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Old 04-02-2007, 09:08 PM   #151
Cady Goldfield
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Re: Ki-Aikido or Taiji - effectiveness in developing Qi?

Quote:
Justin Smith wrote: View Post
I never claimed that there are "paranormal" things going on here.

But you're seriously claiming that the claim of not being able to be pushed over at all is not an extraordinary claim?

And you don't find it odd, that this supposed really really really effective way of moving hasn't won any titles in UFC, for example, competitions?

Justin
Geez, Justin. You sound like a broken record! After men with years of training and teaching experience have said otherwise, you cling to your litany. You have a chance to feel this stuff, so I'd have to say that if you keep sawing out the same tired old questions, but blowing off the cogent answers, you're just trolling.
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Old 04-02-2007, 10:46 PM   #152
KIT
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Re: Ki-Aikido or Taiji - effectiveness in developing Qi?

Its "clinch," BTW.

Clenching is something different.
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Old 04-02-2007, 10:53 PM   #153
Pete Rihaczek
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Re: Ki-Aikido or Taiji - effectiveness in developing Qi?

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Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
Pete I believe is the only one that has a sound background in a non-compliant practice that says that it has merit..so I am all ears to hear how he incorporates this type of training.
I only have time to skim through and this thread seems to be moving pretty quickly so I might miss things that call for a response, but I wanted to respond to this. I don't know about Dan, but I'm sure Mike was street fighting when I was still in martial diapers, so to speak, so the idea that I'm the only one with a non-compliant background isn't right. As to the latter question, the answer is with wishful thinking. This stuff is quite rare, and there's no one close to me that can be a coach. I work with what I know, get out and meet people when I can amongst a busy schedule of family and business commitments. I have limited time for any training at all these days. I'm still waiting for Rob to post some sort of Akuzawa seminar schedule, but he's too busy skirt-chasing to answer his emails...not that I blame him the least, all things considered. Being a young man in Japan would keep me too busy for internet forums, that's for sure.

I haven't rolled with Rob, and what he does is a bit different than what Mike does, so I don't know how it feels in a ground context. For standing grappling and hitting, particularly short-range hitting it's a no-brainer that this stuff is useful. Adding it to hitting is probably the easiest thing to do and get some pretty quick utility, other things are more complicated, and how far you can take it depends on if you have time and access to someone good. If all you care about is training for the next MMA competition, I'm not sure why that's coming up on an Aikido forum. You're training for MMA, but have time to do Aikido, and then wonder if the internal stuff is worth pursuing? If you're training for MMA, then trying to incorporate the internal bodywork is certainly a better use of time than doing any Aikido no matter how you slice it. If you can invest in the long term a bit more it makes even more sense to see what you can get.
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Old 04-02-2007, 11:45 PM   #154
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Re: Ki-Aikido or Taiji - effectiveness in developing Qi?

Thanks the the info Pete I appreciate, it is helpful.

To clarifiy,I never said I was wondering if it was worth pursuing, only how do you incorporate it into an MMA environment. I think some are confusing the issue.

My purpose of training is not to compete in MMA, I am way too old for that. I was studying Aikido long before getting involved in MMA methdologies. My interest are adapting the knowledge I gained from aikido in a more dynamic, non-compliant manner. My intent of the questions and area of focus is how do you incorporate what these guys are doing in the same environment, and how is it different from other methdologies from say guys like Rickson.

That simple.

Thanks again for the reply!

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Old 04-03-2007, 02:06 AM   #155
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Re: Internal Power in your Aikido

Quote:
Howard Chan wrote: View Post
Also Shin Budo Kai (maybe?). Imaizumi sensei is a direct student of K.Tohei sensei but I don't know if he kept ki-development in his curriculum.
yes.

He calls it Genkido and they do have classes that focus on it.

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Old 04-03-2007, 02:12 AM   #156
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Re: Ki-Aikido or Taiji - effectiveness in developing Qi?

