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Old 04-24-2007, 08:30 AM   #76
Peter Goldsbury
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Re: "We don't do that here"

Mr Saroufin,

Many thanks for your reply.

I should add that I have some basis for the opinions I hold about Shinto. For many years I have taught a course here to Japanese university students. The course compares the first half of Genesis with the first part of the Kojiki, which is the basis of Shinto beliefs. The differences are very striking and form the basis for a very fruitful comparison between a montheistic religion like Christianity, the main beliefs of which can be summarized in a creed, and a polytheistic religion like Shinto, except that Shinto is not really polytheistic and is not really a religion, in the Christian sense.

Like the term shinto, the Japanese equivalent of religion is a very recent term, coined around the Meiji Restoration in 1868, as a result of Japan's having to have 'freedom of religion', as a result of treaty obligations with western powers. Since Shinto is not a religion based on doctrine, a Christian who embraces Shinto has to make a serious mental leap, in the same way that a Japanese who has been brought up as an adherent of Shinto and who embraces Christianity, also has to make a serious mental leap.

However, the Shinto embraced by O Sensei was also part of an amalgam of practices involving Shingon Buddhism and the blend of borrowings expressed as Omoto-kyo. Thus I believe that O Sensei's spiritual pracices were much more of a hotchpoch than those of, e.g., a Catholic Christian.

Best wishes,

P A Goldsbury
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Old 04-24-2007, 08:57 AM   #77
jennifer paige smith
 
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Re: "We don't do that here"

Quote:
Nathan Gidney wrote: View Post
I have to disagree with the main post here.

The art may be from japan. But it certainly doesn't belong to the Japanese anymore like it once did. Aikido is now a world art. I see absolutely no reason to restrict ourselves to the japanese language or religion when practicing and I don't believe it was the founders wishes that we do. I would like to think that Ueshiba would have expected us to see aikido through our own faith.

Aikido does not belong to shinto. It does not belong to Japan.

I hate it when my kohai try to talk to me in japanese or call me 'Gidney san.' I'm an American, in an American dojo and I consider it rude. I'm fine with Senpai, but if you need to address me by my name, call me Mr. Gidney, or just Nathan.
O'Sensei stated emphatically over and over again that Aikido was a gift from the gods for all of mankind. It never belonged to him. It never belonged to Japan and it doesn't belong to us. He discoursed about the experince of having divine inspiration run through him at all times (hence take musu or courageous creation) and he would draw from that source. He said it was not his, it could not be locked up in a building (or institution). O'Sensei trained daily to maintain that state of relationship.
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Old 04-25-2007, 06:32 AM   #78
KamiKaze_Evolution
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Re: "We don't do that here"

Heya folks!

I'm sorry to you all for my impolite with such issues at past, i were too subjective with those but my intentions weren't judge or condemn anybody and i don't ever wanna force someone to change his/her mind. I had exactly face big arguement among Christianity at few years ago, but some of non-Muslims (i mean such as Buddhists, Taoists, Hindus, Sikhs, etc) at my country consider that Malaysian Muslims are more conservative with such issues. Evenly i attend prayer at Christian church, i have been heard direct answer from some pastors or evangelists and some regular attendees but i am sorry because i feel unflexible to tell you all that.

I have very closed Catholic friend and i went to discuss martial arts issue with him, and he has been discussed it with his Catholic father. The answer is a Catholic could attend physical excersice if that physical excersice has no smells belong to other than Catholicism belief, it sounds like conservative and that Catholic father is seens like very adjective with martial arts activities.

I found few articles from Islam Online Dot Net regards Muslims in martial arts, and i would like to say that i have just found an answer from few articles of that website. But i don't wanna say poor stuffs about religions, just want to making this dicussion area peace. Personally, i don't think that martial arts has totally struggle with Christianity belief and it is safety for me.

Finally, i would like to send apology to you all folks if i am really overspace with my languages. Anywhat, i am very thanks for your comments all and i know that some Christian Aikidokas are facing same situation with me. I don't ever betray my Jesus god all the time i study Aikido, and now i am not being subjective to my churchmates with martial arts issues.

Have a nice day!

KamiKaze
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Old 04-25-2007, 10:14 AM   #79
jennifer paige smith
 
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Re: "We don't do that here"

Quote:
Anthony Wong wrote: View Post
Heya folks!

