Welcome to AikiWeb Aikido Information
AikiWeb: The Source for Aikido Information
AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information.

Sections
home
aikido articles
columns

Discussions
forums
aikiblogs

Databases
dojo search
seminars
image gallery
supplies
links directory

Reviews
book reviews
video reviews
dvd reviews
equip. reviews

News
submit
archive

Miscellaneous
newsletter
rss feeds
polls
about

Follow us on



Home > AikiWeb Aikido Forums
Go Back   AikiWeb Aikido Forums > General

Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history, humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced features available, you will need to register first. Registration is absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 04-04-2007, 06:22 AM   #51
Timothy WK
Location: Chicago, IL
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 178
United_States
Offline
Re: Ueshiba on the future of Aikido

That was a very good post, Erick.

Quote:
Erick Mead wrote: View Post
MMA seems a distraction from the task of breaking down that barrier, as does the nature of solo (dare I say solipsistic) training and the highly individualized pursuits that seems so characteristic of it.
I have to disagree somewhat with the solo-training comment, though. If I may be philosophical for a moment, you cannot truly Love another without Loving yourself. The two are not synonymous, but they are intertwined. You can never fully embrace another person if you never come to grips with your own personal fears, loneliness, and shortcomings. And likewise, if you never embrace others, you will continue to live under the illusion of your own self-importance.

I believe there is a martial parallel here as well. Learning to understand your own inner-workings will help you to manipulate others, just as learning to manipulate others will shed light on your own inner workings.

But I think I understand what you were trying to say. Attention to the self can be seductive. If it's not tempered by interaction with others it will often lead to illusions of self-importance (both philosophically and martially). But if kept in the right perspective, self-study has many benefits.

I think this is actually a major point Dan is trying to communicate, though he's speaking in martial terms. I think he's arguing that traditional Aikido practice is primarily self-absorbed (at least martially), and that MMA(*) provides martial interaction with others.
__________

(*) I actually disagree with the way the term "MMA" is being used in this thread. I think it's stretching the term beyond how it's commonly understood, and I think it short-credits traditional training by implying that traditional training is unconcerned with developing effective technique against a variety of opponents and attacks.

--Timothy Kleinert

Aikido & Wujifa qigongs
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-04-2007, 07:31 AM   #52
George S. Ledyard
 
George S. Ledyard's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido Eastside
Location: Bellevue, WA
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 2,632
Offline
Re: Ueshiba on the future of Aikido

Quote:
Timothy Walters Kleinert wrote: View Post
I have to disagree somewhat with the solo-training comment, though. If I may be philosophical for a moment, you cannot truly Love another without Loving yourself. The two are not synonymous, but they are intertwined. You can never fully embrace another person if you never come to grips with your own personal fears, loneliness, and shortcomings. And likewise, if you never embrace others, you will continue to live under the illusion of your own self-importance.
I think it is important to realize that in a given day, O-Sensei put more time in on solo training than he did working with partners... I think that Ellis's "Hidden in Plain Sight" was specifically pointing this out and noting that most Aikido practitioners don't do this.

It's sort of Aikido logic 101:
O-Sensei did lots of solo practice every day with some partner practice. Most Aikido people do waza and very little solo practice. Most Aikido people today are nowhere near the level of O-Sensei. Might we be tempted to make a connection?

George S. Ledyard
Aikido Eastside
Bellevue, WA
Aikido Eastside
AikidoDvds.Com
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-04-2007, 07:42 AM   #53
MM
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,996
United_States
Offline
Re: Ueshiba on the future of Aikido

Quote:
George S. Ledyard wrote: View Post
I think it is important to realize that in a given day, O-Sensei put more time in on solo training than he did working with partners... I think that Ellis's "Hidden in Plain Sight" was specifically pointing this out and noting that most Aikido practitioners don't do this.

It's sort of Aikido logic 101:
O-Sensei did lots of solo practice every day with some partner practice. Most Aikido people do waza and very little solo practice. Most Aikido people today are nowhere near the level of O-Sensei. Might we be tempted to make a connection?
Even if we do make the connection, then the next few questions still give us pause. Just what solo exercises was he doing? What exactly was he working when doing solo exercises? And from where did he get these solo exercises?