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Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
Ki-Aikido has now become something slightly different than O-Sensei's Aikido, but *some* of the practitioners are definitely performing what I would call acceptable ki skills (but they can do better!!! ).
Hai !
I'm working on it!


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Old 04-03-2007, 03:20 AM   #157
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Re: Ki-Aikido or Taiji - effectiveness in developing Qi?

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Don Magee wrote: View Post
It seems to me that my time is better spent drilling passes, escapes, and submissions, then sparing. Every hour I work on rooting is an hour I could be throwing resisting opponents and fixing flaws in my technique.

I used to train bjj 2 days a week, and aikido 3 days a week. Most of my aikido class supposedly focused on building ki. In fact I'd say 90% of the class is ki exercises. I've seen very cool things out of the brown belts and the instructors, however over the course of 2 years I have not found tangible benefit to ki training to help my fighting ability.

This is not to say it is worthless, but until I am proven otherwise, I have to conclude based on experience that my time more efficiently spent perfecting my technique in alive drills.
If you have limited training time, you have to make priorities.

What I am wondering is where you are training. Even though the ki development exercises is a system, the teachers depth of understanding still makes a difference. Also have you asked questions and are they willing to think outside the box and answer. You may very well not make the connections on your own to what you are doing. It could be the training is helping in ways you are not aware of yet. It also could be a little guidance could make all the difference and the light bulb pops on.

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Old 04-03-2007, 06:26 AM   #158
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Re: Ki-Aikido or Taiji - effectiveness in developing Qi?

Don Magee wrote:
It seems to me that my time is better spent drilling passes, escapes, and submissions, then sparing. Every hour I work on rooting is an hour I could be throwing resisting opponents and fixing flaws in my technique.

I used to train bjj 2 days a week, and aikido 3 days a week. Most of my aikido class supposedly focused on building ki. In fact I'd say 90% of the class is ki exercises. I've seen very cool things out of the brown belts and the instructors, however over the course of 2 years I have not found tangible benefit to ki training to help my fighting ability.

This is not to say it is worthless, but until I am proven otherwise, I have to conclude based on experience that my time more efficiently spent perfecting my technique in alive drills.


I disagree
The body conditioning I have been advocating is tailor made for fighting. Its the only reason I pursued and conitnue to pursue it in the first place. Pretty much if I can't see results- your gonna lose me fast. and once convinced I get obessed with working it to death. I'm not going to be doing jujutsu kata for ten minutes before I'm looking for someone to bang with to prove out the supposed "theory." And that from force-on-force. How internal training greatly increases real usable strength and power has to be felt. I think most people's lack of understanding and their doubts about it being ONLY static training is largely based on assumptions of what they think they know. It appears the hundreds of comments about use in movement and use in freestyle is blowing right past them. They are stuck on "tilt" since they first heard the words "static pushing." Virtually every response now is white noise. There is no real discussion moving forward about -movement and fighting application- despite many efforts. We might as well say a training drill is a waste of time. Or any movement to burn-in body knoweldge and awareness is a waste of time. Forums are classic evidence of that. They either talk past one another- not really hearing- or they flat out refuse to believe there is a body conditioning method ....they..... don't know.

All this from the wonderkins who:
Did not know the ground game till UFC and scoffed
Did not recognize the real power of grappling till shown
Did not know Kettle bell and cross fit training
Did not know core training and scoffed

They don't know the internal skills and body conditioning and they scoff at that too.
We only know what we know and can see. SSDD.

Last edited by DH : 04-03-2007 at 06:41 AM.
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Old 04-03-2007, 06:51 AM   #159
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Re: Ki-Aikido or Taiji - effectiveness in developing Qi?

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Kit Leblanc wrote: View Post
Its "clinch," BTW.

Clenching is something different.
And let's not even get into how it's used to create tension, release and generate power . . . darn, I went there, didn't I?
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Old 04-03-2007, 07:33 AM   #160
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Re: Ki-Aikido or Taiji - effectiveness in developing Qi?

I think an important point has been raised, regarding assumptions and attitudes.

