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Old 04-04-2007, 02:10 PM   #201
KIT
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Re: Ki-Aikido or Taiji - effectiveness in developing Qi?

Nah, Cady, MMA will take a little longer to become TMA. Its just now becoming the new "Taebo," so it will take a little while.

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Internals in more demanding venues
I've responded to this stuff before. Rob has as well. We have repeatedly told of meeting with Judoka, Bjjers, MMAers, Karateka etc etc.

It's difficult to get a man to understand something, if his salary is based on his not understandning it.
Nah, more like its difficult for Judo, BJJ, MMA guys to understand exactly whom you have "met," and whether they are a worthy comparison, when you never give a name, you don't appear on any forum devoted to the aforementioned arts talking about them and "what you can do" to them there, and the only people who seem to be talking about meeting you are aikidoka who admittedly don't train in MMA.

As the former are based in performance biased training methodologies, they want to see it work against a proven exponent of MMA (or one of its base methods) before you are given much credence.

Heck, you don't even have to do it personally - just be the primary coach of a guy who can be successful at it.

Matt Hume doesn't really fight MMA, but he is a universally respected coach and judge. Coincidentally, he's in Seattle of all places. You should drop by and share your thoughts with them next time you are in town....

...or in Olympia with Jeff Monson's American Top Team..

..or come on down to Portland - you can stay at my place free of charge (other than showing me your stuff.)

I know guys from Quest's fight team and am training at an Enson Inoue affiliated gym now - Enson is here every other month or so. If I told them you had a new way of training MMA that would make it so that they could not be taken down they would all LOVE to meet you in person, of that you can be sure.

You or your guys don't have to go against the monsters - just the guys doing reasonably well in local comps.

One would think you would jump at the chance to introduce a training methodology such as this if you are being that successful with it.

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Years ago men were sucked into believing the clap trap handed to them by Martial teachers. That the protectionism, in-house isolated training, single style training method and twenty years of repeating the kata would produce......something.
Then the UFC and pride
No one was willing to believe that in a few years training time-young men could be trained to virtually take these teachers apart.
It was unthinkable.
It changed the way men thought about the "twenty year man" Asian model.
Good point. Though the critical difference is in those young men are putting their skills and their bodies on the line, in public, and proving it, not talking about it on the Internet.

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Now we have internal skills. A very small hitherto unknown group of men from the Asian arts have become independant. They are equipped, with skills of a type that most in the arts have no real knowledge of and cannot address with their arts skills. Moreover these internal artists are choosing to pursue it in more modern combative forms. And they have just begun to openly show-most of those in the conventional arts lack the skills to handle the internal knowledge,and now a few are combining it with MMA.
It is unthinkable.

There are interesting days ahead
Well, more accurately - it seems a few are combining it with MMA and using it on aikidoka and taiji practitioners. That's like shooting fish in a barrel. Others, and their students, are actually competing with it and being successful. You aren't among them.

There are plenty of guys out there who have never been in a fight and never been in a tactical operation who teach all kinds of goofy crap to the non-tactical people who eat it up.

All the while the real fighters and operators are laughing.

I think for some of us on this thread, its again not about whether it can work - its whether you can make it work in any worthwhile way, against a worthwhile performance measure (i.e. a recognized skilled fighter in these disciplines), as you repeatedly say you can.

Have you ever even rolled with a BJJ black belt?


I think I'll cross post this link over on Sherdog or BJJ.org and some others and see if anybody there is familiar with you and your stuff. Gotta be someone amongst the Judo, BJJ and MMA guys you have done this to that is on line...

Last edited by KIT : 04-04-2007 at 02:13 PM.
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Old 04-04-2007, 02:26 PM   #202
DonMagee
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Re: Ki-Aikido or Taiji - effectiveness in developing Qi?

Quote:
Robert John wrote: View Post
More likely that they'd penalize you for being too "passive." I competed in a Judo comp back in college, at the time I was doing Iliqchuan, and had a tiny tiny grasp on structure. Combine that with Sam's liking to always have "hands on top" I used the sticking hands he drilled into us to keep the other guy from getting a grip on me...surprise surprise I got warned for "stalling" lol. The kid from the other camp was one of Jason Morris's students and was pretty frustrated that he couldn't get a grip to execute a clean throw.
Well, I think its not very useful if you can't use it to engage but only defend. I can defend judo throws basically forever without internal skills. I just don't engage. Its very very very hard to throw someone who doesn't want to engage you. But if you could engage and keep your internal power,now that would be something.

Although there is no rule against stalling in many grappling tournaments. Some tournaments don't even keep score for the first 5 or 10 minutes.

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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Old 04-04-2007, 05:20 PM   #203
Cady Goldfield
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Re: Ki-Aikido or Taiji - effectiveness in developing Qi?

Quote:
Mike Haft wrote: View Post
Fair enough. I don't think it's quite that simple and allow me to explain why. I may be doing MMA as an idea an injustice.

