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Old 03-17-2007, 04:41 PM   #101
Ecosamurai
 
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Re: Dan, Mike, and Aikido

Quote:
Ellis Amdur wrote: View Post
Mike H. wrote:

Shimizu Kenji quoting Ueshiba Morihei yelling at the assembled uchi-deshi when he unexpectedly dropped by practice.
Lol, you got me. Eloquently put as ever.

I do think that logic dictates that the founder is a special case with regards to that, after all he was aikido until he died and what he said it was was the definition I suppose.

In either case it would beg the question. Was Morihei Ueshiba 'outside of aikido' when he said that?

Mike

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Old 03-17-2007, 04:58 PM   #102
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Re: Dan, Mike, and Aikido

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Mike Haft wrote: View Post
The problem is I'm a stubborn guy as is Dan. I still don't quite understand how this all happened when we basically agree. I do think that what Dan does is valuable, but I don't think it is aikido. I don't think that someone with the ego to tell others that what they are doing is wrong and that we should all be doing his stuff is doing aikido at all.

Mike
Hi Mike,

Gotta disagree with you here. The base skills Dan uses are, in effect, aiki. Now, you can find aiki in a whole lot of places used in a whole lot of manners. I'm sure you'd even find it in some koryu. You can definitely find it in some Daito ryu.

And yes, how one uses internal skills is different among the various martial arts and artists. Takeda used it differently than Ueshiba. Shioda wasn't a mirror of his teachers, neither was Tohei. Tomiki went completely in a different direction, but they all had it.

As Ueshiba hinted at, each person will find their own way. His way was more spiritual and I actually find Ledyard's posts very informative in that area.

Is it aikido? Yeah, just as much as what Shioda, Tohei, Tomiki, Ueshiba, Takeda, etc used. Just varying degrees of skill and personal interpretation in action are the differences. Or do you think Shioda, Tohei, Tomiki, etc all looked the same when they did aikido? For that matter, if they're doing it right, why is all their techniques different? Hmmm ...

Mark
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Old 03-17-2007, 04:59 PM   #103
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Re: Dan, Mike, and Aikido

I speculate that he found himself so.

Best

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Old 03-17-2007, 06:50 PM   #104
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Re: Dan, Mike, and Aikido

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Hi Mike,

Gotta disagree with you here. The base skills Dan uses are, in effect, aiki. Now, you can find aiki in a whole lot of places used in a whole lot of manners. I'm sure you'd even find it in some koryu. You can definitely find it in some Daito ryu.

And yes, how one uses internal skills is different among the various martial arts and artists. Takeda used it differently than Ueshiba. Shioda wasn't a mirror of his teachers, neither was Tohei. Tomiki went completely in a different direction, but they all had it.
Some interesting things to think about. I'll sleep on it and maybe reply tomorrow.

Regards

Mike

"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."
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Old 03-17-2007, 06:55 PM   #105
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Re: Dan, Mike, and Aikido

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Ellis Amdur wrote: View Post
I speculate that he found himself so.

Best
In which case how would you go about distinguishing between aikido-1 as the art and skills practiced by the founder and aikido-2 the organisational beast that commonly bears the name 'aikido'?

Mike

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Old 03-17-2007, 08:52 PM   #106
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Re: Dan, Mike, and Aikido

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Joshua Reyer wrote: View Post
Why is the KNK so conspicuously absent from the Aiki Expos/Friendship Demos, despite the presence of so many "outsiders"? I'm not casting blame there; I truly don't know why top KNK shihan weren't there. But I suspect whatever reason it is, is also why Mike, Dan, and other "outsiders" have proven to be the catalyst, at least in a small way, for many to re-examine their aikido, and what they should be able to do.
It is actually politics, big time. So you are right "outsiders" would be necessary for many who have drank the kool-aid of their organizations that what Ki Society does is extra and not needed to do aikido well. So while I sometimes wonder if Mike, Dan, and others don't have cajones bigger than Dennis's cantalopes for the the tone they take, I also remember the Ki wars on Aikido-L in the 90's especially for years before any cross style Aikido-l seminars. There was a great deal of hostility on that list that anything on here pales in comparison to. Those aikido-l seminars were small affairs, more low key, and the participation of a KNK Shihan who believed in being open and that communication and exchange of ideas was very worthwhile.

