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Old 10-01-2004, 08:11 PM   #26
MaryKaye
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Re: Kotegaishi weakness?

I think that within any style or association you can talk in a shorthand that outsiders will find relatively opaque; but I'm not convinced there is as much difference in the concepts as there is in the vocabulary. A couple of times at Aikikai seminars I've had the pleasing experience of hearing a completely unfamiliar and baffling explanation, and then trying the demonstrated technique and having it click into place as an expression of something I do know.

The people who have thrown me with kotagaeshi, though, have made a clear difference from koteoroshi--they don't let me fall backwards out of the throw, but force me to go forwards over my arm. (I need to learn how to do that properly before someone breaks my wrist.)

One way to learn the unbalancing form of these throws would be to deliberately hold uke's forearm rather than his wrist. Now the wrist control is out of the question, but the unbalancing can still work. Knowing how to do this gives you a fallback if you miss uke's wrist--especially a problem for me if there's a big weapon being waved around.

I used to think koteoroshi was purely an unbalancing throw--that we'd softened it to the point of losing the wrist control completely--but I expressed this view to one of our yudansha, and got the usual sort of learning experience.

Mary Kaye
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Old 10-01-2004, 11:20 PM   #27
MikeE
 
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Re: Kotegaishi weakness?

To add to my earlier stuff....

I teach both kote gaeshi and kote oroshi as part of the same. If someone locks their wrist one way they are susceptible to the other and vice versa.

Caveat 1: It is always best to have uke's center... then the rest just happens.

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Old 10-02-2004, 12:12 AM   #28
kironin
 
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Re: Kotegaishi weakness?

Quote:
Michael Ellefson wrote:
To add to my earlier stuff....
I teach both kote gaeshi and kote oroshi as part of the same. If someone locks their wrist one way they are susceptible to the other and vice versa.
I think the best in both cases have the slack out and provide a good lead that drops at the end (if you look at old films of a young Tohei performing kotegaeshi you clearly see the twisting locks up the arm by taking the slack out of the forearm and the finish of the throw is a drop). When I have taken ukemi for someone who knows really what they are doing with kotegaeshi it feels quite natural to follow their lead and quite safe to my wrist because they let me know where to go if I am willing to listen. Don't listen and resist and it's quite rough on the body.

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Old 10-02-2004, 11:43 AM   #29
darin
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Re: Kotegaishi weakness?

When you do irimi senkai turn your body into uke's elbow. If you do it right you will cause enough pain to relax the wrist. Also when uke's balance is broken (he only has one foot on the ground) quickly turn back and apply the throw. Its almost impossible for anyone to resist kotegaeshi if they are off balance. Also doing it this way makes it very difficult for uke to strike you when you apply the throw.

Another method, if uke has a clenched fist try rolling his fist towards him. This also helps when uke doesn't leave his hand out after punching.

I think with most techniques it does help to train with someone who is not afraid of being thrown or has no idea what you are going to do. You probably noticed a technique works fine the first time or so on someone but then becomes difficult.
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Old 10-02-2004, 01:08 PM   #30
L. Camejo
 
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Re: Kotegaishi weakness?

Quote:
Darin Hyde wrote:
When you do irimi senkai turn your body into uke's elbow. If you do it right you will cause enough pain to relax the wrist. Also when uke's balance is broken (he only has one foot on the ground) quickly turn back and apply the throw. Its almost impossible for anyone to resist kotegaeshi if they are off balance.
I've experienced what Darin speaks about here when we do competition style tanto randorigeiko (resistance and counters). Because of the intensity, quickness of the attacks and immediate resistance when one is touched, one often resorts to shortened movements in an attempt to get off technique, such as trying to apply kotegaeshi without getting a good kuzushi first.

However, even if one gets the arm and does not get an immediate kuzushi as Tanto (the person holding the knife) drops weight and resists, the technique still works as long as one does the proper turning motion as Darin indicated to get the kuzushi, even after the attacker has stopped moving forward after the initial tanto thrust and started resisting. In this case application of the "correct" kata form (i.e. longer movements etc.) goes a long way towards making the technique effective in resistance based freeplay.

