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Old 09-15-2008, 02:35 PM   #1
MM
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Re: How Long and In What Manner to Great Mastery?

Quote:
Jun Akiyama wrote: View Post
I am one step away from closing this thread due to personal attacks and discussions.

Address the topic -- not the person.

Shape up, folks.

-- Jun
It's your site, Jun. What you do is entirely your decision.

However, I will point out my disappointment here.

1. This is the non-aikido traditions forum. This is not what Erick learns and/or teaches.

2. A great many topics here deal directly with Dan, Mike, and Akuzawa, their experiences, their teachings, and the people who have met and/or trained with them. Erick is not on any of those lists.

3. Erick has consistently posted that he knows and/or understands what Dan or Ark or Sagawa is doing. He does so when *every* person who has trained with the above people (Dan, Mike, Ark) tells him he doesn't. He does so even when those specified people tell him he isn't understanding.

4. To close this thread, which would be a third thread, because someone from the real aikido world decides to tell those teachers in the non-aikido world what they are doing -- and gets it all wrong ... well, that action is wrong, in my opinion.

I think you are a stand up guy. I am glad I got to meet you. I always thank you for what you've done here with Aikiweb. But, I won't stand silently by when I think some action is not right. And closing this thread would be denying all of us who post here in the non-aikido forum to continue our conversation ... all because one person who doesn't have the training, doesn't have the teaching, can't do the examples given, calls people liars, and regularly brings discord into a thread. That just isn't right to me.

Thank you,
Mark
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Old 09-15-2008, 03:20 PM   #2
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Re: On Closing Threads

I have moved this post to the Announcements and Feedback forum. I will try to make some time later to address the thoughts and concerns above.

-- Jun

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Old 09-15-2008, 03:43 PM   #3
Ron Tisdale
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Re: On Closing Threads

I probably should keep my mouth shut, but hey...

Mark, I agree with your over all assessment I think, but I have two problems:

1) this is Jun's house

2) We can ignore Erick. We don't have to respond to or engage him. That is our choice...if things continually go down hill when we respond to him or engage him, we certainly can become aware of that and...

STOP.

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
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Old 09-15-2008, 04:00 PM   #4
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Re: On Closing Threads

Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote: View Post
I probably should keep my mouth shut, but hey...

Mark, I agree with your over all assessment I think, but I have two problems:

1) this is Jun's house

2) We can ignore Erick. We don't have to respond to or engage him. That is our choice...if things continually go down hill when we respond to him or engage him, we certainly can become aware of that and...

STOP.

Best,
Ron
Hi Ron,
I agree with #1. And it might be just me ... if so, please thump me upside the head. But, closing a thread because one person brings discord is like punishing a whole classroom because one person won't listen to the teacher.

2. I just talked to someone else about this. Ignoring Erick is all well and good for those of us who have had the luck to train with Dan, Mike, and Ark. We've felt the truth. There are many who haven't been as lucky. To leave Erick post on and on with nothing but disinformation, wrong information, and pointing to the wrong training would give all those people conflicting ideas about what it is we have been talking about. And personally, I am all for trying to get *everyone* a chance to train in this, have knowledge of this, and be able to get better. Leaving Erick to muddy the waters would only hinder new people, those who are on the fence, or those who don't know better yet.

All IMO, anyway,
Mark
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Old 09-15-2008, 04:03 PM   #5
TomW
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Re: On Closing Threads

Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote: View Post
I probably should keep my mouth shut, but hey...

Mark, I agree with your over all assessment I think, but I have two problems:

1) this is Jun's house

2) We can ignore Erick. We don't have to respond to or engage him. That is our choice...if things continually go down hill when we respond to him or engage him, we certainly can become aware of that and...

STOP.

Best,
Ron
Well said Ron, well said.

Tom Wharton

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Old 09-15-2008, 04:23 PM   #6
gdandscompserv
 
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Re: On Closing Threads

Use da scroll wheel!
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Old 09-15-2008, 06:00 PM   #7
TomW
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Re: On Closing Threads

Quote:
Mark Murray wrote: View Post
Hi Ron,

2. I just talked to someone else about this. Ignoring Erick is all well and good for those of us who have had the luck to train with Dan, Mike, and Ark. We've felt the truth. There are many who haven't been as lucky. To leave Erick post on and on with nothing but disinformation, wrong information, and pointing to the wrong training would give all those people conflicting ideas about what it is we have been talking about. And personally, I am all for trying to get *everyone* a chance to train in this, have knowledge of this, and be able to get better. Leaving Erick to muddy the waters would only hinder new people, those who are on the fence, or those who don't know better yet.

