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Old 04-02-2007, 04:14 PM   #126
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Ki-Aikido or Taiji - effectiveness in developing Qi?

Quote:
To Don and Kevin.

Don't take this sarcastically because I'm serious. If you don't find anything useful here, why are you posting? It's been said that you can't see this stuff from a video. It's also been said that this stuff has been shown in a dynamic environment and it works. And it's been said that you have to feel this stuff. So, if you're confused and can't see how it'll be helpful, why keep posting? Because you'll just get the same answers again (see my first few sentences).

How about changing your questions? Why not direct your questions to the people who have felt it? Or some derivation?

Thanks,
Mark
No offense for sure!

Don pretty much said it for me. It is a matter of relative weight for us. I have so much time to spend training so what do you spend time training on? More importantly how do you integrate things, and what is different from one methodology to the next?

Again, words are thrown around here fairly liberally like martial effectiveness..yet rarely defined.

It is okay to say I like doing this because it makes me feel good and makes me feel powerful...I don't really care if it does not add relative value martially.

However, for me, I ask "what value does it add to you martially?"

It is a legitimate question and one I genuinely seek to understand.

I don't believe it has been adequately demonstrated in what I personally would define as a dynamic/non-compliant environment from those that post here. Pete I believe is the only one that has a sound background in a non-compliant practice that says that it has merit..so I am all ears to hear how he incorporates this type of training. It is important...don't confuse what I am saying.

I never said there was no value in it, I have only said I am confused and trying to understand the difference.

It is not that I don't want to meet some of these guys...it is only that I don't have the time or the ability right now. No one wants to waste valuable training time...so naturally I try and glean as much as I can out of what they are saying to try as best I can to try and understand my current practice against what they are saying.

Big difference between saying I see no value.

Mark, I spent 10 years studying TMA and Aikido and thinking I actually had some decent skills in fighting only to be shown by a few young Bullshido types that I did not really no jack about anything in a non-compliant and alive environment. It was a humiliating and eye opening experience that changed the way I assess training, how I train, and what I spend my time on.

I do find value in studying aikido, naturally I'd find value in what Mike and Rob..etc are into, frankly it is very exciting...it is figuring out where and how it fits into that framework that matter.

It also matters trying to figure out what is different about it than what is being done by guys like Rickson Gracie, and some of the high ranking BJJ guys I swap sweat with from time to time when I can.

It is important because that is my frame of reference and I geniunely want to know what is different..so I am all ears when I here someone like Pete that has spent time with guys like Rickson and talks about "components" I become curious and want to better understand.

I hope this helps explain my view point on this subject.

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Old 04-02-2007, 04:21 PM   #127
DH
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Re: Ki-Aikido or Taiji - effectiveness in developing Qi?

Unbelievable!
Kevin:
Dan why do you just do static pushing?
Dan
Its a training tool to test the solo work We fight. I punch, kick, do takedown resistence, ground fight, submit and choke
Kevin
I can't understaind the value in static training
Dan
Its a training tool to test the solo work We fight. I punch, kick, do takedown resistence, ground fight, submit and choke.
Kevin
I can't see how training with aikido people meets my interest in what you do . Do you just use it in aikido?
Dan
No we use it in MMA. I do MMA. Its a body method trained in solo work. It strengthens the bodies connections and useable strength. With it we fight. punch, kick, do takedown resistence ground fight, submit and choke.
Kevin
As I said, I have my own criteria, as selfish and personal as it maybe, so admittidly that is what I am using to try and understand this. I am not trying to be judgemental or negative, only trying to understand it based on that criteria. My criteria is mine. I donlt know if this is relevant to BJJ or grapplling
Dan
Its been used many times against BJJ. We use it in MMA though. I do MMA. Its a body method trained in solo work. It strengthens the bodies connections and useable strength. With it we fight. punch, kick, do takedown resistence ground fight, submit and choke.
Kevin
Obviously I see value in this type of training as I continue to study Aikido, and certainly anything that improves my ability to understand body movement and kinetics as it relates to Martial arts is worthwhile.
Dan
All I am interested in is how it relates to MMA. We fight. punch, kick, do takedown resistence ground fight, submit and choke.

Kevin
I'd say that someone that has designed/codified a program of study that provides a methodology for core practices with aliveness training would be on the right track, and it would keep me from having to study both aikido and BJJ.

Dan
Its tailor made for martial arts of any kind. particularly MMA. We fight. I punch, kick, do takedown resistence ground fight, submit and choke.

Kevin
I just don't understand how any of this is relevant to a more real environment. Where you would punch, kick, do takedown resistence ground fight, submit and choke.