Just my thoughts, goes back to my focus on effective kuzushi facilitating effective technique, even when things get static.
LC

Last edited by L. Camejo : 10-02-2004 at 01:11 PM.

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Old 10-02-2004, 08:27 PM   #31
Shane Mokry
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Re: Kotegaishi weakness?

Good answer Jun!

Shane
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Old 10-02-2004, 09:37 PM   #32
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Re: Kotegaishi weakness?

Craig,

From my training, I think "taking the slack out" to be very important, but also very subjective. It takes on different manifestations depending on lots of variables (especially ukes mentality). I also have tapes of Tohei Sensei performing Kote gaeshi as a younger man, but, to be honest, I don't think I have a masterful understanding of his movement to see exactly what he is doing. And since I wasn't there to experience it, I feel I need to experiment for myself.

I definitely agree with following the energy of a good kote gaeshi. You really are compelled and just do it. But, when someone doesn't have the sensitivity to feel where they should go, you should be able to nudge their Ki in a similar fashion without cranking on them.

My thought is that I only have the right to take what energy is given to me, no more.

Last edited by MikeE : 10-02-2004 at 09:41 PM.

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Old 10-02-2004, 11:23 PM   #33
kironin
 
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Re: Kotegaishi weakness?

Quote:
Michael Ellefson wrote:
, I don't think I have a masterful understanding of his movement to see exactly what he is doing. And since I wasn't there to experience it, I feel I need to experiment for myself.
I am with you on that. I couldn't agree more.

Where I spent my first my seven years or so training, experimenting for yourself was a big part of learning and I will never forget that example.

I am always looking for that feeling of leading someone into a throw, setting up the inevtiable, bringing someone through even when they try to resist by what's really hard to put in to words, by not contesting with them at any point. No collision. etc. so I don't do any cranking.

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Old 10-05-2004, 10:21 PM   #34
CNYMike
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Re: Kotegaeshi

Quote:
George S. Ledyard wrote:
.... The Philippine art of Kali has pretty much the same locking techniques that we do ....
Yes, and as a result of practicing the grappling portion of Kali, I came up with two rules of thumb that also apply to Aikido (and maybe other grappling systems):

First, off, the devil is in the details. By this I mean throws and joint lock can be very precise. If you have to get four things right to do a technique and you get three of them right, it might not work right or not at all.

Second, even if you get everything perfect, some people can resist or counter anything. The original poster's uke who can lock his wrist and counter ketegaeshi is one example. Some people can set themselves so well it is difficult or impossible to throw them. There are people who don't feel pain, so joint locks or pressure points may not produce a submission.

So the point I'm trying to make is that if something doesn't work right during training, don't get mad or frustrated. Trust me, that's the wrong way to go. Just remember that the nature of the beast is that you could miss something, or if you don't, your partner may be able to resist it. Don't sweat it, just try to learn from it.
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Old 10-07-2004, 09:03 PM   #35
Rupert Atkinson
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Purists probably won't like this but ...

When you get to the point of applying kote-gaeshi (twisting the wrist) and it doesn't work:

1 You need to re-examine how you got to that point and what you missed out or did wrong - timing / taking balance etc. - the typical answer, and the necessary one to improve your Aiki technique.

2 You also, in my opinion, need to be able to use your body against their wrist in such a way that you can FORCE uke down regardless. Uke has one way out - to fall down away from the PAIN. Otherwise, their wrist will BREAK. It breaks not because you forced it, but because they refused to fall. Once you improve your forcefull method, you will have more confidence at REAL self-defence - the main reason many beginners step into the dojo in the first place (before being bamboozeled by peace and harmony). With this method, it is important to clearly negotiate the training regimen with your partner / class. It is not a nice way to train, and interestingly, after one or two goes at it, ukes fall without resisting too much as, well, it is just too painful to keep resisting!