I'm sorry to you all for my impolite with such issues at past, i were too subjective with those but my intentions weren't judge or condemn anybody and i don't ever wanna force someone to change his/her mind. I had exactly face big arguement among Christianity at few years ago, but some of non-Muslims (i mean such as Buddhists, Taoists, Hindus, Sikhs, etc) at my country consider that Malaysian Muslims are more conservative with such issues. Evenly i attend prayer at Christian church, i have been heard direct answer from some pastors or evangelists and some regular attendees but i am sorry because i feel unflexible to tell you all that.

I have very closed Catholic friend and i went to discuss martial arts issue with him, and he has been discussed it with his Catholic father. The answer is a Catholic could attend physical excersice if that physical excersice has no smells belong to other than Catholicism belief, it sounds like conservative and that Catholic father is seens like very adjective with martial arts activities.

I found few articles from Islam Online Dot Net regards Muslims in martial arts, and i would like to say that i have just found an answer from few articles of that website. But i don't wanna say poor stuffs about religions, just want to making this dicussion area peace. Personally, i don't think that martial arts has totally struggle with Christianity belief and it is safety for me.

Finally, i would like to send apology to you all folks if i am really overspace with my languages. Anywhat, i am very thanks for your comments all and i know that some Christian Aikidokas are facing same situation with me. I don't ever betray my Jesus god all the time i study Aikido, and now i am not being subjective to my churchmates with martial arts issues.

Have a nice day!
Within my budo teaching alliance we have pagans, buddhists, christians, muslims, catholics, atheists, deists,taoists, jews, and secularists to name a few. My only question is what great beauty brought all of these people together (or what kind of restaraunt should we open?)?
Together we are a Budo family.
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Old 04-25-2007, 10:30 AM   #80
KamiKaze_Evolution
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Re: "We don't do that here"

It's multipute community, quite hard as well if a guy wanna opens a restaurant. Until now, the best is to prepare either "halal" or vegeterian foods. Quite complicated as a leader leads up multipute community, the reason is the leader must be fairfulness with the community.

KamiKaze
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Old 04-25-2007, 11:49 AM   #81
heathererandolph
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Re: "We don't do that here"

If you were late to class, would you still clap?
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Old 04-25-2007, 12:09 PM   #82
Mark Uttech
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Re: "We don't do that here"

Some people, when late to class, after being welcomed to come on the mat, perform a seated bow and a gesture of clapping (silently).

In gassho,

Mark
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Old 04-25-2007, 02:36 PM   #83
KamiKaze_Evolution
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Re: "We don't do that here"

Quote:
Heather Randolph wrote: View Post
If you were late to class, would you still clap?
I would not clap if i am late to class, first of all is seiza at corner until sensei's allowance. After that, i bow to sensei all the way without closing my palms.

KamiKaze
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Old 04-25-2007, 05:04 PM   #84
crbateman
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Re: "We don't do that here"

I'm supposed to clap at the start of class?? OMG, I've got to get my hearing checked. I thought they said crap. No wonder I can't get an uke...
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Old 04-25-2007, 06:15 PM   #85
Luc X Saroufim
 
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Re: "We don't do that here"

Quote:
Jennifer Smith wrote: View Post
O'Sensei stated emphatically over and over again that Aikido was a gift from the gods for all of mankind. .
he certainly did.

i believe that on a practical level, it has its ties to Japan. most of O'Sensei's greatest influences are from there, not to mention the Judo behind the techniques, as well as the Katana. my cousin studies Karate and loves seeing the similarities between the two.

however, with reference to clapping, spirituality, and philosophy, i think you're right: O'Sensei's wanted peace for the entire world (after becoming a warrior and training the army).

who knows what his intentions were, but we can read our own meanings from what he said!
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Old 04-26-2007, 02:48 AM   #86
jennifer paige smith
 
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Re: "We don't do that here"

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Luc Saroufim wrote: View Post
he certainly did.

i believe that on a practical level, it has its ties to Japan. most of O'Sensei's greatest influences are from there, not to mention the Judo behind the techniques, as well as the Katana. my cousin studies Karate and loves seeing the similarities between the two.

however, with reference to clapping, spirituality, and philosophy, i think you're right: O'Sensei's wanted peace for the entire world (after becoming a warrior and training the army).

who knows what his intentions were, but we can read our own meanings from what he said!
O'Sensei said his greatest inspiration was nature.

I also love the similarities between native expressions.

A similar spiritual practice to aikido is Lakota Spirituality, particularly the Sun Dance. Cool stuff
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Old 05-01-2007, 09:26 AM   #87
KamiKaze_Evolution
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Re: "We don't do that here"

Only narrowed mind persons consider that martial arts is heretic stuffs, i mean a type peoples like hairy face Talibanies army of Afghanistan country. Nobody can make correction to such persons, and such misunderstand is too deep and too serious.