While Stan Pranin and his family in Japan certainly had social relationship with Tohei's family privately, when it came to aikido publicly he was very much on the other side of the divide having been closely associated with the Aikikai through Iwama. Though Stan's four part interview of Tohei Sensei in AJ definitely was long overdue you definitely saw that he caught a great deal of flack for it. Stan had zero communication or relationship with high ranking ki society shihan on this side of the Pacific. It also certainly didn't help that shihan from groups splintered from Ki society like AAA and Shin Budo Kai were there. So for Ki Society being there officially, I think it was a matter of trust. Is also is that many in KNK are getting internal aspects in their practice so they don't see a great need to go looking for it. Others like me just like playing with and meeting different people, so while a number of us KNK yudansha have gone we definitely have kept a low profile and that's not a problem.

Also by having Imaizumi Sensei, head of the Shin Budo Kai, featured at one of the Aiki Expo's, there was essentially a top Ki Society Shihan featured. Doing a seminar with Imaizumi Sensei for is essentially coming home to the way I started my practice.
It should be noted that he simply taught waza and demonstrated waza and he neither shared nor was he solicited to share any of the internal stuff which he knows. Now that I am thinking about it, it was a bit sad that people were falling over themselves to pick up stuff from outsiders like the Systema guys but essentially ignoring someone like Imaizumi Sensei. So I don't think there was much upside for KNK Shihan to be there given what I saw.

Last edited by kironin : 03-17-2007 at 08:55 PM.

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Old 03-17-2007, 09:07 PM   #107
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Re: Dan, Mike, and Aikido

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Ellis Amdur wrote: View Post
Now let's not get our knickers in a twist. I'm not saying Dan or Mike is Ueshiba. Who knows, they might be better.
Oooooohhhh

I am going to have to test your Araki Ryu for that !

time for a sword duel!

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Old 03-17-2007, 09:42 PM   #108
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Re: Dan, Mike, and Aikido

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Oooooohhhh

I am going to have to test your Araki Ryu for that !

time for a sword duel!
Try his Toda-ha Buko-ryu naginata instead. It's more elegant.
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Old 03-17-2007, 10:30 PM   #109
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Re: Dan, Mike, and Aikido

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Ellis Amdur wrote: View Post
I speculate that he found himself so.
He was retired and came back from outside, looking back in, at his own creation.

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Mike Haft wrote: View Post
In which case how would you go about distinguishing between aikido-1 as the art and skills practiced by the founder and aikido-2 the organisational beast that commonly bears the name 'aikido'?
Mike
Aikido 1
Daito ryu based Aiki-no-jutsu. With Ueshiba now doing aiki without drawing men in -which is the DR way. Instead, in keeping with his new vision, he casts out his ukes and projects. He found a way to stop attacks without harming those attacking. His ukes jumping and avoiding the power and being cast-off start to roll more then breakfall. The resultant "shape" of their bodie's being controlled- largely shaping the syllabus from one setting to the next.
With Ueshiba -all the while knowing- the real art? Didn't have a friggin thing to do with one, single, waza. The waza are essentially meaningless and secondary. Moreover he knew the real source was to develope in-yo ho (DR) in you. Morihei had now realized technique was not not needed, and this realization allowed his vision of peace. His internal skills were already prevelant wherever and whenever he chose. When someone came into contact with that?
It.... made aiki happen.
Oddly according to some witnesses it was during this period he himself left....and went to the Kodokan to train with Judo guys. Who apparently couldn't throw him.
Hmm............biting my tongue

Aikido 2
Ueshiba Kissomaru codifying the waza and fornally setting up a collection of techniques into a set of waza to be practiced. The external expressions now takng aiki for the first time-outside the body- and degenrting it into large external "connection movements" noe called Aiki. These circles, whether large or small were simply not the interal skills of the real Aiki of Ueshiba. They were contrary to what Ueshiba was expressing in his body. Many/most/all of the young toughs-freely admitting they couldn't wait for the old man to shut-up so they could train- and they went on to do weak semi-cooperative jujutsu. What was he to do? They said they didn't want to listen and even couldn't understand him. So I'd guess, he played with them and did Koryu Ukemi. With them confusedly trying to figure it all out. Then he'd leave them. With them going back to do more Kotegaeshi, Shhonage or what have you.
To coin a phrase. The engine left the station.....and the train.
Thus Aiki-do was born.
And both Tohei and Shioda....left.

