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Old 11-26-2001, 11:17 AM   #1
Chocolateuke
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students teaching

what do you think of having students teach? I do not mean take over the class for a day.. ( although my sensi does every once in a blue moon have to go to some seminar or another and we have our very senior students teach the basics.) i mean you dallas go teach these new students how to fall backwards and forwards. I have dont this I usually end up teaching the new children how to fall and roll while others teach techneqe while the sensi helps all and corrects the mistakes and confusions. I am just wondering if any other dojos do this or not and what your veiws on this are.

Dallas Adolphsen
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Old 11-26-2001, 12:05 PM   #2
Arianah
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I belong to a fairly small dojo, so the only one who really teaches formally (which is what it sounds like you are getting at) is the sensei, while the senior-most student will sometimes give some instruction and correction while performing techniques. I think that it is fine for a sensei to have more advanced students teach the more simple things to beginners, otherwise we would be learning the basics over and over, and though reinforcement of the simple basics is good, it would cheat more advanced students if that was all that they did. As long as the student that Sensei asks to teach beginners is comfortable with it, I don't see a reason not to.

As for other students teaching one another, though I know that one is not supposed to do this, I find it very difficult not to tell the person who is nage, and who continually gets confused about how to step, how to do so. What is the etiquette surrounding this? Anyone know? I know that in a perfect world, the sensei is supposed to come around and correct everything that is going wrong, but if s/he is busy on the other side of the room, is it all right to correct or should one leave their partner to do the technique incorrectly?

Arianah
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Old 11-26-2001, 01:21 PM   #3
shihonage
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Quote:
Originally posted by Arianah
... I find it very difficult not to tell the person who is nage, and who continually gets confused about how to step, how to do so. What is the etiquette surrounding this? Anyone know? I know that in a perfect world, the sensei is supposed to come around and correct everything that is going wrong, but if s/he is busy on the other side of the room, is it all right to correct or should one leave their partner to do the technique incorrectly?
It should be relatively easy for you to kind of, not resist, but stay "solid" when the beginning nage jerks in the wrong direction, and if/when they cant figure it out, you, as a uke, should slowly and methodically go through proper ukemi movement which also familiarizes nage with what they are supposed to do.

This way you don't have to say anything.
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Old 11-26-2001, 01:47 PM   #4
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Learning experience.

Teaching is part of the learning experience. Our Sensei encourages teaching. From my experience, when one is teaching, one will discover one's strength and weaknesses.

The senior students actually have the obligation to show the correct way of doing things. Even though this would be considered disrespectful in classic budo, in modern budo this is actually encouraged, just as long as the correct way is shown.

Being able to teach what one knows actually proves that one can accept responsibility for what one has learned. But in teaching one must not have the "I'm right, you're wrong" attitude. This arrogance will teach nothing, and only bring downfall to the one who teaches. The correct attitude in teaching is "This is what I've learned, let's discuss this together, there are probably things that you could teach me". This humbleness will teach you even more about what you're teaching.

From my experience, teaching has shown me how inadequate I am in the knowledge that I am teaching and motivated me to learn even further. With the teaching process, one will discover weaknesses. And with the correct attitude given to the students and given by the students, these weaknesses could be covered.

When one teaches, one does not only teach others, but also teaches oneself. Learning by teaching, teaching by learning.
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Old 11-26-2001, 05:04 PM   #5
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Hi all,

In my dojo we have a simple law with this -"Teach what you know, if your'e not sure ask the Instructor". This applies to everything from basics to techniques.

In general, teaching something actually shows the student how much they REALLY understand of what they're doing.

Techniques and principles that one takes for granted tend to take on a whole new appearance when you have to explain it to someone who has no idea what you're talking about.

My $0.02
L.C.