Dan
Its a training tool to test the solo work We fight. I punch, kick, do takedown resistence ground fight, submit and choke.

Kevin
Why don't you talk about these things :how what you do relates to punching Kicking takedown resistence and chokes. I'm only interested in how I can actually use it.

Dan passes out.....
Dan wakes up with a question
Why doesn't any one. Any...Single....One......Ask men who have experienced this, what they think?

Why?

think I figured it out
They truly are not interested in any answer at all. It is why there is no direct question to the many who have felt these skills. Mike had it right.

Those who were interested have gotten out. What remains are those here who came in with an agenda, are unwilling to entertain new information. The interested ones have gotten out to try it.
It's why the debates no longer have meaning.

Dan

Last edited by DH : 04-02-2007 at 04:36 PM.
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Old 04-02-2007, 04:22 PM   #128
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Re: Ki-Aikido or Taiji - effectiveness in developing Qi?

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
I do not mean to imply that I see no value in it. I am saying I don't understand the value in it. A big difference from others I believe that are seeking to say this is crap or something along those lines. There is a difference between seeking to understand vice seeking to discredit.
Hi Kevin,

From a personal perspective that I'm going to put into a "live" environment. I've taken a kick from Dan and from Rob. Both weren't done with full "power" or else I'd be in a cast. This was done in a static environment. I stood there, they kicked. Well, not really kicked as you would probably think of it. It wasn't like a kickboxer kick or a karate kick, but more of a smooth, move the leg, take a step, contact the other person's thigh kind of kick. But, let me say again, what a force. I had no bruise from either Dan or Rob, but my thigh was sore for days.

Now, that's a relaxed, internal kick. Imagine if you're sparring with someone and there isn't any wind-up into the kick like you normally see. Instead it's as if they're just stepping forward, but instead they kick the side of your leg. Down you go.

I've felt the "no inch release" from both Dan and Mike in a static environment and they both knocked me off my feet. Now imagine if you're sparring someone and you clench. Remember, there is no wind up but there's enough power to knock someone backwards. The internal guy lets go with a no inch release and creates an opening, following it up with another hit or kick or take down. Think about that. When you train and clench, can you do a no inch release and knock someone backwards? Or do you have to wind up with a punch? Or worse, use your body muscles to try to shove them away?

That's just two examples from my personal experience. The internal stuff has quite a bit of value in it. Whether you want to invest the time in the training or not ... well, that's a whole different question.

Mark
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Old 04-02-2007, 04:26 PM   #129
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Re: Ki-Aikido or Taiji - effectiveness in developing Qi?

Mark wrote:

Quote:
As for #2, my answer is it works. Even though I don't do MMA, I can definitely see applications to using it in an MMA environment. Let me take a stab at this. If I'm "grappling" with someone and I can take their force and ground it such that it throws them off balance, then I can take advantage of their off balance to fit whatever lock or strike I want. If someone gets an armbar on me and I can negate effectively negate that, then it gives me a lot of options I wouldn't normally have with just technique.
Mark, how can you say that you can see how this would work in a MMA environment if you don't know MMA or have not trained in it? This is what is frustrating for me as a MMA guy. Guys that don't train in MMA then profess to see theorectically how it could help, but yet cannot show me how to apply it.

This is not to say it has no merit or that there is nothing Mark Murray has of value to teach me. Far from it.

My guess would be that you are probably much better at aikido than I am in an aikido kinda context. My guess is that you probably can do many things with internal skills...heck I can't even adequately demonstrate unbendable arm!

However, in a MMA environment, things might be much different, and you may not be able to demonstrate jack, if what you say is true and have no experience in it.

This is not to say that MMA is the end all and be all of that is in the spectrum of Martial Arts or budo...however, once you throw your hat into this big ring of fire...well the glove are off and now you must play within a different paradigm.

As I said above...it was a humbling experience to say..."yea, I am a aikido guy...I can hold my own." and then proceeded to get my ass handed to me by a guy with less than a years worth of training in a MMA context.

So, yes, once you bring up that term...MMA we are looking at a whole different criteria to judge realitive value of time and skills.

It is not if you can "see" how it might be helpful...it is can you demonstrate it effectively.

I take it one step further... "how is it different from what many of the top guys such as Rickson Gracie are doing?"

Pete and Ron are attempting to answer these questions, and I appreciate it.

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Old 04-02-2007, 04:36 PM   #130
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Re: Ki-Aikido or Taiji - effectiveness in developing Qi?

Mark,

Yes I did hear from many in ANV that Rob and Mike demonstrated amazing power in their kicks and punches. Impressive and worthwile to play with for sure.