I can understand those that seem to be primarily doubting based on what they "know" from training in bjj, mma, etc. resistance-based paradigms - ie "trying stuff out". However, I think the main advocates for the internal work have more than adequately addressed the questions regarding how this stuff is "useful" in a resistance-based, mma-type setting. What's particularly striking to me, is how similar these discussions are becoming to those, back in the early days of MMA in the US, for why understanding the grappling environment was important.

You had lots of folks making assumptions about what grapplers were doing, rather than finding out for themselves.

People insisted that, based on what they knew, there wasn't any need to understand how a grappler can operate.

Lots of people pointed out the myriad number of "techniques" they had at their disposal that would stop a grappler.

People would point at their lineage and number of years in "x" art as proof that they understood grappling, even if they didn't or never had trained in it.

Grapplers, does this sound familiar? I know that a lot of the times when I heard this in the 90s was when I was playing more in aikido and karate paradigms of training. A lot of the time I'd smile and nod at what people were saying, it's just words, right? Sometimes, in a more "testing" type setting where we'd mix it up, I'd change their minds about some of their assumptions regarding grappling. Sometimes, I'd invite them to try out their theories at the local freestyle/greco club that I'd visit.

Nowadays, people in MMA (that are primarily strikers) are implementing (at least) components of grappling (sprawl, clinch, etc.) into their overall game (Cro Cop, Anderson Silva, etc.) "by training in it" so that they have a base and understanding of it in order to close that hole in their training

I have my own ideas about how "aiki" type stuff works in a grappling/resistance-based approach. Rather than post theories about them or assume they're valid, or even worse, base my results on how they work on non-grapplers -- I go visit the local bjj club and try them out.

But seriously, at this point, there have been enough folks trying this stuff and getting out there to try to feel it (I've met a couple of them at seminars and would give enough credence in their words to want to learn more), shouldn't we be past the point of wondering if there's value here and more on the line of what's the best way for us to feel it for ourselves (or better yet, asking questions of those who know more than we do)? From the sounds of it, there's lots of sweat and work involved, so if that's going to be a problem, then some will be weeded out already.

For myself, I'd love to learn more about this stuff. I have a full plate already of family, work and budo, but sometimes being able to grow and adapt means buying a bigger plate (leave space for humble pie if necessary) or moving aside the garnish that's pretty, but not digestible.

FWIW

Last edited by Budd : 04-03-2007 at 07:36 AM.
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Old 04-03-2007, 07:44 AM   #161
Erik Johnstone
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Re: Ki-Aikido or Taiji - effectiveness in developing Qi?

I think that Dan, Mike & Rob have pretty well done what they can to convince those on this board who were or are already willing to ask questions about what it is that they are trying to "accomplish" in their training. Those of us that have made the effort to visit and train with Dan felt it instantly (speaking for myself, anyway)! And, as others have already stated, what is very telling here is that the others in Dan's dojo can do it, and show it, at varying levels, as well.

As Mark M. and Mark C. have already said, ask the people that have or are going to see Dan (or Mike & Rob) about their experience. Mark Murray made his second visit to Dan's just recently, driving 9 hours up and training for 6 hours, and turning around and driving 9 hours back home to work on these things. That kind of effort is very telling with respect to the value of training these skills.

In terms of value, these skills are applicable across the boards. I am a Karate/Jujutsu/Koryu guy, and from my perspective, the skills that Dan is willing to share are applicable to everything that I do. For me, the MMA approach is particlarly enticing, for most of the reasons that Dan has already mentioned. In fact, the MMA approach makes complete sense to me in terms of being true to the arts that I study, particularly classical Karate, an MMA from its very beginnings.

If you really are interested, try to arrange a visit to see Dan, even if you hold some doubt...you will be convinved, and you will want to pursue this training. On top of that, he is just a really nice, welcoming person (as is everyone else that trains with him), so you'll have fun too! If you are simply interested in refuting or ignoring what Dan, Mike and Rob are talking about and, moreover, are willing to share, then simply ignore these threads and move on.
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Old 04-03-2007, 08:05 AM   #162
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Re: Ki-Aikido or Taiji - effectiveness in developing Qi?

