Welcome to AikiWeb Aikido Information
AikiWeb: The Source for Aikido Information
AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information.

Sections
home
aikido articles
columns

Discussions
forums
aikiblogs

Databases
dojo search
seminars
image gallery
supplies
links directory

Reviews
book reviews
video reviews
dvd reviews
equip. reviews

News
submit
archive

Miscellaneous
newsletter
rss feeds
polls
about

Follow us on



Home > AikiWeb Aikido Forums
Go Back   AikiWeb Aikido Forums > General

Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history, humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced features available, you will need to register first. Registration is absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 04-15-2007, 09:20 PM   #1
Paul Sanderson-Cimino
Dojo: Yoshokai; looking into judo
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 424
United_States
Offline
Aikido's Intended/Ideal Context

I'd like to tap the experience and creativity of this forum to work on a little thought experiment suggested to me recently. Aikido's pretty clearly not meant for the UFC. But say a hopeful skeptic were asking you, "Okay, I believe you that it's a true martial tradition, just not one meant for UFC brawling. So, can you show me a contest where aikido skills -would- help?"

That is: if you had to design a competition (or at least, demonstration with "alive", resisting partners) that would showcase aikido, what would it be? If you wanted to manipulate the rules most strongly in your favor, what would you do?

Everything's fair game, so long as the end result isn't too wacky. Many of those variables that people complain about when discussing MMA are open for change:
  • Weapons - Bladed or blunt? One side armed or both sides armed? Trying to take weapons or trying to retain them? What constitutes a "winning" blow or series of blows?
  • Gear - Speedos and gloves? Everyday clothing? Keikogi? Samurai armor?
  • Multiple Combatants - 2-on-1? 2-on-2? (etc.)
  • Experience of partners - vs. professional fighters, or vs. people untrained in martial arts?
  • Time Limit - Automatic draw at X minutes? Randomized loss at X minutes? Shorter than the UFC? Longer than the UFC?
  • Fatigue - Require people to run X miles before stepping into the ring?
  • Terrain - Open ring, or winding corridors?

And so on. Anything you like. If you had to make the ruleset that would most favor aikidoka (without being too absurdly abstracted from some form of combat), what would it be?

Note: Please don't say, "strengthening a community" or "developing character". Obviously, those are valuable; they are probably hands-down the most valuable things a martial art can do in today's world. However, I'm not after the ura, the inner or less-obvious meaning of aikido; my question is fundamentally about the omote, the outer or "literal" meaning of aikido practice. That is, if the idea is that "aikido is a martial art that betters the world", I'm asking about the "martial art" part.

Last edited by Paul Sanderson-Cimino : 04-15-2007 at 09:23 PM. Reason: Gear
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-15-2007, 10:13 PM   #2
L. Camejo
 
L. Camejo's Avatar
Dojo: Ontario Martial Arts
Location: Mississauga, Ontario
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 1,423
Canada
Offline
Re: Aikido's Intended/Ideal Context

Quote:
Paul Sanderson-Cimino wrote: View Post
That is, if the idea is that "aikido is a martial art that betters the world", I'm asking about the "martial art" part.
The best rules for Aikido to be expressed "martially" is wherever there is a conflict that needs resolution. The real question is... are you and your training methods up to the task of manifesting what the principles of the art teach?

But since that is too easy an answer (even though the most difficult for many) we can take the ruleset found here as one way of looking at things - http://www.tomiki.org/rules.html.

So:

Weapons - Blunt weapon. 1 side armed, probably a knife or both unarmed can be an option too. Armed person should be able to retain weapon, unarmed should be trying to take it away and if possible use it.

Scoring - If one is stabbed or slashed cleanly (killing or maiming blow based on degree of penetration) 3 times then fight is over, person with weapon wins. If hits are like short jabs, one point for a solid, easily identifiable jab. 2 clean throws/submission (lock) ends fight, with unarmed person winner. Points awarded for partial waza and throws as in Judo rules. This entices solid attacks as well as clean technique.

Gear - Everyday clothing would be best but keikogi can work to absorb lots of sweat and limit clothing being destroyed, naked competitors etc.

If one has dealt with a single attacker in a resistance-type environment one would realise the severe danger that accompanies the added difficulty of another resisting attacker. No technique should be disallowed but could get very messy. If all parties were armed with a knife though it could be interesting.

Fighter experience - anybody.

Time Limit - 5 minutes or until submission/unconsciousness.