So maybe some listened- Like Tenryu, maybe most didn't. Who can really say. There were plenty of talented men. But the old crew, who had done DR with him had mostly left before the NEW Aikido was born. Men being men I'd bet more then afew sought out old timers looking for wisdom.

Dan

Last edited by DH : 03-17-2007 at 10:43 PM.
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Old 03-18-2007, 05:38 AM   #110
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Re: Dan, Mike, and Aikido

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So while I sometimes wonder if Mike, Dan, and others don't have cajones bigger than Dennis's cantalopes for the the tone they take, I also remember the Ki wars on Aikido-L in the 90's especially for years before any cross style Aikido-l seminars. There was a great deal of hostility on that list that anything on here pales in comparison to.
I remember the Ki-wars well. Which is why I've said time and time again that Dan and Mike being here and saying such things is essentially just another Ki war. I've seen it all before, seen everything they've said before. I suppose that explains some of my feelings towards it all, I've been involved in this stuff before on aikido-l, ten years ago. I learned eventually that it was better to keep quiet and just keep doing what I do, try to make myself better at it and occasionally take the opportunity to learn from people who do other things as it can be very enlightening.

But if Dan and Mike want to fight Ki War XXXVII. Then I suppose they can....

Regards

Mike

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Old 03-18-2007, 05:47 AM   #111
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Re: Dan, Mike, and Aikido

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Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Aikido 1
Daito ryu based Aiki-no-jutsu. With Ueshiba now doing aiki without drawing men in -which is the DR way. Instead, in keeping with his new vision, he casts out his ukes and projects. He found a way to stop attacks without harming those attacking. His ukes jumping and avoiding the power and being cast-off start to roll more then breakfall. The resultant "shape" of their bodie's being controlled- largely shaping the syllabus from one setting to the next.
With Ueshiba -all the while knowing- the real art? Didn't have a friggin thing to do with one, single, waza. The waza are essentially meaningless and secondary. Moreover he knew the real source was to develope in-yo ho (DR) in you. Morihei had now realized technique was not not needed, and this realization allowed his vision of peace. His internal skills were already prevelant wherever and whenever he chose. When someone came into contact with that?
It.... made aiki happen.
Oddly according to some witnesses it was during this period he himself left....and went to the Kodokan to train with Judo guys. Who apparently couldn't throw him.
Hmm............biting my tongue

Aikido 2
Ueshiba Kissomaru codifying the waza and fornally setting up a collection of techniques into a set of waza to be practiced. The external expressions now takng aiki for the first time-outside the body- and degenrting it into large external "connection movements" noe called Aiki. These circles, whether large or small were simply not the interal skills of the real Aiki of Ueshiba. They were contrary to what Ueshiba was expressing in his body. Many/most/all of the young toughs-freely admitting they couldn't wait for the old man to shut-up so they could train- and they went on to do weak semi-cooperative jujutsu. What was he to do? They said they didn't want to listen and even couldn't understand him. So I'd guess, he played with them and did Koryu Ukemi. With them confusedly trying to figure it all out. Then he'd leave them. With them going back to do more Kotegaeshi, Shhonage or what have you.
To coin a phrase. The engine left the station.....and the train.
Thus Aiki-do was born.
And both Tohei and Shioda....left.

So maybe some listened- Like Tenryu, maybe most didn't. Who can really say. There were plenty of talented men. But the old crew, who had done DR with him had mostly left before the NEW Aikido was born. Men being men I'd bet more then afew sought out old timers looking for wisdom.

Dan
For once I've found nothing to disagree with you on A perfect illustration for you or anyone else: Go find aikido journal footage of O Sensei practicing the rowing exercise with Terry Dobson and watch how he does it. Then find footage of the second Doshu doing same exercise and note how he is not using his centre. Watch Tohei doing the same exercise.

