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Old 05-15-2007, 10:00 AM   #1
antonis paps
 
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Tai Sabaki

Hello akidokas,

I train in aikido for nearly 1.5 years and just received 6th kyu,
i am not in a rush for receiving kyu, (though i have learned a lot of techniques)

Maybe because of that i have just realized that the most important thing of aikido is tai-sabaki.
I think in the end of your journey when you 've learned "everything", you come back to the start
and what really distinguishes in you
is your tai sabaki that becomes your aikido..

I know it is considered to be important but i think that only a few people realize how important it is.

Now my next goal is spend a lot of time trying to perfect my tai sabaki

maybe i am wrong i dont know
but i would like the opinion of some aikidokas
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Old 05-15-2007, 11:28 AM   #2
RoyK
Dojo: Nishin Kan
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Re: Tai Sabaki

I'm a lowly 4th kyu myself, but from what I understand so far, tai sabaki IS everything, isn't it? Otherwise we're just bending joints, like in the warmup.

As for myself, I find that solo practice of ashi sabaki, te sabaki and tai sabaki helps me with making the movements more natural, but I need partners in order to make them more efficient and fluid, and therefore more effective.

To sum my understanding so far: I can solo practice to perfect what I know, but what I know needs to be perfected with partner practice
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Old 05-15-2007, 11:31 AM   #3
SeiserL
 
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Re: Tai Sabaki

IMHO, to get the important body turning down, get the foot work right.

Lynn Seiser PhD
Yondan Aikido & FMA/JKD
We do not rise to the level of our expectations, but fall to the level of our training. Train well. KWATZ!
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Old 05-15-2007, 04:51 PM   #4
James Davis
 
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Re: Tai Sabaki

Quote:
Lynn Seiser wrote: View Post
IMHO, to get the important body turning down, get the foot work right.
I agree. Everything changes when we get moving.

"The only difference between Congress and drunken sailors is that drunken sailors spend their own money." -Tom Feeney, representative from Florida
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Old 05-15-2007, 07:46 PM   #5
antonis paps
 
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Re: Tai Sabaki

What i mean is to have tai sabaki in every move in every second.

Τὰ πάντα ῥεῖ , What Flows, Is.
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Old 05-15-2007, 08:06 PM   #6
aikidoc
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Re: Tai Sabaki

Tai sabaki is key to learning to set up a technique and it helps train the body to respond to attacks appropriately. If you can't set up the technique the throw or takedown is meaningless since you are likely forcing it with muscle to make it work. You come out of the Toyoda lineage and he, rest his soul, stressed tai sabaki.
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Old 05-15-2007, 08:22 PM   #7
antonis paps
 
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Re: Tai Sabaki

Quote:
John Riggs wrote: View Post
Tai sabaki is key to learning to set up a technique and it helps train the body to respond to attacks appropriately. If you can't set up the technique the throw or takedown is meaningless since you are likely forcing it with muscle to make it work. You come out of the Toyoda lineage and he, rest his soul, stressed tai sabaki.
You 've trained under toyota.. did you knew koliopoulos,my sensei?
For what i 've seen in my sensei he must have been a great teacher
Did you have any training under tohei?
I 've read somewhere that ki society isn't what it used to be anymore..is it true?

Sorry about the loads of questions

Τὰ πάντα ῥεῖ , What Flows, Is.
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Old 05-15-2007, 10:36 PM   #8
aikidoc
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Re: Tai Sabaki

yes, I was in the organization for several years. I saw him at seminars periodically. No Tohei connection although I started in Ki Society.
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Old 05-15-2007, 11:17 PM   #9
xuzen
 
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Re: Tai Sabaki

Quote:
Antonis Paps wrote: View Post
Hello akidokas,

I train in aikido for nearly 1.5 years and just received 6th kyu,
i am not in a rush for receiving kyu, (though i have learned a lot of techniques)

Maybe because of that i have just realized that the most important thing of aikido is tai-sabaki.
I think in the end of your journey when you 've learned "everything", you come back to the start
and what really distinguishes in you
is your tai sabaki that becomes your aikido..

I know it is considered to be important but i think that only a few people realize how important it is.

Now my next goal is spend a lot of time trying to perfect my tai sabaki

maybe i am wrong i dont know
but i would like the opinion of some aikidokas
Having a good Tai (Body)-Sabaki (Movement) skill is the different between having to do the technique with minimum effort to create maximum effect versus muscling through.

Tai-Sabaki concept is present in aiki-do, ju-jutsu, kara-te and most Japanese Martial Art IIRC.

IMO, tai sabaki is a very important skill to possess.

Boon.

SHOMEN-ATE (TM), the solution to 90% of aikido and life's problems.
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Old 05-18-2007, 06:40 AM   #10
Stefan Stenudd
 
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Opening the door

I also regard taisabaki, the evasive step, as a fundamental thing in aikido. It should not be done as a way of escaping the attack, though, but as a way of letting it through - like opening the door for someone. Then, the taisabaki movement is exactly where the energies of uke and tori are joined ( ), and the situation is changed from one of attack-defense into, well, a kind of dance

Stefan Stenudd
My aikido website: http://www.stenudd.com/aikido/
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Old 05-18-2007, 08:37 AM   #11
Dirk Hanss
 
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Re: Tai Sabaki

Just a few thoughts from an old 3rd kyu:

As Boon pointed out, tai-sabaki is not only footwork, but body movement. Your body is the centre of your universe. Whil you move your body, you move the (your) universe and an unharmonized attacker has to follow (unless you run away too fast ). So in this case tai-sabaki is all aikido - or as Stefan said, kind of dancing - as an exercise you dance alone, in aikido practice you dance with a partner, and - if and when you got it - you can dance with someone who does not intend to does, even doesn't realize dancing with you, while he wanted to harm you.

