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Old 04-05-2007, 12:11 PM   #1
dps
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Aikido: The Way of Avoidance

Aikido is:

Avoidance; Being aware of your surroundings, where you are at, who you are with, what you are doing, to avoid conflict. If you are attacked stepping out of the way of the attack to avoid conflict.

Blending/Harmonizing; Matching your opponent's direction and momentum.

Control; Guiding your opponent and their attack to a conclusion that you want that is primarily not harmful to you.

So why isn't Aikido referred to as 'The Way of Avoidance' or 'The Way of Control'?
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Old 04-05-2007, 12:29 PM   #2
Don_Modesto
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Re: Aikido: The Way of Avoidance

Why is the REAR deck called the POOP deck?

(Get used to it--sh*t happens...)

Don J. Modesto
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Old 04-05-2007, 12:29 PM   #3
ChrisMoses
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Re: Aikido: The Way of Avoidance

Quote:
David Skaggs wrote: View Post
So why isn't Aikido referred to as 'The Way of Avoidance' or 'The Way of Control'?
How would you say that Aikido is able to defeat an attacker at the moment of contact by avoiding them? My first Aikido teacher used to day, the #1 rule was to get out of the way. I now disagree, I now think the #1 rule is enter/irimi.

Chris Moses
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Old 04-05-2007, 12:31 PM   #4
Janet Rosen
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Re: Aikido: The Way of Avoidance

I don't consider it avoidence. I consider it chosing to change the terms of the engagement.

Janet Rosen
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Old 04-05-2007, 12:38 PM   #5
dbotari
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Re: Aikido: The Way of Avoidance

"A rose, by any other name should smell as sweet....."

What's in a name?

FWIW

Dan
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Old 04-05-2007, 12:46 PM   #6
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Aikido: The Way of Avoidance

avoidance??? ick Evasion I'm ok with.

Blending?? My instructor used to ask "what is this blending??" he does not translate awase as blending...more like matching.

But hey, to each his own...

Best,
Ron

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Old 04-05-2007, 01:08 PM   #7
dps
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Re: Aikido: The Way of Avoidance

Quote:
Christian Moses wrote: View Post
How would you say that Aikido is able to defeat an attacker at the moment of contact by avoiding them? My first Aikido teacher used to day, the #1 rule was to get out of the way. I now disagree, I now think the #1 rule is enter/irimi.
Do you do the entering movement while still in the line of attack?

David
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Old 04-05-2007, 01:11 PM   #8
dps
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Re: Aikido: The Way of Avoidance

Quote:
Don J. Modesto wrote: View Post
Why is the REAR deck called the POOP deck?

(Get used to it--sh*t happens...)
Because inadequate bathroom facilities on sailing ships makes it more sanitary to do the necessary of the back of the rear deck.

David
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Old 04-05-2007, 01:21 PM   #9
dps
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Re: Aikido: The Way of Avoidance

Quote:
Dan Botari wrote: View Post
"A rose, by any other name should smell as sweet....."

What's in a name?

FWIW

Dan
How you perceive what you are doing.

David
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Old 04-05-2007, 01:22 PM   #10
dps
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Re: Aikido: The Way of Avoidance

Quote:
Janet Rosen wrote: View Post
I don't consider it avoidence. I consider it chosing to change the terms of the engagement.
I like that. Thank you.

David
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Old 04-05-2007, 01:26 PM   #11
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Re: Aikido: The Way of Avoidance

Quote:
David Skaggs wrote: View Post
Aikido is:

Avoidance; Being aware of your surroundings, where you are at, who you are with, what you are doing, to avoid conflict. If you are attacked stepping out of the way of the attack to avoid conflict.
Not avoiding -- engaging the attack directly. Irimi, irimi, irimi -- and when in doubt, generally irimi some more. Irimi going forward or irimi going backward; irirmi turning away or irimi into the opponent, but irimi.

Quote:
David Skaggs wrote: View Post
Blending/Harmonizing; Matching your opponent's direction and momentum.
Maybe not. Most of my manipulation of momentum is quite antithetical to the opponent's momentum -- But my input is 90 degrees out of phase on one or more planes, and so there is never any conflict or that "R" word (shhh! --- [""resistance""]).

Connect-enter-turn -- it only looks like avoidance, and it can be so darn small it ends up looking more like he is suddely avoiding you. You meet the attack from the side. Or the other side, or the topside or the bottom side or the back side.

O Sensei said (or rather, was translated): "When he attacks you striking or cutting with a sword, there is essentially one line or one point. All you need to do is avoid this." He didn't say "avoid the strike or cut," or "step out of the way of the attack." He said "avoid the one line or point." I most definitely want to be in the way of the attack, or else I cannot connect with it (musubi). If I "step out of the way" I actually conflict with or negate his attack, by removing his target. Anybody with a modicum of sword training will still slice you in the new position as easily or easier, in fact.

I do want to be in the way -- but in a different way. Avoiding the one line of approach to connecting with the attack (the line he wants to make the connection with), leaves 360 degrees of OTHER LINES of approach to enter that attack directly from any of those sides -- ALL of which are in a plane 90 degrees out of phase of that one line. Jujido -- 十字道 -- as it says in the Doka.

Quote:
David Skaggs wrote: View Post
Control; Guiding your opponent and their attack to a conclusion that you want that is primarily not harmful to you.
If I try to control, I am greviously tempted to conflict and negate the attack. I must never negate the attack or resist its force, becasue reistance to force is what that force is seeking.

Convert -- not control. Best to go right where he wants to go -- but with you attached and contributing (not conflicting), somehow it ends not getting there in quite the way he intended.