3 Follows on from '2' in that, if one tech fails (kote-gaeshi), it can be modified by say, quickly applying waki-gatami to break balance and then returning to kote-gaeshi (if it is kote-gaeshi that youreally want to do). In this way, you don't need to stop and start all over again everytime your tech hits a glitch. ... As they say, "How you train is how you fight."

#1 is the best way to improve your tech, and #2 & #3 are also legitimate (necessary even) ways to train, in my opinion.

Note: If you are a beginner, you should not use any force at all, and neither should uke overly resist. In the beginning, you should just learn the shapes and general movement.
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Old 10-08-2004, 02:52 AM   #36
Dazzler
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Re: Purists probably won't like this but ...

Quote:
Rupert Atkinson wrote:
When you get to the point of applying kote-gaeshi (twisting the wrist) and it doesn't work:

1 You need to re-examine how you got to that point and what you missed out or did wrong - timing / taking balance etc. - the typical answer, and the necessary one to improve your Aiki technique.

2 You also, in my opinion, need to be able to use your body against their wrist in such a way that you can FORCE uke down regardless. Uke has one way out - to fall down away from the PAIN. Otherwise, their wrist will BREAK. It breaks not because you forced it, but because they refused to fall. Once you improve your forcefull method, you will have more confidence at REAL self-defence - the main reason many beginners step into the dojo in the first place (before being bamboozeled by peace and harmony). With this method, it is important to clearly negotiate the training regimen with your partner / class. It is not a nice way to train, and interestingly, after one or two goes at it, ukes fall without resisting too much as, well, it is just too painful to keep resisting!

3 Follows on from '2' in that, if one tech fails (kote-gaeshi), it can be modified by say, quickly applying waki-gatami to break balance and then returning to kote-gaeshi (if it is kote-gaeshi that youreally want to do). In this way, you don't need to stop and start all over again everytime your tech hits a glitch. ... As they say, "How you train is how you fight."

#1 is the best way to improve your tech, and #2 & #3 are also legitimate (necessary even) ways to train, in my opinion.

Note: If you are a beginner, you should not use any force at all, and neither should uke overly resist. In the beginning, you should just learn the shapes and general movement.
Well...point 1 ...fair enough, if a technique isn't working you need to re-examine it. I can go with that.

Point 3 ...If you feel a technique failing move on to something else...yep, I'll buy that too. Developing a sensitive response to ukes movement is certainly part of what I call Aikido.

Point 2....Force uke down? Using pain compliance / threat of a wrist break?

I don't think agree one bit. If you take ukes hand away from his centre using tai sabaki, tenkan, tora fume movement or whatever floats your boat and at the same time remain centred yourself behind the point of contact you will achieve a dominant position without the primitive requirements you suggest.

Sure pain and bone breaking are effective...but call them by their correct name...jujitsu.

This is not Aikido.

NOTE: If you are a beginner you should not use any force at all. Agree...If you are an expert you should not need to.

Finally kotagaeshi uses the natural movments of the wrist which will bend upwards as will the elbow allowing a pain free kotagaeshi primarily functioning due to balance taking.

And movements against the natural movement of the joints are harmful and not necessary. Even Nikkyo, hijikimeosae and sankyo can all be practiced without need for pain.

Respectfully

D

Does this make me a purist? maybe.

If a purist is someone who feels strongly about a mish mash of ju jitsu, fighting and whatever being passed off as Aikido then, yep I'm a purist.

Proud to be a purist.

Last edited by Dazzler : 10-08-2004 at 02:57 AM.
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Old 10-08-2004, 10:49 AM   #37
George S. Ledyard
 
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Re: Purists probably won't like this but ...

Quote:
Rupert Atkinson wrote:
2 You also, in my opinion, need to be able to use your body against their wrist in such a way that you can FORCE uke down regardless. Uke has one way out - to fall down away from the PAIN. Otherwise, their wrist will BREAK. It breaks not because you forced it, but because they refused to fall.
I disagree. The kotegaeshi that will produce a wrist break is just one of the various versions as shown by the many posts above. From personal experience training with life long practitioners of Aikido and also some extremely strong and large non-Aikido people (I train a group of club security folks in which the average size in the class is about 260 or so) I can tell you that this is not the one that you want to rely on in a violent sitution.