If you replace MMA for a second with the phrase 'keeping it real' then there are plenty of people in the aikido world who do that or at least try to. Sometimes they get stuck by the no-competition idea and have to find excuses as to why they don't enter them and you often hear 'my art is too deadly' or whatever. I've never said anything like that and never will. IMO If you know what you're doing then you know how to 'keep it real' without going to competitions or whatever, so when people ask me why I don't got to competitons I say "I don't care to play at being tough". Works for me

I dislike the reality of the MMA approach when combined with competiton, not because I don't think that 'keeping it real' is a good idea but because whenever I've seen people who follow, or attempt to follow this idea in combination with competition they cherry-pick techniques that they think will work for a specific set of rules in the ring and often throw out perfectly good and worthwhile things because they have some undefined criteria of 'what works'.

I met a guy who brazenly claimed his UFC whatever cherry-picking was far superior to aikido and claimed that aikido wristlocks were pointless and 'ineffective', he nearly screamed when I put a nikyo on him. Now that's an isolated case but the reason I mention it is because it demonstrates the weakness of the idea of combining MMA with competition IMO. How do you define 'effective'?

What if I took my sword into the ring? Is the other guy gonna be allowed to bring one? Isn't that just kendo or fencing? What if he brings a gun and I bring a bigger gun? Surely the most effective MA is nuclear war?

YMMV

Mike
Mike H.,

Bringing a nuclear warhead to a streetfight might be overkill on several levels, and probably counterproductive.

As soon as there are rules of engagement, the whole purpose of true MMA goes out the window, IMO. I'm not talkinig about the guys who want to go into a ring and fight a bunch of other guys to make money and earn acclaim, and who "cherrypick" their repertoire to fit the rules of the UFC, Pride or other commercial bout. For them, being "effective" means being the victor in a bout, while working within the rules.

Being effective "outside in the world," means survival, whether it is as the man who vanquishes an attacker and is able to walk away alive and not mortally injured, or is able to prevent the attack from ever occurring, and without harming anyone, by dint of his attitude and brinksmanship, backed up by martial skills that make the attacker think better of his plan.

When I speak of MMA, I am talking about a long history of individuals who have found training within a rarified "pure" art to be too restrictive for gaining the fighting skills they need as individuals to address the martial issues that are very real for them in their "out in the world" milieu. These are people whose chief aim is to develop fighting skills, either because they need to fight as part of their real-life environment, or because they are pursuing martial arts as an intellectual-physical study of some aspect of hoplology, and want to be as authentic in their skills as possible. This approach assumes that there are no rules.

BTW, most of the guys I train with are deeply trained in weapons arts -- the sharp, pointy kinds and long, blunt kinds -- and some train in marksmanship or gunmanship, too. I come from a background of several punch/strike/kick systems and arnis (stick fighting). It's all good; it's even better when combined with other skills rather than being stand-alone. Internal skills are a component of these tool kits that have the potential to augment and boost the effectiveness of virtually all of those martial body skills.

Today's aikido is kind of a special case, IMO, because many aikidoka take Ueshiba's Omoto Kyo philosophy as their driving motivation to practice aikido. The "no competition" part of that is a legitimate part of that belief system. For these people, I don't think it's necessary to be concerned about martial viability. Rather, I see their practice as being a moving meditation that aids in their philosophical study.

However, many people enter an aikido dojo with the idea that they will learn martial skills that will naturally make them able to contend against no-rules fighters and other trained martial artists. They're the ones who need to take a step back from their art and consider whether they are following a path that will provide the tools they seek. For them, exploring kokyu/aiki skills (preferably from their source -- the one that Ueshiba gained his from, but possibly from taiji or other CIMA) would be a step in the right direction. And it wouldn't even be MMA, technically, if those skills were derived from aikido's own root source -- Daito-ryu.

Last edited by Cady Goldfield : 04-04-2007 at 05:34 PM.
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Old 04-04-2007, 05:29 PM   #204
Cady Goldfield
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Re: Ki-Aikido or Taiji - effectiveness in developing Qi?

Quote:
Kit Leblanc wrote: View Post
Nah, Cady, MMA will take a little longer to become TMA. Its just now becoming the new "Taebo," so it will take a little while.
Kit,
You apparently didn't read my definition of MMA closely. I ain't talking about the use of "MMA" as a description of the stuff being done in rules-driven UFC bouts. Let's call that latter type, "Mixed Bag Arts" (MBA) instead, okay? "MMA" should be reserved for the ages-old tendency for individuals to experiment with stuff outside-the-box to custom tailor fighting skills to their individual needs.

The -process- is traditional because it is part of the human condition that dates back to the dawn of human creativity. We would have no arts at all, martial or otherwise, without that process. Instead, we would have a bunch of stagnant, stale "Pure" systems that never morph with the times and changes in environment. We'd still be banging on rocks with sticks and blowing into hollow bones, and calling it "music" with that attitude.
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Old 04-04-2007, 06:16 PM   #205
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Ki-Aikido or Taiji - effectiveness in developing Qi?