Fatigue? - Don't see the reason if one is having multiple bouts separated by a few minutes. Fatigue will be happening by 3rd bout or so.

Terrain - Open matted area. Would be nice to have some environmental hazards.

Just my few cents, obviously I have nothing better to do right now.

LC

--Mushin Mugamae - No Mind No Posture. He who is possessed by nothing possesses everything.--
http://www.tntaikido.org
http://www.mushinkan.ca
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-15-2007, 10:34 PM   #3
Paul Sanderson-Cimino
Dojo: Yoshokai; looking into judo
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 424
United_States
Offline
Re: Aikido's Intended/Ideal Context

Quote:
Larry Camejo wrote: View Post
The best rules for Aikido to be expressed "martially" is wherever there is a conflict that needs resolution. The real question is... are you and your training methods up to the task of manifesting what the principles of the art teach?
Absolutely. However, here I'm deliberately narrowing the question. In short, if you were to design a single contest (or demonstration using "live" partners), what would it be? What is your idea of where aikido works best?

Quote:
Larry Camejo wrote: View Post
But since that is too easy an answer (even though the most difficult for many) we can take the ruleset found here as one way of looking at things - http://www.tomiki.org/rules.html.
Somehow, I'm not sure Shodokan is the best model for this. Although I think it gives some ideas. Still, I suppose the rules about what constitutes a win are too strict, or something. That is, all the Shodokan matches I've seen fail to resemble at all someone actually being attacked with a knife: they wrestle, struggle, and so forth, often being struck repeatedly about the arms (or open to such); even grappling with the knife resting on the unarmed person's shoulder! Perhaps if the definition of a hit were expanded, we'd see greater commitment?

I feel that having everyone armed with a knife might well give the advantage less to aikidoka and more to martial artists whose art focuses on the realistic use of a knife.

Actually, my personal hunch is that trying to take away a blunt, bludgeoning sort of weapon might be aikido's forte. Shomenuchi and yokomenuchi look a lot like how such a weapon might be deployed. Also, a blunt weapon is a lot more forgiving: it only really does damage on a solid swing, rather than simply sliding over the target area.

Thanks for the reply.
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-15-2007, 10:50 PM   #4
L. Camejo
 
L. Camejo's Avatar
Dojo: Ontario Martial Arts
Location: Mississauga, Ontario
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 1,423
Canada
Offline
Re: Aikido's Intended/Ideal Context

I don't think the Shodokan ruleset is the absolute best either, I merely offered it as a base from which some can develop a method.

What you see in competition most of the time is poor imho hence the flaws you have indicated that make no sense. But then imho this level is indicative of the vast majority of the Aikido world today (flame retardant suit on) so we have a lot of stuff to work on and really develop if we want to execute this thing the way it was designed to be executed.

Regarding weapons, in a world of generally okay Aikidoka, without something like a knife to keep people apart what you will end up with is a bad Judo-looking grappling match as people close distance into grappling range. The knife keeps the ma ai beyond arms length which is where Aikido's forte is imho.

Quote:
I feel that having everyone armed with a knife might well give the advantage less to aikidoka and more to martial artists whose art focuses on the realistic use of a knife.
It also forces Aikidoka to widen their perspective and realise that even though waza is well-performed empty handed, having a blade in the hand gives the same waza an entirely new expression. In this way Aikidoka start showing where the use of the short sword comes into the method and are also challenged to gain a better understanding of the actual use of weapons instead of just as a "training aid".

Just 2 cents.
LC

--Mushin Mugamae - No Mind No Posture. He who is possessed by nothing possesses everything.--
http://www.tntaikido.org
http://www.mushinkan.ca
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-16-2007, 02:54 AM   #5
xuzen
 
xuzen's Avatar
Dojo: None at the moment - on hiatus
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 965
Malaysia
Offline
Re: Aikido's Intended/Ideal Context

Quote:
Larry Camejo wrote: View Post
Weapons - Blunt weapon. 1 side armed, probably a knife or both unarmed can be an option too. Armed person should be able to retain weapon, unarmed should be trying to take it away and if possible use it.

Scoring - If one is stabbed or slashed cleanly (killing or maiming blow based on degree of penetration) 3 times then fight is over, person with weapon wins. If hits are like short jabs, one point for a solid, easily identifiable jab. 2 clean throws/submission (lock) ends fight, with unarmed person winner. Points awarded for partial waza and throws as in Judo rules. This entices solid attacks as well as clean technique.

