to hide behind a keyboard and proclaim entire Martial Systems ineffective based on "anecdotal empiricism" That and avoiding answering any questions by turning the question back at anyone who dares ask you to explain yourself. Again Talking the Talk Dan does not mean you know how to Walk the Walk and this becomes more obvious everytime you post. You don't really have a clue about Aikido do you???

Quote:
Well, these aren't the days before YouTube. And *I* don't have any questions. I have never seen Aikido that compares favorably to competitive combat arts. I already know what sort of training leads to functional skill, and it is common sense. You are claiming something that is not common sense. You might fool a Dalen into visiting someone who seems impressive, but impressing newbies is easy. He needs a base of competitive combat training to evaluate a teacher and a teaching method. If he just goes to one of your recommendations he'll likely be swilling KoolAid in no time, and asking the same question years later.
Dalen has gotton allot of good tips here, some from the folks I reffered to, and you've indirectly insulted have posted.

Quote:
I can't help people without any sense, and I only talk for the benefit of those who ask questions. I don't want to impose my view or piss in anyone's KoolAid if they're enjoying it.
This paragraph speaks for you perfectly and does not need any additional comment from me.

I trust folks enough to know that they can figure this out for themselves.

William Hazen

Last edited by Aikibu : 09-09-2007 at 03:17 PM.
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Old 09-09-2007, 03:22 PM   #156
Aikibu
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Re: Aiki-Boxing

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Peter Rehse wrote: View Post
Hmm - the guy to ask would be Bob King - one of the people in the aiki-boxing clips. I saw his Yondan test in front of Nariyama Shihan about 7 years (?) ago. He would be much more up on who is where in the US - Shodokan wise.
Thanks Peter. I will check him out.

William Hazen
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Old 09-09-2007, 03:22 PM   #157
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Re: Aiki-Boxing

Hi folks,

Please keep the language and tone respectful, even (especially) if you disagree with others here.

Thank you,

-- Jun

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Old 09-09-2007, 03:43 PM   #158
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Re: Aiki-Boxing

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Larry Camejo wrote: View Post
I think this is quite true. The problem is that there is no single common training method within "Aikido" not even within the Aikikai which represents the root heritage of Aikido.
Larry,

I don't have a problem with that, it's difficult to speak concisely and not have people take away different meanings anyway. If someone asks the question, "Is Aikido effective?" they generally are asking whether they will develop a good level of self-defense proficiency for their time invested. Often the most honest answer to this is "probably not", but using the word "ineffective" does not mean "can't ever be used". Anything *can* be used, the question is how reliably for how many practitioners.

That said, of course Aikido is not some monolithic practice. In general however, many if not most Asian martial arts are closely tied to their weapons origins, or for other historical reasons contain a syllabus of techniques that do not correlate well to modern empty hand fighting. Things like rising blocks and reverse punches may be applicable if you're holding or thrusting certain types of weapon, but they are not suitable for dealing with boxing punches that are retracted as quickly as they are thrown. It seems many Aikidoka talk about an "attacker" as someone who literally attacks without regard for minimizing counter attacks. In fact, street attackers either cheat as much as possible to ensure their success, or tend to choose victims they think they can take. Nobody is going to throw a punch that hangs out in space, or simply allow themselves to be countered without fully resisting every effort to control them. In other words dealing with fully resistive boxing and wrestling attacks is the norm, not some rare thing to be discussed once in a blue moon. The obvious arts to deal with those attacks are boxing and wrestling, yet for some reason many people avoid the syllabus that evolved with these attacks in favor of "exotic" Asian approaches to solving a different problem.

So there are two obvious elements, cooperative vs competitive training methods, and the realism of both the attacks and counters. Training Aikido in a more competitive way can be good, but the choice of technique is still paramount. Techniques like kotegaishi have very limited scope and applicability even if trained in a more aggressive manner. If we're wrestling over a jo, great, but for what else?

