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Old 04-16-2007, 09:00 PM   #76
Aristeia
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Re: MMA as catalyst for change in Aikido?

Quote:
Brian Dewey wrote: View Post
For an assault on the senses, perhaps you need to snoop around Bullshido.net, the premiere fan site for the MMA. March of '07 was officially declared "Aikido sucks" month. Simply go there and search "aikido" in their search engine...you'll see.
I'm very familiar with bullshido,net I have a number of posts over there. I beleive they have also recently had bjj sucks month.

While I tend to agree that bullshido has jumped the shark and there are many more immature fanboys there now -if you take out the colourful language what they're really saying is Aikido sucks for certain purposes. They don't often go around saying everyone should stop doing it but that it doesn't provide the tools that many aikidoka think it does. And that is the key point. Often when you expose that the MMA crowd and the Aiki crowd have different reasons for training - the disagreement goes away.

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
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Old 04-16-2007, 10:43 PM   #77
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Re: MMA as catalyst for change in Aikido?

I hope that Aikido will not change to meet the demands of the MMA craze. That will die down in a few years.
Also, I hope that some of these people will mature and embrace the values of the TMA and change thier ways.

We see people actively training in Aikido well into thier 50's and maybe even beyond. There are still a number of much older Sensei around, even if they are not training, they are still in the dojo and contributing. I can't imagine too many beyond the age of 35 staying active in MMA. If not for reasons of being too harsh on the body, then perhaps because these are not the kind of people who generally stay with anything for very long.

Aikido should remain as it is and be there kind of like an oasis for those MMAers who are currently lost.

Jim Mc Coy
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Old 04-17-2007, 12:23 AM   #78
Aristeia
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Re: MMA as catalyst for change in Aikido?

Quote:
Jim McCoy wrote: View Post
I hope that Aikido will not change to meet the demands of the MMA craze. That will die down in a few years.
Also, I hope that some of these people will mature and embrace the values of the TMA and change thier ways.

We see people actively training in Aikido well into thier 50's and maybe even beyond. There are still a number of much older Sensei around, even if they are not training, they are still in the dojo and contributing. I can't imagine too many beyond the age of 35 staying active in MMA. If not for reasons of being too harsh on the body, then perhaps because these are not the kind of people who generally stay with anything for very long.

Aikido should remain as it is and be there kind of like an oasis for those MMAers who are currently lost.
Wow. Just wow. What a judgemental, prejudiced riddled post. Change their ways? You make it sound like they're out theiven an whorin. Not the kind of people that stay at anything very long? What are you, kidding me? Have you any idea the strength of character and loss of ego it takes to compete in something like MMA? Those who "dont' stay with anything very long" would not last long enough to be identified as MMAers. They're currently lost?

Wow.

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
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Old 04-17-2007, 05:41 AM   #79
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Re: MMA as catalyst for change in Aikido?

I agree, this whole MMA is a fad thing is getting old. It is not a fad, it hasn't been a fad for the last 10 years of growth. It is here to stay, it is now a growing part of American culture. Accept it and move on. It is more popular then a lot of bread and butter American sports.

MMA is not about jumping from art to art, learning a few things then trying to put it all together. It is a systematic approach to learning the most efficient way to disable someone within the confines of the ring. It is fun, it is healthy, it is safe, and most of the people in it don't even realize or care that they are training in martial arts. Just like boxers don't realize boxing is a martial art.

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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Old 04-17-2007, 08:30 AM   #80
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Re: MMA as catalyst for change in Aikido?

Quote:
Don Magee wrote: View Post
I agree, this whole MMA is a fad thing is getting old. It is not a fad, it hasn't been a fad for the last 10 years of growth. It is here to stay, it is now a growing part of American culture. Accept it and move on. It is more popular then a lot of bread and butter American sports.

MMA is not about jumping from art to art, learning a few things then trying to put it all together. It is a systematic approach to learning the most efficient way to disable someone within the confines of the ring. It is fun, it is healthy, it is safe, and most of the people in it don't even realize or care that they are training in martial arts. Just like boxers don't realize boxing is a martial art.
At 46 I still am having fun with it and it is a great help in understanding our Aikido.

William Hazen
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Old 04-17-2007, 08:33 AM   #81
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Re: very interesting thus far!