From what I understand the rowing exercise is one of the fundamental ones that the founder used to develop his internal skills. I would definitely recommend anyone look up 'The Rites of Spring' as preserved by Michio Hikitsuchi Sensei. I believe that these exercises probably contain many of the essential methods used by the Founder to develop his internal power, he practiced them daily aparently (Some of these breathing methods and exercises are preserved in Ki Soc exercises, but notably not all of them). Fascinatingly they seem to be very Oomoto Kyo in essence, which perhaps explains why Hikitsuchi Sensei kept them in their entirety and nobody else did (at least as far as I'm aware anyway, but don't take my word for it as I'm not a historian).

Regards

Mike

"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."
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Old 03-18-2007, 08:26 AM   #112
Marc Abrams
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Re: Dan, Mike, and Aikido

Craig:

I was one of Imaizumi Sensei's "crash-test dummies" and worked hard to get him to participate in the expo. Stanley gave him permission to do what ever he wanted to do. It is not that Imaizumi Sensei does not share his knowledge of the "internal stuff" it is simply in the manner that he does so that is difficult for people to "get." He is a very private/quiet man who allows his application of waza to demonstrate and teach what he knows. He teaches the "internal stuff" through his teachings of waza. Out of respect for Ki Society, his direct curriculum of "ki exercises" is now taught under the rubric of "Genkido." His emphasis on this foundation was clearly noted when he said at the public dinner that the emphasis should be on senior instructors teaching beginners. By the same token, he has always been open to my exploring aspects of other instructors (regardless of the art), and viewed it as a good thing that I took time out to work with the Systema people. He does not have the ego problem that results in a message being sent out that you should not venture out of "his circle." He is very careful to say that he teaches what has been taught to him (as opposed to what he knows) and expects his students to be open to learning and sharing.

Dan:

It is my understanding that senior instructors (not O'Sensei's son) were responsible for codifying waza. I also think that some of O' Sensei's later students were able to both project the uke away from an attack and also bring them in to control them. Imaizumi Sensei demonstrates both. My own personal preference is to keep the person within with space to control them on the way down, and when they are down. As an old wrestler, I know full well that the person going down is still a real threat. In my own training, I am working hard at what Ushiro Sensei talked to me about in regards to receiving technique in a manner that allows me to find openings to attack.

Hope everybody had a safe and not too intoxicated St. Pat.'s Day.

Marc Abrams
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Old 03-18-2007, 08:40 AM   #113
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Re: Dan, Mike, and Aikido

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From what I understand the rowing exercise is one of the fundamental ones that the founder used to develop his internal skills. I would definitely recommend anyone look up 'The Rites of Spring' as preserved by Michio Hikitsuchi Sensei. I believe that these exercises probably contain many of the essential methods used by the Founder to develop his internal power, he practiced them daily aparently...Fascinatingly they seem to be very Oomoto Kyo in essence, which perhaps explains why Hikitsuchi Sensei kept them in their entirety and nobody else did.
Mr. Haft,

Funakogi undo, as well as furitama, were (are?) practiced at the Kumano Juku Dojo each keiko, without fail. By one and all. And with a religious fervor, too, as I remember it. (My time in Shingu was in the early/mid-nineties, so I'm not sure what's going on there, post-Hikitsuchi S.)
The shihan there were all amazing technicians, and very capable. But I can tell you without reservation that none of them felt anywhere close to what Dan and his students are able to do (although I've heard relative comparisons, I can't add Akuzawa or Mike Sigman into the mix. I just haven't felt what they can do). Were they holding out on me? It's possible. But why hold this stuff back?
Do I think that the exercises taught at Shingu (and elsewhere, mind you) can work internal skill? Probably, but you need to have the engine to do so, and *that* wasn't taught in Shingu, as far as I could tell (feel) from those around me.
Consider it like Taiji forms - lots of people know them, and are probably incredibly dilligent about practicing them. But what can they do? (Sorry, but I've felt enough push-hands from Taiji folks...consider me underwhelmed).
So there is great value in funakogi undo, etc, but only if the (sorry, can't resist) baseline skills are taught first.

