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Old 03-20-2007, 11:25 AM   #1
aikishrine
Dojo: aikido of central new york
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Spiritual Crisis; Please Help

Hi my name is Brian and i have left a couple of threads on here recently invovling Aikido and Kali.

My problem is this, i have been training in Aikido for about 13 years now (when life doesn't get in the way) and i truly love the entire art of Aikido from the martial aspect to the spiritual and philisophical aspects.

Recently i have been training in Kali, and i truly enjoy this art as well. The problem is that in Kali weather your on offense or defense the entire aim is to maim or destroy your attacker. I struggle with this aspect even though i have a lot of fun participating in ths art.

Now i have been going back and forth with these thoughts, and my main goal is to learn this art and find away to incorporate it into my Aikido traioning in a truly Aikido way.

So i ask you is it possible to do what i am thinking or is it a situation that just doesn't make any sense.

Thank you in advance for any help in this matter.
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Old 03-20-2007, 11:32 AM   #2
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Spiritual Crisis; Please Help

Hi, I understand your conflict.

If i can serve in the Infantry and follow the tenants of Buddhism and non-violence, then it is possible I think to reconcile your issues to!

It is not easy to figure this out for yourself, and cannot be done in a few post. It took me a few years of thought, reading, introspection, and reconstruction of my perspective of the world and many, many things.

If you have specific questions on how you reconcile violent practices with non-violence/peace I would be happy to share my thoughts and experiences as I have time.

Do some reading on Boddhisatvas to start for a good analogy of the concepts of this.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bodhisattva

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Old 03-20-2007, 11:35 AM   #3
Mashu
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Re: Spiritual Crisis; Please Help

I imagine practicing Kali would show you lots of openings that need to be protected and might enhance your awareness when practicing Aikido waza.

Practicing Kali isn't forcing you to stab anyone to death so it's not like Kali is evil.
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Old 03-20-2007, 11:51 AM   #4
MM
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Re: Spiritual Crisis; Please Help

Hi Brian,

Think of Kali as the jutsu and Aikido as the do. Even in Japan, the jutsu came before the do. So, really, one must understand the jutsu aspects even if one is practicing a do.

I train in Aikido and Kali/Silat. It isn't that my Aikido is lacking, nor is it that Aikido lacks a martial application, but that I enjoy kali/silat.

Think of iaido or kendo. Many aikidoka also practice a version of iaido, kendo, kenjutsu, jodo, etc. They are old arts that have very lethal applications. Why is kali different than studying how to kill someone with a sword? You are, after all, learning to kill people. That's the same, you're just learning different methods of doing it. And kali is a bit more blatant about it.

The only person who can answer whether or not you can incorporate kali into aikido is you. But, other people have been there and done it, so there is hope.

Best of luck,
Mark
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Old 03-20-2007, 12:47 PM   #5
crbateman
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Re: Spiritual Crisis; Please Help

I think most people who have ever cross-trained have faced this dilemma to some degree. The reason you have a brain is so you can rationalize. If the Aikido philosophy of non-confrontation gives you a spiritual or moral compass on how to live your life, then that's the way you live, regardless of whatever other skills you may practice in some other martial art. Look at it this way: If I am an Aikidoka, and I decide to join a gun club in order to learn the proper way to shoot and care for a gun, that does not mean that I'm going to be walking around locked and loaded, looking for someone to kill, but I still could use the training in a situation that warrants it. Nor does it mean I can't allow myself to get very, very good with that gun. It's all about maturity and self discipline. Study what you're interested in, and live the way you think is right. They're two entirely different things
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Old 03-20-2007, 12:58 PM   #6
James Young
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Re: Spiritual Crisis; Please Help

To me it's all in the mindset of the practicioner. Aikido can be used for violence as well. Bokken and jo practice in aikido, although usually done in aikido for the purpose of enhancing aikido taijutsu, can also be used in their practical application of those weapons which would have similar results to Kali I would assume. The key to me is using these skills in the proper context and mindset. If you have a non-violent, non-conforntational aim and attitude, in whatever martial art practice you do, then in my opinion one should be able to reconcile any conflict of this sort.
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Old 03-20-2007, 03:40 PM   #7
SeiserL
 
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Re: Spiritual Crisis; Please Help

Study both too I do.
Not a problem.
Don't integrate them.
They are contextually and conceptually different.
They complement and supplement each other.
Spirituality is the acceptance and harmonizing (not incorporating) dualities.