There are things that can be taken from many Asian martial arts, but if one is honest about the applicability toward common attacks and the need to train them in a competitive way, it's going to look more and more like Western combat than anything classically Asian. People should do what they enjoy, and there are many reasons to enjoy something like Aikido, but what is really the point of even trying to make something derived from Japanese sword work into a Western combat art?
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Old 09-09-2007, 04:56 PM   #159
salim
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Re: Aiki-Boxing

Quote:
Dan Austin wrote: View Post
Larry,

I don't have a problem with that, it's difficult to speak concisely and not have people take away different meanings anyway. If someone asks the question, "Is Aikido effective?" they generally are asking whether they will develop a good level of self-defense proficiency for their time invested. Often the most honest answer to this is "probably not", but using the word "ineffective" does not mean "can't ever be used". Anything *can* be used, the question is how reliably for how many practitioners.

That said, of course Aikido is not some monolithic practice. In general however, many if not most Asian martial arts are closely tied to their weapons origins, or for other historical reasons contain a syllabus of techniques that do not correlate well to modern empty hand fighting. Things like rising blocks and reverse punches may be applicable if you're holding or thrusting certain types of weapon, but they are not suitable for dealing with boxing punches that are retracted as quickly as they are thrown. It seems many Aikidoka talk about an "attacker" as someone who literally attacks without regard for minimizing counter attacks. In fact, street attackers either cheat as much as possible to ensure their success, or tend to choose victims they think they can take. Nobody is going to throw a punch that hangs out in space, or simply allow themselves to be countered without fully resisting every effort to control them. In other words dealing with fully resistive boxing and wrestling attacks is the norm, not some rare thing to be discussed once in a blue moon. The obvious arts to deal with those attacks are boxing and wrestling, yet for some reason many people avoid the syllabus that evolved with these attacks in favor of "exotic" Asian approaches to solving a different problem.

So there are two obvious elements, cooperative vs competitive training methods, and the realism of both the attacks and counters. Training Aikido in a more competitive way can be good, but the choice of technique is still paramount. Techniques like kotegaishi have very limited scope and applicability even if trained in a more aggressive manner. If we're wrestling over a jo, great, but for what else?

There are things that can be taken from many Asian martial arts, but if one is honest about the applicability toward common attacks and the need to train them in a competitive way, it's going to look more and more like Western combat than anything classically Asian. People should do what they enjoy, and there are many reasons to enjoy something like Aikido, but what is really the point of even trying to make something derived from Japanese sword work into a Western combat art?
Wow, it's about time someone made sense around here. I could not have said it better. Dan, I really appreciate your integrity of real life self defense. It definitely has inspired me to want to learn more about boxing and wrestling. I enjoy reading your writing.
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Old 09-09-2007, 05:02 PM   #160
salim
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Re: Aiki-Boxing

Quote:
Larry Camejo wrote: View Post
I think this is quite true. The problem is that there is no single common training method within "Aikido" not even within the Aikikai which represents the root heritage of Aikido. William indicated as much when he said-
LC
Aikikai does not represent the root heritage of Aikido. I don't want to get off the subject here, but that is far from the truth. Aikikai just happens to be the largest political organization representing Aikido today. Aikido's root heritage are more apparent within Aikibudo, pre WWII Aikido.
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Old 09-09-2007, 06:08 PM   #161
L. Camejo
 
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Re: Aiki-Boxing

Dan: Whatever floats your boat man. You believe what you like. Though from some of your assumptions and statements about Aikido's tactical approach I can see what William is referring to. Have fun, train hard, do whatever you like.

Quote:
Aikikai does not represent the root heritage of Aikido.
Salim, you too can believe whatever you want. I could care less. However, Ueshiba M. founded what most of us here refer to when we say Aikido (at one time this method was also called Ueshiba Ryu Aikijujutsu, Kobudo and Aikibudo). He also founded the Aikikai Foundation to organize and establish the dissemination of his teachings. His son and grandson have carried on the lineage of the Budo he started (Aikido) in the organization he started (Aikikai). Whether or not the technical and training content is what he taught originally during his Aikibudo days is for those whose training may be affected by such questions. This however is for another thread.