Now, granted, we know some of his solo training. We can see him doing a few in videos, but was that all of them? And also, what solo weapons training did he do besides spear against tree? Videos don't show internal mechanisms and we have to conclude that he was definitely working on internal "things" when doing solo exercises. So, what was he working? And finally, I'm sure Takeda showed him solo exercises, but what were they? Are they the same ones we see Ueshiba doing later on in his life (funekogi undo, etc)?

What were the solo exercises that his students did? Tomiki, Shioda, Tohei, Mochizuki, etc? Are they all the same?

Mark
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-04-2007, 08:04 AM   #54
DH
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,394
United_States
Offline
Re: Ueshiba on the future of Aikido

Takeda and HIS method produced; Sagawa, Ueshiba, and Kodo.
Solo training? Well, where did Ueshiba get his skills from?

Solo training?
Hmmm....Hmmm.....
Heres some quotes from his fellow classmate-Sagawa Yukioshi

The true execution of Aiki requires an enormous amount of solo training to condition the body (Tanren). It is not easy to attain.

The reason practitioners from some styles are weak and no good is because they do not train (Tanren) their bodies. Only amateurs think that techniques are enough and that training the body is unnecessary. They understand nothing.
Most people would probably recoil if they knew what my training regimen consisted of.
The body must be trained until it is a veritable fortress, then should you body-slam (tai atari) another person bigger than yourself, they will be sent flying.


As for Kata and Form
Takeda Sensei's teaching method was always practical. He never taught us kata (forms). So, I have been preserving this method.

Where did Ueshiba "get it?"
Twenty years of training in DR produced..1....2....3.......A DR guy!
Teaching and handing out scrolls in DR, and doing Aiki-no jutsu. Which he used to modfiy to meet his new vision. To cast-off instead of drawing-in and causing breakfalls at his feet. Producing a newer from of Ukemi throw-away that was safer and more peaceful.
Art-meets-vision.

As for talking to Aikido people about it?
Sinclair wrote"
It's difficult to get a man to understand something, if his salary is based on his -not- understanding it.
Men will go to great lengths to find or create evidence to reinforce ideas that make them most comfortable.

Last edited by DH : 04-04-2007 at 08:15 AM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-04-2007, 08:10 AM   #55
MM
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,996
United_States
Offline
Re: Ueshiba on the future of Aikido

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Takeda and HIS method produced; Sagawa, Ueshiba, and Kodo.
Solo training? Well, where did Ueshiba get his skills from?

Solo training?
Hmmm....Hmmm.....
Heres some quotes from his fellow classmate-Sagawa Yukioshi

The true execution of Aiki requires an enormous amount of solo training to condition the body (Tanren). It is not easy to attain.

The reason practitioners from some styles are weak and no good is because they do not train (Tanren) their bodies. Only amateurs think that techniques are enough and that training the body is unnecessary. They understand nothing.
Most people would probably recoil if they knew what my training regimen consisted of.
The body must be trained until it is a veritable fortress, then should you body-slam (tai atari) another person bigger than yourself, they will be sent flying.


As for Kata and Form
Takeda Sensei's teaching method was always practical. He never taught us kata (forms). So, I have been preserving this method.

Hmmm..........Do we really need researchers, gobs of information, statistical analysis and conjecture and students-of-students of the friends of the family pets litter mate to support the obvious?
Men will go to great lengths to find or create evidence to reinforce ideas that make them most comfortable.

Sinclair wrote"
It's difficult to get a man to understand something, if his salary is based on his -not- understanding it.
Hi Dan,

True. But was Takeda's solo training the same as Ueshiba's solo training? Hmmm ... okay, we know it had to be the same in the beginning, but what about later on, say, years after the war?

I guess you could ask that question another way, Did Omoto kyo influence or change Ueshiba's solo exercises?

Mark
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-04-2007, 08:25 AM   #56
DH
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,394
United_States
Offline
Re: Ueshiba on the future of Aikido

Good point and I agree.
I usually don't forward the discussion until some consensus is achieved that he originally "got it" from Takeda.

As you progress you can add and add. In fact I think only a half wit would fail to invovate once certain levels are achieved. The solo training can be a process of discovery. A process that when combined with students intereacting with your newly built Aiki body makes newer reactions-which then may send you off in more directions. Its why none of the Big four Sagawa, Ueshiba, Kodo and Hisa, look the same. Nor their off spring: Okamotto, Inue, Shioda, Mori and Kimura.
But none of them...made it up did they? They stated by having it handed to them.