I understand your enthusiam in what they have to teach.

You bring up "imagine what they could do in a clinch from that range".

This is what I really want to figure out...how you do these things in this range with so many other things going on that plays with your body, propriceptions, ability to generate power while "touching"in an alive manner....this is what is key for guys like Don and I...it goes further than core fundamentals....

This is all that is being said, there is a time and place for everything, and in MMA you don't need the best technique or plan...only one that works...this is what is important to remember once you enter this world...Pete illudes to it.

I'd say the same to you...go try MMA and see how what you learn or are learning works in that environement and then report back on your experiences, it'd be interesting to hear your impressions and views. I am not saying this sarcastically...but in a geniune way..go and do it!

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Old 04-02-2007, 04:41 PM   #131
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Re: Ki-Aikido or Taiji - effectiveness in developing Qi?

Dan,

Chill out. I have no beef with you or with this stuff. I'd be happy to meet you and train in an alive, non-compliant manner and may try and do so once I return to the states this summer. This is the only agenda I have so we have no issue that I can see, and provided that we are both being honest with ourselves and our agendas then we would both end up being best friends...so relax!

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Old 04-02-2007, 04:51 PM   #132
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Re: Ki-Aikido or Taiji - effectiveness in developing Qi?

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
Mark wrote:

Mark, how can you say that you can see how this would work in a MMA environment if you don't know MMA or have not trained in it? This is what is frustrating for me as a MMA guy. Guys that don't train in MMA then profess to see theorectically how it could help, but yet cannot show me how to apply it.
Hmmm ... well, just because I say I don't do MMA doesn't mean I'm entirely clueless. At one point in time, I did a little Shinto Muso Ryu jodo, I've done two different schools/styles of Aikido, I did just a wee bit of hapkido, and I'm training kali/silat. I know some people into judo and karate, although I don't study that. Doesn't take a certified, card carrying MMAist to understand some things and put them in a basic context. Does it mean I'm good at MMA, nope. But it does mean I can see value in certain things.

And i gave several examples. Let's take nikkyo for another example. If someone with internal skills can negate 99% of all nikkyo attempts, then it's only a matter of time before that gets applied to an armbar. You ever tap anyone out with an armbar? How about if you got an armbar on someone, crank for all your worth, and they laugh at you. How about if someone goes to do a leg takedown and nothing happens -- you don't go down.

What I don't get is how people *can not* see the value in this. So I guess I'm on the opposite side you're on, Kevin, in that regard.

Mark
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Old 04-02-2007, 04:52 PM   #133
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Re: Ki-Aikido or Taiji - effectiveness in developing Qi?

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
Mark,

Yes I did hear from many in ANV that Rob and Mike demonstrated amazing power in their kicks and punches. Impressive and worthwile to play with for sure.

I understand your enthusiam in what they have to teach.

You bring up "imagine what they could do in a clinch from that range".

This is what I really want to figure out...how you do these things in this range with so many other things going on that plays with your body, propriceptions, ability to generate power while "touching"in an alive manner....this is what is key for guys like Don and I...it goes further than core fundamentals....

This is all that is being said, there is a time and place for everything, and in MMA you don't need the best technique or plan...only one that works...this is what is important to remember once you enter this world...Pete illudes to it.

I'd say the same to you...go try MMA and see how what you learn or are learning works in that environement and then report back on your experiences, it'd be interesting to hear your impressions and views. I am not saying this sarcastically...but in a geniune way..go and do it!
Just as a side note, the Aunkai has a sanda/sparring class now. If you check the new english version of the aunkai page it references it on the schedule.

Feel free to ask Rob about his use of this stuff in an MMA environment, he regularly trains with MMA practicioners, and a couple of them have joined the Aunkai after working out with Rob. Last time I was in japan, a couple of them were doing the the exercises prior to sparring.

Asides from some of the benefits that Mark listed, you can find that you can generate power in positions that can be considered disadvantageous. This definatly takes people by surprise, and of course that opens up a whole realm of options you can follow up with.