If you have a highly pain resistant subject he will not go down and you can break his wrist which will have no effect on him and he will keep coming with the other tools he has available. I much prefer a version which will break the subject's balance without worrying about pain or wrist injury. If it is a full out combat situation I can follow up the kotegaeshi with an elbow break using my shin and execute a kick to the subject's head which he can't stop as you control his arm. But a balance break will take priority over a wrist break any day in my book.

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Old 10-08-2004, 12:20 PM   #38
Chuck Clark
 
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Re: Kotegaishi weakness?

Amen, George. I suspect that there are a number of us here that are members of the "choir" that have heard this sermon before. Unfortunately, most people can't really believe in this until they've been around someone for some time that can "do it" instead of just talk about it. Defeating structural integrity with movement is the key.

Chuck Clark
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Old 10-08-2004, 01:01 PM   #39
MaryKaye
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Re: Kotegaishi weakness?

Other peoples' experience may well be different, but I'm not big or strong, and I would much rather gamble on my ability to unbalance one of my big, strong classmates than my ability to control him with pain or break his wrist. I practice with one guy, six inches taller and maybe a hundred pounds heavier than me, and with very nice, flexible, strong joints. I can take him down pretty consistently with koteoroshi, but heaven help me if I had to actually cause him pain to do it--it takes a *lot* to cause this guy pain. Surely it can be done, but for me unbalancing is a much better bet. That's why I didn't study a harder art in the first place (well, that and a personal dislike of pain).

Some of our 8-12 year olds are quite impressive with koteoroshi: if I try to abuse my higher rank and larger size, they show off their greater skill and slam me. "Well, I've been training for six years," as the ten-year-old said to me yesterday while I picked myself up again.

Mary Kaye
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Old 10-08-2004, 01:57 PM   #40
Don_Modesto
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Re: Purists probably won't like this but ...

Quote:
George S. Ledyard wrote:
....a balance break will take priority over a wrist break any day in my book.
Yeah.

YEAH!

I like it!

Don J. Modesto
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Old 10-08-2004, 05:32 PM   #41
Charles Hill
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Re: Purists probably won't like this but ...

Quote:
George S. Ledyard wrote:
But a balance break will take priority over a wrist break any day in my book.
This is what I understood to be Rupert`s point. I think that he was saying that a wrist break is something that should be understood as well. My experience with beginners, however, has shown that they seize on the easier to understand points to the detriment of the more difficult principles. I try to show and explain the balance break and let them figure out any breakage potential on their own.

Charles Hill
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Old 10-09-2004, 03:28 PM   #42
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Re: Kotegaishi weakness?

After reading this post, I decided to test the theory by asking some of the strongest (physically) students in the dojo to try to resist kotegaeshi by locking their wrists, slowly at first, then we moved on to full speed.

I found that, so long as you stay extended and calm, instead of trying to force the wrist over, no amount of wrist locking can stop the technique. In fact, the uke reported to me that the wrist locking only made the technique more painful, making them all the more willing to lay down on the mat. That was when we decided to stop our experiment.

The whole point of Ukemi is to learn how to avoid getting hurt. Locking anything is just an invitation to get injured.

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Old 10-09-2004, 11:36 PM   #43
Rupert Atkinson
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Re: Kotegaishi weakness?

Quote:
Rob Cunningham wrote:
After reading this post, I decided to test the theory by asking some of the strongest (physically) students in the dojo to try to resist kotegaeshi by locking their wrists, slowly at first, then we moved on to full speed.

I found that, so long as you stay extended and calm, instead of trying to force the wrist over, no amount of wrist locking can stop the technique. In fact, the uke reported to me that the wrist locking only made the technique more painful, making them all the more willing to lay down on the mat. That was when we decided to stop our experiment.

