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Old 04-07-2007, 02:53 PM   #51
Chuck Clark
 
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Re: Aikido: The Way of Avoidance

It seems to me that in the last one uke's right foot and right hand connect with tori's shoulder at the end of the evasion step and is compressing the uke enough that it would be difficult to continue without restructuring his posture. Tough to tell though without really feeling what's happening. I know what would be happening if I was the tori...

Chuck Clark
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Old 04-07-2007, 03:26 PM   #52
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Re: Aikido: The Way of Avoidance

In all the clips below, if you draw a line between tori's and uke's center before the attack, then watch tori's center at the beginning of the attack and tori's first movement you will see tori's center move off to one side or the other of the line of attack.

First clip: When tori moves his back foot he moves his center off the line of attack.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NE4jkH204pM

Second clip: Tori steps with his rear foot forward and to the left of the line of attack, thus moving his center to the side of the line of attack.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HJn74HJPN2U

Third clip: Tori twisting his hips moves his center off the line of attack.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QNQCmvXiTB4

Fourth clip: Tori makes a slight shift of his center to the side with a slight side step that moves his center off the line of attack.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eDxULcp2bsA

Fith clip: Tori's step removes his center from the line of attack.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vUMugn8LjiM

David
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Old 04-07-2007, 06:19 PM   #53
ChrisMoses
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Re: Aikido: The Way of Avoidance

Quote:
David Skaggs wrote: View Post

First clip: When tori moves his back foot he moves his center off the line of attack.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NE4jkH204pM
1st clip, no meaningful kuzushi at moment of contact, bad tori no cookie.

Quote:
David Skaggs wrote: View Post
Second clip: Tori steps with his rear foot forward and to the left of the line of attack, thus moving his center to the side of the line of attack.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HJn74HJPN2U
Kuzushi on contact, tori does not avoid the attack but enters into it and this affects uke's body immediately. Good tori, gold star. Still not how we would do it, but it's good.

Quote:
David Skaggs wrote: View Post
Third clip: Tori twisting his hips moves his center off the line of attack.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QNQCmvXiTB4
Again, no kuzushi on contact. Bad tori, no cookie.

Quote:
David Skaggs wrote: View Post
Fourth clip: Tori makes a slight shift of his center to the side with a slight side step that moves his center off the line of attack.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eDxULcp2bsA
No kuzushi on contact. Bad tori, no cookie.

Quote:
David Skaggs wrote: View Post
Fith clip: Tori's step removes his center from the line of attack.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vUMugn8LjiM

David
No kuzushi on contact. Bad tori, no cookie.

So 4/5 of your examples DO show people avoiding the attack as their opening move, but I don't think that's how Aikido *should* be done, just how it unfortunately *is* done by many/most.

If you watch the Shioda video, there's a lot of entry and not much avoidance.

Chris Moses
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Old 04-07-2007, 08:07 PM   #54
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Re: Aikido: The Way of Avoidance

Quote:
Christian Moses wrote: View Post

If you watch the Shioda video, there's a lot of entry and not much avoidance.
Good tori, lots of cookies and gold stars?

David
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Old 04-08-2007, 06:16 AM   #55
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Re: Aikido: The Way of Avoidance

Quote:
Christian Moses wrote: View Post
If you watch the Shioda video, there's a lot of entry and not much avoidance.
When I watch the Shiodo video I see a lot of avoidance and atemi.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kE4IkPzJOo4


In the book 'The Spirit of Aikido' by Kisshomaru Ueshiba, on page 41, " Standing face to face with an opponent in the hanmi stance, when the opponent moves forward, one avoids the linear thrust and enters into the opening outside his vision, which is called shikaku or dead angle,"

Last edited by dps : 04-08-2007 at 06:30 AM.
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Old 04-08-2007, 11:17 AM   #56
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Re: Aikido: The Way of Avoidance

Quote:
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When I watch the Shiodo video I see a lot of avoidance and atemi.
Atemi can create kuzushi. Some of that video looks to me like he's showing off a bit, messing with his uke. If you know how people are going to react, you can play like that. If you look at the syllabus he left, there isn't a lot of emphasis on avoidance. I really liked Robert Mustard's demonstration of Yoshinkan Aikido from the first Aiki Expo. I thought he demonstrated some very solid stuff, (and I am not, and have never been in the yoshinkan or one of its offshoots).