Also, it is possible that Omoto Kyo seeped into these exercises (or might have been the origin of), but the only team Hikitsuchi was rooting for was the Shinto home team. Best to get in touch with either Anno Motomichi about that, or even Clint George.

Sincerely,
Murray McPherson
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Old 03-18-2007, 09:52 AM   #114
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Re: Dan, Mike, and Aikido

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The shihan there were all amazing technicians, and very capable. But I can tell you without reservation that none of them felt anywhere close to what Dan and his students are able to do
I'm afraid I know nothing of the people or place you mention. I only sought to point out that these exercises were of importance to the Founder and that some of his most senior students kept them in some fashion. I'm still trying to understand their worth and value for myself, but that's just me.

Mike

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Old 03-18-2007, 10:12 AM   #115
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Re: Dan, Mike, and Aikido

Although I state it often enough that folks are bored hearing it-never-the-less it bears repeating.
Ueshiba's defining skill, his core material was, Daito Ryu's methods. To ignore it is intellectually disshonest and a form of intellectual thievery.
Ueshiba's internal skills exhbited during the period when all these incredibly experienced martial artists were initially "ooohing" and "ahing" and deguchi was stumped were... Daito ryu's Aiki-no jutsu- the art of Aiki.

Regardless of whether or not he added other things later it remains that his skills on display at that time were nothing else but Daito ryu. Odd that his contemporaries; Sagawa and Kodo were each blowing away those who touched them as well. The common source to them all was...Takeda. It also remains interesting that many of Ueshiba's own students-including those who openly stated they didn't even like him- none-the less considered him superior to Ueshiba.

Ueshiba had nothing when he met Takeda. Witnesses reported him actually crying when he felt Takeda's power. This after his "supposed" collection of Koryu training and his Judo training under a shodan.
With Takeda he could do nothing.
Cut to five or six years later when Deguchi and everyone else is flipping out over him.
What changed?

What changed was a great deal of hands-on with a Daito ryu master, and a great deal of training time when Takeda was away. With Ueshiba learning...the Aiki-no-jutsu of the Daito school. Something which is almost never taught openly either.
Now this was before a Omotokyo, before great balls of fire in big gaseous clouds, before rummbling mountains talking to him, and bullets sending out auras of thier trajectory.
All that came came later.
What initially made him the darling of all those budo men who were quite stumped was Takeda's Aiki-no-jutsu. Also worthy of note was that when asked, all saw a natural correlation between what Takeda was doing and what Ueshiba was doing. What? Did they both fart golden clouds together?
Was Sagawa's silver and Kodo's platinum?

Or was it that all these witnesses were simply seeing a common bond. A secret. Taught to these students of Takeda. Of Daito ryu.
They weren't feeling Taiji or bagua or any thing of the CMA internals. Nor were they feeling Ueshiba's later "purported" exercises a a source of his power. They were feeling Daito Ryu's Aiki-no-jutsu.

Disclaimers
Am I saying there is no other way? Of course not!
Am I saying Taiji or Xing-! and Bagua don't have it...no not at all.
Am I stating that the CMA have many shared common internal mechanics? Yes!
Will a deep understanding of Taijij get you "there." Yes.
But will that all look like Aikido or a Japanese based weapon art? Yes if you train it and want it to.
But I am stating that Ueshiba's source was- as he himself claimed openly- Takeda. "Takeda opened my eyes to true budo." It is that simple and everyone keeps trying to complicate the matter. Also after years of pissing off Takeda because he left with the goods, in the end he never really taught anyone how to do it anyway.
Are their other methods? Most assuredly.
But his was Aiki-no jutsu. In-yo ho.
Its also why he looked decidedly Japanese in his execution instead of adopting Chinese style movements and waza in paired form.
Japanese budo was all he knew and did.
The internals almost assuredly originated in China and were filtered through years of Japanese weapon work to arrive as a distinct Japanese flavor.
It was Daito ryu's method taught to Ueshiba
Aiki-no-jutsu to Aiki-do
That gave birth to Ueshiba's vision.
There is no other way to explain Takeda, Sagawa, Kodo and Ueshiba. To look at the them separately is flawed logic. Good research would lead you down a path to common origins.