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Paul Sanderson-Cimino wrote: View Post
I will continue looking, then. I'm glad (albeit surprised) to hear that the footage is out there.

My real motive might take a moment to explain. I agree with much of how Larry has described it. I like to use the omote/ura explanation; I think the ura of aikido (greater awareness and sensitivity, interpersonal understanding, balance, etc.) to be far more valuable for most people in today's world than the omote (throwing and pinning people). But I don't think you can separate them, or say something like, "Hmm, today, I'm going to practice 20% omote, and 80% ura." As a result, I feel it important to investigate the application of aikido in various martial contexts, to better understand what sort of omote goals we might be striving for. Karate's omote might be hitting hard or with good timing; judo's omote might be throwing someone from a hands-on-shoulders range. Aikido's seems to be trapping at a bit farther than judo range, but it's not entirely clear what sort of context (e.g. attacks) this trapping is meant to happen with regard to.

So that's my motive, if that makes sense - trying to be sincere about my practice, lest I start trying to reap rewards without also doing "the hard part". If Ueshiba-sensei had come from a background of tea ceremony and dance, an "aikido" still might have developed, but it would not have the unique beauty that only a martial art can have.
Thanks Paul for clarifying your motives and I now completely understand where you're coming from. A man after my own heart.

William Hazen
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Old 04-17-2007, 01:11 PM   #82
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Re: MMA as catalyst for change in Aikido?

I am Turning 42 soon and doing MMA don't see me quitting anytime soon. I touch gloves regularly with 20 and 30 somethings, no issues, albeit I am a little slower...but overcome that with skill and wisdom I hope!

Randy Couture? 43 years old? Current UFC champ.

MMA harsh on the body? Not in my experiences, less so than Aikido actually I think. I have had fewer injuries and less back and knee pain from MMA type training than from aikido.

MMA as a professional venue? is not going anywhere except up.

Don't believe it, look at the success of Ultimate Fighter and the history of the UFC as a money making organization...they are just getting going and finally getting into the big money.

It is finally entering into the league of boxing. I hope the corruption doesn't follow it, but probably hard to avoid with big money.

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Old 04-17-2007, 07:45 PM   #83
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Re: MMA as catalyst for change in Aikido?

I say it is a fad, but something being a fad doesn't necessarily mean it is 'bad', just that it is popular for now, hyped up, etc.

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Old 04-18-2007, 04:42 AM   #84
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Re: MMA as catalyst for change in Aikido?

a fad that has lasted in excess of 10 years? How long does it need to keep growing before it stops being a fad and starts being a trend?

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
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Old 04-18-2007, 07:28 AM   #85
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Re: MMA as catalyst for change in Aikido?

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Michael Fooks wrote: View Post
a fad that has lasted in excess of 10 years? How long does it need to keep growing before it stops being a fad and starts being a trend?
With due respect it hasn't been in excess of 10 years. When the original UFC started in the early 90's there was a lot of buzz around it that lasted until maybe 95 or 96. The scene then went down hill and quickly. in the early 2000's just before Zuffa bought the UFC, it was almost bankrupt and very very few people spoke about MMA (in that context). It has only been since Zuffa bought and reinvented the UFC (by putting stricter rules in place to allow it to get sanctioned in various states) that the popularity of the UFC and MMA has grown.
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Old 04-18-2007, 07:53 AM   #86
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Re: MMA as catalyst for change in Aikido?

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Michael Fooks wrote: View Post
a fad that has lasted in excess of 10 years? How long does it need to keep growing before it stops being a fad and starts being a trend?
It is still pretty much confined to one venue, one network, one demographic, and still has a pro-rasslin' feel to it with all the hype.

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"Let your weight from the crotch area BE in his hands."
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Old 04-18-2007, 08:08 AM   #87
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Re: MMA as catalyst for change in Aikido?

Can we please steer the discussion back to the relationship between mixed martial arts and aikido?

Thanks,

-- Jun

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Old 04-18-2007, 08:56 AM   #88
Paul Sanderson-Cimino
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Re: MMA as catalyst for change in Aikido?

One thing that continues to go through my mind are ryokatamochi techniques. I'm starting to get a better idea of what good fighters actually -do- with that general type of grip, in terms of judo or whatever.