Cady wrote:

Quote:
When I speak of MMA, I am talking about a long history of individuals who have found training within a rarified "pure" art to be too restrictive for gaining the fighting skills they need as individuals to address the martial issues that are very real for them in their "out in the world" milieu. These are people whose chief aim is to develop fighting skills, either because they need to fight as part of their real-life environment, or because they are pursuing martial arts as an intellectual-physical study of some aspect of hoplology, and want to be as authentic in their skills as possible. This approach assumes that there are no rules.

BTW, most of the guys I train with are deeply trained in weapons arts -- the sharp, pointy kinds and long, blunt kinds -- and some train in marksmanship or gunmanship, too. I come from a background of several punch/strike/kick systems and arnis (stick fighting). It's all good; it's even better when combined with other skills rather than being stand-alone. Internal skills are a component of these tool kits that have the potential to augment and boost the effectiveness of virtually all of those martial body skills.
By your definition I fit the mold and the definition of those you talk about using MMA in real life...not in the ring.

I will tell you that I disagree with your opinion on the value of UFC type events as being worthwile as a venue to study effectiveness.

I am qualified and certified at almost every weapons fighitng range in the U.S arsenal from Barrett 50 Cal, M16/M4, M9, M249, M2, knifes, sticks, and empty handed martial arts. Also including most classes of common explosives used in the military.

I am probably about as well rounded of a warrior who trains soldiers to use ranges of fighting. We have invested many dollars, much research and collect many experiences of people that use this stuff in combat.

We see much value in MMA as defined by UFC..for what it can teach us about close fighting.

It does not discount what Mike, Rob, and Dan discuss in MA at all.

However, your logic concerning UFC as being too limited to test real martial effectiveness in an empty handed environment is simply incorrect in mine, and many of our soldiers experiences.

Kit is a SWAT member I believe. He is saying the same thing.

However...if you don't believe it...then find yourself even a B level MMA sport fighter and tell him to drop all the rules and then fight him and tell me what you think of how limited and short his skills are.

I am not saying that there are not internalist out there that can do the things you claim...however I have not seen it, nor am I going to risk my life hypothesizing or waiting for it to happen.

As many of you are fond of saying...go and feel it. Get on the Mat with one of these guys and THEN tell me how much strength they are really using as they climb all over you and disorient you cause you cannot reference them before they move on to the next move.

I get paid for doing this for a living and I have soldiers that are more than happy to try and prove that I or my instructors are dead wrong about what we are teaching...we are dead serious about our training, and I will tell you that your line of thinking will get you or someone else killed if you rely on what you are professing.

Again, it is not to say there is not value in studying arts like aikido as I think there are many benefits if you want to spend the time and the effort improving your finese...in this respect you are right.

Sorry to be so blunt, but it is something that I am very passionate about, having gotten my ass handed to me with the same mind set a few years ago.

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Old 04-04-2007, 07:16 PM   #206
Cady Goldfield
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Re: Ki-Aikido or Taiji - effectiveness in developing Qi?

Kevin,
From what I've seen over the years, the UFC itself dictates what skills are considered to have value, by dint of what it permits. I'm convinced that many of the contenders have skills that far outstrip the repertoire that they use when competing. If anything, they have to pare down what they know to a relative handful of things they can use in keeping with the rules. Then, they devise effective strategies and tactics to deal with the situations they are likely to encounter in that setting.

To be fair to UFC (which I love, BTW) and that genre, it has value in being the "most real" encounters a person can have, full-bore, without being killed or killing, to test one's strategic, tactical and physical skills. But, what happens in the UFC and Pride is not the full range of possibilities, and I don't like to see it assigned as representing all MMA.

Last edited by Cady Goldfield : 04-04-2007 at 07:20 PM.
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Old 04-04-2007, 07:54 PM   #207
Mike Sigman
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Re: Ki-Aikido or Taiji - effectiveness in developing Qi?

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
I will tell you that I disagree with your opinion on the value of UFC type events as being worthwile as a venue to study effectiveness.

I am qualified and certified at almost every weapons fighitng range in the U.S arsenal from Barrett 50 Cal, M16/M4, M9, M249, M2, knifes, sticks, and empty handed martial arts. Also including most classes of common explosives used in the military.

I am probably about as well rounded of a warrior who trains soldiers to use ranges of fighting. We have invested many dollars, much research and collect many experiences of people that use this stuff in combat.

We see much value in MMA as defined by UFC..for what it can teach us about close fighting.

It does not discount what Mike, Rob, and Dan discuss in MA at all.

However, your logic concerning UFC as being too limited to test real martial effectiveness in an empty handed environment is simply incorrect in mine, and many of our soldiers experiences.

Kit is a SWAT member I believe. He is saying the same thing.

However...if you don't believe it...then find yourself even a B level MMA sport fighter and tell him to drop all the rules and then fight him and tell me what you think of how limited and short his skills are.

I am not saying that there are not internalist out there that can do the things you claim...however I have not seen it, nor am I going to risk my life hypothesizing or waiting for it to happen.