The body method is profound and you will make personal discoveries. But you don't "find it" farting golden clouds in the garden and having mountains shout at you while you dodge bullets. In short-you don't make this stuff up.It's not natural. It gets handed to you. Then...you build and add.
The personal path and growth is a good discussion. I'm only intracatable and obstinate when credit is not given where credit is due-to Takeda. Then I move forward and recognize-even applaud-the vision of Ueshiba. I truly (no kidding) applaud his vision.
But Takeda was Dai Sensei.
He was the true master of the big four.

Last edited by DH : 04-04-2007 at 08:30 AM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-04-2007, 08:27 AM   #57
Aikilove
Dojo: Lunds Aikidoklubb
Location: Lund, Sweden
Join Date: Dec 2000
Posts: 272
Sweden
Offline
Re: Ueshiba on the future of Aikido

I think one has to also realize that training (in aikido) for O-sensei was something very personal. He trained mainly for himself (solo practice if you like!), going up early every morning to pray and do misogi. Then he would do some solo physical exercises (in Iwama it seem to have been sword and staff mainly), sometimes going through some exercises with the present deshi (in Iwama it would be Saito and others). He seem to have been somewhat influenced by some schools in some of the solo exercises with sword (e.g. Jigen ryu's tanren uchi etc), but this would be after he already had displayed some considerable skills (internal and external). But all this was his own misogi. Solo work for him seem to me to have been more of a personal forging and misogi than anything else.
It was the basic techniques (not the solo work) that he consistantly taught from the end of 20's until he died. If the students did solo weapon works he would apparently scold them unless they did something out of a real school under supervision other than aikido. The only ones that apparently got some basic tutoring in bukiwaza (enough to be allowed to teach these things in his presence) were Hikitsuchi and Saito if I'm not mistaken. If it was that important, why wouldn't he have shown some simple solo exercises with staff and jo for all his deshi? It's one thing that there was a unity in Taijutsu and bukiwaza within O-senseis aikido. It's another thing all together to say that it was the bukiwaza (or what have you) that made him who hi was from the beginning. Everything he did was aikido! When he was walking it was aikido. Same if he held a staff or a sword in his hands. It was aikido. His aikido. His training.

The only exersises I can see intended for build up of internal power that he did and taught were the tori fune/funa kogi (solo indeed, but did he do that pre WW2?) and the suwari waza (and morote dori) kokyu ho (it mean kokyu exersise after all!). The latter one is something that we see in Daito ryu today. Sagawa did it and Tokimune did it. Ueshiba did it. If anything there seem to be something different how most aikidoka does this vs. how Daito ryu folks do it. Is that what's missing? We simply can't do it properly? I don't know.

/J

Last edited by Aikilove : 04-04-2007 at 08:33 AM.

Jakob Blomquist
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-04-2007, 08:37 AM   #58
MM
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,996
United_States
Offline
Re: Ueshiba on the future of Aikido

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Good point and I agree.
I usually don't forward the discussion until some consensus is achieved that he originally "got it" from Takeda.

As you progress you can add and add. In fact I think only a half wit would fail to invovate once certain levels are achieved. Its why none of the Big four Sagawa, Ueshiba, Kodo and Hisa, look the same. Nor their off spring: Okamotto, Inue, Shioda, Mori and Kimura.

The body method is profound and you will make personal discoveries. But you don't "find it" farting golden clouds in the garden and having mountains shout at you while you dodge bullets. In short-you don't make this stuff up.It's not natural. It gets handed to you.
Then...you build and add.
I'm only intracatable and obstinate when credit is not given where credit is due-to Takeda. Then I move forward and recognize-even applaud-the vision of Ueshiba. I truly, no kidding, applaud his vision.
But Takeda was Dai Sensei. the true master of the big four. Not Ueshiba.
No arguments from me that Takeda created the others.

Course, all those mysterious retreats into the mountains where they gained insights are probably momentous amounts of solo training where no one can see what they're doing. So, then they come back and instead of giving out the secrets, they say they were washed in a golden light from heaven.