The problem is not that I do not believe in internal power. My aikido instructor and his top students all demonstrate it and I know for a fact it exists. My problem is that nobody can teach it to me in a way that makes it useful to me. I can't afford to travel the world to build my skill. My experience thus far with ki training has found it basically worthless for what I do (compete and fight). I can drill a guard pass and spar for 2 hours and notice atangible increase in ability. I tried to develop ki for almost 2 years (well I still try every aikido class I take which is admitidly not very often anymore) and to date I am able to think of only one instance where I was able to use internal strength to my advantage, and even then it was only for a few seconds where everything fit. I have not been able to replicate the situation.

Now I don't understand ki. I'm not qualified to teach it or claim anything about it. I can only tell you what I know. I know that my aikido teacher has ki. I can't move his arms if he doesn't' want me to. I can't lift him (well I couldn't lift him if he didn't have ki, he's a big guy). I can feel a different kind of strength in him then I do with say judo brown/black belts and bjj blue/purple belts. I also know that his top students (high brown and black belts) have some of the same qualities he has and are able to do some of what he can do most of the time. I also know his teacher is 80 years old and my teacher claims he can do the same things to him today.

However, two things always show up in my mind.

A) My teacher and his top students have trained for many years. My teacher has trained for as long as I have been alive. His top students are going on a decade. Even then I doubt if his students can demonstrate in sparing good internal skills. I know my instructor can, I can feel it when I attempt to resist a technique. I do not have decades of time to spend to learn a skill. I do not want to be a unmovable master at 50 or 60. I want to be successful now while I'm young and can enjoy the success of being young and competitive. This means I need to see tangible benefit in months, not years, the same way I see with my judo and bjj training. So far my personal experience has not shown me this. This is compounded by the fact that the training paradigm does not allow me to test the limits of internal strength and remain respectful. This means i can not see if the strength they develop is really any more powerful then what my bjj and judo instructor do to me.

B) The types of strength I encounter with top level bjj and judo guys (like higher blues, purples, and my instructors) is far different then the kind of strength I feel from my aikido instructor. However it also does not feel muscled and external. It is a natural way of moving that is developed though simple training judo and bjj. I am also unable to deal with this, the same way I am unable to deal with my aikido instructors strength. This skill I am building, and I get similar comments from people I spar with. (Nothing makes me happier then when someone 40 pounds larger then me and much stronger then me is tapping out and saying I'm stronger then I look.) The difference here is that I can just train more bjj and judo to develop this skill. It does not require me to shirk my technique training to develop an outside force I then have to reincorporate into my training. This is similar to my arguments about multiple opponent training. Until I can defeat one sufficiently trained opponent, why bother with 3.

Both of these issues is compounded with the fact that there is an argument on what is the real internal training. I do not have this with judo or bjj. There is no one saying "You can't train with the usjf, they don't' have the real judo." So I know I'm getting quality training. With internal skills, I do not have this same ability. To my knowledge there is no one in this area who can teach me these skills in a short time, and show me how to incorporate them into my bjj and judo.

So in short, its a neat physics trick. I can see how it could be useful if I could find someone to teach it and train it in a way that is worth while. However, I do not think it is feasible to spend time on until I at least have a bjj brown belt around my waist. So basically once I develop the limits of what they are teaching me, then it might be worth while to see something more. Unless a ki master moves into my city and lays the smack down on me.

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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Old 04-03-2007, 08:16 AM   #163
Mike Sigman
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Re: Ki-Aikido or Taiji - effectiveness in developing Qi?

Quote:
Don Magee wrote: View Post
The problem is not that I do not believe in internal power. My aikido instructor and his top students all demonstrate it and I know for a fact it exists.
Maybe, maybe not. I've met tons of people who "already do that stuff", their teacher already does it, talks about it, and knows all the buzzwords. The teacher can usually do some things that are impressive to people in the class. The problem is almost always that the "internal strength" someone is thinking they already know/do is not the jin/kokyu/ki/fajin, etc., that can be seen most competent Asian martial artists with solid credentials and real fighting experience.