As many of you are fond of saying...go and feel it. Get on the Mat with one of these guys and THEN tell me how much strength they are really using as they climb all over you and disorient you cause you cannot reference them before they move on to the next move.

I get paid for doing this for a living and I have soldiers that are more than happy to try and prove that I or my instructors are dead wrong about what we are teaching...we are dead serious about our training, and I will tell you that your line of thinking will get you or someone else killed if you rely on what you are professing.

Again, it is not to say there is not value in studying arts like aikido as I think there are many benefits if you want to spend the time and the effort improving your finese...in this respect you are right.

Sorry to be so blunt, but it is something that I am very passionate about, having gotten my ass handed to me with the same mind set a few years ago.
All I can say is "Jeez". How do we keep getting off-topic into who can kick who's butt? And the ever present "who in MMA have you fought?"

There's a local guy I met here who is teaching BJJ and MMA ... he's competed some, but he's not anything special. He's got some interesting stuff, though. Should I go in and tell him his stuff is no good because he personally can't kick my butt? I'd be a complete moron to act like that.... if it's useful, it's useful and I'm not going to disparage the guy and blow my own horn about all my past adventures, for chrissake.

Think of France and their attitude about "American Cooking". How many top French cooking awards have Americans won? None. Therefore, American cooking is no good, right? And Americans that think they're good.... why haven't they entered the big French competitions???? Hell... most of us never heard of any of the French cooking competitions, but we have some extremely fine cooks.

China is so big that if you take the top 25% of their brightest students... that's more students than we have in ALL of the US. We could take ALL of our jobs and give them to China and they'd STILL have an unemployment problem. They have bodyguard-level fighters that other countries pay to acquire for their leaders. These guys don't do forms, kata, etc. They practice killing 6-8 hours a day in all sorts of circumstances, big guy or small. These guys never even heard of "UFC" .... yet some westerners make their big question "oh, this guy can't be any good if he didn't fight in MMA comps". Come on. The arrogance that someone is no good if he's nobody in your own little world is just stunning. Can we get back to the topic so we can line up for another brag by someone or another chance to get an oblique putdown to someone if he isn't on the MMA boards?

YMMV,

Mike Sigman
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Old 04-04-2007, 08:42 PM   #208
eyrie
 
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Re: Ki-Aikido or Taiji - effectiveness in developing Qi?

Quote:
Howard Chan wrote: View Post
Mikes Sigman had a brief say here:

http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showth...ans#post164980

He says its the same kind of animal.

I think a common theory is that there are different variations of the way you train ki that will yield somewhat different results qualitatively (e.g. original yoga - completely nonmartial example). But it's all based on the same basic phenomena of activating muscles and fascia (and stuff???) deep inside the body that are not normally directly used in untrained people.
Well, I'm not debating this... I'm merely saying that martial usage and application of this is slightly different to simply practising yoga? Otherwise, why bother with aikido? We'd be th3 q1-m@st3r, by simply "practising yoga"????

Ignatius
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Old 04-04-2007, 08:49 PM   #209
Mike Sigman
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Re: Ki-Aikido or Taiji - effectiveness in developing Qi?

Quote:
Ignatius Teo wrote: View Post
Well, I'm not debating this... I'm merely saying that martial usage and application of this is slightly different to simply practising yoga? Otherwise, why bother with aikido? We'd be th3 q1-m@st3r, by simply "practising yoga"????
I always think of the episode where Koichi Tohei showed he could push a seiza-seated monk over, thus demonstrating the superiority of his ki over the monk's. But that's not true. Tohei was using jin/kokyu and you can have really superior ki without having any ability to manipulate forces. In fact, you can do some basic jin forces pretty darn strong without really having any qi/ki either. It's the combination of the 2, combined with the control being in the dantien that is considered a proper acquisition of ki skills.

FWIW

Mike
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Old 04-04-2007, 09:12 PM   #210
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Re: Ki-Aikido or Taiji - effectiveness in developing Qi?

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
I always think of the episode where Koichi Tohei showed he could push a seiza-seated monk over, thus demonstrating the superiority of his ki over the monk's. But that's not true. Tohei was using jin/kokyu and you can have really superior ki without having any ability to manipulate forces. In fact, you can do some basic jin forces pretty darn strong without really having any qi/ki either. It's the combination of the 2, combined with the control being in the dantien that is considered a proper acquisition of ki skills.
So what is qi (the part of that is not jin)?
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Old 04-04-2007, 09:20 PM   #211
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Re: Ki-Aikido or Taiji - effectiveness in developing Qi?

Quote:
Don Magee wrote: View Post
Well, I think its not very useful if you can't use it to engage but only defend. I can defend judo throws basically forever without internal skills. I just don't engage. Its very very very hard to throw someone who doesn't want to engage you. But if you could engage and keep your internal power,now that would be something.