I said all that to once again explain what folks like Murray, Ron and Mark and others are saying and why many are a bit puzzled. Anyone who understands and can do Aiki-no-jutsu to whatever degree they can do it, can also do Aiki-do. Usually better then most-in-Aikido can do it themselve's, mudansha, yudansha, and shihan alike. Those who didn't know-simply were shocked to feel it.
Why? they didn't know it existed. It's also why they greater community flops around speculating and trying to force fit all kinds of whacko, crazy connections from everywhere else to explain Ueshiba. When Stan finally met those in Daito ryu who know these things, they simply looked at Ueshiba's skills and went "Oh yah. Aiki-no jutsu! What about it? And some, like Sagawa, said "Here, like this..." wham!!
Or maybe he farted a silver cloud.
Dan

Last edited by DH : 03-18-2007 at 10:26 AM.
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Old 03-18-2007, 10:49 AM   #116
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Re: Dan, Mike, and Aikido

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The common source to them all was...Takeda. It also remains interesting that many of Ueshiba's own students-including those who openly stated they didn't even like him- none-the less considered him superior to Ueshiba.

SNIP

What initially made him the darling of all those budo men who were quite stumped was Takeda's Aiki-no-jutsu. Also worthy of note was that when asked, all saw a natural correlation between what Takeda was doing and what Ueshiba was doing.

SNIP

Or was it that all these witnesses were simply seeing a common bond. A secret. Taught to these students of Takeda. Of Daito ryu.
They weren't feeling Taiji or bagua or any thing of the CMA internals. Nor were they feeling Ueshiba's later "purported" exercises a a source of his power. They were feeling Daito Ryu's Aiki-no-jutsu.

Disclaimers
Am I saying there is no other way? Of course not!
Am I saying Taiji or Xing-! and Bagua don't have it...no not at all.
Am I stating that the CMA have many shared common internal mechanics? Yes!
Will a deep understanding of Taijij get you "there." Yes.
But will that all look like Aikido or a Japanese based weapon art? Yes if you train it and want it to.
But I am stating that Ueshiba's source was- as he himself claimed openly- Takeda. "Takeda opened my eyes to true budo." It is that simple and everyone keeps trying to complicate the matter.
Yet there is also evidence to the contrary. That Ueshiba didn't develop these abilities until he became involved in Oomoto Kyo. If this is the case then investigating some of the things he did on a regular basis bears merit. As was covered in that whole Hiden in plain sight thing, maybe he was doing it all the time but nobody (well not many people anyway) noticed. Basically 'yeah shut up old man so I can go practice more waza'. I'm not entirely convinced that what constitutes aikido (or aikido-1 as referred to above) is totally and completely aiki/in-yo ho derived from Daito Ryu and Takeda. I am in agreement with you however that organisationally promoted pyjama-dancing (aikido-2) is not what the Founder did or wanted others to do.

The only way I know of to achieve aikido-1 is via the Ki Soc derived methodology, possibly with a good measure of resistive training thrown in too, I am as yet unable to comment on this as fully as I would like as I am not particularly experienced. I notice that you tend to skip over such exercises in favour of Taiji type exercises. Why? Especially when the founder awarded the highest rank possible to Tohei, the man who devised these methods.

Regards

Mike

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Old 03-18-2007, 11:19 AM   #117
ChrisMoses
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Re: Dan, Mike, and Aikido

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I would definitely recommend anyone look up 'The Rites of Spring' as preserved by Michio Hikitsuchi Sensei. I believe that these exercises probably contain many of the essential methods used by the Founder to develop his internal power, he practiced them daily aparently (Some of these breathing methods and exercises are preserved in Ki Soc exercises, but notably not all of them).
Interesting you bring Hikitsuchi Sensei, after starting to work on solo exercises and having a better idea what to look for internally and how to look, the whole shin kokyu practice takes on a whole new meaning.