But, back to Ueshiba's aikido. So he innovated his training as he went along. Given that a big part of his life was Omoto kyo, it'd be a fairly logical step to say that this influenced the way he innovated his training.

Which brings us to his vision. And yeah, it seems fairly radical comparing it to the rest of the martial arts of his times. In fact, it actually gives a whole new meaning to what Kano said about it being a true budo. (Forgot the actual quote).

But, what then of the non-competition aspect? How do you train in Ueshiba aikido but yet not know if what you're doing is good and true without some means of testing it?

Mark
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-04-2007, 08:51 AM   #59
DH
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,394
United_States
Offline
Re: Ueshiba on the future of Aikido

Jacob
Aikido's body method is Daito ryu's Aiki-age (Kokyu). It was not a discovery of Ueshiba's.
"No aiki-age- no Aikido."
"No Kokyu-no Aikido."
"No peng jin-no Taiji."

The problem is training techniwques as means to find it.
Will it work-Maybe yes maybe no. But its like taking a slow boat to China. there are far more direct routes that are faster with more defined results.
The solo work changes everything. I now train with folks who train AIkido DRAJJ and they are-or should I say WERE stumped at how powerful they could now do Aiki-age compared to before. After having seen senior men get stumped, they can see how The solo work changes everything. I'm not talking about wrist grab shapes!!From there the real work and training begins in all the other things. So, solo work is key-Aiki is first created in you by solo training, not in "meeting" energy from outside. It's not about shapes and write thingy' either. I think men get stumped because their "minds are in their hands" in a shape or a technique. It's in the body.
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-04-2007, 09:19 AM   #60
DH
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,394
United_States
Offline
Re: Ueshiba on the future of Aikido

Quote:
Mark Murray wrote: View Post
No arguments from me that Takeda created the others.

Course, all those mysterious retreats into the mountains where they gained insights are probably momentous amounts of solo training where no one can see what they're doing. So, then they come back and instead of giving out the secrets, they say they were washed in a golden light from heaven.
Were I to guess-I'de say that maybe you now have a better understanding of just, how that could have been so?

Quote:
Mark Murray wrote: View Post
But, back to Ueshiba's aikido. So he innovated his training as he went along. Given that a big part of his life was Omoto kyo, it'd be a fairly logical step to say that this influenced the way he innovated his training.
Well we've all heard the "popular"stories
So we can also consider the obvious-since its ussually easier then the made up myths.
Ueshiba was training. DRAJJ is jut like other internal arts- you get epihanies and windows of growth in spurts. Deguchi was already stuned by Ueshibas skills,sure. then Takeda show up moves in. They train for months, everyday. Deguchi who does not like Takeda is likewise amazed at his skills and suggest changing the arts name. Perhaps the following happened
Ueshiba was ready to learn Aiki-no-jutsu and get it over this period. Deguchi is even more impressed. Floored by this power. He suggest instead of Daito ryu jujutsu which incorporates AIki as a power-that the art itself should be called Aiki-jujutsu. Takeda is given gifts and sent on his way. Ueshiba's skills go through the roof

My " theory" is at least a pluasible as the Omoto one. And has far more mundan and explicable causes.
Heres one.
Takeda made four men with Ueshiba's skills-I say Kodo and Sagawa's method were better.
Omote made who?

Quote:
Mark Murray wrote: View Post
Which brings us to his vision. And yeah, it seems fairly radical comparing it to the rest of the martial arts of his times. In fact, it actually gives a whole new meaning to what Kano said about it being a true budo. (Forgot the actual quote).

But, what then of the non-competition aspect? How do you train in Ueshiba aikido but yet not know if what you're doing is good and true without some means of testing it?
Mark
Well, I love, love,,,,his vision. to be able to fight back without causing harm. Its not "really" do able against other trained fighters. But how about the rest of humanity? There it can work.
Now take the Body method that he was actually doing?
That works against other fighters-if you train to fight.
So overall its a great method...
Here's a thought: Kano saw what you saw, what Tim saw when Judo techniques were tried on someone with internal skills...zip. Now imagine watching or feeling someone as good as Ueshiba? Makes it seem more real and plausible, neh? I don't think many of these guys were stupid.