All IMO, anyway,
Mark
Mark, I can certainly see your point here, but I would suggest that in this case, on the forums here, the "waters" are as transparent as it gets. All the information, anecdotes, and opinions, right or wrong, are laid out side by side for everyone to read and decide for themselves what they want to spend their time on.

While the small "stream or two" of opinion may be muddying the "waters", splashing around seems to muddy the waters as much as the small stream itself. It's a small stream and getting more dilute by the day as people gain experience.

Seems to me that's about as good as it gets, FWIW.

Last edited by TomW : 09-15-2008 at 06:03 PM. Reason: me

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Old 09-15-2008, 06:39 PM   #8
Peter Goldsbury
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Re: How Long and In What Manner to Great Mastery?

As an interested bystander, who has read the thread, I think I have to comment here. My comments are directed at your post, Mark, because it is the opening post. Comments are marked PAG.

Quote:
Mark Murray wrote: View Post
It's your site, Jun. What you do is entirely your decision.

However, I will point out my disappointment here.
PAG. Yes. I believe that Jun sometimes uses the principle of kenka ryo-seibai, (equal chastisement for all sides regardless of the reason behind the conflict) and demands an end to personal attacks and sometimes I do this on E-Budo as well (especially in Bad/Baffling Budo). However, it can be seen as unfair to those who feel that they have done nothing wrong.

Quote:
Mark Murray wrote: View Post
1. This is the non-aikido traditions forum. This is not what Erick learns and/or teaches.
PAG. I do not think this matters. I read every thread that appears on this website, including this one and would post if I thought I had something to say, or that needed saying.

Quote:
Mark Murray wrote: View Post
2. A great many topics here deal directly with Dan, Mike, and Akuzawa, their experiences, their teachings, and the people who have met and/or trained with them. Erick is not on any of those lists.
PAG. Again, I do not think this matters. I have met Akuzawa Sensei once and also teach aikido students who have met him and trained with him. They want to continue and I, too, want to train with him for the same reasons that you and Rob Liberti train with Dan Harden. So I am not on any lists either, but I do not think that this is relevant to whether I post here or not.

Quote:
Mark Murray wrote: View Post
3. Erick has consistently posted that he knows and/or understands what Dan or Ark or Sagawa is doing. He does so when *every* person who has trained with the above people (Dan, Mike, Ark) tells him he doesn't. He does so even when those specified people tell him he isn't understanding.
PAG. I think there are two issues here. (1) Whether a person actually understands what Dan Ark or Sagawa is doing. (2) Who and how one tells a person that he/she does not understand. I think the second is a much more delicate issue, especially on the Internet.

Quote:
Mark Murray wrote: View Post
4. To close this thread, which would be a third thread, because someone from the real aikido world decides to tell those teachers in the non-aikido world what they are doing -- and gets it all wrong ... well, that action is wrong, in my opinion.
PAG. Well, this is an aikido forum and I personally am against setting up boundaries within the forum, especially if the boundaries relate to a rather ill-defined area of what a person 'knows' and are such as to exclude someone who does not, apparently 'know'.

Quote:
Mark Murray wrote: View Post
I think you are a stand up guy. I am glad I got to meet you. I always thank you for what you've done here with Aikiweb. But, I won't stand silently by when I think some action is not right. And closing this thread would be denying all of us who post here in the non-aikido forum to continue our conversation ... all because one person who doesn't have the training, doesn't have the teaching, can't do the examples given, calls people liars, and regularly brings discord into a thread. That just isn't right to me.
PAG. This is exactly why I decided to post this. I think the Internet imposes a certain kind of self-discipline on users and I personally believe that it is equally offensive to to tell someone publicly that he does not know what he is talking about as it is to call someone a liar. In both cases the person's good name & reputation is damaged. This, also, makes me uncomfortable. Sometimes, I feel that playground tactics are being used: the teacher is called because a child is not playing a game according to the rules set by the larger group.