It's so interesting how many people believe that if they can't do something then it can't be done, or is not supposed to be. E.g. If I can't get Aikido to work against Boxing attacks then maybe it was never designed to deal with boxing attacks. But of course, why try and train hard to achieve something truly unique when I can easily find a way of making myself feel better for my own mediocrity by saying it can't be done.

If this were always the case humankind would never evolve. Aikido itself would not exist.

Bob and Jeff, I'll post again when I have video to assist or when you guys post something new again. Until then.

Gambatte.
LC

--Mushin Mugamae - No Mind No Posture. He who is possessed by nothing possesses everything.--
http://www.tntaikido.org
http://www.mushinkan.ca
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Old 09-09-2007, 06:39 PM   #162
Aikibu
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Re: Aiki-Boxing

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Salim Shaw wrote: View Post
Wow, it's about time someone made sense around here. I could not have said it better. Dan, I really appreciate your integrity of real life self defense. It definitely has inspired me to want to learn more about boxing and wrestling. I enjoy reading your writing.
There's another loaded phrase "Real Life Self Defense" And Ooooooh I don't know... Since I have a Special Operations Background in my past I take that to mean Calling in Air Support... High Explosives...and the Prodigeous Use of Automatic Weapons.IOW Doing whatever is nessecary to protect yourself. If Fedyor Emelyanenko came after me with the intent to hurt or kill me. I'd just shoot him and proclaim it an act of "Self Defense"

In Martial Terms I think Sean Connery put it best in one of my favorite Movies The Untouchables

"You wanna know how to get Capone? They pull a knife, you pull a gun. He sends one of yours to the hospital, you send one of his to the morgue. *That's* the *Chicago* way! And that's how you get Capone. Now do you want to do that? Are you ready to do that? I'm offering you a deal. Do you want this deal?"

Reality cannot be found in any dojo anywhere in that sense.

Lots of folks like to talk about "Real Life Self Defense" not realizing what a can of worms they're opening...

I use Aikido everyday in "Real Life Self Defense" and have not hit anybody or made someone bleed in over 5 years...

Anyone care to take a shot at that Koan?

I am all for someone wanting to be the best they can be and for the overall improvement of every Martial Art.

Personally I feel Modern Martial Arts have to offer more that a series of tools for "Self Defense" There is much much more to it than that for me...

With All Due Respect Salim and fellow posters

William Hazen

Last edited by Aikibu : 09-09-2007 at 06:43 PM.
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Old 09-09-2007, 06:51 PM   #163
Aikibu
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Re: Aiki-Boxing

Quote:
Dan Austin wrote: View Post
Larry,

I don't have a problem with that, it's difficult to speak concisely and not have people take away different meanings anyway. If someone asks the question, "Is Aikido effective?" they generally are asking whether they will develop a good level of self-defense proficiency for their time invested. Often the most honest answer to this is "probably not", but using the word "ineffective" does not mean "can't ever be used". Anything *can* be used, the question is how reliably for how many practitioners.

That said, of course Aikido is not some monolithic practice. In general however, many if not most Asian martial arts are closely tied to their weapons origins, or for other historical reasons contain a syllabus of techniques that do not correlate well to modern empty hand fighting. Things like rising blocks and reverse punches may be applicable if you're holding or thrusting certain types of weapon, but they are not suitable for dealing with boxing punches that are retracted as quickly as they are thrown. It seems many Aikidoka talk about an "attacker" as someone who literally attacks without regard for minimizing counter attacks. In fact, street attackers either cheat as much as possible to ensure their success, or tend to choose victims they think they can take. Nobody is going to throw a punch that hangs out in space, or simply allow themselves to be countered without fully resisting every effort to control them. In other words dealing with fully resistive boxing and wrestling attacks is the norm, not some rare thing to be discussed once in a blue moon. The obvious arts to deal with those attacks are boxing and wrestling, yet for some reason many people avoid the syllabus that evolved with these attacks in favor of "exotic" Asian approaches to solving a different problem.

So there are two obvious elements, cooperative vs competitive training methods, and the realism of both the attacks and counters. Training Aikido in a more competitive way can be good, but the choice of technique is still paramount. Techniques like kotegaishi have very limited scope and applicability even if trained in a more aggressive manner. If we're wrestling over a jo, great, but for what else?