How about Harrisons book where the Judo guy is sent to meet an Aikijujutsu master who was doing what? Pushing, pulling, and being immovable. Gee, sound familiar? Then this Judo guy talks about practice beyond precept. Bout real world applicable use. He tells Harrison "When So and so (6th dan judoka)I uses this method-he cannot be thrown.

If we stop doing the Martial art technique "shtick" and go back to work on the "real" foundations of these arts then more and more men will be able to match the legends. The arts didn't fail us, we failed them. We have teachers who wont or -God bless them- can't teach, and/or lousy students. We need to fix it. Challenge those who know to teach more openly-good luck- or go find it on our own.

In time maybe more and more men will being doing real, applicable and powerful Aiki..do ..that will work against Judoka and more highly trained fighters...in modern Aikido

Last edited by DH : 04-04-2007 at 09:23 AM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-04-2007, 10:21 AM   #61
MM
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,996
United_States
Offline
Re: Ueshiba on the future of Aikido

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Were I to guess-I'de say that maybe you now have a better understanding of just, how that could have been so?
LOL. I can't imagine doing these exercises through a whole day, let alone weeks. I'd probably need a nice cool mountain stream to plunge into. Oh, wait, that's a misogi practice.

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
The arts didn't fail us, we failed them.
It isn't that Aikido sucks. It's that my Aikido sucks.

But, seriously, I think following Ueshiba's vision of aikido is a harder road than doing other martial arts. And I think where people start falling short of that is when they apply only a "spiritual" aspect to aikido. Being "spiritual" is all well and good, but if you just wanted that, try yoga. No, I think Ueshiba had more of a martial spiritual aspect than anything.

Mark
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-04-2007, 10:55 AM   #62
DH
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,394
United_States
Offline
Re: Ueshiba on the future of Aikido

Quote:
Mark Murray wrote: View Post
LOL. I can't imagine doing these exercises through a whole day, let alone weeks. I'd probably need a nice cool mountain stream to plunge into. Oh, wait, that's a misogi practice.

But, seriously, I think following Ueshiba's vision of aikido is a harder road than doing other martial arts. And I think where people start falling short of that is when they apply only a "spiritual" aspect to aikido. Being "spiritual" is all well and good, but if you just wanted that, try yoga. No, I think Ueshiba had more of a martial spiritual aspect than anything.

Mark
Well Sagawa said people would be appalled at the amount of work he did everday.

As for Ueshiba's vision being a harder road then other martial arts? Well I can understand your love of Aikido. But, maybe others had a hard road too. Sagawa and Kodo were able to stop attackers without hurting them as well. Even in their old age. I've had hands-on with a potent Tai ji guy in his 70's. Very powerful old guy.
So maybe its more accurate to say things along Sagawa's way of thinking -
That all of us who choose this way have to get there by a lot of inglorious, solo training and sweat. There is no fame or recognition on that hot summer day, or having your wife tell you your nuts, or drifting off while standing there in a company meeting internally "winding." We have to chose its each day whether or not to work. Moreover, not to get full of ourselves at a point we think we got something and stop. Every week its workin-it workin-it.
We all know the one word definition of success-Failure.
I think it best to be never satisifed with your efforts.

Last edited by DH : 04-04-2007 at 11:01 AM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-04-2007, 11:07 AM   #63
akiy
 
akiy's Avatar
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 5,843
Offline
Re: Ueshiba on the future of Aikido

Can we please steer the focus of the thread back to discussing aikido specifically and explicitly?

Thank you.

-- Jun

Please help support AikiWeb -- become an AikiWeb Contributing Member!
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-04-2007, 11:24 AM   #64
MM
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,996
United_States
Offline
Re: Ueshiba on the future of Aikido

Quote:
Jun Akiyama wrote: View Post
Can we please steer the focus of the thread back to discussing aikido specifically and explicitly?

Thank you.

-- Jun
Hi Jun,
I'm sorry, but I don't see where we weren't discussing aikido? Specifically, Ueshiba's vision of aikido. Can you explain where we were not doing that?