Last edited by HL1978 : 04-02-2007 at 04:58 PM.
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Old 04-02-2007, 05:16 PM   #134
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It was a joke Kevin. I thought it was humorous. You do seem to shoot right past direct answers and ask the same one's again and again. All I have done is MMA. Even while training other things.Its what Rob does as well.
1 Takedown resistance
If you can't throw someone, or find it extremely difficult to do so due to these skills (not technique) andthe guys has the added benefit of his body taking care of itself as a defense while they nail you and toss you. That's a good thing.
2. Takedown resistnce and stabiltiy
If internal power results in you going for a single leg shoot and you not being able to lift the leg and getting elbowed or struck in your occiputall ridge repeatedly or kicked in the forehead-with increased unususal power thats a good thing
3. Power
If internal power results in punches from a clinch that can break ribs in an alive environment or knock you out cold from a single shot a foot away in a clinch. That's a good thing.
4. Moving, posting, set-ups and flow
If the inherent stucture creates whole body movement that makes it very difficult and tiring to move them on the ground -but fro some reason leaves them very relaxed and able to flow it and leaves them very sensitive to not having any opening or falling into them. A great platfrom to add technqiues to. That's a good thing.
5. Power and set-ups in stand up
If it takes no wind up in an alive environment to "throw" a punch and your hands are so heavy that without much effort you continually bind up their's all while striking with openings normal guys have trouble creating, as well as being able to control their extensions and rectractions in hittiing while nailing them repeatedly-thats a good thing
6. Absorption
Being able to absorb kicks and punchs in an alive manner while moving. Ignoring hits to the middle leaves you inreased openeing potential in then wearing down and with binding them up. Having a different type of puching power to their middle ffrom unconventional angles and means is a good thing
7. Lock resistence is throught the roof
8. Less energy used in prolonged rolling with increased breath control adn manipulation

So, takedown resistance, power, absorption, sensitivity in feel, lock resistence, conservation of energy. Anyone can say it. Everyone trains it, some achieve it in to various levels. This type of power is greater and more efficient.

But the real thing is-thought it takes longer to get-likewise it lasts longer till in old age. As well it is better way to move in your own body. There is no better way to move and generate power
Is it needed in MMA?
No! MMA is the great equalizer. Its why I do it.
Is it a better way to do MMA?
Yes!
Is it a better way to do Aikido?
Yes!

No one and nothing is unbeatable. That's stupid. But these skills give great advantages. Overall it's rather neat to be fifty and let some twenty something MMAers and Navy boxers pound on you and try to hit you and their arms die out from hitting your arms which feel like htting rubber coated steel,(a very common attribute to men with internal skills) They hit you in the stomach and you just keep coming and they get wasted trying to throw you and you go through them without much effort lifting and tossing and holding back frrom knocking them out cold. Or let Judo guys try to throw you.
Rob is experiencing this now some of my guys have as well . I don't know who else is playing in that venue.
Will top flight MMAers beat it? Of course.
Would they be better with these skills?
Yes
Will we be better when we age? Yes!

Last edited by DH : 04-02-2007 at 05:31 PM.
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Old 04-02-2007, 05:25 PM   #135
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Re: Ki-Aikido or Taiji - effectiveness in developing Qi?

I think we also have to realize that not all Judo, BJJ, MMA-ers are created equal, especially in this day and age of "cardio-MMA" getting more and more popular.

Just as all IMA guys aren't...

Judo/BJJ/MMA are often held up as a litmus test for effective martial application, even by the folks who hate it. That ought to tell us something. On whatever board you go to: aiki, CMA, JMA, combatives - there are comparison threads, questions, and often the wink-wink/nod nod in threads where this or that TMA or RBSD guy tooled an MMA, Judo, whatever guy. Names and rank are of course never mentioned...

So is it the IMA practitioner, if the guy doesn't do well, but if he does well against a BJJ-er of any skill level its the discipline(s) as a whole?

Knowing where I stand in the grappling world has been a very informative thing for me when going up against some of these guys who write "stuff" on the Internet, and whose self-aggrandzing bios place them in the lofty heights of MA or combatives "experts."

Instructor level people in some cases who can do next to nothing against a basically half-time training BJJ blue belt....they would be thoroughly owned by a decent high school wrestler or Junior National judoka.

Yet on the Internet - oh my - what they can do!!!

I am not saying Rob is like that in any way - he was very self effacing and realistic about his grappling. He is a seeker and puts it on the line and doesn't care about the outcome because he is working it out, and with some success. He has something to offer all grapplers in what he does, and I truly enjoyed meeting and training with him.

Since I have rolled with him, I confess to some surprise when he describes what is happening with blue and purple belts in Japan.He did say he thought the level of skill in light of ranking there is not as high as it is here. BJJ wise that is. I think he's right. I know what the good blues and purples are capable of, if only against me, from several different schools here in the States and I don't think, where Rob is at, he would be doing to them what he is doing in Japan.

Since I put my body where my keyboard is, I also called Dan when he was last in Seattle, and was preparing to drive up for an evening of throwing down (friendly, if skeptical, mind you) and breaking bread, but he never called me back.