There are things that can be taken from many Asian martial arts, but if one is honest about the applicability toward common attacks and the need to train them in a competitive way, it's going to look more and more like Western combat than anything classically Asian. People should do what they enjoy, and there are many reasons to enjoy something like Aikido, but what is really the point of even trying to make something derived from Japanese sword work into a Western combat art?
Better...and I second what Larry said as well. Perhaps as you grow in experiance you will work out your misconceptions about "Asian" Martial Arts...

By the way the best Western Combat Art I know that's availible to a civilian is Combat Pistol Shooting.Learning to shoot effectively under duress is sure to resolve almost any "Realistic Street Encounter" you're likely to experiance.

William Hazen

Last edited by Aikibu : 09-09-2007 at 06:53 PM.
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Old 09-09-2007, 06:55 PM   #164
Aikibu
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Re: Aiki-Boxing

Quote:
Larry Camejo wrote: View Post

It's so interesting how many people believe that if they can't do something then it can't be done, or is not supposed to be. E.g. If I can't get Aikido to work against Boxing attacks then maybe it was never designed to deal with boxing attacks. But of course, why try and train hard to achieve something truly unique when I can easily find a way of making myself feel better for my own mediocrity by saying it can't be done.

If this were always the case humankind would never evolve. Aikido itself would not exist.

LC
Perfect.

William Hazen
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Old 09-09-2007, 06:57 PM   #165
Bob King
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Re: Aiki-Boxing

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William Hazen wrote: View Post
Thank you Larry...The feeling is mutual. I always enjoy the Shodokan perspective you and Peter R.

William Hazen

P.S. Do you know any Shodokan Aikido Yudansha out here in L.A. that you would reccomend?
Hi Wiliam,

There is a Shodokan club at USC. The sensei is Mark Colopy,

markcolopy@cox.net

That is his email address.

Bob King
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Old 09-09-2007, 07:33 PM   #166
Bob King
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Re: Aiki-Boxing

[quote=Larry Camejo;189199]

It's so interesting how many people believe that if they can't do something then it can't be done, or is not supposed to be. E.g. If I can't get Aikido to work against Boxing attacks then maybe it was never designed to deal with boxing attacks. But of course, why try and train hard to achieve something truly unique when I can easily find a way of making myself feel better for my own mediocrity by saying it can't be done.

If this were always the case humankind would never evolve. Aikido itself would not exist.

Bob and Jeff, I'll post again when I have video to assist or when you guys post something new again. Until then.

Thanks, Larry, an excellent summation of the reason Jeff and I started to do this. Our intent was not to provide a forum for petty disagreement on the effectiveness of one combat system over another which is ultimately an inane discussion as it isn't the effectiveness of the system in the fight but the effectiveness of the fighter in the fight that decides what "works" or does not. We were/are trying to provide a forum for discussion of other ways to practice the art of Aikido in it's many variations and in a variety of resistive environments or applications, randori. Whether what I practice ends up looking like aikibudo or MMA, or pankration or Goobercrap-Do is irrelevant to me. If it helps my total understanding of Tomiki/Shodokan aikido (the system I choose to practice most) and of the martial arts in general is what is relevant to me.

Look forward to seeing some videos from you Larry and to some day meet you or other folks here in person and work with you to develop our arts.

Peace, love and granola bars to all!

Bob King
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Old 09-09-2007, 09:01 PM   #167
Dan Austin
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Re: Aiki-Boxing

Quote:
Larry Camejo wrote: View Post
It's so interesting how many people believe that if they can't do something then it can't be done, or is not supposed to be. E.g. If I can't get Aikido to work against Boxing attacks then maybe it was never designed to deal with boxing attacks. But of course, why try and train hard to achieve something truly unique when I can easily find a way of making myself feel better for my own mediocrity by saying it can't be done.
It is a fact that Aikido was not designed for boxing, unless I've missed where Ueshiba was discussing techniques for the 1-2. Now, whether anybody can get the principles to work reliably in that context is another issue.

