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Old 04-13-2007, 11:47 AM   #126
Thomas Campbell
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Re: The internal 'how to' thread... let's hope

Quote:
Pete Rihaczek wrote: View Post
[snip]

For example, here's a 94 year old Bagua practitioner apparently discussing such things with family members:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KZdtM5p6ZkA

Yes, he is going to be in UFC 75 "Geezer Throwdown", in the open weight class wheelchair division. Sorry, had to throw one out for the 12 year olds in the audience. In the last bit in particular he seems to be explaining how he receives force and uses the ground to return it. To the uneducated eye it may look like nonsense and they'll move on. But he is showing how he can take balance as soon as he is grabbed, and there is virtually no visible outward movement. That's not a necessary condition, but it makes the point. I can't do that, though I know of people who can. Unless you feel yourself what he's doing, you're not sure why anybody would lose his balance from grabbing him when you don't see him do anything. It's all the same general skill. Could Ueshiba take someone's balance as soon as they touched him? I think so, if you believe the stories. And why not, since there are people you can go see, like CXW, who can easily show you this in person. [snip]
Chen Xiaowang is an outstanding exponent of Chenshi taijiquan, with powerful fajin. But I have not seen any video footage of CXW demonstrating an ability to "take someone's balance as soon as they touched him." I didn't feel that particular ability when I met CXW, nor did he demonstrate it. But I only had very limited time with him, so I'd be curious to hear from others with more extensive exposure to CXW, as to whether he could "take someone's balance as soon as they touched him." I have felt a few people with that ability/skill, and it's a unique and very disorienting experience.
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Old 04-13-2007, 12:25 PM   #127
Franco
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Re: The internal 'how to' thread... let's hope

I wonder if Chen Xiaowang knows that there are people that call him CXW?
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Old 04-13-2007, 01:33 PM   #128
Thomas Campbell
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Re: The internal 'how to' thread... let's hope

I wonder if CXW knows there are people that call him Chen Xiaowang. ;-)

Use of their initials to refer to high-profile practitioners and teachers in the Chinese martial arts is common on Internet forums. No disrespect is conveyed.
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Old 04-13-2007, 01:33 PM   #129
Cady Goldfield
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Re: The internal 'how to' thread... let's hope

Quote:
Franco Cuminato wrote: View Post
I wonder if Chen Xiaowang knows that there are people that call him CXW?
Since even Chinese dtz (kanji) have been modified to simpler forms with fewer lines and brushstrokes, for convenience, I think he might forgive similar shorthand or abbreviation in the Romanized alphabet. Similarly, there haven't yet been any celestial rumblings over the Western use of Xmas (which, I believe, has been used for centuries) and other words referring to Very Important People.

Last edited by Cady Goldfield : 04-13-2007 at 01:37 PM.
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Old 04-13-2007, 04:56 PM   #130
G DiPierro
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Re: The internal 'how to' thread... let's hope

Quote:
Thomas Campbell wrote: View Post
Chen Xiaowang is an outstanding exponent of Chenshi taijiquan, with powerful fajin. But I have not seen any video footage of CXW demonstrating an ability to "take someone's balance as soon as they touched him."
Here is a clip of CXW demonstrating a technique that is commonly practiced in aikido. I don't see him taking his partner's balance in a manner that is different from what you would find in almost any aikido dojo. In only one instance could you even say that he is taking balance on first touch, and only then by grabbing the arm and pulling it, the same way a lot of people like to do in aikido. The rest of the time he is not doing anything at all to disrupt balance on contact.
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Old 04-13-2007, 07:08 PM   #131
Gernot Hassenpflug
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Re: The internal 'how to' thread... let's hope

Quote:
Giancarlo DiPierro wrote: View Post
Here is a clip of CXW demonstrating a technique that is commonly practiced in aikido. I don't see him taking his partner's balance in a manner that is different from what you would find in almost any aikido dojo. In only one instance could you even say that he is taking balance on first touch, and only then by grabbing the arm and pulling it, the same way a lot of people like to do in aikido. The rest of the time he is not doing anything at all to disrupt balance on contact.
I think you should put your sentences in perspective with "I don' t see...."
It's a given that the position of the arms/feet are not giving away what is happening along the connecting lines of the body. But if you look at how CXW clasps his hands in front of his chest, does the elbow strikes backwards, or the driving forward downward elbow in the push hands, and I think you can get a glimpse of where the power is coming from, and what is always present regardless of what the limb extremities seem to be doing. From my experience (not with CXW I admit), it wouldn't matter what part of his body made contact with the partner. And if you touched him, I bet you'd rapidly revise the related ideas of "external shape" and "relaxed".