Lynn Seiser PhD
Yondan Aikido & FMA/JKD
We do not rise to the level of our expectations, but fall to the level of our training. Train well. KWATZ!
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Old 03-20-2007, 09:57 PM   #8
Bill Danosky
 
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Re: Spiritual Crisis; Please Help

Google "mushin" and check it out.

Bazillions of case studies have found that people naturally fall back on their training under stress. So I think you can train in both styles and trust your body's natural intelligence to use the techniques appropriately.

It's nice to have soft options, but sometimes your opponent does need to be destroyed!

And do check out the mushin thing.
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Old 03-21-2007, 11:12 AM   #9
Largo
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Re: Spiritual Crisis; Please Help

A technique is a technique. Does it really matter if you do a sankyo and break someone's wrist versus doing a gunting and destroying an arm?

I would say that learning to strike and learning to avoid being stuck are important things in any martial art. How you make use of them is up to you, but it is important to have that particular skillset from which you can draw from.
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Old 03-21-2007, 04:57 PM   #10
Mark Uttech
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Re: Spiritual Crisis; Please Help

This is a fork in the road, Brian. Possibly it means your personal practice journey is deepening. Crisis also means Opportunity in Chinese kanji. What I did in my own journey, was I bid myself to do aikido for ten years first before taking on another art. After ten years, I bid myself to do another ten years. Now I have begun my third ten years. I have not had any type of crisises. I just keep going with aikido.

In gassho,

Mark
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Old 03-22-2007, 02:16 AM   #11
Edwin Neal
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Re: Spiritual Crisis; Please Help

don't get bogged down in the "philosophy" of aikido... aikido is for maiming and destroying your enemy too... but having the knowledge and skill to avoid this if it is necessary and appropriate... both aikido and kali (i study arnis) are martial arts i see no problem but the one you put there... practice hard and learn all you can... good luck...

Edwin Neal


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Old 03-22-2007, 11:32 AM   #12
James Davis
 
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Re: Spiritual Crisis; Please Help

Quote:
Brian Northrup wrote: View Post
My problem is this, i have been training in Aikido for about 13 years now (when life doesn't get in the way) and i truly love the entire art of Aikido from the martial aspect to the spiritual and philisophical aspects.
Me too. It's given me more options when dealing with difficult people, and made me less of a difficult person.
Quote:
Brian Northrup wrote: View Post
Recently i have been training in Kali, and i truly enjoy this art as well. The problem is that in Kali weather your on offense or defense the entire aim is to maim or destroy your attacker. I struggle with this aspect even though i have a lot of fun participating in ths art.
Don't let this upset you so much; this training has value. Though some on this forum may disagree with me, I think there are some things worth fighting - even killing for.

Quote:
Brian Northrup wrote: View Post
Now i have been going back and forth with these thoughts, and my main goal is to learn this art and find away to incorporate it into my Aikido traioning in a truly Aikido way.

So i ask you is it possible to do what i am thinking or is it a situation that just doesn't make any sense.

Thank you in advance for any help in this matter.
Every time you spare someone from something you could have done, and do something less harmful, your aikido is showing. If you want to be non-violent, then keep practicing aikido. Hopefully, it will make your options more apparent if your in (God forbid) a life threatening situation.

If I'm by myself, and I'm attacked on my way through the parking lot when I leave work tonight, I'm going to try to make my aikido work for their benefit as well as mine.

If I'm outnumbered somewhere and I have my little ten month old daughter with me, I will do whatever it takes to get her to a safe place. Some may think that mindset to be wrong, but I've felt right about it since the day she was born.