It's so interesting how many people dismissively imply that something very difficult to do is something they could do rather easily (since they're not mediocre-by-definition like the rest of us who think it's pretty hard) - so I'm sure everybody is looking forward to those videos.
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Old 09-09-2007, 09:25 PM   #168
salim
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Re: Aiki-Boxing

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Larry Camejo wrote: View Post
Dan: Whatever floats your boat man. You believe what you like. Though from some of your assumptions and statements about Aikido's tactical approach I can see what William is referring to. Have fun, train hard, do whatever you like.

Salim, you too can believe whatever you want. I could care less. However, Ueshiba M. founded what most of us here refer to when we say Aikido (at one time this method was also called Ueshiba Ryu Aikijujutsu, Kobudo and Aikibudo). He also founded the Aikikai Foundation to organize and establish the dissemination of his teachings. His son and grandson have carried on the lineage of the Budo he started (Aikido) in the organization he started (Aikikai). Whether or not the technical and training content is what he taught originally during his Aikibudo days is for those whose training may be affected by such questions. This however is for another thread.

It's so interesting how many people believe that if they can't do something then it can't be done, or is not supposed to be. E.g. If I can't get Aikido to work against Boxing attacks then maybe it was never designed to deal with boxing attacks. But of course, why try and train hard to achieve something truly unique when I can easily find a way of making myself feel better for my own mediocrity by saying it can't be done.

If this were always the case humankind would never evolve. Aikido itself would not exist.

Bob and Jeff, I'll post again when I have video to assist or when you guys post something new again. Until then.

Gambatte.
LC
There is a bit of obscurity with the naming of Aikido and perhaps Aikikai.

"I was reading in "Conversations with Aikjujutsu Masters" that some leading aikido people understood "aikido" to refer to daito ryu aikijujutsu and that some daito ryu people called their art aikido. And it is true that Minoru Hirai, creator of korindo aikido, was the one who actually created the name and registered it with the butokuden. It was actually intended to be a fairly broad category, including his approach, Ueshiba's and that of daito ryu, as well as any other art using aiki."
It think that's reflective of the "brand-namization" of aikido after O-Sensei's death. What was a fairly inclusive term became more and more strictly applicable to the aikikai, and even more so when Tohei left. Stanley Pranin has done us a great service to show that the roots are still connected and we do well to understand how broad aikido really is. The people who left when Auge was getting established were those who would have liked to push that old yoseikan aikido much further toward the aikikai brand. Of course, one fellow was rather older and Auge's influence was making the art more demanding. Eventually, I think, Auge did succeed in developing the all-round, smooth art that Mochizuki Sensei was aiming for, combining aikido, judo, karate and sword in a seamless blend of smooth and "very soft" aikido. That is to say that it's hard to feel his technique because it is so soft and smooth, similar to that of Murai Sensei."

"The truth is back when Kancho was learning from him, it was budo, it had lots of names, but the important under pinning idea was budo. Then yes, this umbrella term Aikido was suggested by Hirai. This is why so many people think that his art, Korindo Aikido, is a style of Aikido, but it is a separate Aikido art."
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Old 09-09-2007, 10:03 PM   #169
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Re: Aiki-Boxing

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Things like rising blocks and reverse punches may be applicable if you're holding or thrusting certain types of weapon, but they are not suitable for dealing with boxing punches that are retracted as quickly as they are thrown.
<snip>
The obvious arts to deal with those attacks are boxing and wrestling, yet for some reason many people avoid the syllabus that evolved with these attacks in favor of "exotic" Asian approaches to solving a different problem.
おもいっきりdisagree

I totally, utterly disagree with that statement, as I'm sure a couple other on here reading this thread, a couple of which fight mma.

Long weapons work (such as spear) in particular gives you access to methods of movement and power generation that your orthodox boxing/kickboxing simply can't give you. And from first hand experience I've seen it give problems in spades to mma fighters not used to dealing with someone that's accquired these skills. (Doesn't mean your invincible, but it can even the odds, especially when your opponent has 4-5 years more experience than you)
My own instructor can move his entire body on the verticle plane, just about as fast as a good boxer can jab. (Course it helps that he used to work out with pro boxers here in Japan)

I've got a CMA friend who literally uses the same body method from his spear work in his standup and groundgame, which allowed him to win the all european submission grappling tourney

That being said, I hate to say it but the Aiki-boxing demo was utter crap. Its great that the guys are trying to use the principles they've learned within a boxing context, but it's pretty obvious they're bodies aren't connected and that they're they're mixing up two completely different paradigms of movement. Mostly they're copying the shape of the movement, but that's about it.