Although there is no rule against stalling in many grappling tournaments. Some tournaments don't even keep score for the first 5 or 10 minutes.
Like I said, it was back when my skill level was just getting to the preschool stage
Think you're missing something here, I was engaging. I wasn't playing the grab ass grip game, I had my hands on top of his wrists, and basically controlled his balance so I was free to strike if I wanted (not within the Judo ruleset I know). Unfortunately I sucked at judo/shuai jiao type throws at the time.

Some food for thought though... so for someone who only had a limited amount of time training under Sam (maybe a year at that point) against said judo kid who spent 6 years under Jason Morris's (ex olympic contender) camp...what does that say about Judo if he's unable to throw someone who's being passive?
Whether or not the guy is being passive shouldn't make a difference I know it didn't make a difference with most of the other guy's I've touched hands with that were better than myself.
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Old 04-04-2007, 09:29 PM   #212
KIT
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Re: Ki-Aikido or Taiji - effectiveness in developing Qi?

Quote:
Cady Goldfield wrote: View Post
Kit,
You apparently didn't read my definition of MMA closely....
Well, since you posted it AFTER I posted, no I didn't.

Its a good one, though and I agree with it - that's what I do - not MMA for the ring. One of the guys I trained with calls it "mixed Marshal arts" LOL.

But now we're changing the definition, aren't we? Nice side step.

If we are seriously now going to bring the knives, guns, modern combatives into it, then you'll need to do a lot of reading before we can get much further. If you are training the way you describe this place is a gold mine:

www.totalprotectioninteractive.com

Come join us, we have people with far more qualifications there who have been doing what you are describing for years - AS WELL as ring based MMA. Some of them do both!! Lots of cops and soldiers do.

Dang, Mike,

I thought you were above the whole MMA thing. You don't find a way to mention it in nearly every post so I figured your interests were simply in the pursuit of the art.

You make my point with your own local BJJ/MMA guy. There are a lot of them out there that aren't very special - that in fact don't actually do "real" MMA at all, and many who do a class here and there while they are "training for the cage." That is why saying on "I've done this to MMA guys" means so little without a name to go with it.

And did you actually write BODYGUARD LEVEL FIGHTERS!?!

BODYGUARDS?? Whoa! They practice killing 6-8 hours a day? Man! Where do they find the training partners?? And what do they do with the bodies??



Just like with internal arts, you really learn how much a person actually understands about CQB, DT, tactical apps, PSD etc. when you read posts like that.

Thanks, though!

So far, no replies on the other boards re: Dan, although I may have to re-assess. One guy said he found a pic of Dan.

http://www.zoominfo.com/people/Harde...049743959.aspx

He didn't tell us about his Northern Ireland military experience and his Arabic skills - NO WONDER he's so hard to get hold of some times....... (James Bond music begins...)

Last edited by KIT : 04-04-2007 at 09:43 PM. Reason: spelling, grammar
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Old 04-04-2007, 09:54 PM   #213
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Re: Ki-Aikido or Taiji - effectiveness in developing Qi?

Cady,

Quote:
To be fair to UFC (which I love, BTW) and that genre, it has value in being the "most real" encounters a person can have, full-bore, without being killed or killing, to test one's strategic, tactical and physical skills. But, what happens in the UFC and Pride is not the full range of possibilities, and I don't like to see it assigned as representing all MMA.
Yes, I agree with you on this. It most certainly does not. We make sure we point this out very and demonstrate the other ranges and things that must be considered, and that yes, UFC is a sport and it assumes away many aspects.

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Old 04-04-2007, 10:17 PM   #214
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Ki-Aikido or Taiji - effectiveness in developing Qi?

Mike wrote:

Quote:
All I can say is "Jeez". How do we keep getting off-topic into who can kick who's butt? And the ever present "who in MMA have you fought?"
I never start the MMA discussion, I only step up to discuss it once I see the conversation drift into the area and in which I have some experience and an opinion.

I'd be happy to sit here at listen to the internal, QI discussion without going into this area if the information being put out was indeed factual, correct, and discussed in a matter in which those that are professing knowledge are qualified in the area in which they are spring boarding into.

Who have I fought in MMA?

I had a few nameless fights in toughman contest back in the early 1990s before we called this MMA and era commonly referred to as "Before Gracie". No one knew what they were doing...it was a stupid slugfest and served to validate my ignorance concerning fighting skill (I was a TMA/Karate guy then...had never even heard of aikido or BJJ at that point).

I have a few grappling tournaments (no strikes) under my belt.

More recently I have rolled NHB with many, many soldiers...varying degrees of experience in combat scenarios in trainng.

I have studied with the following people that all have MMA records and while we have not gone full out, only done training....all of these guys have rolled me up well thinking about there grocery list and things they need to do that day....enough to appreciate what MMA brings to the table.

Steve Van Fleet
http://www.sherdog.com/fightfinder/f...FighterID=5087
Rodolfo Amaro
http://www.sherdog.com/fightfinder/f...ighterID=11722
Roberto Traven
http://www.sherdog.com/fightfinder/f...?FighterID=142

I find it interesting that we have never ventured into the counter argument. that is, how does MMA fit into internal martial arts?

