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Old 03-14-2007, 10:23 AM   #51
kironin
 
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Re: Dan, Mike, and Aikido

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Jo Adell wrote: View Post
And if one is going to use these tai chi principles, I really think they should describe their usefulness in how they apply to Aikido technique, not to simply be able to emulate O'Sensei's Performances. If he thought being Unpushable was essential to aikido, he would have taught it to Somebody, doncha think?
He did. for example to Koichi Tohei Sensei who then taught it to quite a lot of people in his own way. Many of whom later due to history did not pass it on.

and I say that from personal experience as an Iaido teacher. I have had iaido students from many styles of aikido, because Iaido is another thing outside of aikido politics. It's made me appreciate the focus on mind and body coordination even when I didn't appreciate the lack vigorous practice sometimes. I am sneaking in internal stuff all the time from Tohei Sensei and elsewhere, because it's universal in having effective technique. Whether it bleeds back into their aikido I don't know.

-Craig

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Old 03-14-2007, 10:27 AM   #52
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Re: Dan, Mike, and Aikido

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Jeremy Hulley wrote: View Post
But the ability to shift from brick wall to instant softness and back give the ability to take balance or avoid having balance taken. It all fits if you can see it...
yes

excellent point!

exactly.

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Old 03-14-2007, 10:43 AM   #53
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Re: "Non-Aikido Martial Traditions" Forum

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Mark Murray wrote: View Post
Well, I certainly agree with all that. But, I was under the impression that Ellis isn't doing aikido currently. And that was one complaint -- that certain people weren't in aikido. So, to discount that in some yet not discount it in others seemed hypocritical to me. Course, I could be wrong.

Mark
Actually Ellis still does Aikido if you count the seminars he has done at various aikido schools, the active relationships he has with various senior aikido teachers, the Aikido instructional DVD he put out, the aikido classes he taught at the Aiki Expo. I have participated in Aikido classes taught by him. It was quite obvious that he had a great deal of experience in aikido waza and he had something interesting things to say, show, etc. I may not agree of everything he says but he doesn't ask you to and what he shows provides interesting productive IMO lines of thought and practice.

One of senior students who had a injury that was turning out to be chronic was able to continue because of stuff he adapted from Ellis's DVD in the discussion of ukemi.

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Old 03-14-2007, 06:57 PM   #54
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Re: Dan, Mike, and Aikido

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Tim Mailloux wrote: View Post
That would be the one

I doubt he will chime in, but you never know. I am just really PO's that I wasn't there to watch. Tom has been wuppin my but for years and I would have loved to watch him get stuffed by Dan.

I just talked to Stan B. and heard it was pretty interesting!

Tim
Tom Was fun. I'll let him tell you guys about it. I did all the blah blahs… The training was fun. Tom had a good body sense and I felt he got a good basic feel for both absorbing, weight transfer and actively moving under continual stress load. Pretty good for one night. On top of all that he’s Special forces so he’s aready A-1 in my book. I did the typical let them try to throw me using any Aikido waza or blend or irimi. Had some fun with Nikkyo and Sankyo and particualty kotegaeshi They both came along nicely so we played a bit on the ground and what not.

I tell ya the conversation after was most interesting. They both were looking at a model Of how this will change their aikido. Tom was chewing things over about how to have it effect his dojo, considering its effect on his personal aikido. There was a logic string to the discussion (got to love the military mindset) Him thinking things through, to training himself before his students, or to training with them, what effects, what’s more efficient for transmission. His mind was whirling and planning in such a way and with such intriguing questions that brought in single individuals-to-dojo to multiple ramifications of what this Aiki does to Aikido. He was a real thinker. I was impressed.
I just talked with Stan and they’re coming back in a couple of weeks so I’ll let you know.

In the greater topic of the thread this is just another example of Aikidoka making their personal choices of what to do. Its really not about me. As Ron so aptly quoted me- I care more about what you guys are going to do on your own turf and in your own personal expression. Each of you becoming somebody substantial to reckon with- though your personal expression of your Aikido.
Should be an interesting couple of years
Cheers
Dan

Last edited by DH : 03-14-2007 at 07:06 PM.
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Old 03-14-2007, 07:32 PM   #55
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Re: Dan, Mike, and Aikido

Everyone I've met in Aikido- just like everywhere else-is up to the challenge. Its just up to all of us to do the work. For some reason-I don't know why-I have a dojo lately full of currently practicing AIkido folks -several of whom are teachers-doing just that.