KamiKaze
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Old 05-01-2007, 09:51 PM   #88
Lachlan Kadick
 
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Re: "We don't do that here"

"The Art of Peace that I practice has room for each of the world's eight million gods, and I cooperate with them all. The God of Peace is very great and enjoins all that is divine and enlightened in every land." -The Art of Peace, 103

O'Sensei encouraged all religions and never forced it on anyone else. This is Aikido, only taken what is given, and not forcing upon other, especially when not asked.

I apologize if I have this wrong, but this is how I have always understood Aikido and religion.

Thank You,
Lachlan Kadick

Think big, Live humbly.
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Old 05-01-2007, 10:08 PM   #89
Lachlan Kadick
 
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Re: "We don't do that here"

"In the Art of Peace we never attack. An attack is proof that one is out of control. Never run away from any kind of challenge, but do not try to suppress or control an opponent unnaturally. Let attackers come any way they like and then blend with them. Never chase after opponents. Redirect each attack and get firmly behind it."- The Art of Peace, 83

"Instructors can impart only a fraction of the teaching. It is through your own devoted practice that the mysteries of the Art of Peace are brought to life." -The Art of Peace, 46

Sorry, just some more, quotes I thought applied.

Thank you,
Lachlan Kadick

Think big, Live humbly.
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Old 05-01-2007, 11:01 PM   #90
Mark Uttech
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Re: "We don't do that here"

I think it is impossible to never attack. Sometimes I attack mosquitos.

In gassho,
Mark
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Old 05-01-2007, 11:12 PM   #91
Lachlan Kadick
 
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Re: "We don't do that here"

Quote:
Mark Uttech wrote: View Post
I think it is impossible to never attack. Sometimes I attack mosquitos.

In gassho,
Mark
^_^ Good example. I feel, though this is only my quick opinion, that this kind of situation is more a defensive act, especially with the disease that mosquitos now carry. It is also near impossible to stop them otherwise from attacking you in most situations. I feel that O'Sensei meant avoiding all purely desire based attacks, such as attacking another, mentally, physically or spiritually.

Thank You,
Lachlan Kadick

Think big, Live humbly.
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Old 05-02-2007, 12:18 AM   #92
dps
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Re: "We don't do that here"

Quote:
Lachlan Kadick wrote: View Post
"In the Art of Peace we never attack. An attack is proof that one is out of control.
Did O'Sensei say this?

David
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Old 05-02-2007, 05:07 AM   #93
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Re: "We don't do that here"

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Did O'Sensei say this?

David
The translator John Stevens did.

Some people take issues with his choices in translation.

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Old 05-02-2007, 05:23 AM   #94
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Re: "We don't do that here"

I have zero interest in embracing in Shinto and found Gleason's book to be pretty ridiculous personally.

We have never clapped. Whether it's our Aikido Reiho or if I am visiting somewhere another Aikido organization's Reiho or my Iaido organization's Reiho, I view Reiho simply as a nice formal way of putting myself in the moment and focusing my awareness on the practice at hand rather than what is going on with my life outside the dojo.

When wielding a razor sharp sword, this is a very practical matter. Given the potential for injury in aikido, it should be there too but I think students sometimes get too complacent about the danger and risks of practice.

Just my personal feeling.

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Old 05-02-2007, 12:00 PM   #95
Ellis Amdur
 
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Re: "We don't do that here"

In my dojo(s), 1) we bow twice, clap twice, bow once in Araki-ryu, 2) bow once in Buko-ryu, do not clap, but line up sempai to kohai which we don't do in Araki-ryu, and 3) when I teach aikido on my own ground, we bow once. If I am at someone else's dojo teaching, I ask the dojocho (boss of that dojo) to bow in and follow along as he or she does bowing to the kamiza - thus, I've clapped twice, thrice or four(th). Then I step up and bow ONLY to the students.
If one of my students - in America or elsewhere began speaking Japanese (excepting Japan, of course, or a native Japanese speaker on my mat) - or clapped when I didn't, or even mimed clapping without making contact with his/her hands (silly, in my opinion, because the gods thereby wouldn't hear you, so what would be the point, such rites being about pleasing the gods, not yourself) - I'd ask them to stop and never do that again. If they did it again, I'd tell them to leave my mat and never return.
If they wanted to discuss their ideas on what was right, I'd be happy to listen after a class. I would decide if I agreed or not - and decide by fiat, almost surely leaving things absolutely unchanged.
I would also expect the student to wholeheartedly commit to whatever decision I made, further expecting them to view it as the "only" way to the knowledge I was offering and they were soliciting. If they, like Galileo when ordered by the Inquisition to return to a geocentric view of the universe, mumbled "Yet it moves," then she or he should find another dojo and sensei who made the earth move for his or her. (Note, my friend, that Galileo was right - and you might be too - irrelevencies, to a considerable degree, in this context).
P.S. - I used to argue with one of my sensei quite frequently - we almost came to blows on several occasions - and he actually ended up coming around to my point of view, usually by waiting a few weeks and claiming that he had a "new idea" - mine - which he made no reference to. I'm not saying shut-up - but I am saying there are consequences, among which applause is unlikely.