Yet a few people venture into the area of MMA to discuss how they think internal skills apply, yet they demonstrate a lack of knowledge in this area, I offer a counter perspective that is contrary and I am the guy that is steering the conversation in this direction????

I'd never have do this in the Jin, KI/QI area of discussion...but maybe we should explore the inverse...how does reality and non-compliance fit into internal skills instead of the converse? which everyone seems to be an expert on!

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Old 04-04-2007, 10:40 PM   #215
eyrie
 
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Re: Ki-Aikido or Taiji - effectiveness in developing Qi?

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Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
I always think of the episode where Koichi Tohei showed he could push a seiza-seated monk over, thus demonstrating the superiority of his ki over the monk's. But that's not true. Tohei was using jin/kokyu and you can have really superior ki without having any ability to manipulate forces. In fact, you can do some basic jin forces pretty darn strong without really having any qi/ki either. It's the combination of the 2, combined with the control being in the dantien that is considered a proper acquisition of ki skills.

FWIW

Mike
Thanks, that's precisely what I'm getting at.... my wife has really strong qi (from years of singing)... you can bounce a quarter off her six-pack... and she's really loud too... for a dimunitive woman but in terms of her ability to use jin/kokyu in any sort of martial context is pretty much nil.

So back to the question at hand, and MMA breast-beating aside, is Ki-Aikido or Taiji effective in developing qi... I think is the wrong question to be asking...

Ignatius
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Old 04-04-2007, 10:40 PM   #216
KIT
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Re: Ki-Aikido or Taiji - effectiveness in developing Qi?

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Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
Mike wrote:

I never start the MMA discussion, I only step up to discuss it once I see the conversation drift into the area and in which I have some experience and an opinion.
As I recall, the MMA angle came in when when people were discussing what they could and were doing to men with Judo, BJJ and MMA experience.....

The unanswered question remains what men with Judo, BJJ and MMA experience?

Now it seems to be turned on its head, with a new definition of MMA that really only exists within some small groups of integrated combatives practitioners.

We could ask "who amongst the people becoming well known in the integrated combatives community have you trained with" but then we'd REALLY be going off on a tangent....

Last edited by KIT : 04-04-2007 at 10:42 PM. Reason: For Emphasis
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Old 04-05-2007, 12:06 AM   #217
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Re: Ki-Aikido or Taiji - effectiveness in developing Qi?

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Ignatius Teo wrote: View Post
Well, I'm not debating this... I'm merely saying that martial usage and application of this is slightly different to simply practising yoga? Otherwise, why bother with aikido? We'd be th3 q1-m@st3r, by simply "practising yoga"????
There's no question they are different. I've taken yoga classes with some really advanced people (as good as or better than the guy in the clip I posted) and I've never asked one of them to let me push on them. It really doesn't matter to me whether they can apply their body skill in a martial context, only whether they can teach me how to have the skill they have. I'm fully confident that when I develop that level of control over my body that it will be very powerful in a martial context.

I also have a theory that I could teach an advanced yoga practitioner how to be virtually unthrowable in a very short amount of time (a few months or so) just by showing them how to use their existing skill in a new way. Haven't had the chance to test that out yet though. For some reason high-level yoga people don't seem to care much about fighting.

Last edited by G DiPierro : 04-05-2007 at 12:18 AM.
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Old 04-05-2007, 12:25 AM   #218
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Re: Ki-Aikido or Taiji - effectiveness in developing Qi?

Giancarlo,

I would tend to agree with your comments concerning this.

For me, the issue has never been if metholodgies such as Aikido, KI/Jin, or yoga can assist in someway..as I think there is much merit in the practices.

Just maybe not in the context that many discuss them.

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Old 04-05-2007, 01:13 AM   #219
Gernot Hassenpflug
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Re: Ki-Aikido or Taiji - effectiveness in developing Qi?

[quote=Ignatius Teo;174665]Thanks, that's precisely what I'm getting at.... my wife has really strong qi (from years of singing)... you can bounce a quarter off her six-pack... and she's really loud too... for a dimunitive woman but in terms of her ability to use jin/kokyu in any sort of martial context is pretty much nil.[]/QUOTE

Heh, she is likely also good proof that she doesn't need good jin to beat your butt flat :-) Sounds like my fiancee, same singing, same sixpack, same loud, same diminutive, same kicks my butt LOL. But such a lady does make a quite good training partner for push/pull, and also for training her yourself, since she is likely to understand the ideas and how the spine is used.

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Ignatius Teo wrote: View Post
So back to the question at hand /snip/ is Ki-Aikido or Taiji effective in developing qi /snip/
Indeed, it is back to front. If specific exercises were taught correctly with the goal explained, then the aikido and tai-chi would have qi/chi in it as an effect, and people wouldn't be analysing forms but rather the store, release and flow of ki, its associated mechanics, and the pros and cons of different and different levels of mechanisms/power train components.
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Old 04-05-2007, 08:23 AM   #220
DH
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Re: Ki-Aikido or Taiji - effectiveness in developing Qi?