I suggest if you have a problem with them talking about both their Aikido and their training, here, on this forum, just tell them so. I'm sure they would like to hear your thoughts. I'll continue to talk to them about the Aiki-do we did just last night for 5 hours.
I thank you for once again sharing your wonderful, uplifting, and swell contributions. And thank you ever so much for your kind words.
Good luck in your training
Dan
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Old 03-14-2007, 07:41 PM   #56
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Re: Dan, Mike, and Aikido

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Mike Haft wrote:
I only question why you need to come here as a non-aikido person and tell us about it all and imply that we're not up to the challenge.

I wonder what kind of ego it takes to do that and I wonder whether it is someone I would want to listen to? I'm sure I risk missing interesting insights but.... respectfully, can you understand this point of view?
IIRC, Dan IS doing aikido.... just not what many here would define as their "aikido" or their perception of "aikido".

For someone who has yet to touch hands with Dan, Mike or Rob (one days guys, in this lifetime), I understand perfectly where they are coming from. I have tested my aikido against taiji, karate, jujitsu, judo, you name it.... and failed miserably. I had to do it the hard way and go back to the drawing board, working from first principles, starting right back at the basics, and even beyond the basics to arrive at where I am, where I can start to grasp the gist of what Dan and Mike are really saying and how it is particularly relevant to MY aiki training. IOW, I arrived at this (level of) understanding quite independently of knowing Dan or Mike.

Whilst I don't claim to be able to fully understand, know or even do what Dan and Mike (or even Rob) are saying to whatever level of competency, I do know that is where I want to take my aikido to the next level.

If you have no desire to accept what Dan or Mike are saying, then tune out. But for the rest of us that do... they are an important part of our own learning and development process.

"Teachers" come in many forms... they don't all have to be dressed in the appropriate attire or have the charisma and charm of Tony Robbins. That said, I don't believe that either Dan or Mike are "teaching" anything, much less proselytizing. They're simply sharing and exchanging information... or debating the validity of that information... as we all are.

On a metaphorical level, I see what they are doing as creating aiki in that they are playing uke... it's what you do with that "gift" that's important....

Ignatius
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Old 03-14-2007, 08:24 PM   #57
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Re: Dan, Mike, and Aikido

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Dan Harden wrote: View Post
I tell ya the conversation after was most interesting. They both were looking at a model Of how this will change their aikido. Tom was chewing things over about how to have it effect his dojo, considering its effect on his personal aikido. There was a logic string to the discussion (got to love the military mindset) Him thinking things through, to training himself before his students, or to training with them, what effects, what’s more efficient for transmission. His mind was whirling and planning in such a way and with such intriguing questions that brought in single individuals-to-dojo to multiple ramifications of what this Aiki does to Aikido. He was a real thinker. I was impressed.
I just talked with Stan and they’re coming back in a couple of weeks so I’ll let you know.
Well, now we have 4 of us from the same aikido lineage training with you. We all are equally impressed with your skills, method of teaching, and general character. I'm stoked to be "in the mix" with Tim, Stan, and Tom (not sure if you met Eric yet). I predict that good things will come out of this experience and I'm looking forward to the future for "my" aikido.

Best,

Mark
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Old 03-15-2007, 08:18 AM   #58
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Re: Dan, Mike, and Aikido

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Mike Haft wrote: View Post
Many of the standard training exercise used by Koichi Tohei are aimed at developing the same things as CMA internal practices such as Tai Chi. Much of what Mark Murray listed in his rather trollish post is done in ki society circles although with different emphasis.
Thanks for your response.

If I'm understanding you correctly (as well as the terminology others are using), are these exercises primarily aimed at creating pathways within yourself to deal with incoming forces? Do you also train your body's structure to store and release power? Can you give any specifics on the drills (solo or paired, etc.) that you do (I'm not super familiar with Tohei's drills other than what others have mentioned on boards like these) to train these things within yourself? What kinds of benchmarks for success or failure do you use?