--Mushin Mugamae - No Mind No Posture. He who is possessed by nothing possesses everything.--
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Old 11-26-2001, 05:57 PM   #6
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As for teaching rolls/falls: every dojo I've been in (and that's quite a few) has a more senior student show a new student how to fall their first class, and I think that is good for both. If, however, that senior student is teaching a different new student each class and never getting a chance to train, that is bad (I haven't seen this, but was told about it happening in a dojo nearby by one of those students who moved over to us). The chance to teach ukemi should be shared among several seniors.

As for 'mat-teaching' i.e., telling your partner what to do: I really dislike this. I think it robs the kohai of the chance to learn on their own. I'm not even a fan of the 'resist to teach them' method as sometimes size makes it hard for someone to resist even bad technique, some beginners just throw in more muscle--which can be dangerous to resist, especially if uke is small, and --gasp--sometimes sempai are actually WRONG in what they are trying to show and force the correct kohai to abandon the correct technique out of fear of hurting the resisting uke. I think is is just best to give a sincere, committed attack appropriate for nage to do the shown technique, at a speed appropriate to nage's level. As they go through the motions they will either get it right, or should see that you and they are not looking like what was just shown. At that point, if they are asking what they did wrong, they can be encouraged to try something different from what they did last. I think the exploring of the technique--including the wrong turns and dead ends, are important to growth. If you want to teach them, then do the technique correctly, clearly, crisply, even very very slowly if you need to---they should learn from what you are doing, not what you are saying. In my opinion.

Lastly, there is the 'after class' teaching: here I think it is fine to do all the discussing and verbalizing you want to, but I'd still encourage exploring rather than just "here is what you do, step here and grab this...". I'd also put in this section helping beginners fall/roll again, shikko, trying that technique you were doing with a kohai who just wasn't getting it in class, etc. This I think everyone should do, out of respect for all those who did it for us when we first started.

OK, I will now hop off the soap box.
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Old 11-29-2001, 06:00 PM   #7
Speireag
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Quote:
Originally posted by ca
As for 'mat-teaching' i.e., telling your partner what to do: I really dislike this. I think it robs the kohai of the chance to learn on their own. I'm not even a fan of the 'resist to teach them' method as sometimes size makes it hard for someone to resist even bad technique, some beginners just throw in more muscle--which can be dangerous to resist, especially if uke is small, and --gasp--sometimes sempai are actually WRONG in what they are trying to show and force the correct kohai to abandon the correct technique out of fear of hurting the resisting uke. I think is is just best to give a sincere, committed attack appropriate for nage to do the shown technique, at a speed appropriate to nage's level. As they go through the motions they will either get it right, or should see that you and they are not looking like what was just shown. At that point, if they are asking what they did wrong, they can be encouraged to try something different from what they did last. I think the exploring of the technique--including the wrong turns and dead ends, are important to growth. If you want to teach them, then do the technique correctly, clearly, crisply, even very very slowly if you need to---they should learn from what you are doing, not what you are saying. In my opinion.
I agree completely. Our Sensei occasionally reminds us of two things, which I will try to paraphrase here to the best of my understanding.

There is one sensei on the mat. Students should not teach other students during class. It might be okay for very senior students to offer an occasional correction, but even that should be minimized. The reasoning is simple: most students do not have the necessary skill and perception to be critiquing someone else's technique yet. Sensei keeps a close eye on everyone (our dojo is small) and if he is dissatisfied with your progress in some way, he will address it as he sees fit.

It is uke's job to be sincere and to respond naturally to nage. It is not uke's job to try to figure out what nage is going to do and try to prevent it, or to try to guide uke one way or the other, except by responding naturally and sincerely. If that response means that the technique doesn't turn out as nage expected, that's fine. That's good feedback for nage. To do anything else is to prevent uke's practice of ukemi, which is the door to understanding Aikido.

On this latter point, I have sometimes had a senior student "jam" me, and then offer instruction. Even though I generally did learn something from it, I do see Sensei's point; if possible, the student should always figure it out for him/herself. That way, the student learns it more thoroughly and intimately than if it's simply told and the student gets enough of a superficial understanding to make the movement work in that particular case.

-Speireag.