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Kit Leblanc wrote: View Post
As I recall, the MMA angle came in when when people were discussing what they could and were doing to men with Judo, BJJ and MMA experience.....
The unanswered question remains what men with Judo, BJJ and MMA experience?

Now it seems to be turned on its head, with a new definition of MMA that really only exists within some small groups of integrated combatives practitioners.

We could ask "who amongst the people becoming well known in the integrated combatives community have you trained with" but then we'd REALLY be going off on a tangent....
Was away yesterday and missed all this nonsense.
Kit
For starters you're acting like a troll. Posting my name all over town, then dragging a character defaming picture here thus insinuating "I'm not real" is disgusting. Particularly, since you know so many who know me. I don't care if you dissagree with me. There is no excuse for this kind of behaviour-none. It would you see you banned from most forums. Allowing it here is a clear mesage for me, so thanks for that.

1. As for MMA? I really don't care who can beat who or how LEO trains VS military or whether or not -you- think one is better than the other. That's no point at all. Lidell beating Couture doesn't matter. The point is MMA -as a method- wins. Then each man's understanding and skill wins, and sometimes a lucky shot wins. But you already know this -so what are we arguing?
Me, I've rolled with many high ranked guys over the years. Sorry, but quite frankly I've found cross-trained wrestlers -two trying to get into the UFC-more challenging. No, I've not rolled with a BJJ black belt yet, but you picqued my interest so I found one from Rio. I can roll with him next week. I don't know if its just BJJ or MMA. But I don't think I'll be issuing a book report to some yahoo in Seatlle.
I've said it hundred times. I argue on two fronts. MMA as a superior method. And internal training as superior conditioning. But if you don't learn to fight- you can't fight.

2. Apparently you take issue with me bringing up MMA in regards to internal training as a conditioning or training tool that has value in that venue as any other venue. That's your call, fine by me. I judge their value from what it adds to my game. You want the merit of them judged as a value on a level with someone you know or is known by you. I've already heard this before, already heard this from right here- much the same as with Sorrentino's "oh so friendly" behaviour and doubts.

Stick to your training. I'm sure it hasn't changed over the years, sure you didn't "discover" something others were doing that added to your game. There is nothing you didn't know. I think you should dismiss me as any source. Dismiss the idea entirely. I think you know best, Kit.

Dan

Last edited by DH : 04-05-2007 at 08:34 AM.
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Old 04-05-2007, 08:29 AM   #221
Mike Sigman
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Re: Ki-Aikido or Taiji - effectiveness in developing Qi?

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Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
Who have I fought in MMA?
No, no, no. I wasn't asking that. I was asking why that is so important. It's like me constantly asking what high-level Sanda fighters in China you've ever fought. That's what they focus on and if you haven't fought one of them, you're no one. Kit LeBlanc is no one, even if he's the Swat God in Seattle that can lay smack words on internet forums. The point being that everyone has their idea of what is top level..... but THAT IS NOT THE DISCUSSION ON THIS THREAD! The basic point is that neither you nor Kit know what the discussion is about (yeah, I checked on Kit's background, so I have a pretty good idea who he is and what he knows)... but you both have this antagonistic approach with a "the stuff I do is better" attitude. I'd prefer to hear you make statements *after* you've seen some of the good stuff and then say why it's no good and why you're so much better and you can beat inexperienced guys in their 20's and yada, yada, yada. Anything to keep off of the MMA bluster.... we've all seen it on the various forums. It's like a broken record back over about 15 posts where this stuff cycles, then you're going to wait and go see it, and then you question the worth of it compared to your own abilities, then you're going to wait and see it before you comment any more, and then you teach this stuff too, and so on.

Why don't we take some simple movement... say a punch... and you tell us how this "ki" that you teach works to assist a punch. We can tell right away if we're talking the same thing. Of if you think ki has nothing to do with a punch, just say why. Then we can get back toward the main topic of the discussion.

FWIW

Mike
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Old 04-05-2007, 08:32 AM   #222
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Re: Ki-Aikido or Taiji - effectiveness in developing Qi?

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Robert John wrote: View Post
Like I said, it was back when my skill level was just getting to the preschool stage
Think you're missing something here, I was engaging. I wasn't playing the grab ass grip game, I had my hands on top of his wrists, and basically controlled his balance so I was free to strike if I wanted (not within the Judo ruleset I know). Unfortunately I sucked at judo/shuai jiao type throws at the time.

Some food for thought though... so for someone who only had a limited amount of time training under Sam (maybe a year at that point) against said judo kid who spent 6 years under Jason Morris's (ex olympic contender) camp...what does that say about Judo if he's unable to throw someone who's being passive?
Whether or not the guy is being passive shouldn't make a difference I know it didn't make a difference with most of the other guy's I've touched hands with that were better than myself.
Judo throws only work when you get someone to move in an aggressive way, just like aikido throws. You can't throw a guy who stands there and keeps his balance. I don't care what art you are in. Sure you could muscle the guy off his feet or something, but you can't actually throw. The nature of the throws requires someone to be moving in a way that lends its self to the throw. You can't just grab, pull, throw against a guy who is actively resisting you. You have to convince them to move the right way and attack. Once they attack they open themselves up for the throw. If they were not attacking why would you need to throw them anyways?