The whole point of Ukemi is to learn how to avoid getting hurt. Locking anything is just an invitation to get injured.
I think the above is in accordance with my second point that I kinda guessed would draw criticism. I am not affraid to draw criticism if I see merit with something.

I have trained myself to do kote-gaeshi both the painful way and the more delicate way. Not claiming to be a master at it or anything, but practising with FORCE then moving back a tad can offer a little more insight, both to uke and tori. If you don't try it, you'll never know. I have also found that I can generally resist most Aikidoka's attempts to bend my own wrist - either with brute strength and stubbornness, or with sleight skill. Of course, the stubborn way will hurt more if tori is successful. Also, with a little practice, you can learn to bend uke's wrist in a less painfull way even though there is no attack and no moving balance to disturb, i.e, uke just standing there just clenching his wrist tightly and refusing to budge. But discovering the 'natural way' (NO PAIN) is dependent upon being able to do it the 'hard way' (PAIN) - sounds a bit daft, maybe, but that is what I have found after 20+ years.

I trained in the softer approaches for a long time, always believing it would one day work. Well, it doesn't work like that. Look at Judo - the master can play with you gently like a toy, but they did NOT learn to do that by practising gently. I now believe Aikido to be similar - if you want to be truly good at it. In analysis, it might not BE Aikido in the moment, but I think it can lead to BETTER Aikido.

What I am saying is: Aiki's 'gentle' philosophy can get in the way of 'hard' practical training.

Nothing wrong with the balance break, of course, but it works better if the resultant technique (kote-gaeshi or whatever) can be done with both finesse AND power, or the ability to add power even though you don't add power. To have that choice you need to train it.

Last edited by Rupert Atkinson : 10-09-2004 at 11:44 PM.
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Old 10-10-2004, 10:14 PM   #44
PeterR
 
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Re: Kotegaishi weakness?

Quote:
Rob Cunningham wrote:
I found that, so long as you stay extended and calm, instead of trying to force the wrist over, no amount of wrist locking can stop the technique. In fact, the uke reported to me that the wrist locking only made the technique more painful, making them all the more willing to lay down on the mat. That was when we decided to stop our experiment.
Hmm - my experience is completely opposite. Of course resistance is a skill in it's own right. I will say clearly that Kotegaeshi against a resisting (equally matched in size and strength) opponent is damm near impossible without something else (such as kuzushi) coming into play.

I also find myself agreeing with Rupert's point - at least the way I interpreted it.

Most Aikido techniques do not rely on pain compliance and it is possible to train without pain.

Most Aikido techniques can and do have a pain component which may or may not be applied at any one time - pure Aikido (whatever that is) does not exclude them. I think it is a mistake to rely on pain compliance but it is a nice option to have. I also think you have to make some effort to understand the hard training that Ueshiba M. went through before you can understand where he wanted his Aikido to go in his latter years.

I've taken serious ouch from many Aikido teachers in Japan some with serious experience and rank - not only in my style but several others. I really would hesitate to say that they are

Quote:
mish mash of ju jitsu, fighting and whatever being passed off as Aikido then
.

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Old 10-11-2004, 04:13 AM   #45
Ian Williams
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Re: Kotegaishi weakness?

Quote:
Mary Kuhner wrote:
The people who have thrown me with kotagaeshi, though, have made a clear difference from koteoroshi--they don't let me fall backwards out of the throw, but force me to go forwards over my arm. (I need to learn how to do that properly before someone breaks my wrist.)
Mary, I've seen videos of aikidokas doing that "flip over the arm" Ukemi and frankly it scares the living daylights out of me kudos for the people that can flip themselves like that, but wowee it looks scary.

With our "wrist twist". we simply "crumple" (side breakfall) in the direction of the rotation

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Old 10-11-2004, 05:15 AM   #46
Dazzler
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Re: Kotegaishi weakness?

Quote:
Peter Rehse wrote:

I've taken serious ouch from many Aikido teachers in Japan some with serious experience and rank - not only in my style but several others. I really would hesitate to say that they are 'a mish mash'.....

