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Old 03-28-2007, 06:31 PM   #26
Aikibu
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Re: Is this Yokomenuchi?

Quote:
Paul Nowicki wrote: View Post
if you look at this video of a fool fighting a MMA guy, you will see that grabbing the hand, arm is a pretty effective attack, when followed by punching .. check out the time of 2:48.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gEDaCIDvj6I

Hand / arm grabs are not all that innefective or uncommon I think....
I sense a common symantic misperception here, and perhaps I have contributed to it. Everyone starts out "Grabbing" as does everyone "start" with Shomen strikes as has been pointed out by a few here very rarely is this used in advanced Aikido Techniques. Students start out this way to learn a vast number of things about Aikido. Hopefully if one progresses enough they advance towards the use of Atemi, Throws, and more advanced versions of the techniques. Being Martial is a function of the Aikidoka's spirit and any technique even "grabbing" can be effective in this manner. However using basic wrist grabbing and expecting it to "work" without (learned) Martial intent or against another experianced Martial Artist is foolish at best.

As for the You Tube video I'd like to point out that one heck of allot of folks try to "grab" Chuck Liddel when they fight him, and his Martial Intent is not to be grabbed but to beat you in the ground.So far he does that with some regularity against "grabbers" aka grapplers.

I think this is the norm among advanced Martial Artists even High Ranking Judoka who fight in Pride focus all of thier energy on strikes unless/until an opportunity shows up to take thier opponent to the ground.

Aikido is something different all together but the first thing we learn is to make that "connection" with our opponent and almost all Aikido (as well as Aikijujitsu and a host of other "Aiki" disciplines) "styles" do this by grasping your wrist.

William Hazen
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Old 03-29-2007, 10:26 AM   #27
jss
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Re: Is this Yokomenuchi?

When looking at the different yokomens in aikido it is not that much the arm that puzzles me, but the feet.
So when doing yokomen, do you move in a straight line towards uke or at an angle?

Joep
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Old 03-29-2007, 11:00 AM   #28
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Re: Is this Yokomenuchi?

Quote:
Joep Schuurkes wrote: View Post
When looking at the different yokomens in aikido it is not that much the arm that puzzles me, but the feet.
So when doing yokomen, do you move in a straight line towards uke or at an angle?

Joep
Angle, at the dojo I train at.

Josh Reyer

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Th'assay so harde, so sharpe the conquerynge...
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Old 03-29-2007, 11:05 AM   #29
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Re: Is this Yokomenuchi?

I trained with a friend for a short time who was quite skilled at Kishaba-juku Shorin-ryu karate. Nothing formal, mind you... just drills and playful sparring. Despite his considerable skill, I was able to make contact just about every time I punched him. It took him a bit to figure out why, but once he did, I was unable to connect.

As it turns out, he had never trained with someone who didn't punch the same way he did.

Michael Hacker
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Old 03-29-2007, 11:10 AM   #30
Janet Rosen
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Re: Is this Yokomenuchi?

I also, in the USA, in USAF dojos, was taught specifically to start yokoman as if it was shomenuchi, and that it was the hip turning (yes from an angled entry) that gave the direction to the downward diagonal of the strike. The clear impression I had is that we were basing the attack on weapons attacks.
What I have heard denigrated from my earliest days in training is a particular, and to my eye, peculiar yokoman where not only is the hand at the ear, but the elbow is out and the attacker's face thrusting forward. Not a posture I associate with holding a weapon - ? I have seen this sloppy uncontrolled striking in many dojos, and seen it apparently sanctioned because it was widespread and uncorrected by instructors.

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Old 03-29-2007, 08:03 PM   #31
George S. Ledyard
 
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Re: Is this Yokomenuchi?

Quote:
William Hazen wrote: View Post
Agreed. Yokomenuchi and Shomenuchi are training tools and are no more "martial" than grabbing a wrist is.
These are not truly empty hand attacks. No empty hand art attacks that way. However, give someone a weapon, even an untrained person with a tire iron, you'll see what we would call a yokomen attack. A person with a knife in the reverse grip might do either a yokomen or a shomen attack (although the target would be a bit different with the shomen attack, it would still be a vertical attack).

In empty hand the equivalent strike to a shomen uchi is a hammer fist directly to the face. The yokomen is a knife hand strike but it doesn't have anything like the arc our yokomen does because it isn't a stylized cut but rather a strike so it comes out a lot more linearly. The target would be the temple, the side of the neck, or the collar bone usually.

We train with stylized attacks but they do have very close equivalents in more applied technique.

George S. Ledyard
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Old 03-29-2007, 08:51 PM   #32
Aikibu
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Re: Is this Yokomenuchi?

Quote:
George S. Ledyard wrote: View Post
These are not truly empty hand attacks. No empty hand art attacks that way. However, give someone a weapon, even an untrained person with a tire iron, you'll see what we would call a yokomen attack. A person with a knife in the reverse grip might do either a yokomen or a shomen attack (although the target would be a bit different with the shomen attack, it would still be a vertical attack).