#52: Ledyard - Ueshiba and solo training
#53: Me - Ueshiba, solo training, his students training
#54: Harden - Ueshiba's vision of aikido
#55: Me - Ueshiba solo training different than Takeda?
#56: Harden - Takeda, Ueshiba, and students were all different
#57: Blomquist - Ueshiba and basic techniques
#58: Me - Ueshiba, Omoto kyo, and his vision of aikido
#59: Harden - Aikido's method is DR is solo training
#60: Harden - Ueshiba, Deguchi, Takeda. Ueshiba's vision of aikido
#61: Me - Ueshiba's vision of Aikido
#62: Harden - Ueshiba's vision compared to what others could also do and how it's always training, training, training.

For the most part, every post has been related in some way to Ueshiba, his vision, and how he trained. Unless you want to remove all mention of solo training, which covered most of those posts? Is that what you mean by steering the focus back to aikido specifically and explicitly? I'm not being sarcastic here, but I really, really couldn't see where the focus ever left Ueshiba or aikido.

Mark
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-04-2007, 11:39 AM   #65
DH
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,394
United_States
Offline
Re: Ueshiba on the future of Aikido

Well I can see Jun's point. But its hard to discuss where he was pointing to since much of what he pointing to-came from where he went and what he did and he didn't tell anyone how to do it!!!
So its a search for what he did- that leads to where others can also find a path to where he was pointing? On top of that we have others -some top intructors in aikido- looking outward to research and invigorate back-in studies they believe are essential to aikido.
Does that make sense?

I think its VERY respectful of both him and his vision. Heck its even turning my eyes back toward it as an art. What about others who have been leaving to research more effective ways. Maybe it iwll make them think twice too. And thats all good for Aikido.

Last edited by DH : 04-04-2007 at 11:41 AM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-04-2007, 11:41 AM   #66
akiy
 
akiy's Avatar
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 5,843
Offline
Re: Ueshiba on the future of Aikido

Hi Mark,

I see the focus of the thread as being outside of aikido itself due to most of the references being of practitioners outside of aikido -- namely, more focusing on Daito Ryu aikijujutsu than aikido.

That's all I'll say regarding this matter in this thread.

-- Jun

Please help support AikiWeb -- become an AikiWeb Contributing Member!
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-04-2007, 12:59 PM   #67
Erick Mead
 
Erick Mead's Avatar
Dojo: Big Green Drum (W. Florida Aikikai)
Location: West Florida
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 2,441
United_States
Offline
Re: Ueshiba on the future of Aikido

Quote:
Timothy Walters Kleinert wrote: View Post
I have to disagree somewhat with the solo-training comment, though. If I may be philosophical for a moment, you cannot truly Love another without Loving yourself.
I find that there is quite an overabundance of self-love around these days, or at least what currently passes for a crude, materialist facsimile of it, in any event.
Quote:
Timothy Walters Kleinert wrote: View Post
The two are not synonymous, but they are intertwined. ... But if kept in the right perspective, self-study has many benefits.
I agree more with the latter observation as to the intertwined nature, however. Love of self is to be found in perspective with love of others -- or not at all. This is a distinguishing aspect of most aikido that I have practiced, and the reason for my observation. The risk of slipping into solipsism through solo training and its particular risk of ego-hardening is at least as great as for the risk of competitive ego gain, which notably, O Sensei did not allow. I say this having benefited from periods of my own solo training forced on me somehwat ad hoc by deployments, in which I did shadowboxing thourgh sets of kihon and variations thereon, slowly, with great rigor and attention to form and dynamic, always imagining the movement of the shadow partner before adapting my own.

Last edited by Erick Mead : 04-04-2007 at 01:09 PM.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-04-2007, 01:26 PM   #68
Erick Mead
 
Erick Mead's Avatar
Dojo: Big Green Drum (W. Florida Aikikai)
Location: West Florida
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 2,441
United_States
Offline
Re: Ueshiba on the future of Aikido

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Well I can see Jun's point. But its hard to discuss where he was pointing to since much of what he pointing to-came from where he went and what he did and he didn't tell anyone how to do it!!!
Huygens/Fresnel Principle -- no matter where the sound originates on the other side of the door, to the man on this side -- it all comes from the door. This has direct application to the problem of musubi, but is also a more general comment on the importance of sources. In fact, it is meaningless to posit the position of the source on the other side of the door, because any number of positions could reproduce what is perceived on this side.