Conversion of evil action by meeting it with determined and forceful non-resistance -- not avoidance. Aikido is the antithesis of avoidance, to my mind. There is a spiritual point in there somewhere.

Quote:
David Skaggs wrote: View Post
So why isn't Aikido referred to as 'The Way of Avoidance' or 'The Way of Control'?
Because it really is neither.

Last edited by Erick Mead : 04-05-2007 at 01:31 PM.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
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Old 04-05-2007, 01:34 PM   #12
crbateman
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Re: Aikido: The Way of Avoidance

Avoidance is running away. Stepping off-line simply puts one in a position to better choose the place and manner in which the "interaction" occurs.
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Old 04-05-2007, 01:45 PM   #13
ChrisMoses
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Re: Aikido: The Way of Avoidance

Quote:
David Skaggs wrote: View Post
Do you do the entering movement while still in the line of attack?

David
Basically yes, but it will be hard to explain how in teh interwebs.

Chris Moses
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Old 04-05-2007, 01:50 PM   #14
Paul Sanderson-Cimino
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Re: Aikido: The Way of Avoidance

Answer to this thread:
http://www.aikidojournal.com/?id=638
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Old 04-05-2007, 03:10 PM   #15
Eric Webber
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Re: Aikido: The Way of Avoidance

When I put things in a blender (e.g. milk, ice cream, some vanilla extract, maybe a little dark chocolate...mmmm), they don't avoid each other or make room for each other. They exchange properties to make a greater whole (and a great milkshake!). When I "blend" with a partner, I mix whatever he/she brings to the interaction with what I bring to the interaction. There is no avoidance in blending.
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Old 04-05-2007, 03:57 PM   #16
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Re: Aikido: The Way of Avoidance

Aikido does seem geared toward asymmetrical conflict, for which avoidance is a vital skill. To avoid another's blows does not mean you are moving away from a position of effectiveness, it just means you aren't getting hit.
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Old 04-05-2007, 05:24 PM   #17
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Re: Aikido: The Way of Avoidance

Avoiding an attack will not stop the attack. Avoidance is open-ended. I think Aikido is a way to resolve an attack.
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Old 04-05-2007, 06:40 PM   #18
Rupert Atkinson
 
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Re: Aikido: The Way of Avoidance

Sorry, I don't see Aikido as avoidance. I would rather it be defined as Irimi. Just learn to go straight through your partner's attack. If you can do that, then you will have the choice to either, go through them, or to avoid. So, the result may be that you avoid, but it is based on the ability to go through your partner that gives you the alternative to avoid. If you define it as avoidance then all you are doing is running away. I had a similar discussion with a WingChunian a while ago. In Wing Chun they avoid by a miniscule amount and then attack directly and I was trying to explain the difference, i.e. not avoiding at all. Not easy to do, indeed it is very difficult, as it is a higher skill. The WC method too is quite superb. I see the trend in Aikido is to avoid 95% of the time, and by far too much.

Last edited by Rupert Atkinson : 04-05-2007 at 06:44 PM.

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Old 04-05-2007, 08:46 PM   #19
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Re: Aikido: The Way of Avoidance

IMHO, I am not avoiding or controling, but rather entering and blending.

Lynn Seiser PhD
Yondan Aikido & FMA/JKD
We do not rise to the level of our expectations, but fall to the level of our training. Train well. KWATZ!
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Old 04-06-2007, 12:39 AM   #20
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Re: Aikido: The Way of Avoidance

Lynn, I think for once I agree with you, maybe that's twice now actually.

Aikido is about being in rhythm with what others are doing. You could use it to avoid, evade, enter, confront etc. etc. Avoidance is only one aspect, you can do lots of different things with Aiki.

That's why it's simply called Aikido. Someone who thought he was clever came up with Aikido:the art of peace. Just like you could write a book called Aikido: the art of avoidance. Putting so many tags on it just makes it harder to figure out though.

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Old 04-06-2007, 04:04 AM   #21
Alec Corper
 
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Re: Aikido: The Way of Avoidance

Enter, always enter. Avoidance is the wrong state of mind and increases the longevity of conflict. Even tenkan should be performed in the spirit of irimi.

If your temper rises withdraw your hand, if your hand rises withdraw your temper.
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Old 04-06-2007, 06:07 AM   #22
dps
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Re: Aikido: The Way of Avoidance

Quote:
Alec Corper wrote: View Post
Enter, always enter. Avoidance is the wrong state of mind and increases the longevity of conflict. Even tenkan should be performed in the spirit of irimi.
How does avoidance of a conflict increase the longevity of the conflict. If I am not there, there is no conflict.

David
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Old 04-06-2007, 06:12 AM   #23
dps
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Re: Aikido: The Way of Avoidance

Quote:
Lynn Seiser wrote: View Post
IMHO, I am not avoiding or controling, but rather entering and blending.
If an attacker tries to kick you in the groin do you avoid the kick?
David
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Old 04-06-2007, 06:15 AM   #24
dps
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Re: Aikido: The Way of Avoidance

Quote:
Rupert Atkinson wrote: View Post
Sorry, I don't see Aikido as avoidance.
I did not say that Aikido was avoidance, I was saying that avoidance is the first step you do in an Aikido technique, then blending, harmony and finally control.

David
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Old 04-06-2007, 06:16 AM   #25
dps
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Re: Aikido: The Way of Avoidance

Quote:
Eric Webber wrote: View Post
When I put things in a blender (e.g. milk, ice cream, some vanilla extract, maybe a little dark chocolate...mmmm), they don't avoid each other or make room for each other. They exchange properties to make a greater whole (and a great milkshake!). When I "blend" with a partner, I mix whatever he/she brings to the interaction with what I bring to the interaction. There is no avoidance in blending.
The avoidance comes before blending.

David
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