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Old 10-08-2001, 04:03 PM   #1
L. Camejo
 
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Dojo: Ontario Martial Arts
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Exclamation Aikido and beginners from other MA

Hi Aiki people,

I have a question for those of you who have ever had beginners who had come from experience in other MA, especially some of the more aggresive ones like many of the jujutsu styles, ninjutsu, striking/knock down karate styles or any other you may think of.

Do any of these students continuously aim to seek contests of strength or technique with other students and on the odd occasion, the instructor himself? Even during class?

It has been my experience that some (and I stress that SOME) students of these styles tend to come with a sort of mental pre-programming of combat that does not always see eye to eye with Aikido's principles of harmony and non-violence. As such, it tends to be very hard for them to accept the concept of self defence without needing or wanting to damage someone.

Anyone ever experience this? Any ideas on how to handle it without placing one of them in orbit one day?

Your thoughts please.

Arigato Gozaimasu
L.C.

--Mushin Mugamae - No Mind No Posture. He who is possessed by nothing possesses everything.--
http://www.tntaikido.org
http://www.mushinkan.ca
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Old 10-08-2001, 05:05 PM   #2
Chocolateuke
Dojo: Muhu Dojo
Location: Middle of nowhere in California 14 miles from Buellton
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Red face

accually there are some people with prevouse MA experiance before aikido who particiapet in these fourms! I am one of them and I never really saw the point in challenging the Sensei (Mainly because he would whop me)! anyhow I acually think the transition from a more "agrressive" art to aikido is very smooth on the contry but of course i am just being me!

Dallas Adolphsen
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Old 10-08-2001, 07:24 PM   #3
michaelkvance
Dojo: Aikido Center of Los Angeles
Location: Montrose, CA
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While some MAs may be more inclined to this sort of behaviour, I've only seen it from other aikidoka at our dojo. Nothing serious, just other people have learned in a different environment. In time they adjust... or they leave.

m.
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Old 10-09-2001, 12:53 AM   #4
Datamike
Dojo: Aikibudo Turku ry.
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Thumbs down Personal Experiences

I find this very intresting 'cause I personal shifted from Tae Kwon Do to Aikido. It wasn't volunteer but from doctor's orders (too long story to be told here). I found myself in a position where I used a lot of strenght, and unconciously reacted like I had in Tae Kwon Do. It took me a while to get over it and acquire a move smoother approuch.

I find it a bit offensive towards other martial arts that they are often considered (mainly by aikidokas) to be aggressive and full of steam. Not so. Most martial arts try to achieve the same thing as practitioner of aikido. They just do it with different methods.

As a pretty intresting example of an aikidoka's blindess towards other MAs, I can tell you about an incident that occured in our dojo. My teacher was instructing the class that day and we had several new members. One of them was a formal practitioner of Jujutsu. After one thing lead to another my teacher asked him to come help him show a technique. The attack was a men tsuki (punch to the face). First he showed it very slowly so we could see how it was done. And then he told the man to really throw a punch, so we could see what the technique would look like in action.

WAM! The first flew and knocked my teacher on mat. Almost broke his nose. He simply wasn't able to catch the fist in time, nor did he have time to step away from it.

I have seen several, similar cases, and that has taught me also to respect the practitioners of other martial arts.

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Old 10-09-2001, 10:13 AM   #5
BC
Location: Chicago, IL
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I've found it pretty common to have beginners show up at our dojo with experience in other martial arts (myself included). A few of them show some skepticism of aikido's "effectiveness," and some of them leave while others stay. Actually, a pretty significant percentage of the senior students and instructors in our dojo have previous experience in other martial arts to one degree or another.

In terms of these folks trying to resist techniques or use strength, I don't believe I've seen them show any more tendency to do so. Rather, the opposite seems to be true - that those with experience in other arts (that stay) have a tendency to not resist. Maybe because they know from experience in the other art(s) that this could get them into trouble. This was definitely the case for me.

The biggest general difference I've seen between aikido students with experience in other martial arts versus those without is in the attacks they provide. In many cases, those with other martial arts experience seem to be more willing and/or able to provide stronger, more committed attacks when acting as uke. Of course, this is all just my opinion, and I could be completely wrong.

Regards,

Robert Cronin
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Old 10-09-2001, 10:58 AM   #6
shihonage
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Re: Personal Experiences

Quote:
Originally posted by Datamike

WAM! The first flew and knocked my teacher on mat. Almost broke his nose. He simply wasn't able to catch the fist in time, nor did he have time to step away from it.
Why didn't he "step away" before even telling the guy to punch ?
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Old 10-09-2001, 12:06 PM   #7
PeterR
 
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Re: Re: Personal Experiences

Quote:
Originally posted by shihonage


Why didn't he "step away" before even telling the guy to punch ?
One of my students was a boxer.

I was teaching taisabaki and told him to punch. My taisabaki was too soon. I moved, he shifted and I had tears in my eyes.

Most good Aikidoists I know - have had experience in other martial arts.