What about the intersection between judo and aikido? I'm currently trying to explore the possibilities of executing aikido-type tai sabaki/waza versus someone entering in to establish a hands-on-shoulders grappling situation. I feel like this is one case where MMA context might help "liven up" aikido's approach - i.e., "They're not just grabbing your shoulders for fun; they plan to do something with it."
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Old 04-18-2007, 09:24 AM   #89
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Re: MMA as catalyst for change in Aikido?

Quote:
Jun Akiyama wrote: View Post
Can we please steer the discussion back to the relationship between mixed martial arts and aikido?

Thanks,

-- Jun
Aikido has almost always had cross-trainers from other martial arts and it hasn't watered down or fundamentally altered Aikido. Many folks on this discussion board cross-train (I do). If anything, I think that cross-training is a good thing and keeps Aikido "real."

However, the whole MMA juggernaut does pose a problem for Aikido in my opinion. That is, the very essence of the MMA is competition and thus, by design it utilizes only those techniques that are found to be most effective & efficient in competition. Anything that doesn't help you win is rejected. This is its underlying philosophy...a very pragmatic one at that.

When the MMA is enthroned by the omnipresent media-entertainment industry as the paragon of the martial arts in America (which it already is and will continue to until the gravy train ends), it does cause a "ripple effect" in popular culture....particularly for younger generations who are raised on cable TV and the internet and are sold on the idea that the MMA is "it" because that's who's utilizing the marketing.

The problem? As the MMA philosophy begins to take root and is established as the popular criteria by which to evaluate a martial art (e.g. "does it work in the ring?" and "why do I have to waste time learning all these other techniques when they won't help me win?"), Aikido will suffer because of its traditional approach to instruction as well as because of its extensive & complex curriculum.

So, how will Aikido change in the 2010's & 20's...post-Baby Boom Aikido? How will it attract folks who are raised to believe the MMA philosophy? The MMA as we know it now will die down in hype and become as American Pie as boxing...but it's pragmatic philosophy is going to take deep root.
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Old 04-18-2007, 10:09 AM   #90
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Re: MMA as catalyst for change in Aikido?

Quote:
Brian Dewey wrote: View Post
However, the whole MMA juggernaut does pose a problem for Aikido in my opinion. That is, the very essence of the MMA is competition and thus, by design it utilizes only those techniques that are found to be most effective & efficient in competition. Anything that doesn't help you win is rejected. This is its underlying philosophy...a very pragmatic one at that.
I think I see the point you are making, but I'd disagree.

MMA is mixed martial arts, and while some people who train mma do compete, the vast majority do not. While I would agree that mma does have it's own paradigms as to what an effective technique is, I don't think that translates into a "win".

Quote:
Brian Dewey wrote: View Post
The problem? As the MMA philosophy begins to take root and is established as the popular criteria by which to evaluate a martial art (e.g. "does it work in the ring?" and "why do I have to waste time learning all these other techniques when they won't help me win?"), Aikido will suffer because of its traditional approach to instruction as well as because of its extensive & complex curriculum.

So, how will Aikido change in the 2010's & 20's...post-Baby Boom Aikido? How will it attract folks who are raised to believe the MMA philosophy?
Well, first off, I don't think that mma's philosophy cannot be reconciled with aikido. It seems to me there are several people on this forum who indeed train both. Personally, I don't see much (if any difference) between mma's philosophy and Tomiki aikido --- as effectiveness in mma is determined in an alive environment, which as I understand it, is what Tomiki aikido provides --- but I'll confess to a degree of ignorance on Tomiki's philosophy.

I'm also not sure that aikido's cirriculum is more extensive and complex than mma, and honestly, if it's true or not I don't see what the issue would be.

There seems to be an undercurrent of talking about mma as though it has a unified cirriculum and such. While there are some mma gyms/dojos/training centers around the country, it seems to me that most folks who compete mix the arts on their own. That is to say, they box/kickbox at one location with one group of instructors, then wrestle at another location with an entirely different group, and so on. So on the face of it, I don't see why aikido would be in more danger from mma as far as losing students goes, than aikido currently is in danger (and frankly, I don't think it is) from existing boxing gyms, wrestling clubs, etc.....

Regards,

Paul
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Old 04-18-2007, 10:13 AM   #91
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Re: MMA as catalyst for change in Aikido?

What you must understand it that-
A/ MMA came from original and "classical" martial arts with a few adaptations-
B/ the ring is not a realistic fighting environment per say- with two competitors that have rules that know who they will be fighting potentially weeks in advance,
C/ Aikido has never been hugely popular and probably never will be.

