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Old 06-23-2011, 05:13 AM   #1
Chris Knight
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Experience of Zhan-Zhuang/pile stance

I've recently taken up Zhan-Zhuang, to help compliment my martial art. Can anybody tell me their experiences of this and how this has helped change the body/mind in relation to their martial art, not particularly health changes etc. It's probably the hardest thing I've ever done to my body and can be a real struggle for me at times, to hit my time targets.
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Old 06-23-2011, 06:32 AM   #2
dps
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Re: Experience of Zhan-Zhuang/pile stance

Quote:
Chris Knight wrote: View Post
I've recently taken up Zhan-Zhuang, to help compliment my martial art. Can anybody tell me their experiences of this and how this has helped change the body/mind in relation to their martial art, not particularly health changes etc. It's probably the hardest thing I've ever done to my body and can be a real struggle for me at times, to hit my time targets.
I don't use time targets.

I note the time when I start, stand for as long as I can then note the time that I stop.

I concentrate on posture and breathing.

dps
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Old 06-23-2011, 07:10 AM   #3
Chris Knight
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Re: Experience of Zhan-Zhuang/pile stance

Quote:
I don't use time targets.

I note the time when I start, stand for as long as I can then note the time that I stop.

I concentrate on posture and breathing.

dps
what changes have you noticed david?

regards
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Old 06-23-2011, 07:44 AM   #4
dps
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Re: Experience of Zhan-Zhuang/pile stance

Quote:
Chris Knight wrote: View Post
what changes have you noticed david?

regards
I noticed that the length of time that I am able to stand is directly related to the amount of unrest or turmoil in my mind.

As in seated meditation if I can let the thoughts in my mind pass through without dwelling on them I can stand longer. Concentration on posture and breathing helps.

If I am too unsettled and can not stand for more then a few minutes I will wait until another time, I don't force it.

I do not have a time that I stand everyday. I will practice throughout the day when I an already standing.

When in public I do a modified version as to not be so obvious.

The aches and pains I have with my knees, back, shoulders and neck haven lessen and my mood is a lot calmer because of this.

dps

David
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Old 06-23-2011, 08:31 AM   #5
David Orange
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Re: Experience of Zhan-Zhuang/pile stance

Quote:
Chris Knight wrote: View Post
I've recently taken up Zhan-Zhuang, to help compliment my martial art. Can anybody tell me their experiences of this and how this has helped change the body/mind in relation to their martial art, not particularly health changes etc. It's probably the hardest thing I've ever done to my body and can be a real struggle for me at times, to hit my time targets.
Chris,

You might like to read this:

http://0101.nccdn.net/1_5/31a/008/26...rienced-2-.pdf

Note, among other important points, that he uses the mind to lead the spirit:

"I used my mind to sink my insubstantial spirit, filling my dan-tian. At the same time I used the insubstantial spirit to slightly elevate the perineal area energy accumulation (cf. Translator Note
1), which resulted in full coordination of inner and outer activity."

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.davidorangejr.com
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Old 06-23-2011, 09:06 AM   #6
phitruong
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Re: Experience of Zhan-Zhuang/pile stance

Quote:
Chris Knight wrote: View Post
I've recently taken up Zhan-Zhuang, to help compliment my martial art. Can anybody tell me their experiences of this and how this has helped change the body/mind in relation to their martial art, not particularly health changes etc. It's probably the hardest thing I've ever done to my body and can be a real struggle for me at times, to hit my time targets.
chris, i wrote this a few months back http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showpo...3&postcount=34

don't know if that helps or not. all i can say is there has been lots of pain in the practice. you might want to check into this too http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VHtfq...eedwll&list=WL that yoga roller really relieved lots of tight and painful spots.

currently, while i do standing, my inside is doing silk reeling. it's very tiring, at least for me.
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Old 06-23-2011, 09:19 AM   #7
Chris Knight
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Re: Experience of Zhan-Zhuang/pile stance

Thanks for the article David, reads and correlates exactly with my research so far.