Don't get me wrong, BTW... I don't answer or respond to most posts with the intent of arguing a point. I do it simply with the idea that it might help the lurking beginner out there to see the other side of the point. I am by no means encouraging you to go outside of your teacher; only a very few people are going to be that interested.

Regards,

Mike Sigman
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Old 04-03-2007, 08:32 AM   #164
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Re: Ki-Aikido or Taiji - effectiveness in developing Qi?

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Don Magee wrote: View Post
The problem is not that I do not believe in internal power. My aikido instructor and his top students all demonstrate it and I know for a fact it exists.
Don, just for my sake, step outside the box. Throw away preconceived notions and then entertain this little gem. What your aikido instructor is doing is different than the internal stuff we're talking about. Now, think about that concept. I'm not saying it's true, just think about it.

Quote:
Don Magee wrote: View Post
My problem is that nobody can teach it to me in a way that makes it useful to me. I can't afford to travel the world to build my skill. My experience thus far with ki training has found it basically worthless for what I do (compete and fight). I can drill a guard pass and spar for 2 hours and notice atangible increase in ability. I tried to develop ki for almost 2 years (well I still try every aikido class I take which is admitidly not very often anymore) and to date I am able to think of only one instance where I was able to use internal strength to my advantage, and even then it was only for a few seconds where everything fit. I have not been able to replicate the situation.
Now that you're outside the box. Think about internal power that can be taught where you'll see some results in months not years. And you'll see some results in competing and fighting, not just static drills. Since we're outside the box, think about aikido "ki" not being the same as the internal stuff we're talking about.

Quote:
Don Magee wrote: View Post
However, two things always show up in my mind.

A) My teacher and his top students have trained for many years. My teacher has trained for as long as I have been alive. His top students are going on a decade. Even then I doubt if his students can demonstrate in sparing good internal skills. I know my instructor can, I can feel it when I attempt to resist a technique. I do not have decades of time to spend to learn a skill. I do not want to be a unmovable master at 50 or 60. I want to be successful now while I'm young and can enjoy the success of being young and competitive. This means I need to see tangible benefit in months, not years, the same way I see with my judo and bjj training. So far my personal experience has not shown me this. This is compounded by the fact that the training paradigm does not allow me to test the limits of internal strength and remain respectful. This means i can not see if the strength they develop is really any more powerful then what my bjj and judo instructor do to me.
Well, I've seen skill levels between months and years and let me say that, yes, there is a progression level, and yes, it can show up at months training, not years. Not only that, but it can be used in an "alive" environment. And, yes, internal training will allow you to test the limits. But, to understand all this, you have to understand that what aikido "ki" is taught as doesn't necessarily equate to internal skills. Not saying this is the case all the time, but I know it's the case for some.

Quote:
Don Magee wrote: View Post
Both of these issues is compounded with the fact that there is an argument on what is the real internal training. I do not have this with judo or bjj. There is no one saying "You can't train with the usjf, they don't' have the real judo." So I know I'm getting quality training. With internal skills, I do not have this same ability. To my knowledge there is no one in this area who can teach me these skills in a short time, and show me how to incorporate them into my bjj and judo.

So in short, its a neat physics trick. I can see how it could be useful if I could find someone to teach it and train it in a way that is worth while. However, I do not think it is feasible to spend time on until I at least have a bjj brown belt around my waist. So basically once I develop the limits of what they are teaching me, then it might be worth while to see something more. Unless a ki master moves into my city and lays the smack down on me.
Again, throw out all your ideas of "ki" and entertain some new thoughts on the matter. Don't equate it with what you know, but rather look at it in a new light as something that is completely different. Reread all the posts in that frame of mind. Then focus on Dan's posts about how he trained and then used it in a "live" environment to test it out.

Personally, I don't equate this with "ki" (as in the good ole Aikido Ki) at all. Unbendable arm stuff? This ain't it. This stuff is internal body structure and pathways.