In empty hand the equivalent strike to a shomen uchi is a hammer fist directly to the face. The yokomen is a knife hand strike but it doesn't have anything like the arc our yokomen does because it isn't a stylized cut but rather a strike so it comes out a lot more linearly. The target would be the temple, the side of the neck, or the collar bone usually.

We train with stylized attacks but they do have very close equivalents in more applied technique.
Thanks for the reply Sensei. However I only agree in part. Shoman and Yokomen are directly related to the use of the Japanese Sword and Koryu approaches to defending against it. Only an untrained person (as you have mentioned ) might attack you this way. All I can say is thank god for the fact most people are untrained. LOL However even our Aikido (where the use of the edged weapons like the sword shares in equal importance with the congruent empty hand technique) has serious deficiancies when it comes to empty hand defense against a skilled opponent with a knife or most edged weapons. They certainly do not use yokomen or shoman attacks.

If you read the Journal of Asian Martial Arts I highly recommend picking up Volume 15 Issue 4. There is a very enlightening article by John McCurry and Eliot Lee Grossman titled "The Top Ten Errors of Martial Artists Defending Against a Blade."

Mr McCurry really opened my eyes to how deficent most Gendai Arts are in thier syllubus regarding defense against edged weapons. Combined with some basic wrong assumptions about an art's effectiveness against an armed adversary could lead one to serious trouble if one was ever confronted with someone even moderately skilled with a blade.

Mr McCurry's roots are in Jujitsu and Pencak-
Silat. His knowledge of the subject appears to be very comprehensive as he cites diverse sources from Yoshida-Kenji, Youkiyoshi Takamura, our Dear Friend Stan Pranin, Don Angier, and many others.

Since he is only an hour south of me I am going to make a point of visiting him. Why? As he so rightly points out next to a gun the most deadly weapon an Aikidoka will ever face on the street is a knife and since our Aikido measures itself by how effective we are against other Martial Arts I currently find our basic and advanced Yokenmenuchi and Shomenuchi sorely lacking in effectiveness.

I hope to see you again at the next Aikido Journal Friendship Demonstration.

William Hazen
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Old 03-29-2007, 10:04 PM   #33
George S. Ledyard
 
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Re: Is this Yokomenuchi?

Quote:
William Hazen wrote: View Post
Thanks for the reply Sensei. However I only agree in part. Shoman and Yokomen are directly related to the use of the Japanese Sword and Koryu approaches to defending against it. Only an untrained person (as you have mentioned ) might attack you this way. All I can say is thank god for the fact most people are untrained. LOL However even our Aikido (where the use of the edged weapons like the sword shares in equal importance with the congruent empty hand technique) has serious deficiancies when it comes to empty hand defense against a skilled opponent with a knife or most edged weapons. They certainly do not use yokomen or shoman attacks.

If you read the Journal of Asian Martial Arts I highly recommend picking up Volume 15 Issue 4. There is a very enlightening article by John McCurry and Eliot Lee Grossman titled "The Top Ten Errors of Martial Artists Defending Against a Blade."

Mr McCurry really opened my eyes to how deficent most Gendai Arts are in thier syllubus regarding defense against edged weapons. Combined with some basic wrong assumptions about an art's effectiveness against an armed adversary could lead one to serious trouble if one was ever confronted with someone even moderately skilled with a blade.

Mr McCurry's roots are in Jujitsu and Pencak-
Silat. His knowledge of the subject appears to be very comprehensive as he cites diverse sources from Yoshida-Kenji, Youkiyoshi Takamura, our Dear Friend Stan Pranin, Don Angier, and many others.

Since he is only an hour south of me I am going to make a point of visiting him. Why? As he so rightly points out next to a gun the most deadly weapon an Aikidoka will ever face on the street is a knife and since our Aikido measures itself by how effective we are against other Martial Arts I currently find our basic and advanced Yokenmenuchi and Shomenuchi sorely lacking in effectiveness.

I hope to see you again at the next Aikido Journal Friendship Demonstration.

William Hazen
Hi William,
I agree with everything you said. As I have said before, I don't believe that Aikido is fundamentally an empty hand system... the logic of everything we do came from weapons (the assumption would be that both opponents are armed). I didn't mean to imply that these attacks were intended to be anything other than what you referred to... I just meant that you could find some close equivalents whether in attacks from untrained folks with weapons or certain empty hand techniques.

It is absolutely true that someone trained with an edged weapon will not attack with anything like what we do in Aikido basics.

George S. Ledyard
Aikido Eastside
Bellevue, WA
Aikido Eastside
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Old 03-29-2007, 10:30 PM   #34
akiy
 
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Re: Is this Yokomenuchi?

Personally, I think that attacks such as shomenuchi, yokomenuchi, and the various grabs like katatedori are tools to develop one's aikido -- both in the roles of nage/tori and uke.

I have received shomenuchi and yokomenuchi from my instructor when he was uke that has put me on my butt as he employed the same principles of body organization, kuzushi, alignment, and such as he would when he is nage; the same has been true in an attack such as katatedori (with which he has almost planted my face into the mat).

