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Old 09-05-2007, 08:50 AM   #101
Paul Sanderson-Cimino
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Re: Aiki-Boxing

If nothing else, it at least provides some ideas for what techniques might be applicable to this situation.

I'm still pretty skeptical of the whole enterprise, for other reasons. But this does suggest it could be doable.
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Old 09-05-2007, 08:51 AM   #102
Amir Krause
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Re: Aiki-Boxing

I started looking for the first minute or so, and stopped, there was nothing new. I can only repeat my previous comments:

You keep trying the same wrong thing - look at the video, you can see his timing, yet you are late. When he attacks, you retreat.

Throughput the time I watched, you did some techniques but not Aikido.

Amir
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Old 09-05-2007, 09:01 AM   #103
Paul Sanderson-Cimino
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Re: Aiki-Boxing

Quote:
Amir Krause wrote: View Post
Throughput the time I watched, you did some techniques but not Aikido.
I wouldn't say it quite that strongly -- more like "they found a very narrow range of aikido techniques to be potentially usable in this situation."
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Old 09-05-2007, 09:26 AM   #104
Michael Douglas
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Re: Aiki-Boxing

Quote:
Michael Douglas wrote: View Post
...The elbow-cover, charge blindly forward, left wrap combination seem to me firstly to be applicable mainly against a known sequence of gentle attacks, and secondly ... not aikido..
Correction!
Arm-wrap to lock aikido alert!
03.42 in http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l6Y3WZuUtVo

But you gotta do some spear-hand death-jab at the end...
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Old 09-05-2007, 11:05 AM   #105
philippe willaume
 
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Re: Aiki-Boxing

Quote:
Jeff Davidson wrote: View Post
Hey Michael,

The first two rounds were done with a jab - jab- hook combo, but the last two were done "freestyle". Neither of us were aware what the other was going to do there.

Thanks for all of the great input everyone!

Jeff D.
Hello, jeff
I think it is a good effort.

With all the caveats due to seeing it in video, my limited experience, all the insight of not being there doing itbut just watching it, and the following being jut an opinion.

From the video you seems to be successful when you are doing a "proper" irimi as you are using you V elbow protection and when you target the elbow .
For me you are already doing the hardest part in that.

The most common cause of failure is that you (as in both of you) try to go for an arm look without any form of isolation of the arm sometime it is made worse by going for the hand first

I think you should try to couple your initial protection (or replace it with and elbow push pin) and a strike to the head/neck (as in a proper strike).
And strike him as if you wanted to follow through with the elbow.

Basically as if you wanted to do the tachi dori when you go ura side put your back hand on the wrist, elbow him and snake you arm around his neck. And then go down stretching is arm and his neck and pressing on hids elbow over you outward knee.

I think it is important to move his head back, because it isolate the arm. And he may give you his arm as he parries your blow. That is a reason why lots of arm bar (trappings the forearm and lifting the elbow) done by the guy in green did not work as well as the worked for you
You created the isolation by the armbar before taking him down

I find it that initially going for irimi nagie/tenchi (and variation of there off) as a follow up of the punch is a good way to keep the pressure and prepare the isolation (arm or head)

Phil

One Ringeck to bring them all and in darkness bind them,
In the Land of Windsor where phlip phlop live.
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Old 09-05-2007, 11:14 AM   #106
philippe willaume
 
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Re: Aiki-Boxing

Quote:
Amir Krause wrote: View Post
I started looking for the first minute or so, and stopped, there was nothing new. I can only repeat my previous comments:

You keep trying the same wrong thing - look at the video, you can see his timing, yet you are late. When he attacks, you retreat.

Throughput the time I watched, you did some techniques but not Aikido.

Amir
Hum
that was as insightful as I quickly read the two first word of your message and saw no new words so I assume the rest was rubbish. Or this book is crap, not that I read it but I read the Sunday sport revue.

It is only 8 minutes for the love of God and all available women.
At least have the decency to what it until the end, before telling the man is timing is shiet, it is just common courtesy and you may find that there are a few caveats to that crap timing theory.

phil

One Ringeck to bring them all and in darkness bind them,
In the Land of Windsor where phlip phlop live.
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Old 09-05-2007, 08:08 PM   #107
Dan Austin
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Re: Aiki-Boxing

Quote:
Jeff Davidson wrote: View Post
Dan...

Hard boulders through a straw!?!? Ouch! I appreciate your suggestions.
Jeff,

Just messing with you, I wanted to work that line in. Seriously I think you guys are taking an honest look at things and should be commended for that openness. Despite any suggestions from people who think it should be more Aikido-like, the fact is that Aikido did not evolve in the presence of boxing. It's also true that you can't really simulate what "Aikido is 90% atemi" means in practice, because it means you need to stun or otherwise get a strong reaction from uke to have anything else work reliably.