Quote:
David Skaggs wrote: View Post
In the book 'The Spirit of Aikido' by Kisshomaru Ueshiba, on page 41, " Standing face to face with an opponent in the hanmi stance, when the opponent moves forward, one avoids the linear thrust and enters into the opening outside his vision, which is called shikaku or dead angle,"
I would say that one avoids the linear thrust *by* entering into the shikaku. If you avoid, and then attempt to enter, with a dynamic uke, it's all over. Tori must control the encounter, and to avoid, you have accepted uke's timing and maai.

Since we're posting video links, note how Takeda Yoshinobu is able to get into the uke's shikaku without any elaborate avoidance.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BW3YE-oJJao

Also note how his uke are compromised no later than the moment of contact and stay that way throughout their encounter. I should point out too, for those who may not have seen or felt him before, that in this particular video, he is clearly on about 10% on the Takeda intensity level-o-meter. I've seen demos in person which his students described as about 70% of what he's capable of and it was awe inspiring.

Chris Moses
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Old 04-08-2007, 11:52 AM   #57
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Re: Aikido: The Way of Avoidance

Quote:
Christian Moses wrote: View Post

I would say that one avoids the linear thrust *by* entering into the shikaku. If you avoid, and then attempt to enter, with a dynamic uke, it's all over. Tori must control the encounter, and to avoid, you have accepted uke's timing and maai.

Since we're posting video links, note how Takeda Yoshinobu is able to get into the uke's shikaku without any elaborate avoidance.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BW3YE-oJJao

Also note how his uke are compromised no later than the moment of contact and stay that way throughout their encounter. I should point out too, for those who may not have seen or felt him before, that in this particular video, he is clearly on about 10% on the Takeda intensity level-o-meter. I've seen demos in person which his students described as about 70% of what he's capable of and it was awe inspiring.
Thank you, after watching the video clip several times I can see where the avoidance of uke"s attack and tori's irimi is blended smoothly together or one in the same. The techniques are so refined. Only 10%, amazing.

David
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Old 04-09-2007, 05:47 PM   #58
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Re: Aikido: The Way of Avoidance

When I read posts like this, it makes me wonder if my original aikido training was really different from everyone elses'. I was taught that due to the nature of aiki waza, you had to be aware of the attack and moving into position sooner than you would be if you were just going to do something like block and strike.
Take a shomen uchi for as an example. A karate style block and punch could be executed literally an instant before you get struck. However doing a shihonage would require 1) being aware of the exact strike, then 2, moving offline (either irmi or ura) just before or just as full commitment takes place. To me, that would make even an ura or tenkan type technique extremely aggressive, because you are setting the stage to take down the opponent just as he is starting to move. I don't consider that avoidence or running away. I see a difference between dodging so you don't get struck, and taking assertive action to not allow someone to strike.
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Old 04-10-2007, 03:09 AM   #59
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Re: Aikido: The Way of Avoidance

Don't worry Paul, I was also trained to enter and control. I think this thread is more concerned with the semantics of words than the reality of combat. Several posters have tried to find this common ground, but if people mean evasion and say avoidance I have no problem with that. I do have a problem with the strategy of avoidance since it rarely displaces the intent of the aggressor, merely prolongs the confrontation, which, to me, is contrary to the spirit of our practice.

If your temper rises withdraw your hand, if your hand rises withdraw your temper.
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Old 04-10-2007, 07:15 PM   #60
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Re: Aikido: The Way of Avoidance

I found this article while doing some research;

08-17-2006, 12:07 PM #30
George S. Ledyard AikiWeb Forums Contributing Member
Username: George S. Ledyard

"... Irimi is like the spokes of a wheel with the attacker at the center hub. I might change my angle from the one directly in front of the attacker but I am always facing the center of the hub. If I place my attention on the center and don't change it at all when I move to a new angle, the attacker simply doesn't register what I am doing soon enough to track me.

This brings me to one of my own pet peeves, so to speak. Aikido is commonly described as the art in which the defender gets off the line, leads the energy of the attack past him and then puts it back in to the attacker. I think this very concept is wrong. The picture in Saotome Sensei's book is an excellent one in this regard. He shows two opponents on a log bridge over a chasm. Anyone who tries to get "off the line" is going to fall into the gorge. Aikido is ALL about irimi. Inside every tenkan movement must first be an irimi. I don't "get off the line" I go to the center and rotate. That's very different and the attacker perceives what you are doing quite differently.