.
Pain exists - It can be easily realised through aikido but my view is it is not necessary. Of course used carefully it can help explain the 'practical' application of theoretical practice but if you have to rely on pain alone you are not practicing aikido.

I have no problem discussing practice with anyone . If they are able to convince me of the reasoning for the pain then fine.

I will not allow accept high ranking as reason for poor practice. I have too much respect for the teachings that I have received to ignore the alarm bells that go off when I hear or see such things.

If someone puts said mish mash in front of me I will give my views when appropriate.

If you categorise your previous instruction as such thats your choice. To me you are twisting my words to suggest a slight to your high ranking friends. Never my intention.

To refocuss on this thread I stand my view that pain is not key to kotagaeshi but the blending of movement to draw uke form his centred position into Toris centred position is.

Respectfully

D
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Old 10-11-2004, 08:38 AM   #47
L. Camejo
 
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Re: Kotegaishi weakness?

Quote:
If someone puts said mish mash in front of me I will give my views when appropriate.
Of course this is based on the assumption that you can identify a mish mash when it is placed before you by someone who has been training for a much longer period of time. I don't know what your definition of it may be, but unless one has trained very far and wide in Aikido there are a lot of things that some may look at and say "That is not Aikido", when in fact it very well might be. It's all a matter of perception imo. There are a couple techniques that I have executed in other dojos that people have not seen before in their style of Aikido and ask me the question. In my opinion it depends on what you call Aikido, but this does not mean that this is the only definition of Aikido.

Quote:
Daren Sims wrote:
To refocuss on this thread I stand my view that pain is not key to kotagaeshi but the blending of movement to draw uke form his centred position into Toris centred position is.
I agree that pain is not the only key to kotegaeshi, I tend to prefer balance breaking and it's effect on joint to body manipulation and control to get the technique working. I think I remember Shioda saying something about this regarding using the wrist to affect the knees via the torso and as a result Tori's structure, to get an effective kotegaeshi. I believe this concept is propagated in Shodokan as well, with a healthy dose of kuzushi just before doing the wrist fold.

I've always been interested on the word "blending" when used in the context of Aikido technique, it can mean many things sometimes.

In my view I always saw the movement to draw Uke into Tori's centre as a combination of correct Tai Sabaki and Kuzushi in that order. I've found that when one simply blends with the incoming atttack without taking Uke off balance the muscular resistance encountered is pretty much the same as if Tori is standing up straight and tensing his wrist as indicated earlier.

I've seen both Aikido and Jujutsu teachers make this mistake when executing the kotegaeshi where they enter to the outside and apply atemi as an elbow to the ribs by turning, just before they turn in the opposite direction to execute the actual kotegaeshi. During the strike to the ribs/back however, Uke tends to be still in balance, allowing him to just stand there and resist the technique by tensing the wrist. Balance disruption is key for kotegaeshi to work, otherwise all you have is an overly helpful and compliant Uke. May be good for first learning the technique, but terrible for applying the technique under resistant conditions.

Just my thoughts.
LC

Last edited by L. Camejo : 10-11-2004 at 08:51 AM.

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Old 10-11-2004, 11:16 AM   #48
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Kotegaishi weakness?

I've been guilty of what you just mentioned Larry. Still working on it.

Just to give some insight into the pain vs whatever 'mish mash' arguement, please see the following link. Please also note that Mochizuki Sensei was one of Ueshiba Sensei's top early students, and in fact served to 'head up' the uchideshi of the time.

http://www.e-budo.com/vbulletin/show...threadid=28259

Ron

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Old 10-11-2004, 04:32 PM   #49
L. Camejo
 
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Re: Kotegaishi weakness?

That was a very cool and educative article Ron. Thanks for the link. Reminds me of some concepts I were thinking of some time ago.

LC

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Old 10-11-2004, 06:49 PM   #50
Rupert Atkinson
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Re: Kotegaishi weakness?

Good article.
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