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Mike Haft wrote: View Post
As an example I recall Ellis Amdur writing something around here about Tomiki having a bunch of young judoka trying to move his arm and not being able to. He made note that it was not the Tohei style 'unbendable arm' exercise and described unbendable arm (but inaccurately). It was in fact exactly what you should be doing if you do unbendable arm. only beginners let their elbow remain unmoved while their arm wobbles all over the place. If you are using weight underside these things do not happen. If you compare it to such CMA terms such us 6 directional pushing (I forget the exact terminology) then it is the same exercise entirely. at the higher levels of the test for unbendable arm the arm is moved at different angles and the only way to pass these tests is to create some of those internal pathways much discussed by Mike et al.
Out of curiousity, what specifically are you doing (to yourself or the other person) to use/maintain 'weight underside'? Is it strictly a matter of pathways? From your perspective, how are they directed/maintained in accordance with your structure?

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Mike Haft wrote: View Post
Koichi Tohei often said "No unbendable arm, no aikido". There's a reason he is ranked 10th Dan, some of that is politics and some of it is ability. There are many many other exercises like this. Part of the problems I have with all this is that I figured out long ago that telling people they needed to do things like this to do aikido properly was just trolling. I'd rather politely listen to them and learn from them even if they don't wish to do things the way I do. After all who am I to be teaching the world, I'm no great master.
Understood, I also happen to most definitely not be a great master, which is why I like to ask questions! If you had to pick the key exercises that train the internal skills that you feel are important, which would those be and why?

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Mike Haft wrote: View Post
As you asked, here's something for you to practice and think about.

Fight or flight responses. All predatory animals respond to fight stimulai by clenching the rectum and digging their claws in. If you're brave enough try an experiment at home with the cat. Sit it on your lap and lift its tail up. Get your friend to open the door and let a dog in, watch the cat's backside as it digs it's claws into your lap. Next time your practicing some of the internal stuff discussed here (if you do so) ask yourself if you're clenching your backside, if you are you aren't relaxed properly and you'll have difficulties acheiving some of what has been discussed. It's kinda crude to describe it like that but it's a really simple thing you can ask yourself during training in order to assess whether you are tense or not (sometimes it's hard to tell). The other really hard thing to learn is to use weight underside, but I've got work to do now and have wasted my time on the internet for too long this lunch break already. Maybe some other time I'll talk about it.
Cool. Do you practice tensing and untensing your buttocks as a separate drill (I think Ravishing Rick Rude used to do that in the ring in the 80's) or combine it with others? When you're willfully releasing certain areas in that region, are there others that you're willfully activating (the back, the legs, etc)? If so, how?

Thanks in advance for your responses. I also want to repeat a HUGE thank you to EVERYONE that's contributing their thoughts/experiences. It's been a very lively and informative discussion to be privvy to, but again, as a very small fry in this happy meal, I'm gonna bow back out and return to lurkdom.
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Old 03-15-2007, 08:45 AM   #59
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Re: Dan, Mike, and Aikido

Mike Haft wrote: "As an example I recall Ellis Amdur writing something around here about Tomiki having a bunch of young judoka trying to move his arm and not being able to. He made note that it was not the Tohei style 'unbendable arm' exercise and described unbendable arm (but inaccurately)." It was Tomiki - not Tohei. The real issue was that the people were free to do ANYTHING to the arm, and couldn't. And - he then threw them - judoka - with just a subtle movement of the wrist.
Best

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Old 03-15-2007, 09:03 AM   #60
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Re: Dan, Mike, and Aikido

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Budd Yuhasz wrote: View Post
If I'm understanding you correctly (as well as the terminology others are using), are these exercises primarily aimed at creating pathways within yourself to deal with incoming forces? Do you also train your body's structure to store and release power? Can you give any specifics on the drills (solo or paired, etc.) that you do (I'm not super familiar with Tohei's drills other than what others have mentioned on boards like these) to train these things within yourself? What kinds of benchmarks for success or failure do you use?
Ki development is assessed in a variety of ways. With regards to pathways, these things happen anyway but are not specfically trained for, described or aimed for in detail, but you develop a lot of this stuff along the way regardless. In my experience no, we don't specifically try to store and release energy with the body in the manner often described but it often happens anyway. We tend to focus more on using the other guys energy than explosive release of our own power, more efficient and more in line with what aikido is all about. In other words evasive body movements rather than standing there like a muppet and letting people hit you to prove that you can absorb the shock of it by routing it to the ground. If an attack is coming don't be there is usually the best option. Never did see the value in hitting myself with an iron bar just to prove a point.

