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Old 03-08-2007, 09:16 PM   #1
Bill Danosky
 
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What's your martial-to-art ratio?

How much "martial" and how much "art" do you like in your Aikido practice? 60/40? 40/60?

I'm kinda 70/30 martial, but I'm wondering if I'm in the minority? I think practice should be tough and I don't mind the occasional bruise or mat burn. I like the exertion level to be 'brisk'.

I'm not looking for a Senshusei experience, but students who endure find an extra value in their training, IMHO.

Different Aikido styles, dojos and individual aikidoka seem to vary quite a bit on this. What's your ratio?
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Old 03-08-2007, 09:37 PM   #2
akiy
 
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Re: What's your martial-to-art ratio?

Not that it's anything definitive, but here's the results of a poll I took a while back:

In your opinion, what ratio of "martial" and "art" is aikido? - 5/15/2004
http://www.aikiweb.com/polls/results.html?poll_id=219

-- Jun

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Old 03-08-2007, 09:45 PM   #3
Edward
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Re: What's your martial-to-art ratio?

I think we should distinguish here between martial and hard training. I have noticed that students in art oriented dojos get more physically fit than in martial dojos due to the nature of training. Martial training tends to be more technical and static, while arty training gives a lot of aerobic exercice with all these large turning movements and resulting Ukemi.
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Old 03-08-2007, 09:57 PM   #4
MikeLogan
 
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Re: What's your martial-to-art ratio?

I'm not sure what you could mean by the art part of the ratio. If one is 80::20 martial::art, then what is that 30% art comprised of? The way one bows, the overemphasized etiquette in front of strangers?

A martial art is: an art, that is martial. One noun, described by one adjective. Have I been missing something in all my time reading here? The origination of the term, I imagine, one of several categorizations that suffer much from loss in translation.

One might argue that my particularity in language may peg me more heavy on the art side, but, one might also argue that my particularity may translate (albeit to varying degrees, such as with folding my laundry) into each of my projections.

Are you asking whether someone likes it hard or soft? meaty, or fruity? 'effective' or 'therapeutic'? spartan, or abundant?

Anyhow, it's official, happy friday everyone, well, for everyone on the east coast, haha, non-EST suckers


editting to say that Edward has just illustrated my point.

Bill says he is more martial because he prefers a harder workout; Edward claims the distinction is that there is martial training, and then there is hard training.

michael.

Last edited by MikeLogan : 03-08-2007 at 10:02 PM.
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Old 03-08-2007, 10:20 PM   #5
Bill Danosky
 
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Re: What's your martial-to-art ratio?

By "art" I mean when we, as Uke, cooperate with Shite so we can perceive the natural forces at work and celebrate the beauty of the traditions, etc. I do enjoy the formality of the dojo I am a member of.

By "martial" I mean when we practice effective, powerful self defense techniques that make me smile when I receive the ukemi.
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Old 03-08-2007, 10:39 PM   #6
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Re: What's your martial-to-art ratio?

See, I consider ukemi just another aspect of a martial sphere. Ukemi is making the best of a bad situation. An uke in Aikido training would not want to ultimately hurt nage.
As a skill set in it's own right, ukemi as I've been told is just trying to get out of something coming your way in a hurry, so you can have a chance to return the favor.
Can one begin to absorb kaeshi waza, and subsequently henka waza without being experienced in getting into the situation that would call for reversals to begin with?

The song that never ends regarding effectiveness and cooperative ukes has plenty of other threads giving it attention
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Old 03-09-2007, 02:50 AM   #7
Amir Krause
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Re: What's your martial-to-art ratio?

Quote:
Bill Danosky wrote: View Post
By "art" I mean when we, as Uke, cooperate with Shite so we can perceive the natural forces at work and celebrate the beauty of the traditions, etc. I do enjoy the formality of the dojo I am a member of.

By "martial" I mean when we practice effective, powerful self defense techniques that make me smile when I receive the ukemi.
During my first few years of learning, I used to make similar distinctions. At that time, I noticed my Sensei had a tendency to change the ratio of "martial"/"art" over time, one half year the emphasis was on one aspect and the other was less emphasized, and the other the second (not that exact).

As I progressed in learning, I started to reveal the above distinction was totally wrong. The "art" part of the training, and being Uke in it, is possibly even more important to my learning "martially effective Aikido" then the "martial" part. Both are two sides of the same coin, and a good teacher has to find the correct balance for his students.
Looking from a methodical perspective. The "martial" part had mostly to do with learning to perform techniques correctly, overcoming resistance and (a very important aspect) not being afraid.
The "art" part had to do with using the whole body, and feeling the path of least resistance. A smoother movement, and better perceptions makes one look more of an artist, then a real fighter.

But, when practicing Randori, or having a friendly spar with other M.A. students. I swiftly learned that once one has the will, and the technique mechanics are beyond some rudimentary level, the "art" part of things is often as important for the effectiveness, and practicing it improves my level much more.