Quote:
Mark Murray wrote: View Post
Thank you,
Mark
PAG. Mark, I have great respect for you and the issues you raise in threads such as these. So these comments are not meant as a criticism. Perhaps threads such as these, which deal with issues not generally known to aikidoists in general, call for more active moderating than usual, but I doubt that Jun has either the time or the stomach for this. It's his call.

Incidentally, Erick has raised a number of points over on the Transmission thread about my latest column. I have the choice whether to respond in detail, or briefly, or not at all--and leave others to judge the reasonableness of what he states.

Best regards,

PAG

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Old 09-15-2008, 07:05 PM   #9
Janet Rosen
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Re: On Closing Threads

On the mat, I am responsible for my training. My partner's training is NOT my responsibility except if it endangers me. Other people when I'm not partnered with them, not my business.

Same here. I'm responsible for my opinions and my posts. I may chose to engage in a bit of a debate (as I did in raising some questions for Mark in the Aikido and Dynamic Sphere topic). But it is not my job to prevent other people from saying things.

It IS possible in a thread to ignore a specific post and continue to have give and take with other posters.

Janet Rosen
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Old 09-15-2008, 08:00 PM   #10
rob_liberti
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Re: On Closing Threads

Telling someone they cannot post on a forum rubs me the wrong way no matter what they are saying. Sorry Mark, I understand your point, but I'm not willing to go there to that degree with you.

I am a bit sick of threads I'm posting in getting shut down. Maybe we can figure out a compromise here? Where the pointless bickering posts just pulled out to open discussions or something?

Rob
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Old 09-16-2008, 01:05 AM   #11
Ellis Amdur
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Re: On Closing Threads

Quote:
I just talked to someone else about this. Ignoring Erick is all well and good for those of us who have had the luck to train with Dan, Mike, and Ark. We've felt the truth. There are many who haven't been as lucky. To leave Erick post on and on with nothing but disinformation, wrong information, and pointing to the wrong training would give all those people conflicting ideas about what it is we have been talking about. And personally, I am all for trying to get *everyone* a chance to train in this, have knowledge of this, and be able to get better. Leaving Erick to muddy the waters would only hinder new people, those who are on the fence, or those who don't know better yet.
I do my level best to stay out of these threads, but this is aesthetically unpleasing. I personally am fascinating with internal training - but I think the world - AND martial arts - can do just fine without it. And not only that. I believe that there are myriads of people who train in pure aikido - let's say for 10 years - who could defeat in a fight someone who trained in internal training an equal amount of time. a) because there are lots of lousy teachers of this stuff b) there are even more lousy students c) a number of internal training folks are like the zen priest in Mike S.'s oft-quoted story, pushed off the veranda by Tohei because his center only "worked" under his own conditions. [can it potentially vastly enhance one's abilities - I believe that it is an avenue exactly towards the end.
Other than fighting, what's the advantage? Silly question? But so is so much of this debate. It is cool, beyond a doubt. But as far as health goes, t'ai chi guys don't seem to live any longer than wrestlers or Shaolin practitioners. Spiritual? Haven't yet met any internal martial arts saints. In fact, kick boxers were the most solid people I met when training in Japan. Psychological health? Puleeze. Internal martial arts are a petrie dish of psychological pathology. Ahh, this being American political season, where umbrage has been raised to a fine art - I didn't mean you, whoever you are, taking offense at this moment. I meant that other person.
Anyway, I personally think internal training is absolutely a wonderful study. It is becoming a consuming interest of mine. But so, for others, is pure modern aikido, without any focus on it whatsoever. In short, Mark, I dislike the "good news," in which everyone must get a chance, must be converted as much as I dislike the good news that missionaries try to give me when they come, unsolicited, to my house. You write as if people NEED to be saved from something awful - and honestly, none of this is all that important in the larger scheme of things. Adopting a child is important. Shihonage with ki or without is not. It's just interesting.
In short, when one goes beyond to derision at the benighted ignorance of the majority of the people interested in aikido, or believes that this stuff is so important that everyone must have it - and/or must be saved from the terrible form of martial arts they are now doing, it's bad taste or even worse, bad religion.
People here are adults. They do not need to be protected from the evil thoughts of Eric Mead, man-of-myriads-of words.
I remember once seeing a terrible demo of a group in Japan, and expressing outrage that the teacher could get away with conning his students the way he did. My own instructor said, "People get exactly the teacher they are looking for. If they truly wanted something else, they would go out and find it."
Best

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Old 09-16-2008, 06:27 AM   #12
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Re: On Closing Threads

Ellis,
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Old 09-16-2008, 06:58 AM   #13
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Re: On Closing Threads

Thank you Ellis for your perspective. It is an important one.