As to the rest your best bet it to read one of Tohei's books. IMHO Chinese style internal arts are very good, but they are out of step with aikido because they do not aim to train fudoshin in the same way. I think that fudoshin is probably the most important aspect of ki-aikido, again, IMHO. Like I said, similar to the Chinese stuff but also slightly different in aim and focus.

Back to making pathways for a minute, I recall people over on aikido-l telling a story of the late George Simcox Sensei sitting on a wheelie chair (typical office type chair) and having people push on his shoulders only to discover he didn't move or slide across the floor but stayed rooted to the spot. Like I said, plenty of this stuff been happening in aikido for decades if you look for it. Simcox Sensei is sdaly missed. I think the last time I wrote anything to him over on aikido-l I was less than polite, I can't even recall why now, I just hope I've lived and learned since then. I wish he was still here to talk about these things.

Quote:
Budd Yuhasz wrote: View Post
Out of curiousity, what specifically are you doing (to yourself or the other person) to use/maintain 'weight underside'? Is it strictly a matter of pathways? From your perspective, how are they directed/maintained in accordance with your structure?
I find that excruciatingly difficult to explain, you kinda have to feel it to know it. It involves relaxing your weight downwards whilst maintaining an upright and strong posture. It's very difficult to get your head around it at first. I think that's mostly because we're so used to carrying our own weight around from the time we learned to walk that we don't really appreciate how to use it to our advantage. I like to try getting people to do say.. kotegaeshi, slowly but with someone elses hands on their shoulders applying all their weight stright downwards. It gives you an appreciation of how weight is transferred through your own body when you apply techniques. It's a start, nothing more

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Budd Yuhasz wrote: View Post
Understood, I also happen to most definitely not be a great master, which is why I like to ask questions! If you had to pick the key exercises that train the internal skills that you feel are important, which would those be and why?
All of them, over and over again because they're all about the same thing, just from different perspectives. Sorry, lousy answer but I can't think of one in particular, though I am becoming more and more fond of the rowing exercise lately for some reason, but that may just be a phase I'm going through.

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Budd Yuhasz wrote: View Post
Cool. Do you practice tensing and untensing your buttocks as a separate drill (I think Ravishing Rick Rude used to do that in the ring in the 80's) or combine it with others? When you're willfully releasing certain areas in that region, are there others that you're willfully activating (the back, the legs, etc)? If so, how?
LOL. Nope It's not a training exercise but I've discovered that tension has a way of sneaking up on you, just checking to see if you've clenched those muscles is a good way to check to see if it has or not. It's definitely not a training exercise of any sort. Lol, how embarassing That's not what I meant.

Anyway, other computer is done with the simulation now so back to the grind.

Regards

Mike

"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."
-Martin Luther King Jr
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Old 03-15-2007, 09:09 AM   #61
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Re: Dan, Mike, and Aikido

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Ellis Amdur wrote: View Post
Mike Haft wrote: "As an example I recall Ellis Amdur writing something around here about Tomiki having a bunch of young judoka trying to move his arm and not being able to. He made note that it was not the Tohei style 'unbendable arm' exercise and described unbendable arm (but inaccurately)." It was Tomiki - not Tohei. The real issue was that the people were free to do ANYTHING to the arm, and couldn't. And - he then threw them - judoka - with just a subtle movement of the wrist.
Best
Thanks for that. As I was saying, the Tohei unbendable arm exercise when done correctly should be the same as the example you gave of Tomiki doing it. Not only should the elbow be unbendable, but the wrist and the fingers and the arm should be immovable too, in any direction. The owner of the arm however should be able to move it at will in spite of what is being done to it. So, pretty much the same as the Tomiki story IMO.

Apologies for any confusion.

Regards

Mike

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Old 03-15-2007, 09:37 AM   #62
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Re: Dan, Mike, and Aikido

I have moved many posts from this thread to the "Why are you here on his forum?" thread:

http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11423

-- Jun

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Old 03-15-2007, 11:30 AM   #63
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Re: "Non-Aikido Martial Traditions" Forum

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Mark Murray wrote: View Post
Uh huh. Not in my experience. But hey, here's a list of things to try and you let us know if you can do them (I've modified the list from someone else's posting elsewhere)

Stand relaxed with feet side by side about shoulder width apart and do not use any waza, your hands, or any offensive techniques and remain that way while .....