Effectiveness is the correct balance of strong and bending, perceptive/attentive and determined. Knowing when to press your positional advantage and when to give in to pressure and create a better opportunity.

In my mind, ideal Aikido looks effortless and pseudo non-resistance, with a non-cooperating attacker who tries everything in his power against you. Creating harmony from chaos. Today, I can sometimes achieve this in Randori with beginner students who mistake Randori to be a fighting exercise. In some more rare occasions, it happens during Randori of us "more advanced students" finding a perfect opportunity to catch one another in a smooth counter\trap.

Amir
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Old 03-09-2007, 05:39 AM   #8
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Re: What's your martial-to-art ratio?

I just refuse to believe art means what most martial artists think it means. I simply think it means craft, like in the art of war. Its not that there is war, and then flowery movements. Its about the craft of waging war.I think the whole art thing was really created by people who wanted to get more students with less physical contact. See 720 degree triple jump side kicks are about the art, what you guys do is just fighting ;-)

So I guess I'm 100% martial 0% art.

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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Old 03-09-2007, 06:49 AM   #9
crbateman
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Re: What's your martial-to-art ratio?

I'm not sure that it can be explained with math. Is an artist who also has a gun any less of an artist?
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Old 03-09-2007, 07:27 AM   #10
Roman Kremianski
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Re: What's your martial-to-art ratio?

Does anyone have a step-by-step analysis on how exactly they arrive at what is martial and what is art? You could spend hours arguing how just doing tenkan in a circle on your own is as martial as it gets...
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Old 03-09-2007, 07:53 AM   #11
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Re: What's your martial-to-art ratio?

Depends on tori, uke, the situation, the age of your partner, the needs of the students, my perceived needs. So many answers to that question. I prefer to see myself as an artist but I'm sure that is dillusional at best. In my mind, being martial implies an active engagement in some type of warfare. The training styles for active combat and for the dissemination of the various martial arts are different I think. What Kevin is doing I think leans toward the martial side. What most traditional dojos (flame retardent on) do leans toward the art side.
As far as specifics in the way I present techniques; I like to be able to demonstrate them in different ways. Budo can manifest itself through people in marvelous ways. As much as I enjoy technique with a highly (flame retardent on) resistive uke, I equally enjoy technique with a fully cooperative uke. I get great satisfaction out of both.
ARGH!
I am unable to answer your question.
Ark????
All Knowing Ark?????
As the Ark of the Aikido Covenant, I call upon you to answer this question.
A Fan.
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Old 03-09-2007, 08:24 AM   #12
Paul Sanderson-Cimino
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Re: What's your martial-to-art ratio?

I believe this arises from a misunderstanding of "art". In an attempt to translate words like "jutsu", English uses the word "art", which literally refers to any skill or ability:

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/art

For example, an "artifact". In modern colloquial usage, it almost always refers to fine art, or the production of ornamental things for display, but the most literal and "core" meaning is more like "proficiency".

That said, I think it's a reasonable question...just wanted to emphasize that it's not what the people who started saying "martial art" had in mind.
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Old 03-09-2007, 08:39 AM   #13
Roman Kremianski
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Re: What's your martial-to-art ratio?

So Aikido is not actually like painting a picture?

I was gonna mention that same thing...people refer to "art" like an aesthetic thing that is pleasing to look at, when really it's just a so-so translation of jutsu or do, which probably mean a whole bunch of other things.

Sorry, just the babblings of a graphic designer.
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Old 03-09-2007, 10:50 AM   #14
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Re: What's your martial-to-art ratio?

My teachings place a consistent emphasis on the training of effective fighting technique. As long as I teach a martial art, I have a responsibility to my students to prepare them to use physical aikido effectiviely. I may choose to select individual classes or students to challenge with advanced concepts or principles that incorporate the budo of aikido. Internalizing budo is not something that I feel is my place to teach, but rather the student's place to learn through training.

To use a favorite analogy of mine, "Picaso did not learn to become an artist. Picaso learned to paint, he became an artist by painting."
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Old 03-09-2007, 11:44 AM   #15
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: What's your martial-to-art ratio?

Interesting topic.

I don't really see the distinction. I trained for many years in what I considered to be a very traditional ASU dojo...I would say that it is a DO for sure.

I train soldiers over here in Germany for the express purpose of learning to fight correctly and instill the warrior spirit in them.

Training methodologies differ a little, some of the things we focus on differ a little, we don't bow, wear hakama, or even gi s most of the time.

However, the fundamentals are still pretty much the same I have found.

I think it is possible for two students to go to the exact same class and have entirely two different experiences. One might say it is a DO and art. Another might say it is SU.

I used to think there was a big distinction in how you should train SU and DO. How I learned to do Kotegaeshi in Aikijitsu was much difference in how I learned it in Aikido, so I thought the distinction to be important.