Best

Last edited by Ellis Amdur : 05-02-2007 at 12:06 PM.

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Old 05-02-2007, 02:18 PM   #96
tarik
 
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Re: "We don't do that here"

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Ellis Amdur wrote: View Post
I would also expect the student to wholeheartedly commit to whatever decision I made, further expecting them to view it as the "only" way to the knowledge I was offering and they were soliciting.
I thoroughly agree with this, but expect to hear from lots of people about how 'undemocratic' this is or how unfair, or how "un-aiki" (what that seems to mean with how it's usually used around here is that if you don't agree with me, you're not folowing the spirit of aikido... WTF?!).

Democracy is not on the table. It's entirely fair, and it's entirely "aiki" (as I understand aiki to be 'fitting appropriately').

Quote:
Ellis Amdur wrote: View Post
I'm not saying shut-up - but I am saying there are consequences, among which applause is unlikely.


THUNDEROUS APPLAUSE

Tarik Ghbeish
Jiyūshin-ryū AikiBudō - Iwae Dojo

MASAKATSU AGATSU -- "The true victory of self-mastery."
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Old 05-24-2007, 08:10 AM   #97
Robert A. Wilkins
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Re: "We don't do that here"

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Joseph Connolly wrote: View Post
Luc,
Don't worry Gleason does not teach alot of classes. I think he does alot of seminars and outside events which keeps him busy. At any rate they don't clap either.

Are you at New England Aikikai?
Actually, Gleason Sensei teaches three classes a week. FYI, it has been the standard practice to clap twice at the beginning and ending of every class at Shobu Aikido for as long as I've been there.
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Old 05-24-2007, 10:39 AM   #98
jennifer paige smith
 
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Re: "We don't do that here"

Quote:
Anthony Wong wrote: View Post
Only narrowed mind persons consider that martial arts is heretic stuffs, i mean a type peoples like hairy face Talibanies army of Afghanistan country. Nobody can make correction to such persons, and such misunderstand is too deep and too serious.
Every person has a heart and a mind and a body. It is our job to train to get in. whether they be Talabanies, CIA covert operatives, Sandanistas, 'Red' Chinese, veterans of illegal wars, Hamas ( I could go on) and all the other 'bad guys' to us or someone else.

Jennifer Paige Smith
Confluence Aikido Systems
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Old 05-24-2007, 10:47 AM   #99
jennifer paige smith
 
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Re: "We don't do that here"

Quote:
Lachlan Kadick wrote: View Post
^_^ Good example. I feel, though this is only my quick opinion, that this kind of situation is more a defensive act, especially with the disease that mosquitos now carry. It is also near impossible to stop them otherwise from attacking you in most situations. I feel that O'Sensei meant avoiding all purely desire based attacks, such as attacking another, mentally, physically or spiritually.

Thank You,
Lachlan Kadick
off subject I believe, but. It isn't the physical action it is 'the mind' to attack. Meaning what is the purpose of your extension? What image are you developing, like a photo?

Jennifer Paige Smith
Confluence Aikido Systems
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Old 06-26-2007, 05:23 AM   #100
Toby Bazarnick
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Re: "We don't do that here"

Quote:
Joseph Connolly wrote: View Post
Luc,
Don't worry Gleason does not teach alot of classes. I think he does alot of seminars and outside events which keeps him busy. At any rate they don't clap either.

Are you at New England Aikikai?
Joseph, we've always clapped and Gleason Sensei teaches often.

In February when I was in Boston last, he was teaching 5 classes: Tue/Thu 5:45-6:45 & 7-8, and Sun 10-noon (usually an hour of sword).

Luc, I believe that his teaching is rare, valuable and accessible...worthy of a long commute. The inconvenient truth is that it's best to get real info in person.

Shobu Aikido of Boston's schedule is posted on www.shobu.org
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