In terms of a simulation what that then boils down to is nage needs to be able to counterpunch uke off of realistic punches. Make him miss until he commits more strongly, or time him or find a pattern and stop-hit him as he begins his shot. In other words wait for him to hand you an opening instead of trying to force something, and when you get that opening you just hit him. To do that requires training boxing, and then using it from an Aikido strategic mindset. What would be most instructive would be for one of you (nage if you're always consistent) to train with a boxing coach for six months. Then you can better simulate the requirements of handling a competent puncher. It still won't look like Aikido, but then if you have great aiki and atemi, you probably won't need the other 10% that looks like Aikido.
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Old 09-06-2007, 06:13 AM   #108
skinnymonkey
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Re: Aiki-Boxing

Dan,

Thanks for the great advice. We'll definitely keep that in mind as we progress with this experiment.

Jeff D.
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Old 09-06-2007, 09:51 AM   #109
ChrisHein
 
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Re: Aiki-Boxing

HAHAHHAHAHAH, I love all the advice from people who are not willing to do the practice themselves.

"Uhm, Jeff, you know if you'd just do it this way"; why not just post a video of you doing it your way, and we can all learn.

From personal experience, the stuff these guys are trying is hard. If they ever get it to work right, it will likely take years. I also doubt that intellectualism is going to help much here. Experience, yes, untried theories, likely no. If you’ve got a great theory try it, I’m sure we’d all love to see what you’ve come up with.

The videos are changing. You guys are getting better, however it is also starting to look more and more like other conventional systems of unarmed martial arts. Akin to what Jason Deluca is up to.

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Old 09-06-2007, 12:21 PM   #110
skinnymonkey
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Re: Aiki-Boxing

Hey Chris,

It is feeling better, but you are right about it starting to look a little different than traditional aikido when done in this way. However, there is an interesting video on youtube

http://youtube.com/watch?v=z1mC6XDXL5Y

Looks like it's from the 40s or something, but if you fast forward to about the 6:30 mark, you will see an interesting bout between Tohei and some big American. What is interesting to me is that the bout is very sloppy and tends to lock up a lot. In those kinds of situations, I don't think there is any way to avoid that.

I don't mind the philosophical suggestions. I have been trying to keep many of those things in mind during practice, but it can be tough in the heat of the moment... which is why we practice!

I wouldn't mind seeing some other vids of attempts at this kind of thing tho.

Thanks,

Jeff D.

Last edited by skinnymonkey : 09-06-2007 at 12:22 PM. Reason: Too quick with the submit button
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Old 09-06-2007, 03:04 PM   #111
salim
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Re: Aiki-Boxing

Quote:
Chris Hein wrote: View Post
HAHAHHAHAHAH, I love all the advice from people who are not willing to do the practice themselves.

"Uhm, Jeff, you know if you'd just do it this way"; why not just post a video of you doing it your way, and we can all learn.

From personal experience, the stuff these guys are trying is hard. If they ever get it to work right, it will likely take years. I also doubt that intellectualism is going to help much here. Experience, yes, untried theories, likely no. If you've got a great theory try it, I'm sure we'd all love to see what you've come up with.

The videos are changing. You guys are getting better, however it is also starting to look more and more like other conventional systems of unarmed martial arts. Akin to what Jason Deluca is up to.
The realities of an untrained uke is more realistic. A person who is a street fighter, which is more common place than not, will result to the Aikidoist using unconventional tactics to apply Aikido moves.

I would think with all the common knowledge that has been shared from Mixed Martial Arts, that the traditionalist mindset would not be such that it would cause a person not to observe self defense tactics clearly.
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Old 09-06-2007, 04:05 PM   #112
Roman Kremianski
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Re: Aiki-Boxing

Quote:
The realities of an untrained uke is more realistic.
Practicing with a trained uke will make you better against an untrained opponent. Train with someone throwing tight crosses and hooks, and all the sudden that wild haymaker of the untrained uke will appear more telegraphic and easier to avoid.
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Old 09-06-2007, 05:38 PM   #113
ChrisHein
 
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Re: Aiki-Boxing

Quote:
Jeff Davidson wrote: View Post
Hey Chris,

It is feeling better, but you are right about it starting to look a little different than traditional aikido when done in this way. However, there is an interesting video on youtube

http://youtube.com/watch?v=z1mC6XDXL5Y

Looks like it's from the 40s or something, but if you fast forward to about the 6:30 mark, you will see an interesting bout between Tohei and some big American. What is interesting to me is that the bout is very sloppy and tends to lock up a lot. In those kinds of situations, I don't think there is any way to avoid that.

I don't mind the philosophical suggestions. I have been trying to keep many of those things in mind during practice, but it can be tough in the heat of the moment... which is why we practice!

I wouldn't mind seeing some other vids of attempts at this kind of thing tho.

Thanks,

Jeff D.
I remember seeing that video early on in my Aikido career, and being pretty excited about it.

You are right about the "lock ups", and that is just an expectable part of unarmed martial arts.

The exciting question to me is, why doesn't Aikido train us to deal with these kinds of unarmed "lock ups" if they are so common?

Perhaps because Aikido was never meant to be used as an unarmed martial art...