Maybe next time he will.
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Old 04-02-2007, 05:48 PM   #136
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Re: Ki-Aikido or Taiji - effectiveness in developing Qi?

Hi Kit
You're on my dance card sometime.
Friendly but skepitcal??
Of what? We both been yaking up grappling for how long?. What are we going to debate?
Are you talking about the bodywork? All we may debate is whether you find these skills and aid to your game or not and how tough you may find it playing with the old man. The game is the game is the game. Leather is leather. Whadda ya think I turned into a Ki bunny? Who do you think you're talking too bubba?:smile:
As for hooking up it's getting to be ridiculous for me out there. There's just no time left man.
You speak to real issues about grapplling, but also there are issues of MMA VS pure grappling as well. Man I wish I was twenty five and single sometimes. There are just too many greats to get out and meet and I know I can't. Argghh!. There is at least some good training with both known and unknowns. I played with 6' 9" guy last year with internal skills trying to get in the UFC. Trains on 320lb. water bags. We're trying to get Tim out here to the east coast to play and teach and I'll be there hopefully as a co-sponser!! Can you spell lots of one-on-one training? I want to feel Tim's take on all this. I know he has very good BJJ skills. But I want to see if he has good internals as well.

At least we know folks don't have to be convinced any more of the truths of good grappling and MMA being the great equalizer. That's at least done. I'm an old fart I still remember the days of trashing many TMAers with simply no clue how to move and fight.

Last edited by DH : 04-02-2007 at 06:01 PM.
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Old 04-02-2007, 05:56 PM   #137
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Re: Ki-Aikido or Taiji - effectiveness in developing Qi?

Mark wrote:

Quote:
And i gave several examples. Let's take nikkyo for another example. If someone with internal skills can negate 99% of all nikkyo attempts, then it's only a matter of time before that gets applied to an armbar. You ever tap anyone out with an armbar? How about if you got an armbar on someone, crank for all your worth, and they laugh at you. How about if someone goes to do a leg takedown and nothing happens -- you don't go down.
In my limited experiences nikkyo is pretty much a non technique in MMA because it simply does not work for anyone that I have ever worked with. Not saying that it won't work, just that I have never seen it. Also, as Bob Galeone used to say...any aikido techniques can be negated or avoided if you don't want them applied and have superior skills in positioning yourself over your opponent.

Sure pain compliance has it's limitation and so do things like arm bars, the don't work every time. Anyone who has developed a decent game in grappling knows this and therefore rolls to the next thing, then to the next thing. Personally these days I don't go trolling for arm bars..if they are there they are there...if not then they are not...I worry more about the position I am in than anything else and let things develop. This is a big distinction in technique seekers and those with a little more maturity in BJJ. (Higher blue and purple on up).

Sure there are guys that can avoid takedowns...I don't really care why or how they avoid them..they do...therefore you must move on to the next thing...not stop and go "wow, you avoided my takedown...amazing!" (Aliveness)

Those with the ability to position themselves with balance, posture, timing etc better than the other guy will always control the fight and avoid arm bars, takedowns, etc...nothing magical there or suprising.

Doesn't matter to me if you call in internal or external or what not...if you can do it better than me...then I want to know how you do it, and for you to show me what is wrong.

It is really that simple. Aliveness allows this to happen.

I am all over the fact that many describe the feeling etc as being different than anything they have felt before..got it, it happens when you experience something new.

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Old 04-02-2007, 05:58 PM   #138
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Re: Ki-Aikido or Taiji - effectiveness in developing Qi?

It's cool, Dan. Everybody told me you don't call anyone back!

And I know what you mean re: grappling vs. MMA - they are different games. I think the positional game is similar, however, it depends how you use it.

As Kevin would no doubt agree, some of the same things apply combatives wise.

It'd be cool if you bring Tim out there. Let me know if that pans out I'd love to be in the same room with you two swapping notes, maybe I'll make the trip too.
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Old 04-02-2007, 06:03 PM   #139
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Re: Ki-Aikido or Taiji - effectiveness in developing Qi?

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post

Friendly but skepitcal??
Of what? We both been yaking up grappling for how long?
Sneaky, you added that in while I was replying.

Actually, I don't recall you EVER mentioning MMA back in the old Aiki-wars days on E-Budo, or elsewhere until fairly recently. It was all koryu - admittedly with some judo thrown in.

You talked about training resistance, for sure, but then again there was talk about "no touch pins" and the "electric fish flop" from Cady as well, so all I am saying is I'm keeping the salt shaker handy...

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Old 04-02-2007, 06:06 PM   #140
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Re: Ki-Aikido or Taiji - effectiveness in developing Qi?