In Aikido we "own" our space. As a visualization to counter the misconception that we are in some way "escaping" from the attack, I have students say to themselves "this is my house and I am not leaving just because you are coming in". Aikido entry is quite simply about creating rotation at or just before the moment of physical contact. This rotation is created by the relative movement of the hips. But the mind, how you place your attention, does not change at all when you enter. The mind is simply "inside" the attack at all times, even before there is an attack. A step coupled with hip rotation will change the angle relative to the attacker but there is no perceivable shift of attention to the place to which one is moving."


Thank You everyone for adding to my understanding.

David

Last edited by dps : 04-10-2007 at 07:20 PM.
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Old 04-11-2007, 12:01 PM   #61
Eric Webber
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Re: Aikido: The Way of Avoidance

Quote:
David Skaggs wrote: View Post
The picture in Saotome Sensei's book is an excellent one in this regard. He shows two opponents on a log bridge over a chasm. Anyone who tries to get "off the line" is going to fall into the gorge. Aikido is ALL about irimi. Inside every tenkan movement must first be an irimi. I don't "get off the line" I go to the center and rotate. That's very different and the attacker perceives what you are doing quite differently.
Saotome refers to the Marubashi Bridge with that illustration. It is a great training tool. We built one at our dojo - made it out of railroad ties covered in fabric. Smelled awful, but worked well! I highly recommend practicing exercises, techniques, and especially weapons on this apparatus, it is very interesting. Ideas of irimi, musubi, kokyu, (among others) can all be explored on it. NO room for moving off line, only forward or retreat. I am particularly fond of practicing Saotome's kumitachi on the Marubashi, taught me a great deal when I was first using it.
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Old 04-11-2007, 12:47 PM   #62
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Re: Aikido: The Way of Avoidance

Quote:
David Skaggs wrote: View Post
Thank You everyone for adding to my understanding.
David, I think this thread and your research is a great example of real training.

Regards,

Tarik Ghbeish
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Old 04-11-2007, 12:54 PM   #63
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Smile Re: Aikido: The Way of Avoidance

Quote:
David Skaggs wrote: View Post
How does avoidance of a conflict increase the longevity of the conflict. If I am not there, there is no conflict.

David
I take it that you are not married, huh?

Shannon
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Old 04-11-2007, 02:59 PM   #64
dps
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Re: Aikido: The Way of Avoidance

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I take it that you are not married, huh?

Shannon
Twenty years not so many conflicts as in the beginning but your point is understood.

David
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Old 04-11-2007, 03:05 PM   #65
dps
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Re: Aikido: The Way of Avoidance

Quote:
Eric Webber wrote: View Post
Saotome refers to the Marubashi Bridge with that illustration. It is a great training tool. We built one at our dojo - made it out of railroad ties covered in fabric. Smelled awful, but worked well! I highly recommend practicing exercises, techniques, and especially weapons on this apparatus, it is very interesting. Ideas of irimi, musubi, kokyu, (among others) can all be explored on it. NO room for moving off line, only forward or retreat. I am particularly fond of practicing Saotome's kumitachi on the Marubashi, taught me a great deal when I was first using it.
The reference to Saotome was from a post by George Ledyard.

Thanks
David
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Old 04-11-2007, 03:13 PM   #66
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Re: Aikido: The Way of Avoidance

Quote:
Tarik Ghbeish wrote: View Post
David, I think this thread and your research is a great example of real training.

Regards,
Thank You.
David
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Old 04-11-2007, 09:10 PM   #67
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Re: Aikido: The Way of Avoidance

Quote:
David Skaggs wrote: View Post
I did not say that Aikido was avoidance, I was saying that avoidance is the first step you do in an Aikido technique, then blending, harmony and finally control.
David
You also said, just after, The avoidance comes before blending.
-----------------

I disagree, totally. Avoidance is not the first step, nor is Aikido defined as avoidance. I know that avoidance is what people generally think to be the first step - but that is simply a big mistake, and one that I had drummed into me for a long time until I got rid of it.

In essence, Aikido is the Way of Aiki. To achieve that, you need irimi, the idea of entering and making contact. Of course, you can avoid and THEN make contact (this often results in a tenkan type technique), and we all often do that, but to improve your aiki it is better just to meet head on, early, merge, and only then move left or right - or go straight through them and take thier space if your timing is good (in the beginning you will fail many times and be tempted to just avoid). Also, it is better to begin tenkan with this spirit too. And, if you do move to the side, think of it more as a means to instantly advance forwards towards their centre to make contact than avoiding the attack. We are not searching fo ravoidance. What we are after is aiki - think! How are you going to get it?