Anyways so why don't we see more people using the "other" kind of movement? My own personal opinoin is that its because
a) there's few people that can actually teach it, much less teach it to a degree that conditions the body sufficiently,
b) even if you do run into someone that can teach it, the actual training is so "$#%"ing arduous most people drop out within the first 6 months or so. (its a different kind of skill required by the body, so being able to do 100 situps, pushups, squats etc gives you nothing that you can carry over)

M2C
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Old 09-09-2007, 10:33 PM   #170
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Re: Aiki-Boxing

Rob,
I don't know what you're talking about.

I've seen your youtube video's. If that is an example of "other" kinds of movement, I think you should apologize to the Aiki-boxing fellows.

I have seen nothing from you or your teachers videos that would lead me to believe you know at all what you are talking about.

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Old 09-09-2007, 11:16 PM   #171
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Re: Aiki-Boxing

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Robert John wrote: View Post
おもいっきりdisagree

I totally, utterly disagree with that statement, as I'm sure a couple other on here reading this thread, a couple of which fight mma.

Long weapons work (such as spear) in particular gives you access to methods of movement and power generation that your orthodox boxing/kickboxing simply can't give you. And from first hand experience I've seen it give problems in spades to mma fighters not used to dealing with someone that's accquired these skills.
Hi Rob,

I've read your stuff with interest, but don't mistake what I'm getting at . There are useful things in the Asian arts. If I read you correctly you're not talking about a style per se, you're talking about applying body movement trainings to any style. The fact remains that the most efficient way to learn to deal with boxing and wrestling is learning boxing and wrestling. What you can add to it with your body trainings I don't know, but you still have to apply it in the technical context. In other words, your body trainings aren't suddenly going to make a shotokan block a good way to deal with a 1-2 compared to slipping it, if you follow my drift. And they must be hard to learn since they're obscure if nothing else, whereas finding an MMA gym, boxing coach, or wrestling coach is easy. So I'm curious to see if you can take the world by storm with this stuff, but even in the best scenario I suspect it would be an adjunct to MMA and not a substitute. But I'm always willing to be wrong.
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Old 09-10-2007, 12:30 AM   #172
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Re: Aiki-Boxing

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Dan Austin wrote: View Post
It is a fact that Aikido was not designed for boxing, unless I've missed where Ueshiba was discussing techniques for the 1-2. Now, whether anybody can get the principles to work reliably in that context is another issue.
Dan I humbly suggest you check your facts and do further research on the subject.

William Hazen
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Old 09-10-2007, 03:35 AM   #173
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Re: Aiki-Boxing

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pNjvFuqpWNE
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Old 09-10-2007, 07:11 AM   #174
philippe willaume
 
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Re: Aiki-Boxing

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LOL. This is *exactly* what I was getting at, and the idea that this clip supports Aikido is incredibly funny. Anyone who wants to claim this on behalf of Aikido has been swilling the KoolAid far too long. Logic along the lines of "this is aiki, Aikido is about aiki, and I do Aikido...therefore I can do this!" is just delusional. This is boxing, not Aikido. Aikido training is about as far removed from boxing as possible. Training ikkyos and whatnot against meaningless attacks in no way prepares you to do this, training in boxing gives you this skill, hence my prior recommendation to train with a boxing coach. If you get grappled, wrestling will effectively teach you to counter any attempts to grapple you. If you do wind up on the ground, submissions training will allow you to defend yourself and get back on your feet. In other words MMA is the body of modern effective fighting technique and training methods that develops real skill, the only thing Aikido brings to the table is the defensive mindset - which doesn't require any ongoing training in an Aikido school to do.