Keep training and gathering whatever knowledge you can. Even if you never have to use it, it may save the life of someone you later train.

"The only difference between Congress and drunken sailors is that drunken sailors spend their own money." -Tom Feeney, representative from Florida
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Old 03-22-2007, 01:59 PM   #13
Mike Galante
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Cool Re: Spiritual Crisis; Please Help

Hi Brian,

It seems to me that you have a need for a "real martial art" in order to incapacitate or somehow immobilize or something to the "opponent" . But for me, if you train and learn as O'Sensei taught, you probably will not be attacked, in the first place, and if you do, your training will enable you to be protected.
A truly committed attack is easy to deal with in Aikido.
Secondly, there are many openings which become available for strikes and breaks if you want to do these things.
But, to be concerned only with the martial aspect is to miss out on the very great message of our founder.
When I started training in 1970, I came fresh from Karate competition. At first, it was difficult, but as time passed, I became more confident that a fighting mind was not necessary. I don't think you can train successfully to master both arts. If you do the kali with the mind of an aikidoist, then why do kali? If you do Aikido with fighting mind then it is not Aikido.
Let go of fighting mind. Let go of the desire nature. Be in the peaceful stillness of the void, then no attacker can ever harm you. Your desire to be protected will be fulfilled by the nature of the universe if you align with it with all your heart and soul.

Just my 02

All the Best in your endeavors.
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Old 03-23-2007, 06:17 AM   #14
aikishrine
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Smile Re: Spiritual Crisis; Please Help

thank you all for your input, i have found it to be greatly helpful, and my appriciation is boundless

i have figured out exactly what i need to do, and how to go about it
spiritual crisis resolved
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Old 03-23-2007, 06:28 AM   #15
Largo
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Re: Spiritual Crisis; Please Help

So, what did you decide to do?
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Old 03-23-2007, 04:23 PM   #16
aikishrine
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Re: Spiritual Crisis; Please Help

i have decided to train in both, stay more on the AIKI path, and find a way to put in bits and pieces of kali were applicable, i realize that i will have to learn the whole art of kali in order to achieve this end, but i believe that it is possible. my main focus has to be spiritual in nature, but also not forget the martial aspect of training (fudoshin)
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Old 03-23-2007, 06:04 PM   #17
tarik
 
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Re: Spiritual Crisis; Please Help

Quote:
Brian Northrup wrote: View Post
i have decided to train in both, stay more on the AIKI path, and find a way to put in bits and pieces of kali were applicable, i realize that i will have to learn the whole art of kali in order to achieve this end, but i believe that it is possible. my main focus has to be spiritual in nature, but also not forget the martial aspect of training (fudoshin)
Aikido's techniques, properly done are all CUTTING movements and therefore killing movements. A lot of the sharpness has gone out of a lot of aikido training because of the philosophy being applied directly to the techniques, as opposed to the individual's spirit and will. The issue is not the philosophy, it is how where and when it is applied.

The do in aikido is not what we do on the mat, that is jutsu and the cuttingness should not be lost because it makes us uncomfortable or pushes our buttons. This is indeed, how the do comes to affect us and our training. The do is how we allow and actively study what we do on the mat and learn to shape us and our perceptions and our desires.

I don't see kali or any other 'deadly' art as having any negative affect on those principles.

Tarik

Tarik Ghbeish
Jiyūshin-ryū AikiBudō - Iwae Dojo

MASAKATSU AGATSU -- "The true victory of self-mastery."
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Old 12-06-2007, 11:39 AM   #18
Paul Milburn
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Re: Spiritual Crisis; Please Help

Hi Brian,
I think it all has to do with intention. Sometimes, martial arts ask us to train in ways whic can seem to violate our natures or which can seem hostile. The outer forms often have to be this way in order to bring out certain things in us. You can practice to maim without ever doing so or intending to do so.... what I mean is, some aikido techniques can be painfull and potentially devastating, but we practice with love and peace toward uke. It seems contradictory but isnt really.
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