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Old 09-16-2008, 07:23 AM   #14
salim
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Re: On Closing Threads

Quote:
Jun Akiyama wrote: View Post
I have moved this post to the Announcements and Feedback forum. I will try to make some time later to address the thoughts and concerns above.

-- Jun
Juan,

We are all adults here. Perhaps your sensitivity level is too high or your ambiguous perceptions of another persons feelings towards another, is pure speculation. We should be able to express ourselves without the over ambitious policing, overly concerning yourself on the meaning of another persons comments. This website is not composed of children who need their hand held or told what can and can't be said. True, it's your site and you can do as you please, but really you will just turn more and more people away that don't have your mentality. Open mindedness is a virtue that we all can benefit from. I wonder how many people find your monitoring tactics insulting to their intellect?

Last edited by salim : 09-16-2008 at 07:38 AM.
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Old 09-16-2008, 07:31 AM   #15
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Re: On Closing Threads

Wow, Ron, Tom, Peter, Rob, Janet, and Ellis. Either I've put my foot in my mouth or it's a worthy topic.

Thank you for the posts.

Tom,
The people who do have experience still are an insignificant number to those that don't. And to read someone who doesn't and posts as if he completely understands really does create confusion.

Peter,
Ah, thank you for the principle of kenka ryo-seibai. I was ignorant of that. It is, as all can probably tell, a pet peeve of mine. It is a principle I do not hold to. Punishing others (closing the thread) who are not part of the problem (I include me as part of the problem) is not a principle I agree with.

While this is a delicate issue, I watched as Mike and Rob and Dan posted, each in their own words, and yet all three understood each other. Erick, as noted by *everyone* who trains does not understand. Sometimes things can be clear and simple. Had Erick posted in a non-authoritative voice, I don't think we'd have this thread or this discussion. However, that is not the case. He posts from authority, one in which he does not have. And that has caused issues from quite a bit of people in the non-martial forum.

As noted, Dan, Mike, and Rob were all called upon what they posted. Each was told publicly that they did not know what they were talking about. In fact, they are still being told that in other venues. But, each has demonstrated their understanding, whether online or in person(mostly). Erick has not, nor do I believe he will.

Thank you for your post and words. Although I find myself in somewhat of a differing opinion, I think your post was the one that cleared up some things for me. Thank you for that.

Janet,
Thank you for your posts in the other thread. They really are appreciated. But, just as someone is held accountable for yelling fire in a crowded theatre, so, too, are people held accountable for things posted. Yes, it is an extreme example does not fit all that well, but the general idea is the same. Or, pardon my butchering, all that is needed for evil to prosper is for good to do nothing. All that is needed for confusion is to let Erick keep posting authoritatively on things he is not an authority.

Rob,
I don't want to tell someone they can't post on a forum. I just think that when there is one person causing this much confusion and threads get closed ... the issue isn't closing threads, it isn't all the other people in the thread ... rather than patching the outward symptoms, why not address the root problem? Personally, I think if Erick had the experience and was training this, he'd probably come up with some biomechanical explanation that would be interesting.

And Ellis,
Wow, I thought I'd never say this ... but reading your post, all I can think was that you missed my point. And my intent. Sorry. I reread it multiple times, but you went in a tangent that I never thought about. Internal and fighting? spiritual? everyone getting a chance and must convert everyone? The people reading in the non-aikido forums are there for a reason, so yeah, I'd like to see them get a chance at training and understanding. So, when someone comes along who posts authoritatively on the subject and by all purposes does not have the understanding, then it irks me when threads are shut down. Now, information and discourse are no longer flowing. People don't know who to believe and closing threads only sows more confusion -- no one gets a feeling of who or why it was closed. Punishing all for one or a few. Not my cup of tea.