1. Have someone push your chest with one hand in an attempt to push you over. Really push.
2. Then two hands as hard as he can. We're talking total 100% full force of whole body pushing you.
3. Then have him pile drive into you.
4. Then even casually.. increasing to severely- pull you and push you around while you stand there without moving your feet. Let them have your wrist and let them pull you for all their worth.
5. Place your hand on his chest. Without moving your shoulders or body in any discernable way, send them 3-6' with your hand.

Mark
Parlor tricks. These have little to nothing to do with martial skill. Remember, you fight as you train, and if you train to stand around while somebody takes whacks at you, guess what will happen...
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Old 03-15-2007, 12:03 PM   #64
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Re: "Non-Aikido Martial Traditions" Forum

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Avery Jenkins wrote: View Post
Parlor tricks. These have little to nothing to do with martial skill. Remember, you fight as you train, and if you train to stand around while somebody takes whacks at you, guess what will happen...
Hmmm ... well, if you're training to fight, yeah, in certain circumstances, I guess I can agree with your post. I certainly wouldn't want to just stand there empty handed while someone tries to use a baseball bat to hit a home run using my head as a baseball.

However, if this is about fights, then heck, why not just pull out my trusty Sig, point it between the person's eyes and stop them in their tracks? Heck, if it's about fights, I can stand there all day long and let my buddy whump on them. Ooooh, wait, if it's about fights, I can practice my ninjer skills and throw knives and shuriken at them and not have to move. If it's about fights, I can have my 125 pound wolf at my side and then I really wouldn't have to move.

If you want to talk about fighting, that's fine. I can do that. But, really, sarcasm aside, I was talking about base training skills. Even if you are applying things to fighting, you don't just jump into the UFC ring with a Gracie and expect to hold your own. There are methods used. And if you've been using internal skill methods all along, for years, then you should have some measure of skill, right? That was what I was getting at. If you can do those things, hey, that's great.

As to martial skill? Well, I guess we disagree there, too. I think they add to training. But, hey, it's all IMO.

Mark
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Old 03-15-2007, 01:01 PM   #65
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Re: "Non-Aikido Martial Traditions" Forum

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Avery Jenkins wrote: View Post
Parlor tricks. These have little to nothing to do with martial skill. Remember, you fight as you train, and if you train to stand around while somebody takes whacks at you, guess what will happen...
What if the same guy can do the same things while in motion? What about if they can do the same thing in the ring? What if they feel unmoveable when preforming a technique and all of that energy is redirected into you?

Isn't that when it becomes interesting?
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Old 03-15-2007, 01:24 PM   #66
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Re: Dan, Mike, and Aikido

Or more to the point, the ability to properly hit a speed bag is a parlor trick. You fight as you train, and if you train to rhythmically hit an air filled bag over and over again while somebody takes a whack at you, guess what will happen...

Josh Reyer

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Th'assay so harde, so sharpe the conquerynge...
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Old 03-15-2007, 01:34 PM   #67
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Re: "Non-Aikido Martial Traditions" Forum

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Hunter Lonsberry wrote: View Post
What if the same guy can do the same things while in motion? What about if they can do the same thing in the ring? What if they feel unmoveable when preforming a technique and all of that energy is redirected into you?

Isn't that when it becomes interesting?
Yeah, now you're talking!
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Old 03-15-2007, 01:40 PM   #68
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Re: "Non-Aikido Martial Traditions" Forum

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Yeah, now you're talking!
Well, you have to crawl before you walk. The static tests are only the beginning. No one was ever claiming they were the "end all be all".