Speireag Alden
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Old 11-29-2001, 07:10 PM   #8
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As for 'mat-teaching' i.e., telling your partner what to do: I really dislike this. I think it robs the kohai of the chance to learn on their own.

If you make a comment on your partner's technique, they have the choice to consider or ignore that comment. If you keep your mouth shut, you've given them no choice.

People who want to learn on their own, generally do not take a class.
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Old 11-29-2001, 07:57 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally posted by [Censored]

If you make a comment on your partner's technique, they have the choice to consider or ignore that comment. If you keep your mouth shut, you've given them no choice.

People who want to learn on their own, generally do not take a class. [/b]
It sounds like you think Aikido is learned from being told things. I believe it is learned best through feeling (what is done to you as uke, how it feels when you are nage), next through seeing...I see very little need for words. But everyone has their own way of learning, and their own version of Aikido.
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Old 11-30-2001, 12:03 AM   #10
Roma
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Students teaching

Well I have found everyone's responses very interesting and all bring up valid points. However, I think Thalib summed it up best.

In both dojos I've practiced in, it was common for students to 'teach' other students. Not so much as giving a formal lesson, but assisting those who may require added guidance in how to perform a technique.

Obviously the sensei is not available at every moment to everyone. As a student practicing a technique for the first times, guidance from other students have been welcome and appreciated. Others have helped me by giving me something to visualize (verbally) 'draw a line in the sand', 'carry the tray', 'bring my elbow to my ear'.

I do not agree that students should not teach other students. As a classroom teacher, the students in my classes often teach other students. Obviously they do not give the formal lesson, but during guided practice they assist one another. We learn from our models. On the mat we encounter many models (ukes)and each has something to offer. If you think you are not teaching others by simply doing the technique, you are mistaken.

I have found that I am the best teacher when I am also a student and the best student when I am also a teacher.

If someone wishes to correct another and does so with kindness and intention to help each person benefits.
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Old 11-30-2001, 07:43 AM   #11
PeterR
 
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When exactly do we stop being students.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 11-30-2001, 08:05 AM   #12
ronin_10562
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"When exactly do we stop being students."

That's easy! We stop practicing and stop being students when we stop breathing

Walt

Walter Kopitov
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Old 11-30-2001, 08:15 AM   #13
Thalib
 
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That's one way to put it.

You could say it like that Kopitov-san. Basically we will never stop being student of the art. Learning is never-ending. When we teach, we teach what we are learning/studying in order for us to understand better what we are learning.

To feel that one understands totally/fully about a subject matter is quite arrogant.
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Old 11-30-2001, 12:39 PM   #14
Chocolateuke
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maybe I should have put this thread on the training section..
anyhow Sure the sensei is the head at our dojo and we are kinda like prophets who helps senseis teacings to be spread ( in the dojo out side the dojo I never give any form of instruction unless sensei says so which is never ) anyhow, Mat teaching and having your sensie tell you show such person basics are very different in my opinion.

mat teaching usually accurrs when you are a partener with someone and your both trying to learn what sensei just showed you, or somthing and one of the partners takes on role of sensie without senseis consent at all. which is usually wrong because they usually dont know the stuff them selfs. at our dojo we have a girl who came in about 1 mounth ago and i already a big mat teacher. she is about 12 years old and she has even tried to teach someone else something which she was didnt have a clue about ( kote-gashi.) luckly sensi came in to the rescue and showed both the right way.. but it is unsettling.

Having your sensei tell you to show basics or something to another student is different because: your sensei told you to "teach" and you already know what the other person is learning. Always my sensei tells us to show something that we have already tested on and have showed sensei that we do in fact know the tecq. it is the senseis call. and sure sensei does come for some polishing on both parties but the person who is learning from scratch has the skeliton of the throw at least.

this is my opinion ca might not like it nor or others but its what ive been learning by! gotta go grade papers ( Teacher aid in drivers ed they have been watching a grueling videio on drunk driving with lots of blood wich why I am on the comp!.)