People are adults, yes. But if I started posting authoritatively on Araki ryu as if I were menkyo kaiden and knew everything about what was supposed to be trained, how it was trained, and biomechanically what to do to train -- and then when you decided to post, threads were shut down. Who would know what to believe? You, of course. Most people know you. Here, the situation is different and most don't have any idea about who or what to believe. Some of what is posted by Mike, Dan, Ark on what they can do *is* hard to believe. So, information is a good thing. And people usually don't just bump into the right teacher. Somewhere along the line, they've gathered information and at some point, make a choice. Getting disinformation on subjects that they don't know or understand can create bad choices.

Eh, maybe I'm wrong. But, not today. Not here. Not now. How Erick has been posting in the non-aikido forums is wrong. Closing threads when people object to Erick's posts is wrong. It is that simple. I draw the line when the many are punished for the few or one.
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Old 09-16-2008, 08:22 AM   #16
Ron Tisdale
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Re: On Closing Threads

Salim,

Jun is not Juan (who is Juan, anyway??), and I personally found your post insulting, not Jun's actions.

Best,
Ron

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Old 09-16-2008, 08:40 AM   #17
salim
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Re: On Closing Threads

Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote: View Post
Salim,

Jun is not Juan (who is Juan, anyway??), and I personally found your post insulting, not Jun's actions.

Best,
Ron
Oops, slip of the finger. Jun, sorry for the misspelled name.
We are all adults and should be able to accept constructive criticism. What's insulting about not wanting to be policed or monitoring for every little comment, that can be perceived one way or another?

Last edited by salim : 09-16-2008 at 08:47 AM. Reason: Misquote
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Old 09-16-2008, 08:45 AM   #18
Fred Little
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Re: On Closing Threads

Quote:
Mark Murray wrote: View Post
I draw the line when the many are punished for the few or one.
Mark,

It's Jun's forum and Jun gets to draw the lines.

It's really that simple.

Best,

Fred Little
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Old 09-16-2008, 08:48 AM   #19
MM
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Re: On Closing Threads

Quote:
Fred Little wrote: View Post
Mark,

It's Jun's forum and Jun gets to draw the lines.

It's really that simple.

Best,

Fred Little
Hi Fred,
Meant that personally. Not as in AikiWeb control. I agree with you there.
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Old 09-16-2008, 08:49 AM   #20
Ellis Amdur
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Re: On Closing Threads

Mark - I shan't go back-and-forth on this too much. But let's use your example. You start posting on Araki-ryu. You start posting opinions, theories and the like. I'd respond once or twice, I'm sure, in good faith. Then I'd make a statement that you didn't know what you were talking about and that I would ignore any post you made in the future, and would not participate in any dialogue generated by your posts. In fact, that's exactly what I do with a lot of people.
Returning to the subject at hand, let's say I've only peripherally heard of this internal stuff. I live in Seattle. An expert (take your pick) is coming through and I want to sign up for the seminar. Then I read one of Erick's posts.. And then, because of this, I don't even go to the seminar, either because he convinced me it's b.s. or because I'm still reading his posts, which are VERY long, and I miss the seminar time. Too bad for me. The kind of person who would be dissuaded from going for such a reason would never do the work anyway. The kind of person who would go, but would be so "confused" by the post that they couldn't perceive the evidence even when they felt it would never do the work.
If you want to discuss things with Erick or some others I can think of, that's on your dime. John McCain's statement on wrestling with pigs comes to mind, though. And finally, I've only seen Jun close threads when things get personal. If you or others go into discussions with the best intentions, and end up losing your temper arguing with someone who is, from your lights, talking nonsense, then it begs the question on another kind of "internal strength."
Best
Ellis

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Old 09-16-2008, 09:17 AM   #21
phitruong
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Re: On Closing Threads

was going to stay out of this, but my internal is weak, bad stomach really.

that phrase about "I might not agree with what you say, but will defend to death your right to say it." (something along that line). I lived under a communist government for a number of years, so I knew a bit about freedom of speech and its power to the masses. I also knew that the greatest weapon against freedom of speech isn't censorship, but it is the right to ignore. fight for your freedom and choose your right. also, freedom is a power, and power comes with responsibility.

damn! why am i keep rambling on and on? must be some internal stuffs that are not working right.
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Old 09-16-2008, 09:25 AM   #22
Janet Rosen
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Re: On Closing Threads

Mark, it simply is not your responsibility to "correct" others' posts, even in the guise of some higher responsibility to "others" who might be "confused." Like Ellis says, this is not life and death. This is flavors of m.a. and opinions.