Aikido will always attract the same type of people- and the natural process of aikido, endless training and devotion to a set principle or technique is environment for boredom. That is how it was designed. Through repetition we better ourselves and filter out those who would never have cut it in the first place (the impatient and the unrealistic individuals). Why would you train in one art that takes devotion and skill to practice, when you can go to the university ju-jitsu team and get "a free can of whoop ass after 20 sessions"?
I have difficulty seeing that aikido will have a recruitment problem as we will always be able to take students out of other martial arts.

If and when aikidoka get invited to attend other dojo's or other martial arts events (I.E regional competition, nationals or whatever) the quality stands out by leagues. Those who have their "can of whoopass" soon get their lesson as they are often bested by an aikidoka that, if direct grade translation was possible, is probably far lower in grade than them.
As such, people start to notice you and ask about your art.

Aikido has never been set up to attract a mass population of spectators or visitors to a dojo. If it were, we would have a setup place for visitors on each class or in the dojo line setup. As there is not one in 90% of dojo's out there- it is a fair assumption that many dojo do not expect visitors.

The argument that classic martial arts are ineffective is laughable. The most traumatic time periods in Japan- the CQC system of choice was old style ju-jitsu which is by very definition a classic martial art. What we would call samurai- and professional soldier relied upon jujitsu and its derivatives to keep them alive in battle when everything went wrong. I would imagine that in a pitched battle- things would go wrong quite often.

When posed with the question of "does it help you win"? My answer would be to ask for a definition of winning. It's flexible for many MMA societies working on combo points and submissions. Winning in classical martial arts is being able to walk away from a situation, Unharmed- no matter how it was resolved. If it got dirty and a fight broke out- the same definition applies. If you talk it out and go separate ways, the same definition applies.
Ultimately- I don't believe that MMA poses a risk to aikido growth, as MMA people are quite often not suited to aikido life- wanting something faster, simpler and with the possibility of fast progression.


Good against remotes are one thing- good against the living, thats somthing else....
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Old 04-18-2007, 10:34 AM   #92
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Re: MMA as catalyst for change in Aikido?

I think a lot of the people here on Aikiweb and Aikido practitioners in general have a very limited and ignorant understanding of MMA. People seem to have lots of notions and ideas in their heads about how it works from what little they've seen on TV combined with whatever training they have at the dojo. I think it would benefit people who have some sort of fears or issues with MMA in regards to how it relates to Aikido, to just go to a MMA/BJJ gym. Stop theorizing about it and trying to work it out in your head how it works and just go to a gym. They're not going to bite you.

Keith Lee
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Old 04-18-2007, 11:03 AM   #93
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Re: MMA as catalyst for change in Aikido?

Quote:
Paul Watt wrote: View Post
MMA is mixed martial arts, and while some people who train mma do compete, the vast majority do not. While I would agree that mma does have it's own paradigms as to what an effective technique is, I don't think that translates into a "win"....

There seems to be an undercurrent of talking about mma as though it has a unified cirriculum and such. While there are some mma gyms/dojos/training centers around the country, it seems to me that most folks who compete mix the arts on their own. That is to say, they box/kickbox at one location with one group of instructors, then wrestle at another location with an entirely different group, and so on. So on the face of it, I don't see why aikido would be in more danger from mma as far as losing students goes, than aikido currently is in danger (and frankly, I don't think it is) from existing boxing gyms, wrestling clubs, etc.....
Thanks for your perspective, it helps me clarify what I was trying to articulate in previous posts. What I have in my mind when I use the "MMA" moniker is the competitive MMA...sportsfighters, particularly the UFC and other sportsfighting organizations (either pro or amateur) and their events...with all of the theatrics, machismo and such. Even more nausiating, their legions of puerile devotees who give the MMA a bad name. As you describe it, then I have no problem with the MMA...I suppose that's what I would classify as a "cross-trainer."

Quote:
Richard Player wrote: View Post
Ultimately- I don't believe that MMA poses a risk to aikido growth, as MMA people are quite often not suited to aikido life- wanting something faster, simpler and with the possibility of fast progression.
Per my comment above, yes, I'd agree...the sportsfighters looking for ways to "improve their stand-up game" and the UFC "wannabes" will mostly likely pass on Aikido. No tears shed here....
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Old 04-18-2007, 11:05 AM   #94
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Re: MMA as catalyst for change in Aikido?