Chris Moses
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Old 03-18-2007, 11:28 AM   #118
Ellis Amdur
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Re: Dan, Mike, and Aikido

Essentially, the shift to Misogi exercises had several motivations. First of all, some of the exercises, chanting, for example, allow one to emphasize certain aspects of breath control that Ueshiba was, I believe, particularly interested. SECOND, old wine in new bottles. The DR training in a different vessel. Why? Perhaps political - "see, I'm doing something different." Perhaps religious - the misogi exercises were directly associated with the second leg of his interests, spirituality. (BTW - Tada Hiroshi states that there is a third leg, the mikkyo he learned as a youth, which introduced him both to austerities and to social consciousness).
However, this does beg a question - let us say that one is a star athlete, someone who has given decades of one's life to train every aspect of one's soma to an incredible peak. Once there, one develops a "maintenance" training method that doesn't tear you down, but keeps you there. Is it possible that Ueshiba's shift to the Misogi exercises was his maintenance training - and that such training, alone, could not transmit what he learned from Takeda?

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Old 03-18-2007, 11:43 AM   #119
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Re: Dan, Mike, and Aikido

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Ellis Amdur wrote: View Post
However, this does beg a question - let us say that one is a star athlete, someone who has given decades of one's life to train every aspect of one's soma to an incredible peak. Once there, one develops a "maintenance" training method that doesn't tear you down, but keeps you there. Is it possible that Ueshiba's shift to the Misogi exercises was his maintenance training - and that such training, alone, could not transmit what he learned from Takeda?
If that was the case then it would link in fairly nicely with some of the comments made in this thread:

http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12141

concerning Ki Society derived methodology. I know from my own experiences that sometimes it can be difficult (for me at least) to understand what exactly it is I'm supposed to be feeling when performing a certain exercise. You need help from an instructor who can explain and describe these things, which is why intellectually dismantling their efficacy is easy to do on paper but not in practice (I've seen them done too often and by too many people to discount the methods).

But we still really don't know if that is not how Takeda himself might have taught these things or a method similar to it, i.e. an expectation that they need to steal the technique through regular practice of a form or forms which require the 'secret' to be known in order to be correctly practiced. It would also explain why some of Takeda's own students did not 'get it' in just the same way that some of Ueshiba's students also didn't.

Regards

Mike Haft

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Old 03-18-2007, 11:56 AM   #120
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Re: Dan, Mike, and Aikido

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Christian Moses wrote: View Post
Interesting you bring Hikitsuchi Sensei, after starting to work on solo exercises and having a better idea what to look for internally and how to look, the whole shin kokyu practice takes on a whole new meaning.
I'm afraid that I don't really know too much about Hikitsuchi Sensei, I only think it worth mentioning him in this discussion because he seemed to be held in high esteem by O Sensei and because I've heard interesting stories, so I reason that he must have something worth looking at.

A few people have asked me about the Rites of Spring via PMs. They can be found in #52 of Aikido Today magazine.

Mike

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Old 03-18-2007, 04:33 PM   #121
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Re: Dan, Mike, and Aikido

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Yet there is also evidence to the contrary. That Ueshiba didn't develop these abilities until he became involved in Omoto Kyo.
That's simply not true.
Cite______________________________________
What is key here is that his skills were in evidence WHEN he was doing nothing but DR. There are many interviews to support that. It is worth differentiating that single point.
Why? Because anyone who gets this or has train in other arts with internals will continue to grow incrementally, sometimes in leaps from one level to another. At a certain point you just grasp things you couldn't figure out. It is this that accounts for his noted increase later. But the point being it happens WITHOUT ANY OTHER ADD-ONS. Just sticking to the method- will cause great changes over time.
Unfortunately with Ueshiba you have these true believers who misunderstood his religious practices and falsely attributed his physical growth with a sort of physical manifestation of those beliefs. For them, for some reason they just could not correlate his or accept his Aiki-no-jujutsu skills with his vision. For them it just had to be something different. It had to come from somewhere else.
All to better support the legend I guess.

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The only way I know of to achieve aikido-1 is via the Ki Soc derived methodology, possibly with a good measure of resistive training thrown in too, I am as yet unable to comment on this as fully as I would like as I am not particularly experienced. I notice that you tend to skip over such exercises in favour of Taiji type exercises. Why? Especially when the founder awarded the highest rank possible to Tohei, the man who devised these methods.