Afterthought: After someone does a good technique, it will look to a bystander that they avoided, but they did not, even if they say they did.

I wonder if that makes sense?

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Old 04-11-2007, 10:14 PM   #68
dps
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Re: Aikido: The Way of Avoidance

[quote=Rupert Atkinson;175253]

In essence, Aikido is the Way of Aiki. To achieve that, you need irimi, the idea of entering and making contact. Of course, you can avoid and THEN make contact (this often results in a tenkan type technique), and we all often do that, but to improve your aiki it is better just to meet head on, early, merge, and only then move left or right - or go straight through them and take thier space if your timing is good (in the beginning you will fail many times and be tempted to just avoid). QUOTE]

If an attacker is trying to punch me in the face, how do I do an irimi without getting hit in the face?
David
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Old 04-11-2007, 10:19 PM   #69
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Re: Aikido: The Way of Avoidance

To clarify my previous post. What part of the irimi keeps the fist from hitting my face?

Thanks
David
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Old 04-11-2007, 11:48 PM   #70
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Re: Aikido: The Way of Avoidance

Ruppert, I think it is semantics really. David brings up a good point, I would not irimi into a hard blow and absorb it by first making contact, I would irimi to avoid it.

If someone is watching and you do it right, and it looks like avoidance, well it is avoidance.

Semantically, I would tend to call it proactive avoidance. That is, you move out of the way to avoid, but into a good position that gains the upper hand on uke, no matter how slight it may be. Not so far out of the way that you are now dealing with another attack versus causing uke to protect himself.

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Old 04-12-2007, 05:45 AM   #71
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Re: Aikido: The Way of Avoidance

Quote:
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Ruppert, I think it is semantics really. David brings up a good point, I would not irimi into a hard blow and absorb it by first making contact, I would irimi to avoid it.

If someone is watching and you do it right, and it looks like avoidance, well it is avoidance.

Semantically, I would tend to call it proactive avoidance. That is, you move out of the way to avoid, but into a good position that gains the upper hand on uke, no matter how slight it may be. Not so far out of the way that you are now dealing with another attack versus causing uke to protect himself.
Thank you Kevin. I think the problem is a negative connotation to the word avoid. I like Janet Rosen's "chosing to change the terms of the engagement".

David
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Old 04-12-2007, 06:42 AM   #72
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Re: Aikido: The Way of Avoidance

Quote:
David Skaggs wrote: View Post
I think the problem is a negative connotation to the word avoid. I like Janet Rosen's "chosing to change the terms of the engagement".
Notice how we practice blending with each others body on the mat, but tend to resist the words.

Lynn Seiser PhD
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Old 04-12-2007, 06:46 AM   #73
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Re: Aikido: The Way of Avoidance

Yes

Last edited by dps : 04-12-2007 at 06:48 AM.
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Old 04-12-2007, 07:45 AM   #74
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Re: Aikido: The Way of Avoidance

Quote:
David Skaggs wrote: View Post
What part of the irimi keeps the fist from hitting my face?
Changing the distance and or angle and creating kuzushi... even if the contact is with your face, it still works. If the fist does make contact with your face: Best case, the attacker's hit leaves no harmful effect and you get to make your waza... Second best case, the attacker's hit does some damage but you still get to make your waza (and then get a band aid...)

If the first contact is your hand/arm/shoulder, etc. then the kuzushi/tsukuri should create the opportunity to make your waza without the fist ever hitting your face. Remember a miss is a miss no matter how much air is between your face and the fist. Get off the line while entering or change the line while entering and affect the attacker's intent, structural integrity, and ability to continue the attack. Join and change the attack.

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Old 04-12-2007, 07:51 AM   #75
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Re: Aikido: The Way of Avoidance

It's semantics but it is also a matter of what most people associate with the term "avoidance" on an internal level. At some point in an attack the nage has to "accept" the attack. He may then proceed to move out of the way but he or she had to be right at ground zero, if only for an instant. People who think of getting off the line as "avoidance" typically do not have the proper mindset of "irimi" and their whole energy is Yin which draws the attack right into them.

When I travel around I find all sorts of people who cannot execute their entries when the attacker is really trying to hit them. This is because they have the thought that they can escape somehow and then do the technique in question.

Nage should have one mindset and that is "in". His mind needs to be inside the uke's attack from the time they bow to each other. Even if he does rotate off the line at some point it was always a forward movement towards the uke's center. This is true even when he steps back....

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