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Old 09-06-2007, 08:53 PM   #114
Dan Austin
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Re: Aiki-Boxing

Quote:
Jeff Davidson wrote: View Post
Looks like it's from the 40s or something, but if you fast forward to about the 6:30 mark, you will see an interesting bout between Tohei and some big American. What is interesting to me is that the bout is very sloppy and tends to lock up a lot. In those kinds of situations, I don't think there is any way to avoid that.
Yikes. And Tohei is one of the bigwigs in Aikido. Well, that tears it completely, Aikido simply has no training or technique to address modern fighting. The American clearly had nothing, yet they even toppled to the mat at one point. With any kind of wrestling it would have been a rout. The only thing I think can be taken from Aikido is the defensive countering mindset, which also has a solid legal basis for self-defense. The techniques themselves are inadequate even for street hacks unless they're so drunk they can't see straight. Against anyone with the slightest boxing, wrestling, or streetfighting experience (in other words 100% of meaningful opponents) they're simply useless and a waste of time to train.
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Old 09-06-2007, 10:59 PM   #115
Roman Kremianski
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Re: Aiki-Boxing

Quote:
Perhaps because Aikido was never meant to be used as an unarmed martial art...
Isn't that what O-Sensei kept saying on a regular basis?
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Old 09-07-2007, 12:16 AM   #116
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Re: Aiki-Boxing

Quote:
Roman Kremianski wrote: View Post
Isn't that what O-Sensei kept saying on a regular basis?
That could be taken one of two ways.

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Old 09-07-2007, 03:10 AM   #117
philippe willaume
 
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Re: Aiki-Boxing

Quote:
Chris Hein wrote: View Post
I remember seeing that video early on in my Aikido career, and being pretty excited about it.
You are right about the "lock ups", and that is just an expectable part of unarmed martial arts.
The exciting question to me is, why doesn't Aikido train us to deal with these kinds of unarmed "lock ups" if they are so common?
does it not?
you have form where the guy do grab you at both wrist, and both shoulder. from the front. grabing both elbow or one elbow and stiking is a variation of what we call 3rd form.
and you work from static, dynamic, and ki no nogare.

i understan that our systen may be a bit more formalised that other places, but our basic 16 form of "attack" have to come from somewhere.

Quote:
Chris Hein wrote: View Post
Perhaps because Aikido was never meant to be used as an unarmed martial art...
I am not sure that it not meant to be an unramed martial art, I would say that it is geared toward an environment where weapon are readilly
and i bears similitude to medieval ringen (wrestling, grapling whatever you want to call it) where weapons avaliability and possible friend intervention where a given.

phil

One Ringeck to bring them all and in darkness bind them,
In the Land of Windsor where phlip phlop live.
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Old 09-07-2007, 03:33 AM   #118
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Re: Aiki-Boxing

Quote:
Roman Kremianski wrote: View Post
Practicing with a trained uke will make you better against an untrained opponent. Train with someone throwing tight crosses and hooks, and all the sudden that wild haymaker of the untrained uke will appear more telegraphic and easier to avoid.
Amen to that

One Ringeck to bring them all and in darkness bind them,
In the Land of Windsor where phlip phlop live.
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Old 09-07-2007, 07:43 AM   #119
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Re: Aiki-Boxing

Quote:
Xu Wenfung wrote: View Post
OP's example is so-so. 5/10.

Here is an example of a good Aiki-Boxing or whatyourmacallit
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FhNKMqlSzcI&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Ebullshido%2Enet%2Fforums%2Fshowthrea d%2Ephp%3Ft%3D54004

Look at 1' 44" for a whoop-ass good kokyu-shomen-ate combo.

Boon.
to bad...post by Ledyard Sensei got me interested in this link, but it was taken down by youtube it seems. - Im quite interested in the concept of aiki-boxing.

Peace
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Old 09-07-2007, 07:45 AM   #120
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Re: Aiki-Boxing

Terms of use violation - wonder what that was about?

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 09-07-2007, 08:09 AM   #121
skinnymonkey
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Re: Aiki-Boxing

This is the vid that Ledyard sensei was referring to.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=V4DJQjYX_as

We talked to him about this idea of "entering" even when backing up in our podcast. This was one of the examples he was talking about. Very interesting stuff.

http://www.usaikido.com

Jeff D.
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Old 09-07-2007, 08:14 AM   #122
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Re: Aiki-Boxing

Now I understand why it was removed - I thought the aiki-boxing clips were taken down.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 09-07-2007, 08:15 AM   #123
salim
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Re: Aiki-Boxing

Quote:
Jeff Davidson wrote: View Post
This is the vid that Ledyard sensei was referring to.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=V4DJQjYX_as

We talked to him about this idea of "entering" even when backing up in our podcast. This was one of the examples he was talking about. Very interesting stuff.

http://www.usaikido.com

Jeff D.
Great clip of Aiki methods. Reality is something.
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Old 09-07-2007, 09:29 AM   #124
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Re: Aiki-Boxing

That is a great clip. However that isn't the way we train Aikido either.

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Old 09-07-2007, 09:49 AM   #125
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Aiki-Boxing

sweet.

B,
R

Ron Tisdale
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