Mark
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Old 03-15-2007, 05:38 PM   #69
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Re: "Non-Aikido Martial Traditions" Forum

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Avery Jenkins wrote: View Post
Yeah, now you're talking!
Avery
Just to be clear those were my examples. From the very first night, when folks are juuust begining to learn, I have them start to feel it and do some small things in motion.
I understand the confusion. Rest assured these skills are free form and fluid in motion; whether expressed in Aiki-do Aikijujutsu or freetslye fighting. Static dills are for training only. Its like hitting a bag or rolling with a bag. In one way its training to change your body, in another just to test what your training. The rest is in motion.
Usually the first time I meet folks I have them try to throw us or lock us anyway they wish. Its not for a "look at me!" exibition- which are really bothersome and a pain- they are to show fellows that your not leading them-on into some dumb "ki" demonstration that is uselss in a fight.
My goals are to get folks doing these things then and there and give them ways to start to practice.
As for the practical uses usually me or one of my guys will start hitting a heavy bag or tossing follks. If it is AIkido folks-maybe showing various free relaxed movements and lock resistance. In MMA we do other things. One stellar by-product is heavy hands and an ability to resist takedowns. Realize that much of the training inlvoves exercises as well. THink of it like core training.
There is No corellation to core training- but it helps to think of it like that. Its like building the body... on the inside.
And it is the cornerstone of how Aiki is made. In-yo ho
Too many folks think of leading a push in a movement and call it aiki.
Aiki is first made in us
Cheers
Dan

Last edited by DH : 03-15-2007 at 05:47 PM.
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Old 03-15-2007, 06:17 PM   #70
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Re: "Non-Aikido Martial Traditions" Forum

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Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Realize that much of the training inlvoves exercises as well. THink of it like core training.
There is No corellation to core training- but it helps to think of it like that. Its like building the body... on the inside.
And it is the cornerstone of how Aiki is made. In-yo ho
Too many folks think of leading a push in a movement and call it aiki.
Aiki is first made in us
Cheers
Dan
Hi Dan,
I liked your description... I realize that much of this stuff has to be shown and felt but I'd be interested to hear about the exercises you do to develop the body structure (to the extent that you can explain it verbally). My own experience with what I think you are talking about is actually via Systema. I did have some very brief instruction from Mike but only enough to leave me hungry for more.
- George

George S. Ledyard
Aikido Eastside
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Old 03-16-2007, 09:29 AM   #71
DH
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Re: Dan, Mike, and Aikido

Hi George
It has been my experience that writing and video....don't work. Even hands-on is often overwhelming. That said the only way I can share this stuff is hands on. Its small changes, over time. Even with guys now coming every month or so-the're sill doing things only in pieces. As you do things you realize as you were sustaining this or that-you left out this other piece. While stretching here- your weren't winding there. Or while moving you suddenly realize you were all in your thighs and forgot your spine. The funny part is the mental focus and the buzz, gives out before the body does. The one benefit I can guaranty- is that if folks do the work -they will change. Period.
As Murray and Ron have stated about my guys- "They all can do it to a degree and explain it- hands on." On recent visitor said it best at dinner. "It isn't you, Dan that gives me hope. Its your 28 yr old guy who got me to be able to do things I can't believe, your one year student, your dojo full of folks who can do.. We've all met or felt some incredible expert here or there-with skills we know we'll never achived. Your students, not you, made it real for me." I thought that was pretty cool. For the first time (though my guys trounced me quickly) I felt like a teacher.

So teaching on the net just doesn't work. But at least -as many know after asking for years- for the first time I'm willing to share. It was a certain mutual friend (a teacher himself) who made change my mind about sharing with people. I still haven't decided whether or not to thank him or kick him for that. I know I'm not up to the job-I suck at teaching, and I'm a nobody so I have to figure out how to grow into the job. As we all know at this age, it just means more screw ups, false starts and frustrations for moi....
I think it may be fitting that it is Aiki folks who are searching this out. And I think I am enjoying that so far. Its still new though. Lets see if I can avoid it screwing up my own goals.
Cheers
Dan

Last edited by DH : 03-16-2007 at 09:43 AM.
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Old 03-16-2007, 11:09 AM   #72
George S. Ledyard
 
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Re: Dan, Mike, and Aikido

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Hi George
It has been my experience that writing and video....don't work. Even hands-on is often overwhelming. That said the only way I can share this stuff is hands on. Its small changes, over time. Even with guys now coming every month or so-the're sill doing things only in pieces. As you do things you realize as you were sustaining this or that-you left out this other piece. While stretching here- your weren't winding there. Or while moving you suddenly realize you were all in your thighs and forgot your spine. The funny part is the mental focus and the buzz, gives out before the body does. The one benefit I can guaranty- is that if folks do the work -they will change. Period.
As Murray and Ron have stated about my guys- "They all can do it to a degree and explain it- hands on." On recent visitor said it best at dinner. "It isn't you, Dan that gives me hope. Its your 28 yr old guy who got me to be able to do things I can't believe, your one year student, your dojo full of folks who can do.. We've all met or felt some incredible expert here or there-with skills we know we'll never achived. Your students, not you, made it real for me." I thought that was pretty cool. For the first time (though my guys trounced me quickly) I felt like a teacher.