Another point to consider: it's a photo shoot, so is CXW going to give away secrets at such an occasion. Think about it. And he's quite well helped by the fact that he knows people will see what they want to see. He doesn't have to try very hard to hide what he does!

Last edited by Gernot Hassenpflug : 04-13-2007 at 07:11 PM.
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Old 04-13-2007, 07:19 PM   #132
Mike Sigman
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Re: The internal 'how to' thread... let's hope

Well, in reality, anyone can see that CXW is teaching a bunch of beginners how the external technique works, not demonstrating "here's how to use high-level jin to overpower your opponent". As I've suggested a number of times, people should just go visit. Tell CXW that you can put a kotegaeshi on him... he'll let you try, no problem.

Regards,

Mike Sigman
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Old 04-13-2007, 07:52 PM   #133
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Re: The internal 'how to' thread... let's hope

I'd bet that if it were a bunch of aikido people rationalizing the performance of some well-known aikido teacher you guys would be up in arms about how people are just blindly defending the hierarchy and the status quo. But when it is a teacher that you respect all of a sudden legitimate criticism is not acceptable and is responded to with the same kind of straw-man arguments that are so typical of debate on martial arts forums. Sorry, I'm just not interested in another one of those discussions. If someone wants to discuss the things I actually said in my post that would be a different matter.

-G DiPierro
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Old 04-13-2007, 08:19 PM   #134
Cady Goldfield
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Re: The internal 'how to' thread... let's hope

Maybe they just are able to see something there that you are unable to see because you've had no prior exposure to the internal skills CXW is using, Giancarlo.
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Old 04-13-2007, 08:28 PM   #135
Mike Sigman
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Re: The internal 'how to' thread... let's hope

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Giancarlo DiPierro wrote: View Post
I'd bet that if it were a bunch of aikido people rationalizing the performance of some well-known aikido teacher ...
I'm not sure what the point is. You can hear from the "audience" that he's trying to explain on a superficial basis what the basic technique is. He's not even doing a demonstration of Taiji. All I'm saying is that your comments have nothing to do with the situation being shown.

Mike Sigman
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Old 04-13-2007, 08:54 PM   #136
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Re: The internal 'how to' thread... let's hope

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Maybe they just are able to see something there that you are unable to see because you've had no prior exposure to the internal skills CXW is using, Giancarlo.
What is it that you think they see that I do not? All I said was that I did not see CXW taking balance on contact in that clip. As far as I can tell, neither Mike nor Gernot have said that I am wrong about that. In fact, they both seemed to be acknowledging that this clip was not a good demonstration of taking balance but rationalizing that fact by saying that he was hiding his skill or just teaching beginners. I have my own opinion of those possibilities but I don't see much point in debating them. Perhaps someone else has a better clip that they think shows him taking balance on contact. If so, then why not just post it without all of the fanfare?
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Old 04-13-2007, 09:06 PM   #137
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Re: The internal 'how to' thread... let's hope

Quote:
Giancarlo DiPierro wrote: View Post
Here is a clip of CXW demonstrating a technique that is commonly practiced in aikido. I don't see him taking his partner's balance in a manner that is different from what you would find in almost any aikido dojo. In only one instance could you even say that he is taking balance on first touch, and only then by grabbing the arm and pulling it, the same way a lot of people like to do in aikido. The rest of the time he is not doing anything at all to disrupt balance on contact.
Tell you the truth I don't see the point your getting at. To me it is obvious that CXW is only demonstrating a basic joint lock not the actions needed to break an opponents balance (outside of the joint lock). In other words the point of the demo is the joint lock itself nothing else.