In short, remote sources do not necessarily matter. Empirically verifiable information on current sources does matter. Ki/Kokyu is a fundamental principle of nature anyway -- as the remote sources themselves suggest. It is thus rediscoverable from present sources without regard to the more remote sources that suggested a look at the basic principles again.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-04-2007, 04:06 PM   #69
bkedelen
 
bkedelen's Avatar
Dojo: Boulder Aikikai
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 446
United_States
Offline
Re: Ueshiba on the future of Aikido

That is an excellent point Erick. Since someone had to come up with all of these skills in the first place, it is reasonable to assume that a dedicated individual could rediscover such abilities rather than (or in addition to) learning them from someone else. The hope that this is true may give all of us who have teachers not claiming to have ancient and secret knowledge faith in continued training. In addition, as your previous brilliant post on primary effectiveness pointed out, possessing specific martial skills is hollow and purposeless if you are not a quality human being who can use those skills for some meaningful purpose. While such skills will give a person some credibility in an online martial arts forum, those skills may not be being used to foster better people or create a better world. To me, Osensei seems to speak about this point at great length.
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-04-2007, 05:59 PM   #70
kironin
 
kironin's Avatar
Dojo: Houston Ki Aikido
Location: Houston,TX
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 1,032
United_States
Offline
Re: Ueshiba on the future of Aikido

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
As for talking to Aikido people about it?
Sinclair wrote"
It's difficult to get a man to understand something, if his salary is based on his -not- understanding it.
Men will go to great lengths to find or create evidence to reinforce ideas that make them most comfortable.
Damn, I am supposed to be getting a salary ?

Why didn't any one tell me?

  Reply With Quote
Old 04-05-2007, 02:31 PM   #71
mriehle
 
mriehle's Avatar
Dojo: New School Aikido
Location: Stockton, CA
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 320
United_States
Offline
Re: Ueshiba on the future of Aikido

Quote:
Craig Hocker wrote: View Post
Damn, I am supposed to be getting a salary ?

Why didn't any one tell me?
Don't feel bad, nobody told me either.

  Reply With Quote
Old 04-06-2007, 10:28 AM   #72
jennifer paige smith
 
jennifer paige smith's Avatar
Dojo: Confluence Aiki-Dojo / Santa Cruz Sword Club
Location: Santa Cruz
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 1,049
United_States
Offline
Re: Ueshiba on the future of Aikido

Quote:
Benjamin Edelen wrote: View Post
This thread is really getting good. Shedding fear and embracing love as real and serious Aikido gokui appears to me to be consistent with what Joseph Campbell described as "walking the thread of the hero path".
I am cheered to hear someone speak of Joseph Campbell. I only experience harmony when my ear hears Campbell. Certainly we are on the heros path and EVERY story we build on this forum or in our minds or in our belief system reflects our journey and creates our adventure. Techniques are the spinning of myth as much as anything else. For example: the question "how would this work in such a such situation" is the pre- fabrication of the myth of war. "I could be more gentle with myself (or others) if I train like this...." is a myth of trancendence. The myth I follow is the myth of the path unfolding under my feet. This is a living adventure focused by the certainty of death. Enjoy your steps.
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-06-2007, 12:13 PM   #73
Dennis Hooker
Dojo: Shindai Dojo, Orlando Fl.
Location: Orlando Florida
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 456
Offline
Re: Ueshiba on the future of Aikido

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Takeda and HIS method produced; Sinclair wrote"
It's difficult to get a man to understand something, if his salary is based on his -not- understanding it.
Men will go to great lengths to find or create evidence to reinforce ideas that make them most comfortable.
.and Joseph Campbell wrote "And so it is that in our childhood years the foundation is laid of our later view of the world, and there with as well of its superficiality or depth: it will be in later years unfolded and fulfilled, not essentially changed."

I think therein lies the difference between Ueshiba and Aikido and Daito-ryu and Sokaku Takeda

Last edited by Dennis Hooker : 04-06-2007 at 12:15 PM.

Dennis Hooker: (DVD) Zanshin and Ma-ai in Aikido
https://www.createspace.com/238049

www.shindai.com
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-06-2007, 03:48 PM   #74
DH
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,394
United_States
Offline
Re: Ueshiba on the future of Aikido

Quote:
Dennis Hooker wrote: View Post
.and Joseph Campbell wrote "And so it is that in our childhood years the foundation is laid of our later view of the world, and there with as well of its superficiality or depth: it will be in later years unfolded and fulfilled, not essentially changed."