Quote:
MMA people are quite often not suited to aikido life- wanting something faster, simpler and with the possibility of fast progression.
emphasis mine.

I agree most MMA people are not suited for aikido. Their goals do not match. Most are not even interested in the martial arts. I agree there can be a fast progression, you can apply what you learn very quickly and effectively. However I can not agree it is simpler. The depth of MMA can and does include most techniques from bjj, judo, boxing, MT, wrestling, etc. These guys are basically putting together their own version of what japanese would call jiujitsu. A system of striking, throws, chokes, and joint locks. Sounds like every jiujitsu I've ever taken. To think aikido is any more in depth than this is ridiculous. Beyond techniques, each has its own complications. Just like judo has unique complications that bjj doesn't have and vice versa. You can't say judo is for people who want something simpler then japanese juijitsu. It is simply a lie. They are both very complicated in their own ways. A jiujitsu guy is going to be learning a lot of complicated movements, and required to learn more techniques then a judo guy. A judo guy is going to be learning to control from a clinch, grip fight, and modify throws in an alive environment. Each has its own complications. No one can really say which is harder or more complicated.

Of course I look at things that are faster and easier to learn but still effective an advantage not a disadvantage.

Quote:
There is only one venue and demographic for MMA and its like pro wrestling?
I take it you don't have local MMA events, you havn't seen the tons of pro mma venues that are out there, king of the cage, UFC, Pride, the japan shoot variants, Pancrase, IFL, Bodog, I can go on and on. In my town we sell out the largest venue in town every month. We are 1 of a few places putting on MMA shows in town.

Quote:
he ring is not a realistic fighting environment per say- with two competitors that have rules that know who they will be fighting potentially weeks in advance,
True and false. Most amateur MMA fighters don't really know who they will be fighting. They know the weight class, they show up to the event and get paired up. It isn't until you get good that fights start getting put together and you start scouting your opponents.
As for the ring not being realistic, this is another tool people use to talk down MMA. They say this without also pointing out their method of practice is just as unrealistic, if not more unrealistic.

Quote:
I think a lot of the people here on Aikiweb and Aikido practitioners in general have a very limited and ignorant understanding of MMA. People seem to have lots of notions and ideas in their heads about how it works from what little they've seen on TV combined with whatever training they have at the dojo. I think it would benefit people who have some sort of fears or issues with MMA in regards to how it relates to Aikido, to just go to a MMA/BJJ gym. Stop theorizing about it and trying to work it out in your head how it works and just go to a gym. They're not going to bite you.
I agree 100%. The problem is most people do not actually care if MMA is better or aikido is better, or boxing is better, or kungfu is better. Instead they are trying to justify why they do what they do by convincing themselves what they do is better. If they actually understood why they were training they wouldn't be so apprehensive and they would admit the weaknesses and defend the strengths of their training. Instead, they discount entire areas of study as fads, or simpler, or barbarism, etc. MMA may not have value to why you train, but that doesn't mean it is any worse then what you do. It could even be better then what you do for some things, but if those are not the reason you train, you should be ok with admitting that.

Now I have a question, before MMA did we have threads on if boxing would overtake aikido? You should regard MMA the same way as boxing, kickboxing, Mauy thai, wrestling, judo, and bjj. If you have doubts about one, you should have doubts about all of them. It is not sport to worry about, it is the training method.

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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Old 04-18-2007, 11:23 AM   #95
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Re: MMA as catalyst for change in Aikido?

Honestly, I don't see MMA as a threat to the longevity of Aikido. Truth be told, I see it as more of a threat to other competition-oriented arts and other hybrid styles. Yes, it's popular with the young crowd right now, but these are the same people that in the absence of MMA would be pursuing different styles anyway. Think about it - if MMA didnt exist, and generally I think we can all remember a time when it wasn't really on the radar, what arts would be attracting the students who are attracted by MMA? The students who are looking for a multidisciplinary approach would have sought out ninjitsu, kempo, and the like. Those who are searching for the competitive experience would have gravitated to muay thai, judo, TKD, etc. But in general, these students would likely have never walked into our dojos at this time in their lives anyway.