IMO,
Mark
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Old 04-03-2007, 09:43 AM   #165
Mark Jakabcsin
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Re: Ki-Aikido or Taiji - effectiveness in developing Qi?

Quote:
Don Magee wrote: View Post
However, I do not think it is feasible to spend time on until I at least have a bjj brown belt around my waist. So basically once I develop the limits of what they are teaching me, then it might be worth while to see something more. Unless a ki master moves into my city and lays the smack down on me.
Don,
If this is your view then why are you wasting bandwidth and your time on this thread? Basically you have said nothing more than 'it might be useful but I am happy with what I am doing and I am unwilling to sacrifice the time and effort to go see what internal training is about.' All of that is fine, it's your training and you need to be the one to make the decision. I simply do not understand why, after making the decision, you continue to post and hang around. Isn't the logical thing, to move on and spend you effort, mental as well as physical, supporting your training decision?

MJ
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Old 04-03-2007, 09:51 AM   #166
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Re: Ki-Aikido or Taiji - effectiveness in developing Qi?

Quote:
Don Magee wrote: View Post
The problem is not that I do not believe in internal power. My aikido instructor and his top students all demonstrate it and I know for a fact it exists. My problem is that nobody can teach it to me in a way that makes it useful to me. I can't afford to travel the world to build my skill. My experience thus far with ki training has found it basically worthless for what I do (compete and fight). I can drill a guard pass and spar for 2 hours and notice atangible increase in ability. I tried to develop ki for almost 2 years (well I still try every aikido class I take which is admitidly not very often anymore) and to date I am able to think of only one instance where I was able to use internal strength to my advantage, and even then it was only for a few seconds where everything fit. I have not been able to replicate the situation.<snip>

Unless a ki master moves into my city and lays the smack down on me.
Don to be frank...if you can't develop these skills in a short time and be able to use them in the "a1iVE" environment, then yeah I agree, it would be pretty worthless.

Thing is, I was able to use these skills and apply them/notice a significant difference in sparring within two years. So my only guess is that (assuming your teacher is teaching ki skills)
a) his training regimine sucks ass at developing these things in the body
b) maybe you aren't committing to whatever daily training is required to figure out this stuff.

Its been mentioned before that you have to fundamentally change the way you move in daily life. How you walk, run, open a door, open a bottle, jump EVERYTHING quite literally has to change.

Anyways, it's not a slam on you.
I've been in another system (not JMA) where I saw some students get it, but other not get it as much (myself included initially). Once you get on track with the right training regimine you should see tangible or large increases in whatever you can do currently. (Actually it should directly affect your ground game within 6 months)

If Ark ever makes it out to the east coast I'd encourage you to drop by. I can guarantee at least the developmental exercises won't leave you with any doubt as to what you're "developing"

Last edited by Upyu : 04-03-2007 at 10:00 AM.
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Old 04-03-2007, 10:00 AM   #167
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Re: Ki-Aikido or Taiji - effectiveness in developing Qi?

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Mark Murray wrote: View Post
Personally, I don't equate this with "ki" (as in the good ole Aikido Ki) at all. Unbendable arm stuff? This ain't it. This stuff is internal body structure and pathways.

IMO,
Mark
Actually, unbendable arm is all about body structure and pathways. While you're out of your box try to consider that good ole aikido ki might actually be the same thing as the stuff you're talking about.

IMHO if it's not the exactly same it's really similar.

Mike

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Old 04-03-2007, 10:11 AM   #168
Haowen Chan
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Re: Ki-Aikido or Taiji - effectiveness in developing Qi?

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Mike Haft wrote: View Post
Actually, unbendable arm is all about body structure and pathways. While you're out of your box try to consider that good ole aikido ki might actually be the same thing as the stuff you're talking about.

IMHO if it's not the exactly same it's really similar.

Mike
Yes, I think there maybe there are aspects to properly instructed ki-soc training that are missing out on this thread so focused on martial effectiveness.