And because I believe this, this will also be my last posting on this thread. Folks will believe/act as they will regardless.

Jun, keep up the good work.

Janet Rosen
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Old 09-16-2008, 10:01 AM   #23
MM
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Re: On Closing Threads

So, with all the idea that everyone has a right to talk and it isn't our responsibility to correct other people, why do we ban users? Why do we complain to Jun about certain people's posts? In the hopes that they will be banned? It's definitely been done here with certain people. And overlooked with other people.
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Old 09-16-2008, 10:28 AM   #24
Keith Larman
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Re: On Closing Threads

As a guy who is admin on another forum...

I think Jun is doing an *amazing* job. And what Fred said about that is the "first truth" to consider -- this is Jun's house. What Jun says goes. Nothing more needs to be said.

On the difficulties... The issue isn't whether Erick is right, wrong, or even seriously deluded. As long as Jun feels he's not strayed from the rules as Jun sees them, well, there you go.

I've also got to say that I would like to think the majority of people reading are quite capable of reading between the lines and making up their own minds, thank you very much. I tend to read all new messages here and I must admit that there are times when I want to yell at both sides of this debate "Okay, okay, we heard you the first 8000 times..." Man, at times it's like getting stuck at a family get together with that weird uncle that discovered religion late in life and just can't understand why everyone else doesn't want to discuss it with him... Ad nauseum... On and on, never ending, constantly recycling...

Sometimes the posts remind me of kids with shiny new toys. Their entire world revolves around that one shiny thing. And the perception of the value of everything around them seems to hinge on whether they can use the toy with it. It gets old...

But... Hey, post away. I *do* read them all. I *do* hope to get out and train with some of these guys to see for myself. I'd just like to say I think I have a sufficient intelligence level to reads everyones' posts without needing someone else to protect me from the awesome mind control powers of individual posters... "These are not the droids you're looking for..." Wave hand here.

In terms of insults -- I've seen some pretty nasty posts from both sides over the years. Some very heated posts. And it seems to me that if I'm reading them, well, they ain't being censored on either side. Which I'm fine with. As I said earlier, your words define you. And I'd like to think the rest of us aren't all that stupid that we can't figure it out for ourselves.

Trolling is something totally different. But being an admin for one of these things is *incredibly* difficult. Because people do start to demand that others get banned because they don't agree with them. Or they feel insulted or slighted. Or they feel they're not getting the respect they deserve. Well, my reply to most on forums I admin is to get used to it or don't post. It isn't a perfect medium. And it never will be.

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Old 09-16-2008, 10:38 AM   #25
akiy
 
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Re: On Closing Threads

Hi everyone,

I found myself busy last night with keiko and am finding myself busy this morning with work, so I don't have much time. I just wanted to say, though, that I appreciate everyone's concerns regarding the manner of moderation and expected behavior here on AikiWeb and also to say a few words before I bury myself under a few projects here at work.

I believe that communication happens most effectively through respectful dialog. As such, I do not want to cultivate a "community" where disrespectful language, tone, and manner run rampant. I believe that honest criticism, difficult topics, and even strong disagreements can be shared and addressed without employing divisive, corrosive language and without targeting the person. These unnecessary behaviors are the biggest contributors to why I end up closing threads. I have tried, from the beginning, to allow people to discuss what they want; I am more concerned about how you conduct your discussions here on AikiWeb.

Lastly, if you feel that the moderation here on AikiWeb is not to your liking, there are many other venues, online and elsewhere, for expressing your thoughts. I certainly do not want to push anyone elsewhere, but please understand that you are as free to go someplace else that will make you content as you are to stay here and respect the spirit of this website. Personally, I would prefer to have a smaller community that is respectful and conducive to a positive community than its alternatives.

I'll try to come back with more thoughts later. Until then, thank for sharing all of yours, folks.

Best,

-- Jun

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