Gear - Everyday clothing would be best but keikogi can work to absorb lots of sweat and limit clothing being destroyed, naked competitors etc.

If one has dealt with a single attacker in a resistance-type environment one would realise the severe danger that accompanies the added difficulty of another resisting attacker. No technique should be disallowed but could get very messy. If all parties were armed with a knife though it could be interesting.

Fighter experience - anybody.

Time Limit - 5 minutes or until submission/unconsciousness.

Fatigue? - Don't see the reason if one is having multiple bouts separated by a few minutes. Fatigue will be happening by 3rd bout or so.

Terrain - Open matted area. Would be nice to have some environmental hazards.

Just my few cents, obviously I have nothing better to do right now.

LC
Larry,
How could you forget the very important thing :-
Sexy Pretty Ringside Gurlz, SPRG (TM) and/or
Gorgoeus Ringside Hunks, GRH (TM)

Boon.

SHOMEN-ATE (TM), the solution to 90% of aikido and life's problems.
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-16-2007, 04:41 AM   #6
L. Camejo
 
L. Camejo's Avatar
Dojo: Ontario Martial Arts
Location: Mississauga, Ontario
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 1,423
Canada
Offline
Re: Aikido's Intended/Ideal Context

Quote:
Xu Wenfung wrote: View Post
Larry,
How could you forget the very important thing :-
Sexy Pretty Ringside Gurlz, SPRG (TM) and/or
Gorgoeus Ringside Hunks, GRH (TM)

Boon.
Aww man Boon you are so right. It was late and my brain was firing on 1 cylinder.

Ringside hotties are a DEFINITE critical requirement.

LC

--Mushin Mugamae - No Mind No Posture. He who is possessed by nothing possesses everything.--
http://www.tntaikido.org
http://www.mushinkan.ca
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-16-2007, 08:06 AM   #7
Paul Sanderson-Cimino
Dojo: Yoshokai; looking into judo
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 424
United_States
Offline
Re: Aikido's Intended/Ideal Context

Quote:
Larry Camejo wrote: View Post
Regarding weapons, in a world of generally okay Aikidoka, without something like a knife to keep people apart what you will end up with is a bad Judo-looking grappling match as people close distance into grappling range. The knife keeps the ma ai beyond arms length which is where Aikido's forte is imho.
Not just in your humble opinion. Also, IKTHO (In Kenji Tomiki's Humble Opinion)!

I think this is a major key to this whole exercise. It seems that aikido ma-ai breaks almost instantly; it's a momentary transition point between striking and grappling. A knife will certainly keep that distance.

So I think that probably a knife-taking competition might be a place where aikido would do well. Perhaps the old "white clothes with a red marker" setup?
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-16-2007, 08:13 AM   #8
Dewey
Location: St. Louis, MO
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 179
United_States
Offline
Re: Aikido's Intended/Ideal Context

Although I see where you're going, I think that if you want to uncover the intended context of Aikido, perhaps you should investigate its technical antecedent, Daito ryu Aikijujutsu...a devastating martial art largely intended for disarming attackers, both armed and unarmed while yourself being unarmed. Competition and full-contact sparring are simply out of the question: too dangerous.

Modern Aikido has moved pretty far away from Daito ryu, whether some think this is a good thing or bad. However, the self-imposed "prohibition" against competition in modern Aikido is based upon safety reasons as well as ethical/spiritual reasons that came as O'Sensei matured in his approach to Budo.

Although, I think that Tomiki was on to something when he introduced randori into his interpretation of Aikido. I think that the idea of the "resisting uke" needs to find a place in Aikido.
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-16-2007, 08:52 AM   #9
Paul Sanderson-Cimino
Dojo: Yoshokai; looking into judo
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 424
United_States
Offline
Re: Aikido's Intended/Ideal Context

Quote:
Brian Dewey wrote: View Post
perhaps you should investigate its technical antecedent, Daito ryu Aikijujutsu...a devastating martial art largely intended for disarming attackers, both armed and unarmed while yourself being unarmed.
I remember this came up in one of Ellis Amdur's articles (I think "Fighting on Your Knees".) One of his skeptical queries makes sense: if it's about disarming armed attackers...why not put a weapon in uke's hand during kata practice? Police officers don't practice using pointed fingers, and iaidoka don't practice with tegatana.

Quote:
Brian Dewey wrote: View Post
Competition and full-contact sparring are simply out of the question: too dangerous.
I'm skeptical of this. Is there no way to exhibit aikido's proficiency without putting those involved in mortal danger? I think MMAers are right to be wary of an art that claims to be very potent, but so deadly that it can never be practiced under live conditions.