If Aunkai produces the same martial results in years as Ki-development does in decades, there's probably some kind of tradeoff somewhere. Akuzawa is awesome but Koichi Tohei sensei is no dunce.

I haven't trained in both (yet!) so I can't say what the tradeoff is though. Offhand the first theory that comes to mind is that Aunkai is very focused on martial effectiveness while Ki-Soc is more concerned with health applications, coming from shinshintoitsu-do and all that.
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Old 04-03-2007, 10:16 AM   #169
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Re: Ki-Aikido or Taiji - effectiveness in developing Qi?

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Howard Chan wrote: View Post
Yes, I think there maybe there are aspects to properly instructed ki-soc training that are missing out on this thread so focused on martial effectiveness.

If Aunkai produces the same martial results in years as Ki-development does in decades, there's probably some kind of tradeoff somewhere. Akuzawa is awesome but Koichi Tohei sensei is no dunce.

I haven't trained in both (yet!) so I can't say what the tradeoff is though. Offhand the first theory that comes to mind is that Aunkai is very focused on martial effectiveness while Ki-Soc is more concerned with health applications, coming from shinshintoitsu-do and all that.
Which is why I'm interested in these conversations. I want to know if there is a quicker way to do the things I already can do after 10 years (can I teach my students to do it in 2?) I would hope so, it would be great. Plus. I don't want to spend a lifetime chasing something I could get in a matter of years.

Incidentally Tohei said that it shouldn't take people a long time to acquire these skills as it only took him maybe a year (can't remember the exact quote, will look for it).

Mike

"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."
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Old 04-03-2007, 10:58 AM   #170
MM
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Re: Ki-Aikido or Taiji - effectiveness in developing Qi?

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Mike Haft wrote: View Post
Actually, unbendable arm is all about body structure and pathways. While you're out of your box try to consider that good ole aikido ki might actually be the same thing as the stuff you're talking about.

IMHO if it's not the exactly same it's really similar.

Mike
Well, I was trying to make a point with Don. And I also prefaced things by saying that it wasn't necessarily true. Beyond that, I have seen, done, and felt aikido "ki" unbendable arm and it ain't even close to the internal stuff I'm talking about. The stuff I saw doesn't even compare to the body structure at all. The pathways might be, oh, .01% close to it. Might. And even if you somehow manage to get the pathways working correctly, you're only doing 1/1000th of the whole internal skillset. (Yeah, the numbers are guesses.)

Mark
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Old 04-03-2007, 11:16 AM   #171
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Re: Ki-Aikido or Taiji - effectiveness in developing Qi?

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Mark Murray wrote: View Post
Well, I was trying to make a point with Don. And I also prefaced things by saying that it wasn't necessarily true. Beyond that, I have seen, done, and felt aikido "ki" unbendable arm and it ain't even close to the internal stuff I'm talking about. The stuff I saw doesn't even compare to the body structure at all. The pathways might be, oh, .01% close to it. Might. And even if you somehow manage to get the pathways working correctly, you're only doing 1/1000th of the whole internal skillset. (Yeah, the numbers are guesses.)

Mark
I suppose that would depend on where you saw and felt it really. Like I said, there's no real way to be certain if discussing it on the internet, but I have a feeling you just haven't seen the really good ki stuff. Did your experience with the unbendable arm involve the tester holding your fingertips and moving them? Did it involve a fake or hesitation before the test was applied? If not then you've probably only seen the baby level stuff if I had to guess. Something you teach beginers in about 5 minutes usually. I could of course be wrong in my guess, and unbendable arm is only one of the many different ki tests used to develop internal power.

Here's another ki test, have a play with it, next time you visit Dan ask him to help you with it if you like (I'm sure he could probably do it based on what I've read around here. Just make sure you tell us about it afterwards!). Have you ever tried standing on one leg, holding out your wrist and letting someone grab said wrist and push or pull it? While they do this you of course aren't supposed to move or hop in anyway but are supposed to stay put. Your wrist isn't supposed to wobble around either

The common misconception's you tend to find people have about ki development exercises usually arise because they've only seen the basic levels and they aren't that impressed. Then they leave and go and find other people to train with, and when they talk about 'ki' you tend to hear them saying things like "oh yeah unbendable arm. It's not really impressive is it? Been there done that" when in fact they've usually only seen beginner levels of the exercises. That's just my impression of course.