I think therein lies the difference between Ueshiba and Aikido and Daito-ryu and Sokaku Takeda
Ahhhh
And so it was that.....
in later years (it) unfolded and (was) fulfilled.... not essentially changed."

It is my view that we look at this dilema of Aiki....as brothers.
Not cousins, not distant relatives, but brothers.
Ueshiba's vision of change was great and grand in a world view. But not nearly as dramatic in the practical execution. It was Ueshiba's decision to stop drawing in, to stop such damaging forms of jujutsu and to continually cast away with aiki, that made the shift towards the safer Ukemi we see. Its was this that allowed his Budo to match his vision and create something new with his Aiki. Learned from his teacher-Takeda.
Hence his words
"Takeda opened my eyes to true budo."

[i]Interview-Takeda Sokaku-
"This technique is a perfect self-defense art where you avoid being cut, hit or kicked while at the same time you don't hit, kick or cut. As the attack comes you handle it expediently using the power of your opponent. So even women and children can execute these techniques. But I make it a rule not to teach the techniques to anyone without proper references because they are frightening if misused. .....]


I think, in the end, their views were not that far apart.

Cheers
Dan

Last edited by DH : 04-06-2007 at 04:03 PM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-06-2007, 05:25 PM   #75
Chris Li
 
Chris Li's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido Sangenkai
Location: Honolulu, Hawaii
Join Date: Dec 2000
Posts: 3,058
United_States
Offline
Re: Ueshiba on the future of Aikido

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
As for Ueshiba's vision being a harder road then other martial arts? Well I can understand your love of Aikido. But, maybe others had a hard road too. Sagawa and Kodo were able to stop attackers without hurting them as well.
I think that it is a common misconception that Ueshiba's vision was a martial art that would be able to stop attackers without harming them. At the very least, that is a vast over-simplification of what his vision really turned out to be.

True, that was the seed of his experience in 1925, but the actual vision is much more complex and developed than that. If you look at "Take Musu Aiki", in which Ueshiba spends the first chapter defining what Aikido is, "stopping an attacker without hurting them" is not mentioned at all, not even once.

Without a doubt, Daito-ryu comprises the physical pillar of Ueshiba's creation, but the other pillar, which is no less important when defining "Aikido", is composed of the concepts that he elaborates on in "Take Musu Aiki" - a good read if you can slog through the Japanese. "Aikido Shinzui" is also a good source, but maybe a little tamer.

If you look at these sources I think that it is clear that when he talks about his "aiki" being different than in previous generations that he is absolutely correct. However, I think that it is also clear that he is using the word "aiki" in a different sense, and that is why it is "different".

So in the end, I would say that both are arguments are essentially true - Ueshiba's physical Aiki was the Aiki of Daito-ryu, and remained essentially unchanged from the Aiki taught to him by Sokaku Takeda. On the other hand, his use of the word "Aiki" as a spiritual/philosophical concept as part of his world-view was not only radically different from Daito-ryu, but from other martial arts practiced at the time.

In relation to the "harder road", I will note that Sagawa (in "Tomei na Chikara") seems to have been of the opinion that real personal transformation (which is primarily what Ueshiba harps on in "Take Musu Aiki") on any significant scale is so difficult as to be almost impossible .

Best,

Chris

  Reply With Quote

Please visit our sponsor:

AikiWeb Sponsored Links - Place your Aikido link here for only $10!



Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Baseline skillset eyrie Non-Aikido Martial Traditions 1633 05-23-2008 01:35 PM
Mixing Aikido with other martial arts Guilty Spark General 146 05-04-2008 10:10 AM
Women and Everybody Else in Aikido George S. Ledyard Teaching 113 03-16-2008 07:27 PM
For Ted Ehara - Boundary of your aikido? billybob General 123 12-18-2006 04:52 AM
Propostarganização do Aikido em Portugal kimusubi0 French 0 05-01-2004 02:30 AM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 06:07 AM.



vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2014 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
----------
Copyright 1997-2014 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
----------
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
plainlaid-picaresque outchasing-protistan explicantia-altarage seaford-stellionate