Tim Anderson
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Old 04-13-2007, 09:23 PM   #138
Cady Goldfield
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Re: The internal 'how to' thread... let's hope

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What is it that you think they see that I do not? All I said was that I did not see CXW taking balance on contact in that clip. As far as I can tell, neither Mike nor Gernot have said that I am wrong about that. In fact, they both seemed to be acknowledging that this clip was not a good demonstration of taking balance but rationalizing that fact by saying that he was hiding his skill or just teaching beginners. I have my own opinion of those possibilities but I don't see much point in debating them. Perhaps someone else has a better clip that they think shows him taking balance on contact. If so, then why not just post it without all of the fanfare?
I didn't word that quite as I meant it. What I'm saying is it doesn't sound to me like anyone is "trying to defend" CXW or make excuses. If they have seen what CXW does in his internal movements, and know what that would consist of to the knowing observer, then they are qualified to note that this clip is a poor example of such.

I'd give creedence to their suggestion that he is demonstrating a basic application to beginners in that particular lesson. Why would you have a problem with that? Do you think that all clips on YouTube are supposed to be profound?
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Old 04-13-2007, 09:42 PM   #139
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Re: The internal 'how to' thread... let's hope

CXW's video is decent, but it would be better if he'd do similar things without cues from the attacker, in more of a live environment.

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Old 04-13-2007, 10:18 PM   #140
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Re: The internal 'how to' thread... let's hope

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Cady Goldfield wrote: View Post
I didn't word that quite as I meant it. What I'm saying is it doesn't sound to me like anyone is "trying to defend" CXW or make excuses. If they have seen what CXW does in his internal movements, and know what that would consist of to the knowing observer, then they are qualified to note that this clip is a poor example of such.
I'm not commenting on his internal skill in general only the specific issue of taking balance on contact. If you go back you'll see that the original reason I posted the clip is because someone made the following two statements:

Quote:
I think the existence of things like kokyo-tanden-ho in Aikido is a rather powerful indicator that you are supposed to be able to do exactly what the old Bagua guy is showing: taking the other person's balance without "blending" with some large movement like you're bullfighting, without grabbing and twisting anything on the other guy to control him, without any perceptible effort or movement. End of story. If you can't do that in every technique, if you can't immediately make anyone grabbing a hold of you lose their balance without outwardly seeming to do much of anything, consider the possibility that you don't really understand Aikido no matter what your rank is.
and

Quote:
Could Ueshiba take someone's balance as soon as they touched him? I think so, if you believe the stories. And why not, since there are people you can go see, like CXW, who can easily show you this in person. Are there 57 totally different ways to do this? Very doubtful, it's one general skillset, the level is just a matter of the degree of skill and body integration.
Now maybe CXW can "easily show you this in person," but he certainly does not do it in this video clip. On the other hand, there are people in aikido who can and do demonstrate this in person and on video, and I have felt some of them myself, although I will say that the idea that there is a person who can make anyone lose balance on contact is pure fantasy. It's all a matter of relative skill level.

In any case, it would have been a lot different if people had just said "yeah that's a bad clip of CXW, here's a better one" rather than trotting out the worn-out "once you touch him then you'll be a believer" lines that you always hear on martial arts forums. Actually if you watch closely you'll note there's one time he does the technique at more or less full speed, so I'd be surprised if his movement in other clips or in person would look much different from that.
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Old 04-13-2007, 11:11 PM   #141
Gernot Hassenpflug
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Re: The internal 'how to' thread... let's hope

I was not criticizing anyone's ideas, but trying to add my own. So here's a clear clip of some explanations of 6-direction power and taking balance as a result of that:

http://bluedot.us/users/wujimon/tag/cxw
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Old 04-14-2007, 07:56 AM   #142
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Re: The internal 'how to' thread... let's hope

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Gernot Hassenpflug wrote: View Post
I was not criticizing anyone's ideas, but trying to add my own. So here's a clear clip of some explanations of 6-direction power and taking balance as a result of that:

http://bluedot.us/users/wujimon/tag/cxw
Interestingly, in the first video from the above link Chen Xiao Wang stops the guy and points out a void in his form. He then makes some minor adjustments to it. Essentially a Tohei style ki-test but with less physical feedback for his student to feel his mistake. I'm not saying by this that CXW's method is not as good as Tohei's, just a different approach to teaching the same skill. This video is of course only one example so I'm not intending to comment on the broader differences either.