Yeah but I want to swap note on two levels. His BJJ is supposed to be great so thats one. But then I want ot ya about the internal training he does. Nothing personal but I wonder if most just confuse the two? I'll be searching on two levels. Honestly I expect him to nail me in a pure BJJ game so that will be a fun and interesting learning experience. But its the rest where it will be more discerning.
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Old 04-02-2007, 06:27 PM   #141
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Re: Ki-Aikido or Taiji - effectiveness in developing Qi?

Quote:
Kit Leblanc wrote: View Post
Sneaky, you added that in while I was replying.

Actually, I don't recall you EVER mentioning MMA back in the old Aiki-wars days on E-Budo, or elsewhere until fairly recently. It was all koryu - admittedly with some judo thrown in.

You talked about training resistance, for sure, but then again there was talk about "no touch pins" and the "electric fish flop" from Cady as well, so all I am saying is I'm keeping the salt shaker handy...

Oooh really? It wasn't called MMA then. The aiki stuff? Ya pin head that was just more debates over what I am still debating here now. Koryu Aiki- the internals and techniques. But all done in modern fighting I don't think I ever saw a classic "form" done in my dojo. Ya missed the part where I said the cramping pins were real -very real- but highly improbable. I did them but neeever advocated even trrying them in the real world. I never even taught wrist locks as anything much useful either.
I argued then as now- on two fronts.
If you come out I'll show you some after training pictures from those days and you can be your own judge as to wehter we were aikifruity. Or you can bop on over to the internal thread hear and ask Andy the thread starter- he was training with me then. Then again ask Cady about her first day training with me?
Aiki fruity? wrong guy Kit...oh my god...wrong guy.
What you missed was- I was comng home having to train it and try it on the Judo guys and my life long playmates- my wifes two giant wresttler cousins. And my guys who could have cared less about wrist grabs. If you came to play you'd have seen knives, twin sticks, and heavy bags. I still beat the drum for Aiki, in as much as it will knock someone out or stop you from throwing me while I threw you.
You thinking I was Aikifruity is on you bud.
With a remark like that If you want to bring salt...
Make it the smelling kind. hah!
Hope to see ya soon, bud

Last edited by DH : 04-02-2007 at 06:39 PM.
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Old 04-02-2007, 06:42 PM   #142
stan baker
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Freaky! Re: Ki-Aikido or Taiji - effectiveness in developing Qi?

Hi Dan,

It seems like an excercise in tolerence on your part you should get a gold medal just for that. anyway just keep posting sagawa's quote and maybe some day they will get it. talk to you soon.

stan

Last edited by stan baker : 04-02-2007 at 06:44 PM.
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Old 04-02-2007, 06:50 PM   #143
DH
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Re: Ki-Aikido or Taiji - effectiveness in developing Qi?

Oh I think a whole bunch of folks "get it."
Many are planning on meeting and searching out folks who will share what they know.
Others who can are re-thinking their training and practicing
Others are meeting and training already
And maybe others are really bugging their own teachers to be more open.
There are a whole bunch of quiet behind-the-scenes plans going on with many. People are pretty bright. They work by networking and Word of mouth. I don't think I'm up to it, but I hope they can find some real experts. Or at least go train with as many who will share as they can.
See ya soon
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Old 04-02-2007, 07:16 PM   #144
KIT
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Re: Ki-Aikido or Taiji - effectiveness in developing Qi?

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Oooh really? It wasn't called MMA then. The aiki stuff? Ya pin head that was just more debates over what I am still debating here now. Koryu Aiki- the internals and techniques. But all done in modern fighting I don't think I ever saw a classic "form" done in my dojo. Ya missed the part where I said the cramping pins were real -very real- but highly improbable. I did them but neeever advocated even trrying them in the real world. I never even taught wrist locks as anything much useful either.
I argued then as now- on two fronts.
If you come out I'll show you some after training pictures from those days and you can be your own judge as to wehter we were aikifruity. Or you can bop on over to the internal thread hear and ask Andy the thread starter- he was training with me then. Then again ask Cady about her first day training with me?
Aiki fruity? wrong guy Kit...oh my god...wrong guy.
What you missed was- I was comng home having to train it and try it on the Judo guys and my life long playmates- my wifes two giant wresttler cousins. And my guys who could have cared less about wrist grabs. If you came to play you'd have seen knives, twin sticks, and heavy bags. I still beat the drum for Aiki, in as much as it will knock someone out or stop you from throwing me while I threw you.
You thinking I was Aikifruity is on you bud.
With a remark like that If you want to bring salt...
Make it the smelling kind. hah!
Hope to see ya soon, bud
Umm, yeah ok - so you never mentioned NHB, or UFC, or Shooto, or vale tudo or what have you back then. In fact I used to think Kiyama's Daito/Judo/Takeuchi sounded pretty damn cool, actually.