I have serious doubts about any art that claims to teach taking a sword from someone using one's bare hands. Still, if you had a shinai-taking competition, aikido just might be demonstrably more effective than other methods, true. I just have a feeling that even the aikido success rate would be something like 10%.
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-16-2007, 09:58 AM   #10
Dewey
Location: St. Louis, MO
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 179
United_States
Offline
Re: Aikido's Intended/Ideal Context

Quote:
Paul Sanderson-Cimino wrote: View Post

I'm skeptical of this. Is there no way to exhibit aikido's proficiency without putting those involved in mortal danger? I think MMAers are right to be wary of an art that claims to be very potent, but so deadly that it can never be practiced under live conditions.

.
I would partially agree. I firmly believe that randori needs to be incorporated in Aikido...the concept of the "resisting uke" for a more realistic training scenario. However, there is an enormous difference between randori and competition, although they appear the same on the surface. Frequently, competition rapidly deteriorates into a spectator sport. Example: look at what is happening with the UFC and all of the theatrics that are being injected into it.

Mortal danger? Why? Leaving aside the whole issue of legality (i.e. getting sued as well as being arrested for assault), I really have no need or desire to prove myself to anybody. What's next? Are they going to question my manhood, or insult my mother if I refuse to "climb into ring" or "step onto the mat" with them?

What's more, competitive MMA is a controlled environment just like the dojo with compliant ukes. There are clear rules about what is not allowed, nor is it mortal combat nor does it offer any more of a "real world" scenario, despite what its pundits claim. Do you honestly think that MMA athletes are willing to kill or be killed in their matches? Are real fights confined to a padded, level terrain with no objects or obstacles? How effective are ground fighting skills on the concrete or in a confined space? Are groin, eye or throat strikes banned in a real fight? What about biting & hair-pulling or small joint manipulation? Is there "tapping out" or a time limit in an assault? What about against a gun?

Not trying to be an ass, but let's be honest here. I think the truth lies somewhere in the middle concerning the question of effectiveness. A well-trained Aikidoka who is placed is a genuinely life-threatening situation where there is a "clear and present danger" can be just as effective as a MMA artist in protecting themselves. Self-preservation transcends technique.
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-16-2007, 10:28 AM   #11
Erick Mead
 
Erick Mead's Avatar
Dojo: Big Green Drum (W. Florida Aikikai)
Location: West Florida
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 2,430
United_States
Offline
Re: Aikido's Intended/Ideal Context

Quote:
Brian Dewey wrote: View Post
Are real fights confined to a padded, level terrain with no objects or obstacles? How effective are ground fighting skills on the concrete or in a confined space? Are groin, eye or throat strikes banned in a real fight? What about biting & hair-pulling or small joint manipulation? Is there "tapping out" or a time limit in an assault? What about against a gun?
Quote:
(You guess.) wrote:
Self-Defense teacher: Now, it's quite simple to deal with a banana fiend. First, you force him to drop the banana. Then, you eat the banana, thus disarming him. You have now rendered him helpless!
Self-Defense student #2: Suppose he's got a bunch?
Self-Defense teacher: SHUT UP!
Self-Defense student #4: Suppose he's got a pointed stick?
Self-Defense teacher: ...SHUT UP!

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-16-2007, 10:30 AM   #12
Erick Mead
 
Erick Mead's Avatar
Dojo: Big Green Drum (W. Florida Aikikai)
Location: West Florida
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 2,430
United_States
Offline
Re: Aikido's Intended/Ideal Context

Quote:
Brian Dewey wrote: View Post
Self-preservation transcends technique.
More seriously.

A case can be made that Aikido properly transcends "self-preservation."

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-16-2007, 10:48 AM   #13
Paul Sanderson-Cimino
Dojo: Yoshokai; looking into judo
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 424
United_States
Offline
Re: Aikido's Intended/Ideal Context

Quote:
Brian Dewey wrote: View Post
I would partially agree. I firmly believe that randori needs to be incorporated in Aikido...the concept of the "resisting uke" for a more realistic training scenario. However, there is an enormous difference between randori and competition, although they appear the same on the surface.
I definitely agree. I believe that randori-style practice in aikido should be kept inside the dojo, as a training exercise, not as something you "win". Approaching it just as seriously as kata practice, rather than with the levity of "Hey, let's play a game!" There's something about the psychology of a wrestling match that just doesn't seem right in budo.