YMMV

Mike

"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."
-Martin Luther King Jr
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Old 04-03-2007, 11:56 AM   #172
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Re: Ki-Aikido or Taiji - effectiveness in developing Qi?

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Mike Haft wrote: View Post

Here's another ki test, have a play with it, next time you visit Dan ask him to help you with it if you like (I'm sure he could probably do it based on what I've read around here. Just make sure you tell us about it afterwards!). Have you ever tried standing on one leg, holding out your wrist and letting someone grab said wrist and push or pull it? While they do this you of course aren't supposed to move or hop in anyway but are supposed to stay put. Your wrist isn't supposed to wobble around either
YMMV

Mike
Dan did somthing like that with me. He stood there on one leg and let me push / pull any part of his body (hands, arms, torso) in any direction I saw fit. He didn't budge. Yet while he was still on one leg, and i was still pushing / pulling with all my might, he sent my flying backwards 5 feet out of the blue.
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Old 04-03-2007, 12:09 PM   #173
Tom Fish
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Re: Ki-Aikido or Taiji - effectiveness in developing Qi?

I have practiced martial arts for many years. When I was younger and competing in Judo, I studied and worked to compete effectively. I have not been to a competition since 1981. I still practice, but with a different focus. I began studying Aikido to improve my Judo, Jyodo to improve my Aikido, Tai-Chi to improve everything else. My focus is to learn about and improve all of these things. I practice for the sheer fun of it and to acquire as much skill as I can. Now for the point I'm so convolutededly making my way to. If I had known about the internal aspects years ago, I think they would have added a whole new dimension to what I've been able to learn. These skills may not be required to become a good competitor in any martial art but it seems that they can help make your skills a lot more effective. With that being said, as long as I'm interested in learning and training, I have time to research and hopefully develope these internal skills. For those who are not interested, that's alright, as long as your training and learning something, it's all good. Just don't forget that there is always more to learn. A closed mind never serves your needs. Look forward with the idea that there is always more out there. Enjoy the moment and keep on going.
Best Regards
Tom
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Old 04-03-2007, 12:13 PM   #174
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Re: Ki-Aikido or Taiji - effectiveness in developing Qi?

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Mike Haft wrote: View Post
I

Here's another ki test, have a play with it, next time you visit Dan ask him to help you with it if you like (I'm sure he could probably do it based on what I've read around here. Just make sure you tell us about it afterwards!). Have you ever tried standing on one leg, holding out your wrist and letting someone grab said wrist and push or pull it? While they do this you of course aren't supposed to move or hop in anyway but are supposed to stay put. Your wrist isn't supposed to wobble around either
YMMV

Mike
My aikido instructor has done this a few times. Its a neat trick.

As for why i'm posting on this thread. It is simple, I'm giving my reasoning and thoughts and experience so others can tell me things I might not of thought of and maybe, just maybe, I can learn something. I'm sorry if you all want to sit around and talk about how great ki is, but I personally want to learn something.

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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Old 04-03-2007, 12:20 PM   #175
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Re: Ki-Aikido or Taiji - effectiveness in developing Qi?

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Tim Mailloux wrote: View Post
Dan did somthing like that with me. He stood there on one leg and let me push / pull any part of his body (hands, arms, torso) in any direction I saw fit. He didn't budge. Yet while he was still on one leg, and i was still pushing / pulling with all my might, he sent my flying backwards 5 feet out of the blue.
Fun isn't it Even more fun when you learn how to do it

Unfortunately these descriptions, all the way from descriptions of Takeda, to Ueshiba to Dan rarely describe how you got sent back 5' Do hips move? Arms? Something has to move or it's telekinesis. That's the problem with talking about it instead of being there and doing it sadly.

Mike

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