What I have found though is that what I learned in both places needed to be taught to understand the range of the dynamic. At least in my aikido dojo, I thought it was taught more correctly as we studied the complete range of motion associated with kotegaeshi. if you understand the range, you are free to stop it anywhere along that path that makes sense in reality.

(I did study some pretty poor aikijitsu mind you!).

So, I think studied correctly that there really is no distinction to be made, or at least should not be made! If there is a distinction to be made, then it is made not be the art being practiced, but by the person that percieves it.

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Old 03-09-2007, 01:58 PM   #16
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Re: What's your martial-to-art ratio?

What I interpreted from the question was effective self defense training vs the "dance". So I would say for me 95% martial, 5% art.

At the dodjo I am in, we don't dance, we are there to learn to defend ourselves. I believe Craig Dunn on Steven Seagal's Path Beyond Thought said Make your Aikido practical, then play with it, not the other way around. I agree with that statement. That is why I chose the dojo I am at.

As far as the role of the Uke (at my dojo), they are expected to give a realistic attack (i.e. will actually hit the nage and will retract their fist, not leave it extended so the nage can have an easy target) and expose any weaknesses/flaws in the nage's technique (once they know what they are doing) and, of course, survive the technique.

I do not think there is anything wrong with the dance style aikido as long as the students are aware of that fact. I cringe when I visit another dojo that claims to teach an effective self defense yet only practice at turtle speed and do techniques that leave themselves vulnerable to attack.
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Old 03-09-2007, 02:00 PM   #17
Paul Sanderson-Cimino
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Re: What's your martial-to-art ratio?

Quote:
Jon Reading wrote: View Post
To use a favorite analogy of mine, "Picaso did not learn to become an artist. Picaso learned to paint, he became an artist by painting."
I like that quote, Jon!
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Old 03-09-2007, 02:11 PM   #18
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Re: What's your martial-to-art ratio?

Martial: 100%
Art: 0% (you have obviously never seen me train)

Martial: 100%
Do/way: 100%
They are the same to me.

Lynn Seiser PhD
Yondan Aikido & FMA/JKD
We do not rise to the level of our expectations, but fall to the level of our training. Train well. KWATZ!
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Old 03-09-2007, 03:39 PM   #19
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Re: What's your martial-to-art ratio?

5% worried about being attacked by baddies

95% health

A secret of internal strength?:
"Let your weight from the crotch area BE in his hands."
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Old 03-09-2007, 09:00 PM   #20
Bill Danosky
 
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Re: What's your martial-to-art ratio?

Thanks, Kevin. A couple of the comments were good, but I thought this was the best thing that was said: "Watch what people are cynical about, and one can often discover what they lack." MG George S. Patton.

Oh, what a giveaway- I must be missing sparring again!
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Old 03-10-2007, 09:31 AM   #21
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Re: What's your martial-to-art ratio?

Why can't it just be it be 100% martial as well as 100% art. I'm sorry but I really see no distinction between the two and I see no reason why you would want to waste time trying to.

Martial Art.
Perhaps a better word should have been invented to illustrate the two being one in the same.... Say, Mart? The first four letters are from martial and the last three letters are art? Overlaps? No? You're not seeing it?

You can't have the word MARTIAL with out the word ART!

mARTial.

Okay I'm going back to bed.

"Fighting for peace is like screwing for virginity"
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Old 03-10-2007, 11:24 AM   #22
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Re: What's your martial-to-art ratio?

Quote:
Don Magee wrote: View Post
I simply think it means craft, like in the art of war. Its not that there is war, and then flowery movements. Its about the craft of waging war.
I agree with Don, and would add that an artist is someone who takes a craft and uses their own imagination and taste to create their own style of practicing the craft.

David
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Old 03-10-2007, 07:17 PM   #23
Bill Danosky
 
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Re: What's your martial-to-art ratio?

Quote:
Nathan Gidney wrote: View Post
Why can't it just be it be 100% martial as well as 100% art.
'Cause that's TWO hundred percent, Nathan.
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Old 03-11-2007, 04:15 AM   #24
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Re: What's your martial-to-art ratio?

doesn't aligning KI work this way though Bill?

I mean if you are going 100% and uke is going at 100%...and you blend and use uke's KI against him...doesn't it become aligned and additive to yours..so it would be equal to like...150%?

I mean you couldn't take all his KI...if you did...well he'd be dead as KI is also equal to life force energy. ya have to leave him SOMETHING!

So...there is the ART. knowing just how much to take from uke without killing him.



I love with math and statistics meet with martial arts...sooo, soo, much potential!

have a nice day all!

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Old 03-11-2007, 08:32 AM   #25
Bill Danosky
 
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Re: What's your martial-to-art ratio?

Sort of, "I'll get you, and your little Ki, too"?
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