Dallas Adolphsen
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Old 11-30-2001, 01:07 PM   #15
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It sounds like you think Aikido is learned from being told things.

Ha ha.

I believe it is learned best through feeling (what is done to you as uke, how it feels when you are nage), next through seeing...I see very little need for words. But everyone has their own way of learning, and their own version of Aikido.

IME most people progress very slowly without verbal assistance, it is too easy to miss the point being illustrated. Congrats if you find yourself in the minority.
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Old 11-30-2001, 07:57 PM   #16
Speireag
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Quote:
Originally posted by [Censored]
If you make a comment on your partner's technique, they have the choice to consider or ignore that comment. If you keep your mouth shut, you've given them no choice.
Yes and no. If I'm trying to apply myself fully to the training, I don't necessarily want to spend the energy evaluating my partner's comments. My partner is generally welcome to comment afterward, but while we are training, I would rather train, and concentrate on that.

Make no mistake; I sometimes want verbal feedback. I certainly have benefitted from it. And I know how to ask for it when I want it.

Since I can ask for verbal feedback if I want it, by *not* commenting, my partner frees me to work on the non-verbal level. I have found such practice to be much more worthwhile in the long run. Verbal instruction can leave you thinking that you understand something better than you do. You get a better assessment from tactile feedback.

Verbal instruction is certainly very useful but in my experience it has its place: from the sensei, or informally before or after class. I encourage you to explore the option of freeing yourself from verbal commentary, to see what you might discover.

Quote:
People who want to learn on their own, generally do not take a class.
Just because I'm not talking doesn't mean I'm not learning, and it certainly doesn't mean that I'm learning alone. I'm just able to spend my attention more fully on what we are doing, as opposed to what someone is saying.

-Speireag.

Speireag Alden
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Old 11-30-2001, 10:20 PM   #17
Abasan
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The book 'Moving Towards Stillness' has the author describing his experience in learning a particularly difficult kata. This one had him jump and turn in mid air in one sequence. He practiced and practiced it perhaps for a year or so and still he could not do it well, until one fine day, the Sensei told him to shift his weight in a particular manner. Suddenly, he found himself being able to do it with ease and 'mastery'.

He of course went back grumbling that the Sensei could have saved him all that effort if he only he was told that 'trick'. To which his wife responded, yes... but would you have listened to him then?

The 'listen' here is not just hearing what the Sensei has to say. We all hear things but seldom listen, because we don't understand what is being said or we are not yet in a situation that can bring about that understanding. So although, the rights and wrongs of teaching of fellow students on the mat is as much as a puzzle for me, I believe that teaching through words must come at the proper time, location and source. What would have made an excellant groundbreaking essay 10 years ago might be a complete utter nonsense today.

Draw strength from stillness. Learn to act without acting. And never underestimate a samurai cat.
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Old 12-01-2001, 03:28 AM   #18
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Another good point.

Good point Abas-san.

The word "teach" does not mean it has to be in an audio-visual sense. This will start getting to the philosophical sense of teaching.

Just last night, after the technique was succesfully done, my partner asked if he did the technique correctly. So I asked him back if I was faking my attack. He answered that he does not believe so. So I said that he did not need to ask me if it was done correctly or not, he will know it himself.

Most of the aikidoka at the dojo that has been practicing quite a while will know when something is not correct. From partner practice point of view, this can be achieved when there is a truthful uke-nage relationship.

What do I mean by truthful? I don't think I have to explain. I believe you all know what I mean.
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Old 12-03-2001, 03:24 PM   #19
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Yes and no. If I'm trying to apply myself fully to the training, I don't necessarily want to spend the energy evaluating my partner's comments. My partner is generally welcome to comment afterward, but while we are training, I would rather train, and concentrate on that.

Who allocates your energy? You or someone else?

Make no mistake; I sometimes want verbal feedback. I certainly have benefitted from it. And I know how to ask for it when I want it.

Do you know how to ignore it when you do not want it?