So teaching on the net just doesn't work. But at least -as many know after asking for years- for the first time I'm willing to share. It was a certain mutual friend (a teacher himself) who made change my mind about sharing with people. I still haven't decided whether or not to thank him or kick him for that. I know I'm not up to the job-I suck at teaching, and I'm a nobody so I have to figure out how to grow into the job. As we all know at this age, it just means more screw ups, false starts and frustrations for moi....
I think it may be fitting that it is Aiki folks who are searching this out. And I think I am enjoying that so far. Its still new though. Lets see if I can avoid it screwing up my own goals.
Cheers
Dan
I get it... Kaizen is going to try to get us together when you are out here. He wants to see how you guys train this stuff and compare it to what they do in Systema. I'd definitely be interested as well. Don't some too son as I just had hernia surgery Friday and am a bit of a gimp at the moment. A few weeks and I should be good. Ikeda Sensei's here this weekend and for the first time since 1989 when I opened I will sit out a seminar I hosted... oh well. Talk to you soon.
- George

George S. Ledyard
Aikido Eastside
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Aikido Eastside
AikidoDvds.Com
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Old 03-16-2007, 01:25 PM   #73
DH
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Re: Dan, Mike, and Aikido

Quote:
George S. Ledyard wrote: View Post
... Ikeda Sensei's here this weekend and for the first time since 1989 when I opened I will sit out a seminar I hosted... oh well. Talk to you soon.
- George
Now ...that.... would be really interesting and fun. Touching hands and playing with him with no one else in the room to bother us but you!
Dan
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Old 03-16-2007, 03:59 PM   #74
DH
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Re: Dan, Mike, and Aikido

I posted this in the External VS internal thread But thought better of it. I thnk it addresses Gerges comments...and my confusion over many conflicting statements given by those in AIkido.

Where do you find your answers if its not OK to train with Mike, rob or or me?
Where is the interal skills in Aikido's past? Where does the past lead?
You had a plethora of men surrounding Ueshiba, sitting there under his direct tutelage and many lectures. Yet oddly enough, probably his two best; Tohei and Shioda, went elsewhere for their own enlightenment. With those that remained clearly stating they did not understand him. What remains of Ueshiba is his pointed to two places. Daito ryu and esoteric Shinto practices.

On Aikiweb we read these arguments put forth by many in Aikido that only Aikidoka can really speak to Aikido issues. People are being told by teachers to look to Aikido teachers for their answers. Yet if we research and read even here we see:
1. Tohei pointing and even going elsewhere and then?
He left and started his own art.
2. Shioda pointing and going elsewhere and then?
He left and started his own art.
3. Ueshiba pointing and stating clearly that Takeda opened his eyes to true Budo. Then?
Ueshiba pointing and training esoteric Shinto and solo training- and then?
HE- left and started his own art.
Were one to follow the logic one would jump ship, find internal skills and then?
Leave and start their own art.

I'm still ruminating over George and Dennis's many comments about only Aikidoka being able to fix/work-on/adjust/modify or alter Aikido. Then being told to look back to the masters in Aikido. Many of whom are pointing everywhere else BUT Aikido. All while the student is being told …they…of course must not look anywhere else.
Where do they go to get a straight answer?
Now I read where some teachers are openly stating "Go train and steal it. And bring it back to alter/fix/adjust that.... which they- by their own admonitions state doesn't need to be fixed to begin with."
All while I read where Ikeda is now looking elswhere -like to Ushiro- for internal coaching
And now....just recently I read where some, George included, are stating it finally is ok to go get and bring back.
I think that's a pretty fair take on many of the positions written here. So, just who, is stating Aikidoka should do... what?
And what harm is there in a student openly admitting theyt went elsewhere?
Cheers
Dan
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Old 03-16-2007, 05:08 PM   #75
Cady Goldfield
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Re: Dan, Mike, and Aikido

Dan, please check PM. Thx
Sorry all, it's the only way I can get through, sometimes.
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