-- Jun

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Old 03-30-2007, 07:19 AM   #35
Marc Abrams
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Re: Is this Yokomenuchi?

Jun:

Are you implying that Aikidoists are actually effective martial artists and know how to strike effectively? Are you trying to ruin our reputation as wannabe-martial artists living in a new age fantasy?

Outside of the humor, I agree 100% with your comment. It has been talked about many times (George even wrote a great article on the subject) in that we can best improve our Aikido when somebody can attack in an authentic manner.

marc abrams
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Old 03-30-2007, 11:45 AM   #36
Largo
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Re: Is this Yokomenuchi?

It's been mentioned before, but there are different ways of doing the same thing. When I was in Japan, I learned a version of shomen which was an upward strike to the face (in aikikai). Our uchideshi also had this peculiar penchant for doing shomen style strikes aimed at the collarbone. (i.e. typical shomen strike, just not at the face)

I would say that it would be good to be able to do the technique from either strike, and not just limit yourself to one. (But that's just me)
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Old 03-30-2007, 01:04 PM   #37
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Re: Is this Yokomenuchi?

It is very interesting, reading this thread about right yokomenuchi. There is good reason to teach ONE firm strike for kihon waza at beginner level and keep all students doing the same to ease the answering technique as shown by sensei.
And then I would say, try several variations. If someone insists, that only one strike is allowed in aikido - this could lead to an endless discussion like 'is aikido effective?' et alt.

Nevertheless, on my junior level, my sensei tells us, that uke should protect himself as good as possible, which leads to the 'Japanese' version, rather than the 'native American' tomahawk version, taken from old low level Western movies).

Cheers

Dirk
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Old 03-30-2007, 01:21 PM   #38
Michael Douglas
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Re: Is this Yokomenuchi?

Quote:
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Martial? Hmm...
Really, would you attack anybody with a yokomenuchi - done in either style? How many times have you seen either style of yokomenuchi done in an actual confrontation?
Both of them are learning tools, with their pluses and minuses, but I wouldn't classify either one as "martial".
Quote:
Paul Nowicki wrote: View Post
Almost everytime I see someone swing a bottle or most any object used as a weapon.
Quote:
Christopher Li wrote: View Post
The usual answer, of course, but I don't buy it. If you're practicing for a weapon than why empty hand? Especially given that there are times when that kind of attack is specifically practiced with a weapon in Aikido.
I completely agree with Chris on this, well said.
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Old 03-30-2007, 02:48 PM   #39
Largo
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Re: Is this Yokomenuchi?

I'm just curious- does anyone else here try doing shomen/ yokomen drills with focus mitts?
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Old 06-08-2007, 01:15 AM   #40
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Re: Is this Yokomenuchi?

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Gordon Biddy wrote: View Post
In Japan I was taught to start yokomen as if it were shomen: straight over your head, then swing slightly to one side and strike the side of tori's neck or head. The idea is not to reveal to your enemy (partner in the dojo) how you are going to strike before you strike. If they see a yokomen coming, it is their advantage as they can better guard against it etc...

But my current sensei explains that proper yokomen 'in this dojo' starts with your hand by your ear, and cuts down across partner's chest (not neck or head).

I know there are more ways than one to practice most Aikido techniques, yet the Yokomen I practiced in Japan seem obviously superior to the one being taught at my current dojo.

I'm getting tired of being told how 'incorrect' Aikido in Japan is taught. Aikikai is Aikikai, I thought. But I suppose this is another case of shutting up and doing what is taught out of respect for sensei, even if it seems inferior.

Or the other possibility: am I totally misunderstanding something?

GB
Proper yokomenuchi....

Get uke to hold a beer/spirit bottle. Ask him/her to swing at your temple.

There, non-ritualistic yokomen-uchi.

Boon.

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Old 06-08-2007, 06:57 AM   #41
philippe willaume
 
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Re: Is this Yokomenuchi?

Hello
Well I would say there is few yokomen and shomen in there
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y_uZmN16tBo.

As well we could assimilate shomen (especially the raising one) as a straight punch or palm strike) and yokomen as a palm strike to the side of the head or a hook
The side of the head is full of high value target, the temple, the ear, the lower jaw , the side of the neck. (Even the medieval fighting books mention themů). so I think I yokomen like attack has its place and as long as you do the "martial yokomen" with intent, I think there is little to change to turn it into Mr Bass Ruten palm strikes.

When we work with techniques, we all ways have Uke working in the true time of the hand body and foot (or the false time of foot body and hand according of the shape of the strike) when he attacks.
That is not the most efficient/smartest way to attack, as it gives Nage easier access to control of time and distance (which is what aikido equates to in terms of fighting).

But I would say that what ever art you are doing you will find similar formalisation in order to teach and to train.

phil

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Old 06-08-2007, 12:26 PM   #42
charyuop
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Re: Is this Yokomenuchi?

Wow, Bus Rutten is the real Aiki spirit hee hee.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D3K-m...elated&search=
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