Regards

Mike
You only know what you know. But the question at hand is not what you know but what your willing to consider.

Taiji exercises? You must be confusing me with someone else. I don't know taiji. And the reason I skip over those Ki exercises is that I didn't need them. There are other ways to train that I found to be far more beneficial. Resulting in power and control in a shorter time frame. Then on to others that take far more time.
In the end the Daito ryu method, once you get past, and dump the wrist grabs, works rather well.

If I may, why are talking to me?
Have you decided that I -do- have something to say or contribute about Aikido after all? Or did my natural charm and wit win you over?

Cheers
Dan
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Old 03-18-2007, 04:39 PM   #122
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Re: Dan, Mike, and Aikido

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Mike Haft wrote: View Post
But we still really don't know if that is not how Takeda himself might have taught these things or a method similar to it, i.e. an expectation that they need to steal the technique through regular practice of a form or forms which require the 'secret' to be known in order to be correctly practiced. It would also explain why some of Takeda's own students did not 'get it' in just the same way that some of Ueshiba's students also didn't.

Regards
Mike Haft
Perhaps that is better written like this

But those who never learned these things still really don't know [/i]what Takeda, Sagawa or Kodo did or what Aiki-no-jutsu or In-yo ho is and if and how they may have taught, and if that is[/i] how Takeda himself might have taught these things or a method similar to it, i.e. an expectation that they need to steal the technique through regular practice of a form or forms which require the 'secret' to be known in order to be correctly practiced. It would also explain why some of Takeda's own students did not 'get it' in just the same way that some of Ueshiba's students also didn't.

That seems a bit more accurate and reasonable to me
Dan
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Old 03-18-2007, 05:22 PM   #123
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Re: Dan, Mike, and Aikido

Thought it mught prove interesting
Is Osensei really the father of modern Aikido?

full article here
http://www.aikidojournal.com/?id=3057

...... I want to make my point perfectly clear. What I mean to say is that Morihei Ueshiba was NOT the main figure at the Hombu Dojo who taught on a day-to-day basis. O-Sensei was there at unpredictible intervals and often his instruction centered on philosophical subjects. Tohei and Kisshomaru Ueshiba are the persons most responsible for the technical content and development of aikido within the Aikikai Hombu system. As before the war, the uchideshi of later years would teach outside the Hombu Dojo in clubs and universities after only a relatively short period of apprenticeship. Also, this period was characterized by "dan inflation," many of these young teachers being promoted at the rate of one dan per year. In a number of cases, they also "skipped" ranks. But that is the subject of another article!

What does all of this mean? It means that the common view of the spread of aikido following the war taking place under the direct tutelage of the founder is fundamentally in error. Tohei and the present Doshu deserve the lion's share of the credit, not the founder. It means further that O-Sensei Morihei Ueshiba was not seriously involved in the instruction or administration of aikido in the postwar years. He was already long retired and very focused on his personal training, spiritual development, travel and social activities. Also, it should be noted that, despite his stereotyped image as a gentle, kind old man, O-Sensei was also the possessor of piercing eyes and a heroic temper. His presence was not always sought at the Hombu Dojo due to his critical comments and frequent outbursts....


A sharp guy might be drawn down several divergent paths just from these two paragraphs alone.

As Mike and I have said many. many times.
Who is doing Kissomaru's Waza
Why did Tohei leave?
Who is -really- doing Ueshiba's Aikido?
Cheers
Dan

Last edited by DH : 03-18-2007 at 05:32 PM.
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Old 03-18-2007, 05:23 PM   #124
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Re: Dan, Mike, and Aikido

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Dan Harden wrote: View Post
[snip]

You only know what you know. But the question at hand is not what you know but what your willing to consider.

[snip]
Well spoken.
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Old 03-18-2007, 07:03 PM   #125
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Re: Dan, Mike, and Aikido

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Well spoken.
Not especially. If I wasn't considering these things I wouldn't be a part of this discussion.

Mike

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