Since I can ask for verbal feedback if I want it, by *not* commenting, my partner frees me to work on the non-verbal level.

You are free regardless. Sorry, but the prison is your mind, pal.

When I practice with others who are in this same trap, I usually keep my mouth shut. Do not mistake this for the proper training method. This is giving a handicap to a beginner.
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Old 12-03-2001, 07:21 PM   #20
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I believe verbal communication with lower ranks is important. If you are training with lower grade, in particular newbies, they miss a lot of points. I guess mainly because they almost never do ukemi for sensei so they can't feel it, and secondly they don't know what to look for. So I believe it is important for sempai to help them through. But I must admit I try to keep the talk down to a minimum in order to maximise the reps. Corrections by sempai on the mat is a huge part of our learning. I have found that learning technique from a sempai with a similar body shape to mine is invaluable.

My Sensei said once, I'll give you the gist of it, our aikido is like a diamond. It is originally rough and uncut. Each time Sensei or a sempai teach you something, it's like a diamond receiving a new facet/face. The more facets the diamond gets the more valuable it becomes.

I believe that if you only learn from the one person then your diamond will become like thier diamond, and I believe it is important to create your own.
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Old 12-03-2001, 07:32 PM   #21
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Honestly, I hate it when sempais try to teach me while we are practicing. It kills the rythm and spoils my training. I have to admit however that on some occasions, the advice was very helpful to improve my Aikido and I still remember it untill now. Nevertheless, I still don't like it. I believe that each person should be allowed to find one's own way, unless they ask for help. Trial and error is the best teacher.
I admit that I surprise myself giving more advice to lower ranks than before. So I try to control myself, even though it is difficult :-) Well, this is Aikido...
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Old 12-03-2001, 10:14 PM   #22
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Quote:
Trial and error is the best teacher.
Trial and error in my opinion may not the best teacher. If it is, leave the dojo and invent a martial art by trial and error.

You have a teacher teach you because you might not have the opportunity like OSensei had in creating Aikido. Be it time, money, genius or era.

Similarly, a senior does not teach what he does not know. He only corrects what he knows to be wrong. If we let you practice a technique wrongly all the time, it would not work. If it does not work, the techniques jams, and we'll both be standing there doing nothing. Much better use of time would be for the senior to show the beginner the correct way when he gets stuck. That way senior learns by reemphasising, beginner learns hands on. By way of anology, if a beginner TKD guy spars against a senior. The senior must give chances to the beginner for him to learn something. Otherwise, the senior might not leave any openings and instead repeatedly kick the beginner to a pulp. No one learns anything there. If you still don't understand this, ask a strong senior to hold fast (no chance given) on you and see if you can perform a technique properly.

As Thalib says, be honest as uke or nage.

Draw strength from stillness. Learn to act without acting. And never underestimate a samurai cat.
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Old 12-04-2001, 01:20 AM   #23
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Well, Dear Abasan, it seems that you have never practiced in Japan. When you do, you will understand what I meant in my post ;-)
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Old 12-04-2001, 07:54 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally posted by Edward
Well, Dear Abasan, it seems that you have never practiced in Japan. When you do, you will understand what I meant in my post ;-)
Well that is a strange comment. I've trained for several years in Japan and see as much value in Ahmad's post as your own.

If your partner is near your own level or doing reasonable for his own the best training is just repeditive execution of the waza (establishing the rythm). If your kohei needs help talk, if your sempai thinks you need help listen.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 12-04-2001, 08:09 AM   #25
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teaching

We have always been instructed that in any group of students (2 or more), that whoever is senior in the group should feel free to offer help to the other(s).
If you are senior in a group of three, but sensei is watching, then it is sensei's place to make corrections, etc....
One of the main reasons for this is to avoid having too many people saying too many different things, though, hopefully, the senior students' understanding of waza will be somewhat close to Sensei's.
And certainly, if your partner asks how his/her technique feels, be honest with them to help improve their center.

-jon

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