In a similar situation. If I had noticed something like this in one of my students I would have told them where it was and tried to give them as much physical feedback as possible so that they understood the difference between the correct and incorrect feeling. This is what Tohei style ki-tests are intended to do. People seem to have some bizarre ideas about ki-tests and what their point and purpose is. I doubt that they are really all that different from the methods used by CXW or any other teacher of this stuff. I personally prefer them but that's just me, I suspect that as people tend to have different learning styles they may not be suited to everybody. What I do know is that, a number of people around here have held up CXW as an example of these internal skills, they have also said that Ueshiba had them and so did Tohei. My teacher has trained with Koichi Tohei and also with Koichi Tohei's students and says that Tohei has definitely passed his abilities on, I conclude therefore that Tohei's methods work. Maybe they don't work for everyone but they can't be said to be ineffectual. Where I get confused is where people make some strange leap of logic and start saying that Tohei's students aren't doing what he does, when it is quite obvious that they are. The only issue I can see with this is that if you wanted to say that Tohei's skills are a different but related skillset to those of Ueshiba. In which case Tohei has not passed on 'Ueshiba's aikido', but rather 'Tohei's aikido'. I wouldn't argue with this point, Tohei himself said he only kept maybe 30% of the techniques. The interesting question then becomes: What are the differences between Tohei's internal skills and those of Ueshiba? I suspect that Ueshiba's are more in line with some of the things that Mike Sigman discusses and teaches. I do not see these two things as better or worse, just different. If Mike feels like commenting then I think that'd be an interesting discussion I think. My own feeling is that the main difference is fa-jin. To release power like that I think involves an interplay between deliberately held internal tension and the relaxation of muscles groups (I think Rob has covered some of this stuff as well as Mike). In Tohei's teaching such tension is considered bad. The second basic principle is 'relax completely', if you watch film of CXW and Ueshiba you can usually see that they aren't 'relaxed completely', they are releasing power by holding some parts of themselves in tension and releasing this tension at the appropriate moment. Best example I can think of is one I've mentioned elsewhere where if you watch film of Ueshiba doing the rowing exercise whilst partnered with Terry Dobson and then watch Tohei do the same thing, Tohei isn't releasing the power in the same way.

Being that I come from a Tohei style background I don't properly understand how this sort of power release is done, but my view has always been that it shouldn't be done and that correct execution of aikido waza doesn't necessarily require it, though perhaps I should qualify that with Tohei aikido waza. I can do it in small approximations but nothing hugely spectacular. Like I said I don't think that the differences between the approaches make one better or worse than the other, just different. They are related skills IMO. I suspect that Mike Sigman's view is that the Ki Society aren't going far enough because they don't actively teach these things. My view is that they don't really need to and they focus instead on other aspects of these skills.

Think of it like this. Take the skills discussed in the baseline skill thread. Once you have those baseline skills you can either start adding things to them like power release (fa-jin) and what have you, or you can go in a slightly different direction where you develop the baseline skills of relaxation and stability until they aren't baseline anymore but are actually very very advanced versions of the baseline relaxation and centering skills. I think the latter is more in line with Ki Soc internal skills, and I also think that a lot of the CMA internal guys misunderstand that and ask things like 'yeah but where's the fa-jin? That's just basic stuff'. It's not just basic stuff, it's basic stuff taken in a different direction and with different emphasis. It's done like that because it is designed to work with the aikido waza and be in accord with them. Is it Ueshiba's aiki? Not really, not totally in any case, but it's pretty much the closest you're likely to get from anyone who was a student of Ueshiba. If you want the other 70% of what Tohei left out then you'll have to go looking at aikido's roots, Daito Ryu and some of the other things he studied, but I personally don't think that makes what you'd be doing any more aikido than if you didn't do that.

Regards

Mike

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Old 04-14-2007, 12:17 PM   #143
Thomas Campbell
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Re: The internal 'how to' thread... let's hope

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[snip]As I've suggested a number of times, people should just go visit. Tell CXW that you can put a kotegaeshi on him... he'll let you try, no problem.
That is a good idea.

Chen Xiaowang's 2007 US Tour

1. Sept 1+2 San Francisco amarapetals@hotmail.com

2. Sept 7-10 San Luis Obispo liuyuwtc@aol.com

3. Sept 14-17 San Diego tao@taoistsanctuary.org

4. Sept 20-24 Seattle kim@embracethemoon.com

5. Sept 28-30 Chicago aloria@uchicago.edu

6. Oct 6+7 NYC taiji@renguangyi.net

7. Oct 10-14 Miami cbii@mac.com

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Old 04-14-2007, 01:50 PM   #144
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Re: The internal 'how to' thread... let's hope

Re: kotegaeshi on Chen Xiaowang, I'm curious what it actually would mean in terms of his martial skill, if you tell him in advance the exact technique you are going to attempt on him.