Quote:
Brian Dewey wrote: View Post
What's more, competitive MMA is a controlled environment just like the dojo with compliant ukes. There are clear rules about what is not allowed, nor is it mortal combat nor does it offer any more of a "real world" scenario, despite what its pundits claim.
True, but as far as testing unarmed one-on-one fighting, it's pretty close to a "real" encounter. Real enough, anyway, that it's similar to some recognizable form of fighting - and thus a valid demonstration of a "martial art". If those rules were relaxed (at the expense of safety), I'm not entirely sure that it would disrupt the basic integrity of the techniques that have proven themselves there. (I've heard some arguments that wrestling takedowns might fall apart in a context where blows could be aimed at the back of the neck; probably some things would change.)

My idea here is to say: if MMA functions as an effective demonstration of boxing, wrestling, judo, BJJ, Muay Thai, and so on...but for some reason NOT aikido (despite its superficial similarity to judo in terms of derivation and intended context)...is there a ruleset that might allow aikido to prove itself?

Basically, I'm contemplating a hypothetical answer to the MMAer who says, "Aikido looks great, but I'd like to see some sort of demonstration against live opponents."

For instance, would removing the gloves and wristwraps help, by making punching the head more dangerous for the puncher? Or would that just make kicks and body-blows more valuable in stand-up, and shift the game more to judo/wrestling/BJJ takedowns and grappling?
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-16-2007, 12:24 PM   #14
Alfonso
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 346
Offline
Re: Aikido's Intended/Ideal Context

I think the only hypotetical answer that could possibly satisfy anyone like that is "let me show you" . If you can swing it you'll get a convert.

Alfonso Adriasola
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-16-2007, 01:45 PM   #15
Dewey
Location: St. Louis, MO
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 179
United_States
Offline
Re: Aikido's Intended/Ideal Context

Quote:
Paul Sanderson-Cimino wrote: View Post
My idea here is to say: if MMA functions as an effective demonstration of boxing, wrestling, judo, BJJ, Muay Thai, and so on...but for some reason NOT aikido (despite its superficial similarity to judo in terms of derivation and intended context)...is there a ruleset that might allow aikido to prove itself?

Basically, I'm contemplating a hypothetical answer to the MMAer who says, "Aikido looks great, but I'd like to see some sort of demonstration against live opponents."
I understand what you're getting at now. My answer (which I have actually given in real life to varying degrees of success) is that Aikido is a martial art of self-defense and not a fighting art. Aikido works on the street in real-life situations with its less-than-ideal circumstances, not in the octagon with a padded level surface, rules, time limits and such. That's why a good deal of Aikido techniques are used in the tactical training of law enforcement personnel. Aikido is not meant to maim and/or kill your attacker, only subdue them. So, if they're looking for the ultimate fighting art...then keep on looking elsewhere. That's not what Aikido is about. True enough, aikido as it is practiced in many dojo is not nearly as intense as it is for law enforcement personnel here in America or for the Tokyo Riot Police (who are required to learn Yoshinkan Aikido, by the way). Hence, the reputation that it is a "soft" and "ineffective" martial art. However, with increased intensity (i.e. randori & resisting ukes who make committed attacks), Aikido is a very effective self-defense art.

Thus, I give them a concession (low intensity training as the culprit as well as the simple fact that Aikido is not a fighting art), but I completely disagree as to the alleged ineffectiveness of Aikido.
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-16-2007, 03:38 PM   #16
Kevin Leavitt
 
Kevin Leavitt's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido of Northern Virginia
Location: Stuttgart, Baden Wurttemberg
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 4,376
Germany
Offline
Re: Aikido's Intended/Ideal Context

The parameters you defined in your first post are the ones I pretty much train with daily as I am an Army Combatives Instructor primarily here in Europe.

We are not concerned with the practice of budo, but learning to simply be effective fighters for our jobs and the multitude of scenarios you might face.

What I'd pose as a perspective is this:

Once you define the parameters to demonstrate effectiveness as you did in your post, then why concern yourself or limit yourself to a particular methodolgy such as aikido...you'd simply be doing MMA methodologies and a particular methodology such as aikido becomes absorbed into the process and pretty much irrelevant at that point..you simple are doing what you need to do say against a knife attack from whatever scenario you decide to create.

Actually the criteria you propose is fairly decent as it allows you to layer your training to develop a well rounded fighting game while minimizing damage and allowing for lessons to be learned.