Phi, thanks - very interesting, i'm a new starter at this, have done about 30 sessions, once a day for a month. I'm averaging 7 mins at minute, my legs can handle it well, but my arms are an absolute killer. as much as i try to relax, they just flippin hurt! lol

do you have any info on silk reeling?

kind regards
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Old 06-23-2011, 09:36 AM   #8
phitruong
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Re: Experience of Zhan-Zhuang/pile stance

Quote:
Chris Knight wrote: View Post
Phi, thanks - very interesting, i'm a new starter at this, have done about 30 sessions, once a day for a month. I'm averaging 7 mins at minute, my legs can handle it well, but my arms are an absolute killer. as much as i try to relax, they just flippin hurt! lol

do you have any info on silk reeling?
interesting. my arms don't hurt. my legs killed me.

you might want to track down this teacher http://www.wanghaijun.com/ he can teach you both and then some.
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Old 06-23-2011, 10:06 AM   #9
Janet Rosen
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Re: Experience of Zhan-Zhuang/pile stance

I've been doing the exercise as Phi describes it in his above referenced link, and 5 or 6 minutes is all I can do but I find it very helpful in terms of posture, center, weighting and groundpath awareness - it fits in great w/ silk reeling.

Just yesterday I checked out a once/weekly noontime qi gong class a two minute walk from my workplace, and was delighted to find it a very good complement to the above - the movements and exercises lend themselves to focus on those issues - so I'm now assured one long session per week in addition to my solo work.

Janet Rosen
http://www.zanshinart.com
"peace will enter when hate is gone"--percy mayfield
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Old 06-23-2011, 03:35 PM   #10
BWells
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Re: Experience of Zhan-Zhuang/pile stance

One comment, if your arms are hurting, you are holding the posture for 2 long a period of time. Zhan-Zhuang is used to learn to relax and if you are in pain that is one thing you are not learning. Suggest that when your arms hurt put your hands down. Build up to this slowly, I shoot for 20- 40 minutes a day at most. From what I have read, the teachers of Yi Quan in China recommend not more than 40 minutes a standing session at most.
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Old 06-24-2011, 09:54 AM   #11
tombuchanan
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Re: Experience of Zhan-Zhuang/pile stance

Quote:
I've recently taken up Zhan-Zhuang, to help compliment my martial art. Can anybody tell me their experiences of this and how this has helped change the body/mind in relation to their martial art, not particularly health changes etc. It's probably the hardest thing I've ever done to my body and can be a real struggle for me at times, to hit my time targets.
- the first thing I noticed was a highly audible, pronounced cracking and popping of my joints. over time this lead to a significant increase in my range of motion and later, more speed

- my breathing started to drop, increasing my stamina and endurance

- a lot of shaking at different times

- an awareness of seemingly friction-less paths or grooves within my body that don't really provide for increased strength, but rather continuous strength

- a better understanding of the bone to bone (tendon/soft tissue) connections, leading to increased static strength

- ridiculous amounts of saliva, not sure how this helps

- the muscles are forced into fatigue, making relaxation a must

that's all I can put together right now, but I also remember a large number of particularly 'odd' sensations that I never found much of an explanation for; would be curious to hear other's experiences
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Old 06-24-2011, 06:23 PM   #12
JW
 
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Re: Experience of Zhan-Zhuang/pile stance

I was at a loss about how I could answer the OP question. Standing itself isn't so much something that has changed my art. But the reason I stand is a change in point of view, and that change in point of view has changed everything about my art.
But anyway this gem kicked off something for me:
Quote:
Tom Buchanan wrote: View Post
- an awareness of seemingly friction-less paths or grooves within my body that don't really provide for increased strength, but rather continuous strength
Nicely said!
For me, any position I take is defined by those grooves (I call them rails, as in railroad). I move from one position to another by riding the rails. That's a big change in how to move.