Free sparring with limited parameters would avoid these problems.

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Old 04-14-2007, 03:02 PM   #145
Mike Sigman
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Re: The internal 'how to' thread... let's hope

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I suspect that Ueshiba's are more in line with some of the things that Mike Sigman discusses and teaches. I do not see these two things as better or worse, just different. If Mike feels like commenting then I think that'd be an interesting discussion I think. My own feeling is that the main difference is fa-jin. To release power like that I think involves an interplay between deliberately held internal tension and the relaxation of muscles groups (I think Rob has covered some of this stuff as well as Mike). In Tohei's teaching such tension is considered bad. The second basic principle is 'relax completely',
I certainly don't think Aikidoists should worry about fajin and I've never suggested that it's a worry. There are too many other things that come well before that.

Ueshiba's Aikido is based on the Yin-Yang dichotomy that is so famous throughout Asia, although he tries to couch it in Shinto terms. He uses the standard allusions as a support to the idea of yin and yang. He also openly stated that atemi is a large part of Aikido. Atemi is not done by "relax completely"... how would you do Yang with only Yin?

I think you may be confusing the best way to learn (by relaxing, among other things) with the application of the Aikido techniques curriculum (which involves some hard). No true discussion of Ki is ever going to say that it is all Yin, as you're implying.

I would also suggest that you take the opportunity to go visit when CXW comes to the UK. I suspect you'll find, if you get a chance to do some hands on, that what you think you see him doing is quite a different animal entirely when you meet him. I tend to be fairly cynical from years of meeting people in the martial arts who have overblown reputations, but I have to admit I was nonplussed when I met him. And I'm not easy to impress, no matter what someone's reputation is.

Regards,

Mike
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Old 04-14-2007, 05:20 PM   #146
Pete Rihaczek
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Re: The internal 'how to' thread... let's hope

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Sorry don't like your logic, it's horribly circular and serves only to reinforce your original assumption of 'This stuff isn't in aikido, therefore someone who claims to have felt it in aikido is wrong'

[snip]

Again I think that's a straw-man argument. Even if it isn't it just boils down to me being a bit optimistic and you not being so optimistic, and has nothing whatsoever to do with my experience of training with people who have these skills. Your logic in suggesting that this is so is patently false and says to me that you're working from the assumpiton I already mentioned 'this stuff is not in aikido, therefore anyone who says it is is wrong' rather than trying to get at the truth of the matter.

[snip]

Actually I think you've made some assumptions about what I think, perhaps an assumption along the lines of 'this stuff isn't in aikido, therefore anyone who says it is is wrong'. I personally think it is a huge puzzle, it certainly puzzles me a great deal.
Hi Mike,

So by my count you've presumed 3 times that I'm saying "this stuff isn't in Aikido", when I never said it. That's called a strawman. If I believed that, I wouldn't be on Aikido forum having this discussion (about the deepest aspects of the art, in the Non-Aikido forum ). What I said was that the percentage in Aikido is likely tiny as it is in Taiji, particularly with the size of the population and the existence of a large organization like the Aikikai. If I'm not mistaken, Mike's encounter that set him off on the road to seek this stuff out was a particular Aikido instructor from Japan. I don't know why it's necessary to repeat over and over the belief that this stuff is hidden and not many people have it as a result. That's been the position for many many posts not just from me, so I'm not sure where this "it's not in Aikido" stuff is coming from. You may not agree, but I don't think anyone has been unclear.

The simple reason that I am not as optimistic is that I have seen this very argument in various forms many times, with people being sure they do it, or their teacher does it, and nothing that's said or pointed to sounds any different than what they already have. Then when they actually go and visit, it's always "oops - guess not." Not 40% of the time, or 65% of the time, but 100% of the time. So I'm not telling you what you know or performing a cold reading over the net, but my experience says it's likely you aren't on the same page. I might be wrong, but if so you would be the first.