The biggest problem is a new student who has limited knowledge of the martail art he did before. Karate for a year, maybe once a week, big problem. etc

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 10-09-2001, 03:07 PM   #8
L. Camejo
 
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Ai symbol

Hi all,

Thank you for the replies. I agree with most of what you all say regarding practitioners from other MA, in fact most of my best students have done some other form of MA (especialy Tae Kwon Do) before Aikido.

Also, I apologise if I led you all to believe that I felt that people from other MA were "aggressive" in some form as a result of their training. I myself trained in some Karate and Judo, before Aikido also. I guess "aggressive" was the best word I could use to describe a very abstract feeling that I get from some of those who come from other styles (these, however are in the vast minority, most are very cool).

You have also made me realise that I should explain myself further.

I think PeterR hit the nail on the head in referring to those who have "limited" knowledge of their previous arts. I think this tends to create confusion in some people as their mind/body coordination is being redesigned by different MA at the same time.

The problem I think arises when these folks come to Aikido without "emptying their glass" so to speak and try to make Aikido conform with what they've learnt (or are learning) in other MA and not approaching with a totally open mind to Aikido practice

I guess the hidden question here is whether MA who come to Aikido to show how good they are at some other style or to get an ego trip should even be in an Aikido class, and doesn't the instructor have a duty to protect the other students from those who have this desire to show off at their Uke's expense?

Please keep the comments coming, they are really helpful.

Arigato Gozaimashita
L.C.

--Mushin Mugamae - No Mind No Posture. He who is possessed by nothing possesses everything.--
http://www.tntaikido.org
http://www.mushinkan.ca
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Old 10-09-2001, 11:37 PM   #9
Datamike
Dojo: Aikibudo Turku ry.
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Thumbs down Hidden Question

Ego trips are not welcome on my class. Not that I have a lot to say in the matter (not my dojo) but if I notice a particular person who is only there to boost their ego I usually make their lives pretty hard on the mat. Either they get rid of that "extra ego" or I "eventually" get rid of them.

It can be very harmful for the other students in the class and I even know of a incident where a certain student (ego trip) earned the "dislike" of others.

And shall such a practitioner make it through to 4th or above in kyu grades you can rest sure that the superb ego will never leave the guy. Trust me, I know...

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Old 10-10-2001, 07:26 AM   #10
L. Camejo
 
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Re: Hidden Question

Quote:
Originally posted by Datamike
Ego trips are not welcome on my class. Not that I have a lot to say in the matter (not my dojo) but if I notice a particular person who is only there to boost their ego I usually make their lives pretty hard on the mat. Either they get rid of that "extra ego" or I "eventually" get rid of them.

It can be very harmful for the other students in the class and I even know of a incident where a certain student (ego trip) earned the "dislike" of others.

And shall such a practitioner make it through to 4th or above in kyu grades you can rest sure that the superb ego will never leave the guy. Trust me, I know...
Thanks a lot Datamike, this is what I was getting at from the beginning.

Certain students have even specifically requested not to train with those individuals
for reasons similar to those which you have pointed out.

I tend to see training with a "difficult" person as a challenge to ourselves that we should try even harder to harmonise with that person i.e. "If your heart is large enough to envelop your aggressor you should see right through his attack"-O-Sensei. However, I think this does have its limit, especially where one's safety is being compromised.

Any other views?

L.C.

--Mushin Mugamae - No Mind No Posture. He who is possessed by nothing possesses everything.--
http://www.tntaikido.org
http://www.mushinkan.ca
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Old 10-24-2001, 07:12 AM   #11
j0nharris
Dojo: Kododan Aikido USA
Location: Radford Virginia
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ego....

Being at a university, we get a fair number of students with other MA backgrounds, and as mentioned before, it the people with limited experience that are the hardest to work with.
Last year, though, we had a judoka who joined us, maybe 18 or 19 years old -- and just a huge burly guy. One evening he was working with another new student, a petite, timid girl who was really struggling to become comfortable on the mat and with all the physical contact.
I forget what the technique was, but Sensei specifically told him to be careful with her and not use the muscling of judo when throwing her.... The next thing we know, he didn't get out of the way of her atemi, and was holding his bloody nose
For some unknow reason, he never did come back after that . Talk about having your ego burst....

-jon

jon harris

Life is a journey...
Now, who took my @#$%! map?!
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Old 10-24-2001, 03:54 PM   #12
deepsoup
Dojo: Sheffield Shodokan Dojo
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Re: ego....

Quote:
Originally posted by j0nharris
I forget what the technique was, but Sensei specifically told him to be careful with her and not use the muscling of judo when throwing her.... The next thing we know, he didn't get out of the way of her atemi, and was holding his bloody nose
For some unknow reason, he never did come back after that . Talk about having your ego burst....

-jon
Speaking as a large-ish (about 230 pounds) former judoka, I cant think of anything that would have encouraged me to keep coming more.

Sean
x
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Old 10-24-2001, 05:27 PM   #13
[Censored]
 
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The next thing we know, he didn't get out of the way of her atemi, and was holding his bloody nose
For some unknow reason, he never did come back after that


That'll teach him for being so burly! Grrl power!

Seriously though, I think the problem has little to do with training in other schools, and a lot to do with a simple lack of experience. I get the most grief from people with no other MA training, and who want to tell me how and why all my movements are wrong.
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