Ueshiba's revelation was not to resist, contend, and outcompete, but to take the openings presented by being attacked. He who attacks opens himself to be countered in doing so, and should be shown the error of breaking harmony with the universe as it were. In theory. This is also a sound legal basis for self-defense, and is commendable. However the important thing to note is that Ueshiba traveled Japan and became an accomplished martial artist prior to reaching a more mature and meaningful understanding of martial art. Emulating him today would entail doing the same, which means embracing MMA as the gold standard syllabus of realistic unarmed technique and training method. The standard Aikido syllabus today is practically worthless in addressing modern hand to hand fighting. The title of this thread is apt - aiki-boxing is what Aikido should be, but isn't. You can't have an art whose execution depends 90% on atemi, spend 0% of your time training realistic atemi, and expect a good result. Unless you spend 90% of your training time boxing, the 90% atemi just isn't going to happen for you.
Hello Dan
I do agree with what I understand you mean in your mail.

But does it really matter, if we call it boxing, karate, wing chung, jet kun do, or 18th century boxing or that it represent proper use of atemi in aikido?

What matters is that, you actually punch with power, precision and balance and you can use those strikes to close in, take down your opponent and pin him or break him or throw him.
For some people this is the aikido they practice. It is true as well that usually they have striking arts in their back ground or they practice as the same time they do aikido.
So it would be hard for me to disagree with tack on training atemi…

However I think it is very abusive to say that MMA is close to gold standard for self defence.
I have been on the record saying that I though it is a very good way to train and has a very good conceptualisation of a fight (i.e. that is very relevant to an actual self defence encounter).

However the predicates MMA is based upon: making the encounter as fair as possible, is the exact opposite of self defence.

It is as far remote to reality as relaying on "defend and counter attack because each time someone attack he leaves himself open to counter attack" because again that is only the case in a "fair" fight.

This shows even in the average challenge between MMA and your average master ninja from hell. The master ninja always want to fight on a parking lot or on concrete, so that it takes away the take-down where both fall and makes ground work more painful on the knee.
Unfortunately for them, the same master ninjas from hell do not seem to be aware that elbow and knee protections for roller/blade/board skating or volley ball do exist, not to mention that standard elbow and knee protections will take at least on session on concrete and since they are not a massive financial burden.
Nonetheless and however pathetic, it is an attempt to stack the deck in their favour.

And that is exactly why, most of self defence case are either ambush or have the attacker start from a closed distance.
The point is that usually the attacker(s) stack up the deck on their favour before the attack.. Hence Mister Thompson fence and pre-emptive strike, (In England pre-emptive strike can and have been justified in self defence case).

The other potential problem, is that mounting someone and pounding him or choking him start do drift in very dodgy legal ground on the usage of reasonable force and self defence/assault/ABH/GBH and whether or not duty to retreat/castle laws can be called upon or not.

Even in England where you do not have duty to retreat, the prosecution will probably point out that you sat on the guy chest and pounded him instead of taking advantage of the situation to retire and call for help as any reasonable man would do in the circumstances
Not to mention that you give his potential buddies (or third party for that matter) a perfect self defences case as they could claim that they were fearing for their friends life and give them cause to use a huge degree of force.
The fact that the guy you sat on is the original aggressor and you had valid cause will amount to nothing as it is very easy for them to propose that actually believed that their friend was in an imminent and unavoidable threat.

Phil

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In the Land of Windsor where phlip phlop live.
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Old 09-10-2007, 06:48 PM   #175
Upyu
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Re: Aiki-Boxing

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Chris Hein wrote: View Post
Rob,
I don't know what you're talking about.

I've seen your youtube video's. If that is an example of "other" kinds of movement, I think you should apologize to the Aiki-boxing fellows.

I have seen nothing from you or your teachers videos that would lead me to believe you know at all what you are talking about.
Uh, no dude, it's not in those youtube videos.

I could say likewise, that I've seen nothing in your videos that shows that you know what you're talking about as well
Besides, anyone that's met myself or Ark in person hasn't had a negative comment yet. If Ark was so full of BS when it comes to this stuff you think someone that'd met him would have piped up by now
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