Dunno where you got Aikifruity from - Freudian slip??

And LOL at smelling salts - now THAT's what I'm talking about. This will be lots of fun.
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Old 04-02-2007, 07:47 PM   #145
Tim Mailloux
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Re: Ki-Aikido or Taiji - effectiveness in developing Qi?

I am not an MMA guy, but for the life of me, I cannot grasp how someone cannot see how this stuff will help with any type of martial arts training, especially MMA. Out of any martial arts training, I see this stuff being the most usefull to the MMA guys.

Come on, this stuff makes you harder to take down or throw and it makes you hit / kick harder. How much more does an MMA guy want.

Just from my own experience, after about 2 months of working on Dan's solo exersises everyday I am starting to see real results. And let me tell you, these exersizes are not fun! Sadistic is one word that comes to mind. But then again I am an ex aiki-bunny now hooked on judo thanks to Dan.
Back to my story. Every morning I like to get up and hit the heavy bag for 30 to 45 minutes. I am not a fighter, I do it for stress relief and as a cardio workout. I just got a new 100lb bag for Xmas, my old 80lb one finally died on me after 10 years. In the past couple of weeks I have noticed that I am hitting and kicking the bag *much* harder and with *much* less effort. When I try to put muscular strenght into my punches and kicks not so much happens, except that I get a nice cardio workout. But when I relax, focus on my structure the bag seems to jump off my gloves. I am hitting with less strenght and less velocity, but somehow my hands are much heavier. This morning the bag actually came off 3 of the 4 chains. I guess it is time for a heavier bag!

Now if I can just figure out how to us this during judo.
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Old 04-02-2007, 09:14 PM   #146
DonMagee
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Re: Ki-Aikido or Taiji - effectiveness in developing Qi?

Quote:
Tim Mailloux wrote: View Post
I am not an MMA guy, but for the life of me, I cannot grasp how someone cannot see how this stuff will help with any type of martial arts training, especially MMA. Out of any martial arts training, I see this stuff being the most usefull to the MMA guys.

Come on, this stuff makes you harder to take down or throw and it makes you hit / kick harder. How much more does an MMA guy want.

Just from my own experience, after about 2 months of working on Dan's solo exersises everyday I am starting to see real results. And let me tell you, these exersizes are not fun! Sadistic is one word that comes to mind. But then again I am an ex aiki-bunny now hooked on judo thanks to Dan.
Back to my story. Every morning I like to get up and hit the heavy bag for 30 to 45 minutes. I am not a fighter, I do it for stress relief and as a cardio workout. I just got a new 100lb bag for Xmas, my old 80lb one finally died on me after 10 years. In the past couple of weeks I have noticed that I am hitting and kicking the bag *much* harder and with *much* less effort. When I try to put muscular strenght into my punches and kicks not so much happens, except that I get a nice cardio workout. But when I relax, focus on my structure the bag seems to jump off my gloves. I am hitting with less strenght and less velocity, but somehow my hands are much heavier. This morning the bag actually came off 3 of the 4 chains. I guess it is time for a heavier bag!

Now if I can just figure out how to us this during judo.
Sounds exactly like how you are suppose to hit a bag, relaxed with proper technique. If your arms are getting tired, your usually punching wrong.

This is a mute argument for me anyways, nobody out here is teaching it.

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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Old 04-02-2007, 09:18 PM   #147
statisticool
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Re: Ki-Aikido or Taiji - effectiveness in developing Qi?

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
Where is a video of YOU doing anything, Justin?
Yet I'm not the one making claims of never being able to be pushed over, etc., etc. When I start making such claims, then you'd have a right to ask for evidence of the extraordinary.

Quote:
Who's your teacher? Have you ever studied Aikido? You've never even studied Taiji. Who was your teacher in Taiji? If he didn't teach you jin and qi skills, which from your posts he/she didn't, then he didn't teach you Taiji. Name your teacher. If you want to disparage people, put yourself on the line, too.
Already addressed elsewhere. I also already addressed that comment on aikido and taijiquan from those outside aikido and taijiquan don't carry much, if any, weight.

Justin

A secret of internal strength?:
"Let your weight from the crotch area BE in his hands."
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Old 04-02-2007, 09:25 PM   #148
Pete Rihaczek
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Re: Ki-Aikido or Taiji - effectiveness in developing Qi?