From my own experience - tai-sabaki as footwork AND body movement is very essential. I often see beginners, who seem to be nailed on the mat - feet fixed with cement or even concrete - no steps - no turn possible. I cannot believe, that I ever moved like this . So obviously that is the first lesson from tai-sabaki: Move your feet freely!
But when someone starts to move his feet, his body is still doing strange movements - out of balance - (badly directed) power vs. power an so on. So after a few years I believe I managed this quite well - still some odds and missing connections to the partner's ki, but not too bad.

Recently I started doing some advanced kumi-tachi with higher speed. And it seems as if there was glue on the mat. While concentrating on bokken and body, my feet only move slowly, they are not free. And then my centre does not move as it should, too much bound to Newton's lex inertiae, as well going back after proceeding, changing direction, turning, etc.

So yes, while there are some needs to know how to do the technique, the key is body movement (tai-sabaki).

But my bigger problem in aikido seems to be even more important, is perceiving uke's ki, power, strength and direction, how to react to it or even lead it. Starting to achieve this is the key to do good technique on non-cooperative (uncommon or unused behaving) uke. Mastering it would probably even been to get beyond the need of doing technique, you just move appropriately.

And just one other point to mention:
whatever truth I found, was true - for that moment. Some small parts persisted a while. But very often the truth I saw a few months or a year later, was totally different from that before. Very often I do not care, as I do not recall my 'old truth', but sometimes I am reminded to it by people stating something, I said or would have said similarily before. And now I think totally different. And my teacher's comments seem nearly to be the opposite of what they were a year before. It can be irritating, but at last it is always the truth for one moment - one state of skill, ability, knowledge, and insight.

Best regards

Dirk
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Old 05-23-2007, 07:14 PM   #12
antonis paps
 
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Re: Tai Sabaki

Quote:
Dirk Hanss wrote: View Post
Just a few thoughts from an old 3rd kyu:

As Boon pointed out, tai-sabaki is not only footwork, but body movement. Your body is the centre of your universe. Whil you move your body, you move the (your) universe and an unharmonized attacker has to follow (unless you run away too fast ). So in this case tai-sabaki is all aikido - or as Stefan said, kind of dancing - as an exercise you dance alone, in aikido practice you dance with a partner, and - if and when you got it - you can dance with someone who does not intend to does, even doesn't realize dancing with you, while he wanted to harm you.

From my own experience - tai-sabaki as footwork AND body movement is very essential. I often see beginners, who seem to be nailed on the mat - feet fixed with cement or even concrete - no steps - no turn possible. I cannot believe, that I ever moved like this . So obviously that is the first lesson from tai-sabaki: Move your feet freely!
But when someone starts to move his feet, his body is still doing strange movements - out of balance - (badly directed) power vs. power an so on. So after a few years I believe I managed this quite well - still some odds and missing connections to the partner's ki, but not too bad.

Recently I started doing some advanced kumi-tachi with higher speed. And it seems as if there was glue on the mat. While concentrating on bokken and body, my feet only move slowly, they are not free. And then my centre does not move as it should, too much bound to Newton's lex inertiae, as well going back after proceeding, changing direction, turning, etc.

So yes, while there are some needs to know how to do the technique, the key is body movement (tai-sabaki).

But my bigger problem in aikido seems to be even more important, is perceiving uke's ki, power, strength and direction, how to react to it or even lead it. Starting to achieve this is the key to do good technique on non-cooperative (uncommon or unused behaving) uke. Mastering it would probably even been to get beyond the need of doing technique, you just move appropriately.

And just one other point to mention:
whatever truth I found, was true - for that moment. Some small parts persisted a while. But very often the truth I saw a few months or a year later, was totally different from that before. Very often I do not care, as I do not recall my 'old truth', but sometimes I am reminded to it by people stating something, I said or would have said similarily before. And now I think totally different. And my teacher's comments seem nearly to be the opposite of what they were a year before. It can be irritating, but at last it is always the truth for one moment - one state of skill, ability, knowledge, and insight.

Best regards

Dirk
Dear dirk
I found your thoughts very interesting
Though I will pursuit as i train the perfection of my tai sabaki.
Who knows maybe i caught my truth in aikido in the instantaneity of the moment ,as- o-sensei often said.

Τὰ πάντα ῥεῖ , What Flows, Is.
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Old 05-23-2007, 07:25 PM   #13
antonis paps
 
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Re: Opening the door

Quote:
Stefan Stenudd wrote: View Post
I also regard taisabaki, the evasive step, as a fundamental thing in aikido. It should not be done as a way of escaping the attack, though, but as a way of letting it through - like opening the door for someone. Then, the taisabaki movement is exactly where the energies of uke and tori are joined ( ), and the situation is changed from one of attack-defense into, well, a kind of dance
Dear Stefan Stenudd

I very much appreciate your reply..
I will keep these things in mind.
(you are one of my favorite aikidoists )
Hopefully when i come to sweden for my practice in medicine I will come and train in your dojo.

Τὰ πάντα ῥεῖ , What Flows, Is.
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