Judo is perfect for what it was ment for, launching an aggressor in the clinch range to the ground. If your not attacking me, there is no reason to clinch. It would be easier to punch you in the face.

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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Old 04-05-2007, 08:39 AM   #223
Mike Sigman
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Re: Ki-Aikido or Taiji - effectiveness in developing Qi?

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Don Magee wrote: View Post
Judo throws only work when you get someone to move in an aggressive way, just like aikido throws. You can't throw a guy who stands there and keeps his balance. I don't care what art you are in. Sure you could muscle the guy off his feet or something, but you can't actually throw. The nature of the throws requires someone to be moving in a way that lends its self to the throw. You can't just grab, pull, throw against a guy who is actively resisting you.
I dunno... I did a lot of judo and I don't particularly agree with this. There are too many factors to just make general statements like that. And I can throw a lot of people Tai Otoshi without them ever having to do anything aggressive, as a simple example.

Mike
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Old 04-05-2007, 09:05 AM   #224
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Re: Ki-Aikido or Taiji - effectiveness in developing Qi?

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Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
I dunno... I did a lot of judo and I don't particularly agree with this. There are too many factors to just make general statements like that. And I can throw a lot of people Tai Otoshi without them ever having to do anything aggressive, as a simple example.

Mike
I've never been thrown when I wasn't attacking. I have also stood in on place and let people try to throw me. With the exception of very large strong men, and my instructor I am usually not moved.

However, what I am talking about is someone who is defensive. I can hold most anyone off all day in judo by doing a few things.

1) Never attempt to throw
2) prevent them from maintaining a grip.
3) Never lifting my feet up when I walk.
4) Keeping an upright posture.

Maybe I have developed some internal skill, but if I do these things I can hold off most anyone all day long. If I take a single one of these out of the equation then I am easily throwable. Not only that, but most people will say they do not feel it would be wise to even enter for a throw.

Anyways, it is getting off topic. My point was to not be thrown doesn't require much internal skill. I know lots of muscle heads who are crazy hard to throw just because they have a good sense of when to stiff arm and when to drop their hips and they don't peruse you.But when they attack, their technique is poor and I take them for a ride. Of course I could muscle them though and probably get a throw, but that is not judo.

So what I would find impressive is someone who can maintain this unthrowable posture and still send guys flying and at a high competitive level. At my level it doesn't interest me because I have learned many neat tricks that my instructor without batting an eyelash can overcome but green belts can not. So it could be a neat trick, but ultimately not hold water against serious practitioners, or it could be a very effective movement that allows you to win a gold medal in the olympics.

Then I ask a second thing, after this is done, move to my town and open a judo club :-)

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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Old 04-05-2007, 09:16 AM   #225
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Re: Ki-Aikido or Taiji - effectiveness in developing Qi?

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Don Magee wrote: View Post
Judo throws only work when you get someone to move in an aggressive way, just like aikido throws. You can't throw a guy who stands there and keeps his balance. I don't care what art you are in. Sure you could muscle the guy off his feet or something, but you can't actually throw. The nature of the throws requires someone to be moving in a way that lends its self to the throw. You can't just grab, pull, throw against a guy who is actively resisting you. You have to convince them to move the right way and attack. Once they attack they open themselves up for the throw. If they were not attacking why would you need to throw them anyways?

Judo is perfect for what it was ment for, launching an aggressor in the clinch range to the ground. If your not attacking me, there is no reason to clinch. It would be easier to punch you in the face.
Hmm...
Trying to throw an aggressive attacker is all the same to you then?
Every man moves the same? Every man who try's to throw you "opens himself up" for an attack in the same way? All men's balance is the same?

The nature of the throws requires someone to be moving in a way that lends its self to the throw.
And there it is..........
I suggest to you that there are men who don't move or feel quite the way you think everyone else does, nor do they retain their balance the same way. The real key here is "most think that's B.S." That's it.
That all men just have varying degrees of better "conventional" balance. Add to that istheir judo skills.
And not there is a better way to have structure and retain it that is different than what they know.
Of course trying a "judo" throw on some may be a hell of a lot harder then others. But sometimes it's due to skill in Judo, sometimes due to better structure. But why not go for both.

If you read Harrison's book of Judo in Japan in the 30's.
Several of the top flight Judo men were aware of this type of training and that most didn't do it. As one Judoka stated "When Mr. So and so used those skills he could not be thrown."
Those "skills" and how to train them- came from an Aikijujutsu guy. Harrison's book is "the fighting spirit of Japan."

As for standing outside and punching or kicking. Well that's anther topic all together-MMA the great equalizer; grappling and Striking combined. I'd suggest grappling, striking, cardio and internal training. But if I could have only one, it would be Internal skills.

Cheers
Dan

Last edited by DH : 04-05-2007 at 09:20 AM.
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