  Reply With Quote
Old 04-17-2007, 06:03 AM   #17
DonMagee
Location: Indiana
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 1,311
United_States
Offline
Re: Aikido's Intended/Ideal Context

Quote:
Paul Sanderson-Cimino wrote: View Post
True, but as far as testing unarmed one-on-one fighting, it's pretty close to a "real" encounter. Real enough, anyway, that it's similar to some recognizable form of fighting - and thus a valid demonstration of a "martial art". If those rules were relaxed (at the expense of safety), I'm not entirely sure that it would disrupt the basic integrity of the techniques that have proven themselves there. (I've heard some arguments that wrestling takedowns might fall apart in a context where blows could be aimed at the back of the neck; probably some things would change.)
Actually, even when there were less rules, or even no rules, the same techniques were still just fine. So it is not speculation, it has been done and proven that these techniques are valid even when there are no rules. As for the takedown elbow to the back fallacy, most people arguing this defense are just plain wrong. You have to defend the takedown before you can throw elbows. Attempting to elbow without first defending the takedown either by a wizzer or a sprawl does no good. You see guys sprawl then knee to effectively stop a wrestler, the same would work with elbows if it was legal, but they first have to defend the takedown. The guys advocating elbows are not talking about defending the takedown, if they were they would say you need to learn to sprawl or wizzer. Instead they are saying to do this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=noUgEEY6-WE (watch at 27 seconds). Take note that the elbows could not stop even a sloppy horrible takedown like that. It has been proven time and time again on video that you can not strike effectively when you do not defend the takedown. Any aikido person should know you can not strike effectively off balance.

Quote:
Paul Sanderson-Cimino wrote: View Post
My idea here is to say: if MMA functions as an effective demonstration of boxing, wrestling, judo, BJJ, Muay Thai, and so on...but for some reason NOT aikido (despite its superficial similarity to judo in terms of derivation and intended context)...is there a ruleset that might allow aikido to prove itself?
I don't think you should need to find a ruleset, rather just train with more aliveness and you will find any art can lend itself well to MMA. Of course it will probably not look much like aikido, there will be many things you learn that are insular and have little bearing outside of aikido. Just like all the gi techniques I learn in bjj have little bearing on MMA. 85% of my bjj training is focused on gi matches. I could argue we do not see much gi grappling in MMA so my skill must be useless for MMA, but rather, I just train with aliveness and learn how to adapt what I know in theory, to what works in practice.

Quote:
Paul Sanderson-Cimino wrote: View Post
Basically, I'm contemplating a hypothetical answer to the MMAer who says, "Aikido looks great, but I'd like to see some sort of demonstration against live opponents."
I don't think you even need a MMA match to satisfy this, just some positional drills with aliveness. See this thread http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11847 for ideas.

Quote:
Paul Sanderson-Cimino wrote: View Post
For instance, would removing the gloves and wristwraps help, by making punching the head more dangerous for the puncher? Or would that just make kicks and body-blows more valuable in stand-up, and shift the game more to judo/wrestling/BJJ takedowns and grappling?
With no gloves in the first UFC vids, it did not stop them from punching at all, and while a few people broke there hands, the majority did not. Of course Bas did just fine with open hand slaps, he even knocked guys out with them.

Don't worry about rules. Worry about training with aliveness.

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-17-2007, 09:05 AM   #18
Paul Sanderson-Cimino
Dojo: Yoshokai; looking into judo
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 424
United_States
Offline
Re: Aikido's Intended/Ideal Context

Quote:
Don Magee wrote: View Post
I don't think you even need a MMA match to satisfy this, just some positional drills with aliveness. See this thread http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11847 for ideas.
Those look great! Thanks. When I have a few minutes (after work), I'll read them in more detail.
  Reply With Quote

Please visit our sponsor:

AikiWeb Sponsored Links - Place your Aikido link here for only $10!



Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Obstacle to Aikido's Mission? Suru Spiritual 19 12-22-2005 09:19 AM
Realizing Aikido's Potential Nafis Zahir General 1 07-25-2005 04:32 AM
Aikido's true use acot General 15 08-01-2003 05:35 AM
Aikido's Pressure Points Bruce Baker Techniques 21 07-12-2002 05:13 PM
Aikido's Spirit, open to interpretation? Bruce Baker Spiritual 25 06-29-2002 11:55 AM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 11:12 PM.



vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2014 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
----------
Copyright 1997-2014 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
----------
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
plainlaid-picaresque outchasing-protistan explicantia-altarage seaford-stellionate