Notice the "at this time in their lives." While I certainly don't have the statistics to back it up, a good many of the aikidoka that I know have done other things. Personally, I did a hybrid judo/jujitsu/kung fu/aikido thing. What draws us to aikido is not necessarily the brutal effectiveness of it (although the law enforcement officers that I know who practice aikido say that it is very street effective). Rather we are drawn by the focus on the whole self, the uniting of spirit mind and body, the mindset of peace and love that O-Sensei passed to us. There are, and will always be, those like us who will train in MMA and find that it doesn't meet their needs, especially as they mature. Not because they cant handle MMA practice as they age, but because their life experiences and world weariness drive them to seek a different way of life.

Just my humble opinion,
Lori

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Old 04-18-2007, 01:11 PM   #96
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Re: MMA as catalyst for change in Aikido?

Why is it that many sometimes make the assumption that "classical jiujitsu"as practiced by japanese warriors of "old", was practiced as we practice it today as in arts such as aikido, aikijujitsu, daito ryu, or any number of the koryu arts. Certainly there are many components including the core curriculm that was taught, but most budo arts probably are very distilled and focused versions of what was originally practiced.

Why could they have not been practiced much like MMA type arts today? With many of the aliveness components there to include competitions. I would think this is highly likely.

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Old 04-18-2007, 01:12 PM   #97
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Re: MMA as catalyst for change in Aikido?

Obviously there was competition in jiujitsu. That's how judo became popular, by wining a jiujitsu tournament.

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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Old 04-18-2007, 02:15 PM   #98
Demetrio Cereijo
Join Date: Nov 2004
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Re: MMA as catalyst for change in Aikido?

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
With many of the aliveness components there to include competitions. I would think this is highly likely.
Quote:
In 1682, a collection of illustrations sketched by Hishikawa Moronobu titled Chiyo no Tomozuru depicts two young warriors wielding safety-tipped yari (spear) engaged in a contest with another young warrior equipped with men, do-tare, and a naginata.
Source:http://www.kendo-world.com/articles/...bogu/index.php

Interesting article about the developement of protective equipement for budo practise in Japan.

What could be the need for protective equipement if not "alive" training?

Last edited by Demetrio Cereijo : 04-18-2007 at 02:24 PM.

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Old 04-18-2007, 02:29 PM   #99
Paul Sanderson-Cimino
Dojo: Yoshokai; looking into judo
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Re: MMA as catalyst for change in Aikido?

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Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
Why could they have not been practiced much like MMA type arts today? With many of the aliveness components there to include competitions. I would think this is highly likely.
In fact, upon reading Ellis Amdur's "Old School" recently (good book), it occurs to me that modern koryu practitioners also use "alive" training. For instance, if I recall rightly, he talks about having freestyle grappling as part of training sessions.
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Old 04-18-2007, 10:37 PM   #100
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: MMA as catalyst for change in Aikido?

Yes, I am sure there are schools out there that do add elements of aliveness and freestyle grapppling.

Back to the original question, MMA as a catalyst for change in aikido...

assumes that aikido, in general, needs to change, or will be changed by MMA.

One assumption this question poses (the main one I believe) is that aikido as practiced by the general population is incorrect or "missing" something that MMA has to offer that is vital.

If the original arts had these components and ways of training, if modern Koryu has these things, if modern Gendai arts also have them, Judo being pretty much developed at the same time.....AND we have much documentation to say that much of this was intentionally left out by the founder and continues to be left out by his senior students/uchi deshi......

Maybe they were not as ignorant, blind, or as clueless, as the question or assumption that MMA is a catalyst for change in aikido assumes!

Possibly there is very good reason for it!

What is also possible, if you look at the many threads and discussions concerning internal martial arts is that the following two conditions might exist.

1. Some teachers may not understand aliveness and have enough skill to be able to intentionally teach around it, correctly isolating principles without losing the tactical presence (bunkai) that is associated with the practice of aikido.

2. Some Aikido students really do not have an appreciation or understanding of the purpose and intent of aikido, the principles being taught, and the tactical applicaiton (bunkai), and how it may be applied, (or not), as the case may be. That is, "we are trying to beat a round peg into a square hole"....trying to turn or make aikido into something it was never designed to do!

Short version:

Go study MMA if that is what you want to do. Study aikido (good aikido) for what aikido can teach you about aikido!

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