The other big change associated with standing for me is no surprise-- the way I hold myself is not by struggle but by stacking. The stacking and the rails are related.
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Old 06-27-2011, 07:11 AM   #13
Chris Knight
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Re: Experience of Zhan-Zhuang/pile stance

Quote:
One comment, if your arms are hurting, you are holding the posture for 2 long a period of time. Zhan-Zhuang is used to learn to relax and if you are in pain that is one thing you are not learning. Suggest that when your arms hurt put your hands down. Build up to this slowly, I shoot for 20- 40 minutes a day at most. From what I have read, the teachers of Yi Quan in China recommend not more than 40 minutes a standing session at most.
thanks i'll that a try. I have read that you should try to ignore the muscle pain (mainly in my shoulders) and that this will lessen after battling through the shaking and muscle fatigue. I have been building up but have got stuck around the 7 minute mark at the moment.

Quote:
I was at a loss about how I could answer the OP question. Standing itself isn't so much something that has changed my art. But the reason I stand is a change in point of view, and that change in point of view has changed everything about my art.
its been more than a change in point of view for myself. The standing practice so far has enabled some postural reliagnments to start occuring, with muscles kicking in my back I didn't know I had. I have this weird sensation in my arms, they seemingly feel quite a lot stronger, but not through the main muscles. My legs are turning rock solid, and my root connection has increased ten fold. I can 'feel the floor' and my feet have a much better connection now. I feel more stable around my centre, and have become much more aware of posture, dantien, and correct breathing cycles. My shoulders have started to round more, and my sphere is beginning to make an inkling of sense. Still can't transmit power from the floor past my lower back yet but think that may take a while....

I think this can relate to any martial art quite tremendously given time and awareness
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Old 06-27-2011, 10:22 AM   #14
phitruong
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Re: Experience of Zhan-Zhuang/pile stance

Quote:
Chris Knight wrote: View Post
thanks i'll that a try. I have read that you should try to ignore the muscle pain (mainly in my shoulders) and that this will lessen after battling through the shaking and muscle fatigue. I have been building up but have got stuck around the 7 minute mark at the moment.
don't worry about holding up your arms at the beginning. it is more important to have someone to push you (light push, very light) in various directions. don't worry the arms for awhile.

a lot of these things would work better with a few minutes of hand-on showing. it takes too much to describe with words and some part you just can't describe to give a good understanding. you heard folks mentioned "It has to be felt" (IHTBF). once two people have crossed hands and established the baseline through physical means, then it's somewhat easier discuss with words. similar to a kiss. once two person kissed, they shared a mutual physical experience, then they can describe it in words, but not before. not that i want to kiss you, mind you, because my wife would have me hang, shot and quartered.
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Old 06-27-2011, 10:57 AM   #15
JW
 
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Re: Experience of Zhan-Zhuang/pile stance

"rock solid" legs sounds stiff, be careful. Also how did you measure that your root connection increased 10-fold? Are you referring to partner-push exercises to check progress?
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Old 06-29-2011, 06:39 AM   #16
Chris Knight
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Re: Experience of Zhan-Zhuang/pile stance

Quote:
a lot of these things would work better with a few minutes of hand-on showing. it takes too much to describe with words and some part you just can't describe to give a good understanding. you heard folks mentioned "It has to be felt" (IHTBF). once two people have crossed hands and established the baseline through physical means, then it's somewhat easier discuss with words. similar to a kiss. once two person kissed, they shared a mutual physical experience, then they can describe it in words, but not before. not that i want to kiss you, mind you, because my wife would have me hang, shot and quartered.
mine two...
i have started to work with basic push tests to try and enbed some ground paths whilst in stance. It isn't easy for me at the minute, but nothing ever is at first I suppose

Quote:
rock solid" legs sounds stiff, be careful. Also how did you measure that your root connection increased 10-fold? Are you referring to partner-push exercises to check progress?
by rock solid, I mean my leg muscle mass has increased quite a lot over the last 12 months through intense core training, but I've noticed a difference even since I've started Zhan Zuang. My legs aren't fixed rigid and I've been practicing movement via circle walking etc. In relation to root connection, I mean that before I started this training, I thought I had some sort of sensitivity to the floor, but now my feet feel much more rooted up through my knees and thighs to my lower back. My weight has dropped to my lower half of my body more so, therefore feeling much more centred.
I've done very basic push exercies but am still in the first stages of this
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