[quote=Kevin Leavitt;174386]Frankly I get confused as to the what the focus of all this is. Seems like we go through a pattern here. Proponents (those that have jumped on the bandwagon creep slowly to the fact that this is very useful...then those that say, "then why don't we see this in UFC, or in an aliveness environment ..then there is shift in definition, or a failure to define parameters...and then I am left scratching my head trying to figure out how to frame this once again.

The weight lifting thread kinda bugged me, but I refrained as I had not much positive to add. My thoughts were if weight lifing, defined core strength development, is not important, then why can I pretty much predict who will win a fight based on physical appearance 80% of the time? Also, we are we not seeing these mushy soft guys in UFC. I sort of see Justin's point, but in a slightly different way.

So, I remain confused as to the value this training might have.

/QUOTE]

It's a valid question, and if you are preparing to fight soon, and you don't have someone training you in this stuff in an open way, then your time would likely be better spent elsewhere. If you're competing, you need a good coach, and where this stuff is concerned those are very scarce. Depends entirely on your circumstances.

And for the record, Justin doesn't have a point. I was a pretty technical amateur magician for many years, attended the magicians-only lectures at the Magic Castle, big fan of Penn and Teller and Randi, and all the rest of it, and there's nothing anybody can tell me about being a skeptic. He's not being a skeptic here, he's just being a punk, and throwing all skeptics under the bus by association. There are no paranormal claims being made here, there is nothing to "debunk", and no possibility of forming a meaningful opinion without personally seeing and experiencing what is under discussion, and trying to come to a common understanding about what exactly is being said. You do that, he does none of that, and will not, because that isn't his purpose. The truth is that he simply doesn't like what Mike and others are saying because it indicates that both in Taiji (he's apparently a Zheng Manqing fan) and Aikido, his practice is empty of anything the founders of those arts would consider substantive, and he doesn't like that idea. He's not honest enough to simply say so, but it is patently obvious with every post he makes. All he does is follow Mike, Dan, and Rob around, contribute nothing of substance, and have the nerve to pretend to ask questions when all he's really doing is making the same statement over and over: "I don't want you guys to be right". There's an easier solution that doesn't display his character in public, and that's to ignore the discussion.

These threads are for those people who actually have the interest and werewithal to be perpetual students even if they are already teachers, and actually work to find things of real value and share them with others. The real artists and enthusiasts with a level of emotional maturity, not the petty egos, in other words. The only purpose someone like Justin serves is to inflate the view numbers on these threads and perhaps help attract some decent people like yourself in the process.
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Old 04-02-2007, 09:26 PM   #149
statisticool
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Re: Ki-Aikido or Taiji - effectiveness in developing Qi?

Quote:
Mark Murray wrote: View Post
I've felt the "no inch release" from both Dan and Mike in a static environment and they both knocked me off my feet. Now imagine if you're sparring someone and you clench.
But why "imagine"?

If an internal guru clenches, I can imagine them not being able to do anything due to always or primarily training in static postures with play nice rules and parameters.

I look forward to the future when UFC and similar events will be dominated by internal skills.

A secret of internal strength?:
"Let your weight from the crotch area BE in his hands."
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Old 04-02-2007, 09:31 PM   #150
statisticool
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Re: Ki-Aikido or Taiji - effectiveness in developing Qi?

Quote:
Pete Rihaczek wrote: View Post
He's not being a skeptic here, he's just being a punk, and throwing all skeptics under the bus by association. There are no paranormal claims being made here, there is nothing to "debunk", and no possibility of forming a meaningful opinion without personally seeing and experiencing what is under discussion, and trying to come to a common understanding about what exactly is being said. You do that, he does none of that, and will not, because that isn't his purpose. The truth is that he simply doesn't like what Mike and others are saying because it indicates that both in Taiji (he's apparently a Zheng Manqing fan) and Aikido, his practice is empty of anything the founders of those arts would consider substantive, and he doesn't like that idea. He's not honest enough to simply say so, but it is patently obvious with every post he makes. All he does is follow Mike, Dan, and Rob around, contribute nothing of substance, and have the nerve to pretend to ask questions when all he's really doing is making the same statement over and over: "I don't want you guys to be right". There's an easier solution that doesn't display his character in public, and that's to ignore the discussion.
I never claimed that there are "paranormal" things going on here.

But you're seriously claiming that the claim of not being able to be pushed over at all is not an extraordinary claim?

And you don't find it odd, that this supposed really really really effective way of moving hasn't won any titles in UFC, for example, competitions?

Justin

A secret of internal strength?:
"Let your weight from the crotch area BE in his hands."
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