I think it's time to abandon this discussion, and abandon the hope that anyone would want to post deep insights, as I see the maggots crawling toward this thread (not meaning you or anyone else who has been decent, to be clear). At this point I think the discussion will already have resonated with, and piqued the curiosity of, those possessing the qualities that would make anyone want to show them something and help them go further down the path. As the old saying goes, when the student is ready, the master will appear.
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Old 04-15-2007, 02:28 AM   #147
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Re: The internal 'how to' thread... let's hope

I think the pareto princple applies to just about everything!

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Old 04-15-2007, 05:04 AM   #148
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Re: The internal 'how to' thread... let's hope

Quote:
Pete Rihaczek wrote: View Post
The simple reason that I am not as optimistic is that I have seen this very argument in various forms many times, with people being sure they do it, or their teacher does it, and nothing that's said or pointed to sounds any different than what they already have. Then when they actually go and visit, it's always "oops - guess not." Not 40% of the time, or 65% of the time, but 100% of the time. So I'm not telling you what you know or performing a cold reading over the net, but my experience says it's likely you aren't on the same page. I might be wrong, but if so you would be the first.
Hi Pete,

I am always going to keep my mind open and assume that everyone has something to offer as a teacher or otherwise, but 100% of the time, come on, Mike Sigman often sights Tohei and Shioda as having the skills, so there must be some of their students that got it and past it on. Of those there is a likelihood they could be in England (or Australia for that matter) I mean Mike and yourself have got to experience these skills and must be able to do it on some level. Don't you think its more likely that some people have some skill but it just may not be as well developed as it could be?

Don't you think discussions of how we use and develop these skills are useful?

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Old 04-15-2007, 08:43 AM   #149
Pete Rihaczek
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Re: The internal 'how to' thread... let's hope

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Aran Bright wrote: View Post
Hi Pete,

I am always going to keep my mind open and assume that everyone has something to offer as a teacher or otherwise, but 100% of the time, come on, Mike Sigman often sights Tohei and Shioda as having the skills, so there must be some of their students that got it and past it on. Of those there is a likelihood they could be in England (or Australia for that matter) I mean Mike and yourself have got to experience these skills and must be able to do it on some level. Don't you think its more likely that some people have some skill but it just may not be as well developed as it could be?

Don't you think discussions of how we use and develop these skills are useful?
Hi Aran,

What I meant was 100% of the time I've seen this exact sort of discussion, with people being sure that they're talking about the same things Mike S. is talking about, the person ends up finding out there's a lot more to it than they thought. Sure Mike H. could be an exception, as I already said. But I think having witnessed the same discussion over and over, that's a fair reason not to be optimistic. Also, the gap between "some skill" and real skill is so big that having "some skill" is not all that meaningful.

And like I said, I don't think further discussion is useful. There is no cure for It Has To Be Shown(tm). Even if it could be done well in writing, no one would do it here.
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Old 04-15-2007, 08:56 AM   #150
Ecosamurai
 
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Re: The internal 'how to' thread... let's hope

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
I certainly don't think Aikidoists should worry about fajin and I've never suggested that it's a worry. There are too many other things that come well before that.

Ueshiba's Aikido is based on the Yin-Yang dichotomy that is so famous throughout Asia, although he tries to couch it in Shinto terms. He uses the standard allusions as a support to the idea of yin and yang. He also openly stated that atemi is a large part of Aikido. Atemi is not done by "relax completely"... how would you do Yang with only Yin?

I think you may be confusing the best way to learn (by relaxing, among other things) with the application of the Aikido techniques curriculum (which involves some hard). No true discussion of Ki is ever going to say that it is all Yin, as you're implying.

I would also suggest that you take the opportunity to go visit when CXW comes to the UK. I suspect you'll find, if you get a chance to do some hands on, that what you think you see him doing is quite a different animal entirely when you meet him. I tend to be fairly cynical from years of meeting people in the martial arts who have overblown reputations, but I have to admit I was nonplussed when I met him. And I'm not easy to impress, no matter what someone's reputation is.

Regards,

Mike
Sorry, that was my fault I wasn't intending to indicate it's all yin or all yang, it's pretty much what you described it as, wasn't making myself clear I'm afraid. Atemi is done with the whole body, Ueshiba often said 'manifest yin in your right hand and yang in your left'

As to CXW visiting the UK, already ahead of you on that score, it's a matter of time and money at the moment but I'm working on it

Mike

Last edited by Ecosamurai : 04-15-2007 at 09:04 AM.

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